165-166 / 240 yr gap in Judaism

[Cherith]

Well, I took Eli's advice and was reading the counter-missionary opinion of Daniel 9 (http://messiahtruth.com/daniel9.html). There is a whole lot in that article that Xians wouldn't have a problem with, but I must confess I was flabbergasted with his chronology (which I'm still wading through). Which brings me to this thread.

In his article he uses the "Jewish Calendar" - relying on Seder 'Olam Rabbah - which has a 165-166 yr discrepancy (some say even a 240 yr gap - see Israel Today, May 1999, "The Mystery of the 240 Missing Years") with regards to historical events. The Seder 'Olam's authorship is ascribed to Jose b. Halafta who died in 160 A.D. (Halafta also said that the destruction of the Second Temple occurred in 68 A.D. instead of 70 A.D.! So much for his reliability...)

Now I understand why Judaism would want to have a different reckoning of time/events, but what I don't understand is how they can continue to account for the discrepancy in time given the virtual unanimity of historians?

Can anyone help to clue me in?

[kofh2u]

Well, I took Eli's advice and was reading the counter-missionary opinion of Daniel 9 (http://messiahtruth.com/daniel9.html). There is a whole lot in that article that Xians wouldn't have a problem with, but I must confess I was flabbergasted with his chronology (which I'm still wading through). Which brings me to this thread.

In his article he uses the "Jewish Calendar" - relying on Seder 'Olam Rabbah - which has a 165-166 yr discrepancy (some say even a 240 yr gap - see Israel Today, May 1999, "The Mystery of the 240 Missing Years") with regards to historical events. The Seder 'Olam's authorship is ascribed to Jose b. Halafta who died in 160 A.D. (Halafta also said that the destruction of the Second Temple occurred in 68 A.D. instead of 70 A.D.! So much for his reliability...)

Now I understand why Judaism would want to have a different reckoning of time/events, but what I don't understand is how they can continue to account for the discrepancy in time given the virtual unanimity of historians?

Can anyone help to clue me in?


I don't understand whether you don't understand what it is that they say which in their opinion does account for this, or... is it your meaning that one must wonder, in light of the evidence, how they can remain so fundamental obstinate in holding to an obvious miscalculation and hence totally unsupportable interpretation.


"what I don't understand is how they can continue to account for the discrepancy in time given the virtual unanimity of historians?"

[Cherith]

Both Kofh2u. I don't understand how their "opinion does account for this." AND I wonder "how they can remain so fundamental[ly] obstinate in holding to an OBVIOUS miscalculation and hence TOTALLY UNSUPPORTABLE interpretation."

For instance, the author has the following chart:


Secular Kings List[b]Years[b]Jewish Kings List[b]Years
~~[break]Darius the Mede[break]1
Cyrus (Koresh) 559-529[break]30[break]Cyrus the Persian[break]3
Cambyses 529-522[break]7[break]Ahashverosh[break]15
Smerdis 522[break]1[break]Darius the Persian/Artaxerxes[break]33
Darius the Great (Daryavesh) 522-486[break]36[break]~[break]~
Xerxes I (Ahashverosh) 486-465[break]21[break]~[break]~
Artaxerxes I 465-424[break]41[break]~[break]~
Xerxes II 424-423[break]1[break]~[break]~
Darius II 423-404[break]19[break]~[break]~
Artaxerxes II 404-358[break]46[break]~[break]~

Artaxerxes III 358-338[break]20[break]~[break]~
Arses 338-336[break]2[break]~[break]~
Darius III 336-330[break]6[break]~[break]~
[b]Total Years230[break][b]Total Years[break]52

He then goes into this thing about the Egyptian king list by the priest Manetho (even scanning in the cartouches) and then saying "there are no other sets of cartouches for any Persian pharaoh’s in the record after Darius, although modern Egyptologists do list the remaining “Persian kings” into modern king lists." (emphasis mine)

It should be noted that NØ extant copy of Manetho’s original manuscript has yet been found. It should also be pointed out that immediately after his statement that "there are no other sets of cartouches for any Persian pharaoh’s in the record after Darius" that he includes the scan of Xerxes and Artaxerxes I's cartouches!

He also didn't cite his source for the cartouches that he scanned, but they look exactly like the ones in my copy of Peter A. Clayton's "Chronicle of the Pharaohs" (right down to the font type! ;) which lists Dynasty 27 (First Persian Period) which lasted from 525-404 as containing: Cambyses II (525-522), Darius I (521-486), Xerxes (485-465), Artaxerxes I (465-424), Darius II (423-405), Artaxerxes II (405-359). It then skips over several non-Persians who became Pharaoh and picks up with Dynasty 31 (Second Persian Period) which lasted from 343-332: Artaxerxes III (343-338), Arses (338-336), and Darius III (336-332). I must also say that there IS a cartouche for Darius III - the same Darius that fell to Alexander the Great.

