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August 1st 2004, 11:23 AM
TheologyWeb Is Proud To Present Our Feature Ministry Article:

Who is your Neighbor?
And, for that matter, how should we treat our neighbor?


By Chris Hampton



GODISNOWHERE.org - Ministry of Truth & Challenge

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In Romans 13:8-9, Paul tells us to "owe no one anything except to love one another." He says all the commandments are summed up in this saying: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

In Matthew 18:21-22, Peter asks Jesus, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" Our Lord responded, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven."

So the question arises, "Who is our neighbor?" All people in the world? Or some smaller subset of the world? How do we discern whom we should treat like a "neighbor?" We need to know where to draw a line, if at all, so that we can relate to others based on a biblical perspective rather than our own assumptions or personal preferences. This topic paper will attempt to answer that question from a biblical perspective and by rightly dividing the word of truth as it proclaims the correct relationship and divisions between believers, the world and unbelievers.

Paul begins to clarify this for us in Romans 14 where he teaches us to "Receive one who is weak in the faith." He continues on to teach us to avoid disputes over those secondary issues that could cause a weak brother to stumble. Paul further strengthens this example in Romans 15 where he calls for us "to bear with the scruples of the weak" and "Let each of us please his neighbor for good, leading to edification."

The answer to the question is that our neighbor is our fellow brother in Christ. Jesus Himself lays down this same premise in John 13:34-35.

John 13:34 "A new commandment I give you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another"

John 13:35 "By this, all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

The world will know we are of Christ because of the love we have for one another, and not the love we have for the world.

So the world of unbelievers is not our Neighbors?

Idolaters, God-haters, false prophets and the followers of these are not our neighbors. We do not honor God by showing tolerance and love towards these people. We honor God by loving our neighbor, which is one another in the Body of Christ. Our love towards the world is that of warning, that of preaching the "Bad News" which is the condemnation of Law, and by offering God's gift of reconciliation through Christ and Christ alone (the "Good News"), as the solution to that condemnation.

It does no good to put our love and God's grace upon unbelievers. This will only give them a false sense that the life they are living and the darkness they love is valid in our eyes and in God's. The only outcome will be that these people will remain in the darkness and will remain under the wrath of God.

The Law is for the unrighteous and the wicked

What is the purpose of the Law? Why did God give the Law to man? To bring life… or death?

Gal 3:19 Why then the Law? It was added because of transgressions, until the Seed should come to those to whom it had been promised, being ordained through angels in the Mediator's hand.

The Law was given for our transgressions, until Christ came. Once we come to Christ we are no longer under the Law. However, those not in Christ are still under the Law.

Gal 3:24 So that the Law has become a trainer of us until Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The Law is a tutor for the unbelievers to point them towards Christ. The law was made for the unrighteous and the wicked, and it should be used to elicit the desired effect, which is the destruction of the flesh and the realization of the failing of one's own system of justification.

1Tim 1:8 But we know that the law is good if a man uses it lawfully,

1Tim 1:9 knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous one, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

1Tim 1:10 for fornicators, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and anything else that is contrary to sound doctrine,

The Law should be applied to the unbelievers in the world, for it is made for them! We should not reach out and tolerate, or embrace, or love the world of unbelievers, but we should teach the Law and apply it to their actions and lifestyles. This is the only hope for unbelievers to come out of the darkness, to look into the mirror of the Law and see for themselves that they are sinners and that they are under God's wrath.

Paul used the law in this way on the false believer in 1 Corinthians 5:1-13.

1Cor 5:1 On the whole it is reported that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not even named among the nations, so as one to have his father's wife.

1Cor 5:2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, so that he who has done this deed may be taken from your midst.

1Cor 5:3 For as being absent in body but present in spirit, I indeed have judged already as though I were present concerning him who worked out this thing;

1Cor 5:4 in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, with my spirit; also, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ;

1Cor 5:5 to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1Cor 5:6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?

1Cor 5:7 Therefore purge out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, as you are unleavened. For also Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us.

1Cor 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast; not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

1Cor 5:9 I wrote to you in the letter not to associate intimately with fornicators;

1Cor 5:10 yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then you must go out of the world.

1Cor 5:11 But now I have written to you not to associate intimately, if any man called a brother and is either a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one not to eat.