He then has a chart for the chronology of the Babylonian exile in which he lists Nebuchadnezzar (3319-3363 AM), his son Evil-Merodach (3363-3386 AM), and then Belshazzar (3386-3390 AM) compressing Merodach's reign with that of his brother-in-law Neriglissar, who takes power by assassination and rules from 560-556 B.C./3365-3369 A.M., and Nabonidus, Belshazzar's father, who ruled from 556-539 B.C./3369-3386 A.M. Belshazzar was co-regent. But Cyrus the Great begun his reign - although not over Jerusalem - in 559 B.C./3366 A.M and reigned until 530 B.C./3395 A.M., followed as shown above by Cambyses II, Smerdis (another son of Cyrus the Great), Darius I (a cousin who married the dau of Cyrus the Great), Xerxes (their son), Artaxerxes I, Darius II, Artaxerxes II, Artaxerxes III, Arses, and Darius III who was reigning when Alexander the Great came on the scene. All of these last Persian kings the author omits(!) while having the authorization to complete the temple falling under Ahasuerus' (Xerxes) reign in 483 B.C. (3442 AM) who he just previously stated had ordered a stop to the completion!

Is anyone else confused yet?

[Cherith]

He then goes into this thing about the Egyptian king list by the priest Manetho (even scanning in the cartouches) and then saying "there are no other sets of cartouches for any Persian pharaoh’s in the record after Darius, although modern Egyptologists DO list the remaining “Persian kings” into modern king lists." (emphasis mine)

It should be noted that NØ extant copy of Manetho’s original manuscript has yet been found. It should also be pointed out that immediately after his statement that "there are no other sets of cartouches for any Persian pharaoh’s in the record after Darius" that he includes the scan of Xerxes and Artaxerxes I's cartouches!

He also didn't cite his source for the cartouches that he scanned, but they look exactly like the ones in my copy of Peter A. Clayton's "Chronicle of the Pharaohs" (right down to the font type! ;) which lists Dynasty 27 (First Persian Period) which lasted from 525-404 as containing: Cambyses II (525-522), Darius I (521-486), Xerxes (485-465), Artaxerxes I (465-424), Darius II (423-405), Artaxerxes II (405-359). It then skips over several non-Persians who became Pharaoh and picks up with Dynasty 31 (Second Persian Period) which lasted from 343-332: Artaxerxes III (343-338), Arses (338-336), and Darius III (336-332). I must also say that there IS a cartouche for Darius III - the same Darius that fell to Alexander the Great.

He then has a chart for the chronology of the Babylonian exile in which he lists Nebuchadnezzar (3319-3363 AM), his son Evil-Merodach (3363-3386 AM), and then Belshazzar (3386-3390 AM) compressing Merodach's reign with that of his brother-in-law Neriglissar, who takes power by assassination and rules from 560-556 B.C./3365-3369 A.M., and Nabonidus, Belshazzar's father, who ruled from 556-539 B.C./3369-3386 A.M. Belshazzar was co-regent. But Cyrus the Great begun his reign - although not over Jerusalem - in 559 B.C./3366 A.M and reigned until 530 B.C./3395 A.M., followed as shown above by Cambyses II, Smerdis (another son of Cyrus the Great), Darius I (a cousin who married the dau of Cyrus the Great), Xerxes (their son), Artaxerxes I, Darius II, Artaxerxes II, Artaxerxes III, Arses, and Darius III who was reigning when Alexander the Great came on the scene. All of these last Persian kings the author omits(!) while having the authorization to complete the temple falling under Ahasuerus' (Xerxes) reign in 483 B.C. (3442 AM) who he just previously stated had ordered a stop to the completion!

Is anyone else confused yet?

[Timothy Leary]

This isn't a subject I care about much, since I don't use the Rabbinical Calender, but there is a Rabbi on Paltalk who can explain this one. Rabbi Dov, IIRC. But if you look for him, you'll need to be calm and patient, and not try to convince him that Jesus is the Messiah, or else he won't listen to ya.

[Cherith]

This isn't a subject I care about much, since I don't use the Rabbinical Calender, but there is a Rabbi on Paltalk who can explain this one. Rabbi Dov, IIRC. But if you look for him, you'll need to be calm and patient, and not try to convince him that Jesus is the Messiah, or else he won't listen to ya.

Thanks Yoshi, I don't feel the need to try and convince EVERYONE that Jesus is the Messiah (only when it comes up :wink: - like when Jews say that they are the biological descendants of Abraham, still in covenant, etc.). I had gone into a Jewish room recently - just to listen - and was brutally confronted, attacked and bounced from the room.

But your mention of the "Rabbinical Calendar" brings up another point I was pondering regarding Eli's link. I initially thought that I could agree with the writer of the article about the absurdity of a 360-"prophetic"-day calendar, but then I got to thinking about how long the ancient Hebrew calendar was and how it was calculated. (And you could probably contribute greatly to my understanding.) It seems from my research that the original Hebrew calendar was based SOLELY on the observance of the new moon - i.e. 354 day avg. - and that the addition of an extra month (ve-Adar or Adar II) - i.e. 30 days - ever so many years was a later addition in order to keep Passover in the Spring. So doesn't all of this point to the fact that no one knows exactly what kind of calendar the ancient Hebrews followed?

I also saw something about the length of the Flood and it seemed to indicate that the months were 30 days long - which WOULD indicate a 360-day year...

--C

[Timothy Leary]

1) On Paltalk, if you're talking about the Torah Nation room, or it's former name of Jesus ain't Judaism, everyone gets "vetted." We get a lot of missionaries who are deceptive (i'm not saying that most are), and who make up wierd stuff before they try to convert us. Since the problems began, most Christians haven't been allowed in those rooms.

2) Actually, the extra month is biblical. It's all depending on if the Aviv is found in time. Nehemia Gordon, on the Karaite Korner, writes the following:

The Biblical year begins with the first New Moon after the barley in Israel reaches the stage in its ripeness called Abib. The period between one year and the next is either 12 or 13 lunar months. Because of this, it is important to check the state of the Barley crops at the end of the 12th month. If the barley is Abib at this time, then the following New Moon is Hodesh Ha-Aviv ("New Moon of the Abib"). If the barley is still immature, we must wait another month and then check the barley again at the end of the 13th month.

The "average" cycle for the moon is 28 days. If we figure that a year is usually 12 months, we come up with an average of 336 days a year. (28x12=336). On leap years, the average would be 364. But these "averages" can be wrong a lot.

We do know what type of Calender ancient Jewry used. It's in the Bible. Months are lunar, and the Aviv determines new years. This is agreed upon in Rabbinical sources as well.

[Cherith]

Actually, the extra month is biblical. It's all depending on if the Aviv is found in time. ...The "average" cycle for the moon is 28 days. If we figure that a year is usually 12 months, we come up with an average of 336 days a year. (28x12=336). On leap years, the average would be 364. But these "averages" can be wrong a lot.

We do know what type of Calender ancient Jewry used. It's in the Bible. Months are lunar, and the Aviv determines new years. This is agreed upon in Rabbinical sources as well.

O.K. Yosh, I'll give you the opportunity to prove yourself, to prove that you TRULY believe in Sola Scriptura. Show me from the Bible that there are 12 months. Name them and provide references. Next show me from the Bible where it says how many days are in any given month. Again providing the references. And finally show me from the Bible that you are to insert another whole "month" if the barley isn't ripe and provide your reference for that. (Because I see a reference to twelve months in the Bible, but not a single reference to a thirteenth month! Surely there was a "leap year" somewhere in ancient Biblical history!?!)

I'll even help you get started.

In the ANE (http://www.infoplease.com/ipd/A0550244.html) any people group centered around an important temple developed their own, separate calendars. It wasn't until Hammurabi that the Babylonian month names begin to replace these local menologies (http://www.infoplease.com/ipd/A0534083.html). One would be hard pressed to discover any official month names used continually by the ancient Hebrews prior to the Babylonian exile when they took the Babylonian names.

(Which makes me wonder as an aside why Jews today are willing to continue to use the Babylonian month names for their "sacred" calendar but resist using B.C. and A.D. Seems like they're playing favorites between their "pagan" host nations!)

And while we will be discussing "months" we must keep uppermost in our minds that saying the word "month" in Hebrew was the equivalent of saying "the new moon", right Yoshi? So that would be, according to your calculations, approximately every 28 days correct? According to one encyclopedia that I looked at the time elapsing between two successive new moons is on average every 29 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes and 2.8 seconds!

In primitive Semitic the older poetic word for month is "yerah". This is regularly employed in the Phoenician, Ugaritic and Gezer Calendars, but the more common prosaic Hebrew idiom for "month" in the Bible is "hodesh" (see 1 Kgs 6:38 where both are used apparently in contrast to one another!). However although "hodesh" originated from observation of the moon's renewal, the word was by no means limited to this exact connotation because we see in Gen 29:14 that Jacob dwelt with Laban "a month of days." (Was that April 1st to May 1st or May 16th to June 17th?)

The difference between the Semitic Phoenician and the Semitic Hebrew brings me to the fact that three of the month names used in the Bible - Ziv, Ethanim and Bul, that is names that were used in pre-Exilic Israel - are Phoenician names! It was Solomon who employed Phoenician technicians, craftsmen, etc. and from whom materials were supplied so it is reasonable to believe that it was they who also kept the records of the building progress and thus we have the use of Phoenician month names. But these month names are used ONLY in connection with the building and dedicating of Solomon's temple and is probably why the distinction is made between the NUMBER of the Hebrew month and the NAME of the Phoencian month.

Ziv is called "the second month" in 1 Kgs 6:1, 37
Ethanim is called "the seventh month" in 1 Kgs 8:2
Bul is called "the eighth month" in 1 Kgs 6:38

Gen 8:5 mentions the fact that there is a "tenth month" but it is not named.