1Cor 5:12 For what is it to me to also judge those who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
1Cor 5:13 But God judges those who are outside. Therefore put out from you the evil one.


Paul makes the case clearly that the church was in grave error in the tolerance, love and even boasting of the man within their midst who was living a life of unrepentant sexual immorality. Paul calls for this man to be removed from the church and delivered over to Satan or the world for the destruction of his own flesh. Paul further judges this false believer and calls him evil and wicked.

How do we as believers interact with the world and unbelievers?

As believers in Christ, we stand justified before God our Father. He calls us to be sanctified through Christ, for "I no longer live, but Christ lives in me, and the life that I now live in the flesh I live by the faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." Gal 2:20

As believers, we must hold to all that is true, all that is good and all that is righteous. Part of our sanctification is our separation from the world, not a separation of contact and sharing in truth but rather a separation in thought, desires, motives and morality. We now live for God, and we stand for his truth, against the world of which we used to be a part.

We must be able to judge the sinful acts of both unbelievers and believers as evil. We must take a stand for everything that is Good. We fight against abortion, torture, pornography, rape, homosexuality, etc. When we are in the presence of evil, we must be ready to call out that which is evil, without pause.

We do not sit with lying or wicked men

Psa 26:3 For Your loving-kindness is before my eyes; and I have walked in Your truth.

Psa 26:4 I have not sat with lying men, neither will I go in with hypocrites.

Psa 26:5 I have hated the congregation of evil-doers, and will not sit with the wicked.

We will not set any wicked thing before our eyes

Psa 101:3 I will set no wicked thing before my eyes. I have hated the work of those who turn aside; it shall not hold on to me.


We will hate every false way (Righteous hatred)

Psa 119:103 How sweet are Your Words to my taste! More than honey to my mouth!

Psa 119:104 Through Your Commandments I get understanding; therefore I hate every false way.


We fear God, which means we hate evil, pride, arrogance and evil ways (Righteous fear)

Prov 8:13 The fear of Jehovah is to hate evil; I hate pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the wicked mouth.

Psa 139:21 O Jehovah, do I not hate those who hate You? And am I not grieved with those who rise up against You?


We have no fellowship with the Darkness but rather expose it

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the children of disobedience.

Eph 5:7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Eph 5:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light

Eph 5:9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth),

Eph 5:10 proving what is acceptable to the Lord.

Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.


We avoid those who cause division and make offenses contrary to the doctrine

Rom 16:17 And I exhort you, brothers, to watch those making divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them.

Rom 16:18 For they who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches they deceive the hearts of the simple.


We will not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers (this is not about marriage)

2Cor 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers; for what fellowship does righteousness have with lawlessness? And what partnership does light have with darkness?

2Cor 6:15 And what agreement does Christ have with Belial? Or what part does a believer have with an unbeliever?

2Cor 6:16 And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, as God has said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

2Cor 6:17 Therefore come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord, and do not touch the unclean thing. And I will receive you.


We do not love this world, or the things in the world

1John 2:15 Do not love the world, nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him,

1John 2:16 because all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

We won't take into our home or even greet he who doesn't bring the teaching of Christ

2 John 1:9 Everyone who does not abide in the teaching of Christ but goes beyond it does not have God. The person who abides in the teaching of Christ has both the Father and the Son.

2John 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your home or even greet him,

2John 1:11 for the one who greets him shares in his evil deeds.


We will preach the Word, and we will rebuke and judge

2Tim 4:2 preach the Word, be instant in season and out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine.

2Tim 4:3 For a time will be when they will not endure sound doctrine, but they will heap up teachers to themselves according to their own lusts, tickling the ear.


Jesus came to divide, and we must love Christ more than even our mother or father

Matt 10:34 Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth. I did not come to send peace, but a sword.

Matt 10:35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

Matt 10:36 And a man's foes shall be those of his own household.

Matt 10:37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

The world is a highly organized system of evil at constant war with God… and is therefore at war with us

John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. But because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.