Exo 11:2 states that the institution of Passover in Egypt would be "the beginning of months" TO THE HEBREWS (indicating a separate menology?) and Exo 13:4 calls this month "Abib" - which is not mentioned in Phoenician sources. (Every usage of "abib" also employs the term "hodesh" which further indicates a contrast between the Semitic Phoenician calendar and the Semitic Hebrew calendar.) We know from Exo 9:31 that Pharaoh's barley was ruined by the hail, but all this proves is that "abib" was a common agricultural noun indicating that the barley had headed and that it became incorporated in the month name of the ancient Hebrew agricultural calendar. (The Gezer calendar dating from the 10th cen. B.C. is also an agricultural calendar but completely distinct based on THEIR agricultural seasons. As an example, the "season" or time for planting corn here in the South isn't the same as it is in say Minnesota or some other part of the world. Arkansas' corn-planting "season" is "the end of March or early April" (http://www.uaex.edu/Other_Areas/news/July2004/0709corn.asp) whereas Wisconsin's corn-planting "season is "May 1 to 5 in southern and western Wisconsin" (http://corn.agronomy.wisc.edu/FISC/Corn/Planting/PlantingSeason.htm) - at least an entire month's difference!)

It was Egypt that developed a solar calendar having 30-day months irrespective of the renewing of the moon, although it must have had its origins in lunation since 30 days is an approximate lunation (exact lunation being 29 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes, 2.8 seconds) and the Egyptian hieroglyph for "month" is the crescent. We inherited this system through the Romans with the addition of a leap year to make up the yearly one-quarter of a day discrepancy based on a strict or true solar year. But there is no evidence in the Bible of any such uniform solar month. It is the "new moon" that is of primary importance in the Bible thus introducing a disparity among that calendar and those of the people around them.

The Egyptians also numbered their months but from 1-4 during each of the three seasons. Solomon used a numbered system contrasted against the Phoenician name system, while the book of Jeremiah uses ONLY a numbered system. After the Exile the Jews, like other subject peoples, were gradually forced to use the Babylonian month names. Nehemiah, although a Persian government official, seems to have preferred the Babylonian names while Ezra, a scribe and priest, in all but one instance uses the Judean numbered designation. The book of Esther uses both, giving dual references. This is also the case in the Elephantine papyri where dual references use both the Babylonian and Egyptian month names.

In fact, it appears that at least 5 to 6 different calendars were used by the ancient Hebrews:

1) The local agricultural calendar - the "abib" calendar - where the new year began in the spring in connection with the barley growing season.

2) The Gezer Calendar, discovered in 1908 written c. 925 B.C. in good biblical Hebrew, which began with two months of olive harvest.

3) The Phoenician Calendar.

4) The numbered calendar. (Gezer was incorporated into Solomon's realm upon the capture of Gezer by Solomon's Pharaonic father-in-law.) Solomon's Civil Calendar apparently began in autumn with the Feast of Trumpets. The dedication of his temple was postponed for 11 months (cp. 1 Kgs 6:38 w/ 1 Kgs 8:2) apparently in order to make it a part of the autumnal new year festival (Rosh Hashana).

5) The Babylonian Calendar whose new year began in the spring.

It was only during the intertestament period that the Jews developed a perfectly regular calendar - i.e. a 6th calendar! - in order to insure proper observance of their holy days. The Book of Jubilee describes a year made up of 364 days, divided into four series of three months each, the first and second months always having 30 days and the third month having 31 days. The first day of the first month was always Wednesday, so that the eve of the Passover was on Tuesday every year. This was the calendar observed by the Qumran community for dating their religious festivals and apparently the one that Jesus and his disciples followed. (see Finegan Light from the Ancient Past, pp. 580-587, 596ff.)

[Cherith]

1) On Paltalk, if you're talking about the Torah Nation room, or it's former name of Jesus ain't Judaism, everyone gets "vetted." We get a lot of missionaries who are deceptive (i'm not saying that most are), and who make up wierd stuff before they try to convert us. Since the problems began, most Christians haven't been allowed in those rooms.

It was "Torah Nation" Yosh. I'm posting the letter that I sent to Shelomo Alfassa after being so rudely attacked and blind-sided regarding the issue below.

To: Director@TorahNation.org
From: <me>
cc: email@alfassa.com; staff@TorahNation.org
Subject: PALTALK: Questions for Christians

Regarding your rudeness on Paltalk and the question you asked me:

Matt 5:42 " Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you."

You said that the Christian Bible was stupid and that you didn't have time for idiots, and I can certainly appreciate that as I encounter them all too often myself. I just wanted to give YOU some food for thought from the Torah (the passages that Jesus was referring to):

Deut 15:7-8, 10-11 "If there is a poor man with you, one of your BROTHERS, in any of your towns in your land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand from your poor BROTHER. {8} but you shall FREELY open your hand to him, and shall GENEROUSLY lend him sufficient for his need {in} WHATEVER he lacks." ...{10} You shall GENEROUSLY give to him, and your heart shall not be grieved when you give to him, because for this thing the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in all your undertakings. {11} "For the poor will never cease {to be} in the land; therefore I command you, saying, 'You shall FREELY open your hand to your BROTHER, to your NEEDY and POOR in your land'."

Lev 25:35 "And if thy BROTHER be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: [yea, though he be] a STRANGER, or a SOJOURNER; that he may LIVE WITH THEE. {36} Take NO USURY OR INTEREST FROM him; but fear your God, that your brother may LIVE WITH YOU. {37} You shall not lend him your money for usury, NOR LEND him your food AT A PROFIT.

---------------------
Psa 37:21 "The wicked borrow and do not repay, but the righteous GIVE generously;"

Psa 41:1 "How blessed is he who considers the poor/helpless; The LORD will deliver him in a day of trouble.

Psa 112:5, 9 " A good man deals graciously and lends; He will guide his affairs with discretion." ... {9} He has GIVEN FREELY to the POOR, His righteousness endures forever; His horn will be exalted in honor."

Prov 3:27-28 "Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, When it is in your power to do {it.} {28} Do not say to your NEIGHBOR, 'Go, and come back, And tomorrow I will GIVE it,' When you have it with you."

Prov 11:25 "The GENEROUS soul will be made rich, And he who waters will also be watered himself. "

Prov 22:9 " He who has a generous eye will be blessed, For he gives of his bread to the poor."

Prov 25:21 "If your ENEMY is hungry, give him food to eat; And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink;"

Prov 28:27 " He who gives to the poor will never want, But he who shuts his eyes will have many curses."

Isa 58:7, 10 " Is it not to SHARE your bread with the hungry, And that you BRING TO YOUR HOUSE THE POOR WHO ARE CAST OUT; When you see the naked, that you cover him, And not hide yourself from your own flesh?" ...{10} "Feed the hungry and help those in trouble. Then your light will shine out from the darkness, and the darkness around you will be as bright as day."

Ezek 18:8 "IF he has NOT EXACTED USURY Nor taken ANY INCREASE, But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity And executed true judgment between man and man; {9} IF he has walked in My statutes And kept My judgments faithfully-- HE IS JUST; HE SHALL SURELY LIVE!' Says the Lord God."

Does the Lord expect you to forgo "any" and all "increase"? Perhaps you should quit any mutual funds you may have...

I don't see how what Jesus said was substantially different from what had already been said in your own Scriptures?

Matt 5:42 says nothing about how much to give and God would surely not have a person deplete their savings for a mere whim of another (cp. 1 Tim 5:8), but only for those in NEED and as the verses from The Law point out this is a matter between "brothers" - not "strangers" or "sojourners" (cf Deut 23:20; 15:6; 28:12). The very next sentence also qualifies his statement regarding the second group with the word "borrow". (The Greek word meaning "to loan on interest.")

BTW, regarding your "about (http://www.torahnation.org/about.html)" page, you said:

"You are the descendent of generations of grand-parents, you have the right and ability to reclaim YOUR HERITAGE..."

The question that I wanted to ask you was this - especially since you seem to know all about your genealogy and your "heritage" - what TRIBE are you from? Where is the PROOF of your covenant relationship with God based on descendancy from Abraham? The Bible records all of those genealogies for some reason. In fact, Ezra 2:62 considers it a downright requirement in order to be a priest/cohen and of course there's the matter of the Davidic line...

Just food for thought.
--VERITAS!

[Timothy Leary]

My advice to you : Just avoid Torah Nation.

Putting you and Toras in the same chatroom would be like the Protestant and Catholic wars all over again, minus the blood.

[Cherith]

My advice to you : Just avoid Torah Nation. Putting you and Toras in the same chatroom would be like the Protestant and Catholic wars all over again, minus the blood.

Oh, I don't know about chat being bloodless, some of Eli's posts make certain veins in my head burst and then there's a bunch of spewing that follows!!!

:rant: :argh:

[Timothy Leary]

Ok, getting back to this thread while I'm waiting for my SWG server to get online. (Daily maintenance stuff) (yes, SWG is why I've been quiet lately :P)

Cherith asked me a question in PM which she said I could answer here. Here it is (and, for the record, I entirely cut & paste from TKK)

Cherith asked:

SO, my real question is this, WHAT WARRANT does sola scriptura Karaism have for adding an entire "month of days" to the new moon cycle? I understand the concept of abib regarding the barley, but just because the barley had headed in Pharaoh's fields hardly provides this warrant/authorization to wait another 29/30 days in order to pronounce the beginning of a new year. Isn't the information about Pharaoh's field just that - information, a statement of fact, NØT a warrant to creat a calendar by?

Flexing my copying and pasting Muscles, I reply:

The Biblical year begins with the first New Moon after the barley in Israel reaches the stage in its ripeness called Abib. The period between one year and the next is either 12 or 13 lunar months. Because of this, it is important to check the state of the Barley crops at the end of the 12th month. If the barley is Abib at this time, then the following New Moon is Hodesh Ha-Aviv ("New Moon of the Abib"). If the barley is still immature, we must wait another month and then check the barley again at the end of the 13th month.

The Torah calls this month: "The First Month" (Hodesh HaRishon) and also refers to it as "Month of the Abib" (Hodesh Ha'Abib). It should be noted that it is not called Month of Abib, but rather Month of THE Abib. Abib is not the name of the month, but rather describes the character of the month [since names in Biblical Hebrew can not get the definite article]. The name Nissan is a Babylonian month name, which was learned by Israel during the Babylonian exile.

---Yoshi comments : If what is normally the last month of the year passes, and it is *not* Aviv, then what else can you do, but add another month? Another example of the definite article making such a difference could be same in modern times. Using the word 'shoah', i could simply be talking of destruction. However, if I say "*the* shoah" then immdediately the subject is known the be the holocaust. We have records of this additional month and the checking of the aviv from the time of the last temple (as recorded in the Rabbinical Writings)---

"For it has been taught: It once happened that Rabban Gamaliel was sitting on a step on the Temple Mount, and the well known Scribe Yohanan was standing before him with three cut sheets [of parchment] lying before him. [Rabban Gamaliel said] ...take the third [sheet] and write to our brethren, the Exiles of Babylon and to those in Media, and to all the other exiled [sons] of Israel, saying: "May your peace be great forever! We beg to inform that the doves are still tender and the lambs are still too young and the Abib is not yet ripe. It seems advisable to me and to my colleagues to add thirty days to this year.""

The Talmud thinks the Braytot are referring to Rabban Gamaliel II and his son R. Simeon ben Gamaliel II. However, it is highly unlikely that R. Gamaliel II would be sitting on the steps of the Temple Mount writing a letter to the Jews of Babylon. This must have been R. Gamaliel I.

---Yoshi: the last quote was from http://www.karaite-korner.org/ancient_abib_reports.shtml , the rest was from various pages on TKK---

[Cherith]

The Biblical year begins with the first New Moon after the barley in Israel reaches the stage in its ripeness called Abib. The period between one year and the next is either 12 or 13 lunar months. Because of this, it is important to check the state of the Barley crops at the end of the 12th month. If the barley is Abib at this time, then the following New Moon is Hodesh Ha-Aviv ("New Moon of the Abib"). If the barley is still immature, we must wait another month and then check the barley again at the end of the 13th month.

---Yoshi comments : If what is normally the last month of the year passes, and it is *not* Aviv, then what else can you do, but add another month?

"For it has been taught: It once happened that Rabban Gamaliel was sitting on a step on the Temple Mount, and the well known Scribe Yohanan was standing before him ...[and[Rabban Gamaliel said] ...write to our brethren, the Exiles of Babylon, ... Media, and to all the other exiled [sons] of Israel, saying: ...It seems advisable to me and to my colleagues to add thirty days to this year.""

But Yoshi, that still doesn't answer my question. In my PM I outlined the fact that there is NEVER a thirteenth month mentioned in all of the Old Covenant. There are individual references to twelve months but NEVER to a thirteenth. Surely SOMETHING must have occurred during one of those leap years (especially noting their frequency in Judaism) to have occassioned at least ONE reference to a thirteenth month!?

I also outlined the fact that if you run the numbers for a calendar based strictly upon the renewing of the moon (29 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes and 2.8 seconds) it would come out like this:

12 months (since there is never a "thirteenth" month mentioned in the Bible)
x 29 days
348 days

12 months
x 12 hours
144 hours
÷ 24 hours in a day
6 days

So every other month would be 30 days long and that would make the year 348+6=354 days long.

12 months
x 44 minutes
528 minutes (or 8.8 hours; 528÷60=8.8)

It would take 3 yrs for 8.8 hours to equal another whole day with 2.4 hours remaining, so every 3 years you would have to add another day. It would then take 10 years for those 2.4 hours to add up to another whole day so that, in addition to adding a day every 3 yrs, you would also have to add another day every 10 years. The Calendar would then go like this:

1 = 354 days
2 = 354 days
3 = 355 days
4 = 354 days
5 = 354 days
6 = 355 days
7 = 354 days
8 = 354 days
9 = 355 days
10 = 356 days
3545 days in a 10 year average

The length of 10 Gregorian years (which would include 2 extra leap year days) would be 3652 days (or a difference of 107 days). Because the Gregorian Calendar has a leap year - i.e. an extra day added - it would take 4 cycles of 10 years to fully compare the average between the Gregorian cycle and lunar cycle.

365 days
x 40 years
14,600 days
+ 10 days (the addition of 1 day every 4 years; 40÷4=10)
14,610

3545 in a 10 year average
x 4 (to equal 40 years)
14,180 days

14,610 days
-14,180 days
430 day difference between Gregorian Calendar and Lunar Calendar

It would take an even longer cycle to compare a strictly lunar cycle with the 19-year Jewish cycle of Hillel, no?

So, isn't the information about Pharaoh's field just that - information, a statement of fact, NØT a WARRANTto create a calendar by? WHAT BIBLICAL WARRANT is there for adding an entire "month of days" to the new moon cycle?

The Text says:

"Observe the month of [the barley heading], and keep the passover unto the LORD thy God: for in the month of [the barley heading] the LORD thy God brought thee forth out of Egypt by night." --Deu 16:1

Wouldn't it seem more logical to RENUMBER the months rather than ADD an entire "month of days" without any Biblical warrant or reference?

[Timothy Leary]

Cherith, I think you entirely missed the point the the Only Covenant says. It is the month of *the* aviv. If the 12th month end, and the requirements for the beggining month has not been fulfilled, then what other logical conclusion is there?

[Cherith]

Cherith, I think you entirely missed the point the the Only Covenant says. It is the month of *the* aviv. If the 12th month end, and the requirements for the beggining month has not been fulfilled, then what other logical conclusion is there?

I think you missed my point. My point was why ADD another month instead of renumbering the months? For example, according to your friend's website (http://www.karaite-korner.org/new_moon/index.html) the new moon/year/abib for 2002 was APR 14th, correct? In 2003 it was on APR 3rd, correct?, with 12 months in between? However, in 2004 the new moon/year started on MAR 22nd with only 11 months in between. Isn't this an example of renumbering the months albeit omitting rather than adding an additional month?

Can you give me a fairly recent example of when the Karaite Kalendar did had 13 months in it - i.e. what Gregorian year?

As for your "ONLY Covenant" comment, I would direct you to read Jeremiah 31:31-34:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a NEW Covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: {32} NØT according to the [Old] Covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My Covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: {33} But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. {34} And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jer 31:31-34)

Postscript: Nevermind, I just found it, the new year for 2001 (according to your tradition) started on my birthday, MAR 26th, which would put 13 months/moons between 26 MAR 2001 and 14 APR 2002.

Maybe I've been looking at and reading this stuff too long! Your way actually seems to be making sense to me! :blush: (Don't get the big-head just yet, I may come back to my senses after all.) :wink:

Ok, so what YEAR is it - according to Karaite Judaism? And do Karaites go by the Babylonian month names? (I noticed that Josephus referred to Nisan as the month Xanthicus in Book II, Chpt 15, para 2.)

[Timothy Leary]

Actually Cherith, the last "leap year" was last year - see the new moon report at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/karaite_korner_news/message/133

(you can join this newsletter to recieve the new moon updates when they are cited - this is how the new moon citings are distributed across the world currently)

It is interesting to note that while extremely rare, it is possible to have two leap years in a row.

So what year is it? Last I checked it's 2004 :P

A calender simply goes by the reference in time. You could use 57 - the number of years since Israel became a state (again), or 1253 - the number of years there has been a continous Karaite presence in Jerusalem, or you could use 2004 - and everyone knows what that is based on :P

About the babylonian names - I am going to shamelessly copy and paste from the TKK FAQ:

Are the names Bul, Ethanim, and Ziv (Zif) original Israelite month names?

No. First of all, the months Bul, Ziv, and Ethanim are not mentioned anywhere in the Torah, so we know from the start that these are not the Torah month names. In contrast, the Torah itself assigns a number to each month, starting with the first New Moon after the barley becomes Abib. For example, First Month, Second Month, Third Month, etc. (see Ex 12,2; Lev 23; Nu 28-29).

The names Bul, Ziv, and Ethanim only appear 4 times and only in the the Book of Kings. All 4 references to these month names are in the account of Solomon's relation with the Phoenicians and their assistance with the construction of the Temple (1Ki 6,1.37.38; 8,2). In all likelihood these names are foreign month names, possibly of Phoenician origin (see below). In fact, in 3 of the 4 instances in which they appear, the Biblical text goes out of its way to translate them into Torah month names with the formula:

"in the month [Foreign name], which is the [Torah name] month."

Thus we read, "in the month Ziv, which is the second month", "in the month Ethanim, which is the seventh month", "in the month Bul, which is the eighth month". The one instance in which the Phoenician month name is not translated is that of the 2nd appearance of Ziv (Zif), which had already been translated earlier in the same chapter.

That these are Phoenician month names is confirmed by the fact that the name Yerah Bul (Month of Bul) has been found in Phoenician inscriptions and Bul has been found in Palmyran (also a Canaanite people) inscriptions as the name of one of their gods. Although the names Ziv and Ethanim have not been preserved in Phoenician inscriptions, from the Biblical text it is clear that all three names are part of the same calendary system and if we know that Bul is a Phoenician name it is likely that Ziv and Ethanim also are. Either way, they are clearly not Torah month names.

[Timothy Leary]

Anything else cherith?

[Sacrificial Ram]

Well, I took Eli's advice and was reading the counter-missionary opinion of Daniel 9 (http://messiahtruth.com/daniel9.html). There is a whole lot in that article that Xians wouldn't have a problem with, but I must confess I was flabbergasted with his chronology (which I'm still wading through). Which brings me to this thread.

In his article he uses the "Jewish Calendar" - relying on Seder 'Olam Rabbah - which has a 165-166 yr discrepancy (some say even a 240 yr gap - see Israel Today, May 1999, "The Mystery of the 240 Missing Years") with regards to historical events. The Seder 'Olam's authorship is ascribed to Jose b. Halafta who died in 160 A.D. (Halafta also said that the destruction of the Second Temple occurred in 68 A.D. instead of 70 A.D.! So much for his reliability...)

Now I understand why Judaism would want to have a different reckoning of time/events, but what I don't understand is how they can continue to account for the discrepancy in time given the virtual unanimity of historians?

Can anyone help to clue me in?
I think you should look at a few other pages too..

http://messiahpage.com/htmldocs/fb-nowCM.html
http://www.angelfire.com/my/tgoldman0/prophet.htm#dan9
http://home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/j4j_no.html

[Timothy Leary]

What does this have to do with the issue of the Calender???

[Cherith]

Anything else cherith?

There was something else Yoshi, but I can't for the life of me think of it right now. I'm still trying to compare the Rabbinic chronology with conventional chronology, and keep running into dead ends. I did find a book that I've got on order called Jewish History in Conflict: A Study of the Major Discrepancy Between Rabbinic and Conventional Chronology by Mitchell First (an orthodox Jewish lawyer, I believe).

There are a lot of things that I would like to say about the link Eli posted, but I'm waiting to get all of my ducks in a row first - that is before I tear that fellow's thesis (and Judaism's) to shreds!!! :wink:

I must say that I had hoped that Eli would have been up to answering the discrepancy of the years in this thread. I didn't mean for it to dissolve into an issue over the days and months of the Hebrew Calendar.

Regarding the age of the earth, I found this today:

The age of the Earth at 2000 AD according to:

* Rabbinical, 5759
* Scaliger, 5949
* Zunz (Hebrew reckoning), 5987
* Ussher, 6003
* Eusebius, 7198
* Septuagint (Perowne), 7410
* Hales, 7410
* Jackson, 7425
* Panodorus, 7492
* Dionysius, 7493
* Anianus, 7500
* Maximus, 7500
* Syncellus and Theophanes, 7500
* Julius Africanus, 7500
* Constantinopolitan, 7508

What is the dating called that the Jews use when conventional chronology states that the destruction of Jerusalem was in 586 B.C. and they say 422/421 B.C.?

P.S. I see you changed your "handle." How'd you talk DeeDee into that? I liked Yoshiah though, it made me think of little Yoshi on one of our kid's Nintendo games... (Hard to be angry with a cartoon, eh?) I've often thought about changing mine. Who would have guessed when I signed up over here how B-I-G Tweb would have gotten by now!?!

[Timothy Leary]

For that subject, you'll have to ask them. It's not a subject I know much about.

There are a few reasons I had the name change, but the main reason is that it clarifies what I am (in religious POV's) quickest.

[Timothy Leary]

I noticed that the gap was discussed on Am Ha'Aretz (http://www.amhaaretz.com/2004/02/reconciling_jewish_chronology.html) (not to be confused with the newspaper, Ha'Aretz), a site which handles issues relevant to myself in an unsugarcoated manner :)

[Shlomo Ishtov]

I am sorry for the long delay in replying, I just found this forum today.

I am Shlomo Ishtov, the author of the article under discussion below.

It is amazing no one ever bothered to email me to ask me while this was under discussion.

Very simply put. Tanach says 4 kings for Persia and Media. and Gives a total of around 52 years. If you try and follow contemporary historians who heavily rely on the ancient accounts of Josephus, who was not a eyewitness to the persian empire, then you contradict Tanach by a belief of 11 kings rather than 4.

The Egyptian king list from the Manetho Papryus, (the only king list containing kings from this late date) contains only two complete pairs of cartouches for kings of the Persian occupation.

The cartouche identified as Darius I and the one identified as Darius III are nearly identical and simply a variation of the same king, much the same way the spelling of Ramesses II changed throughout his 67 year reign.

The point is the Manetho papyrus shows only two kings for Persia. There are other cartouches which do not appear in pairs. for the titles Artaxerxes and Xerxes are simply that. One meaning King, the other meaning fit to be king, or Prince. All four kings could hold that title, as well as other princes who never became king and were regional governors. That is where the confusion of josephus comes into play.


Seder Olam is correct in stating 68CE as the destruction. 3828 YC.
Any questions on the article, I would be happy to address.

[sylvius]

Time gap of 165 years between historical time and biblical time is known as "Sod Daniel", the gematria of which is 165 (70+95).

Hatach from the Ester-scroll is said to be Daniel.

Hatach was the messenger between Ester and Mordechai, between the inner (of the royal palace) and the outer (world).

Hatach was killed, and since then this time gap exists; i.e. the time in which the temple stood is of another order than the historical time, the temple being a reality of another, a higher, level, than the historical.