More than ever today, Christians need to know where they stand in relation to their brothers and sisters in Christ, and in relation to the world. Compromise and postmodern liberalism are infiltrating the Body of Christ at an unprecedented rate. At the same time, the most important responsibility a Christian has today is to share the gospel of salvation by grace through faith, apart from works, to the world around us. If we treat the world the same as we treat our brother and sister, our neighbors… then our evangelical mission as Christians is compromised. If we condone and tolerate and accept the world just as it is, as if nothing is wrong… then we are effectively telling the world that there is no need for any Good News. The Bad News must be preached, before the Good News is relevant; a man won't care how great a doctor is, if he doesn't think he is sick. How would you treat a drug-abusing friend?

Love your neighbor as yourself. Forgive your repentant brother as many times as it takes. But put the Law on the unbeliever, and convey to them the condemnation they are under. The Law is the tutor to bring them to Christ. Once they are in Christ, they will no longer need that tutor.

"When tribulation and persecution arise because of the word, then chiefly the trial is, whether we love better, Christ or our relations and lives; yet even in the days of peace this matter is sometimes brought to the trial. Those that decline the service of Christ, and opportunities of converse with him, and are ashamed to confess him, for fear of disobliging a relation or friend, or losing a customer, give cause to suspect that they love him better than Christ." - from Matthew Henry's commentary on the whole Bible


Chris Hampton

GODISNOWHERE.org - Ministry of Truth & Challenge
"If you won't challenge what you believe… we'll do it for you."

chris@godisnowhere.org
jim@godisnowhere.org
(303) 680-5553


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GODISNOWHERE is a street evangelism and apologetics ministry whose primary mission is equipping the saints with the ability to effectively witness and evangelize in everyday life. Based out of Denver, we began taking God's truth to the street about eight years ago throughout across eastern Colorado, at fairs, festivals, college campuses and public parks. For more information, you can also visit our TheologyWeb sister-site subforum here.

We set up our 10'x10' tent at fairs, festivals and college campuses with no outward sign that we are a Christian organization. People only see our name (intentionally ambiguous) and a table with books of religions from all over the world, including Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Wicca, Satanism, Hinduism, and many philosophies including atheism/humanism. They see signs that say things like, "There is no truth - Is that true?" and, "Truth is unknowable - How do you know?" The observer has no way of knowing what we stand for, thus we begin as a blank slate to them. This affords us the opportunity to begin an open dialogue with many people who would never knowingly set foot in a Christian tent.

We challenge people to defend what they believe, regardless of what that is, and we invite them to challenge us back. Sometimes, we will not reveal we are Christian for five minutes, ten, thirty, forty-five minutes into a discussion. Sometimes, we will play the role of atheist, pagan or something else. But we always bring it around to the absolute Truth of Jesus Christ. And we challenge Christians hardest of all. Sadly, the vast majority of Christians can't defend their way out of a wet paper bag… and that is exactly why we exist. To challenge them to be able to defend their faith!

1 Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

In 2002, GODISNOWHERE's mission expanded in a new direction. We now provide a free seminar on basic apologetics to Colorado churches and college Christian student clubs. Whether we come for a two hour class or once a week for a month, we teach a style of apologetics that is, above all else, applicable in everyday life. We will use anything from classical arguments to evidentialism to presuppositionalism. While some apologetics authorities and organizations get caught up in the intellectual and scholastic pursuit of apologetics studies that one would use in a formal debate, we are more concerned with effective, solidly-based solutions for real life situations. And perhaps the most unique thing we have to offer is that after someone attends a seminar/class, they can put what they've learned into action alongside our ministry team, in our tent on the streets of Denver. In the trenches, contending with real people from all walks of life and every belief system imaginable!

We reject "lifestyle evangelism." We reject blind faith in favor of a reasoned faith based on evidence, logic and reason. We believe the greatest threat to the Body of Christ today is not from without but from within - the insidious enemy of postmodernism and relativism in our churches and members. It is in every denomination and in the non-denominational churches, in every city. It is worldly, it is evil, and it is highly organized.

Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. You cannot know God if you do not know the Truth.

Are you a truth seeker?

TheologyWeb is pleased to have GODISNOWHERE members Jim Schofield (RightIdea) and Adam Briggs (TruthMan) as regular participants at this forum, and Dee Dee Warren thanks them for their participation.

GODISNOWHERE
"A ministry of truth and challenge"
http://GODISNOWHERE.org
jim@godisnowhere.org
(303) 680-5553

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Amazing Rando
August 1st 2004, 07:15 PM
I find it disturbing that any treatment of the question "Who is my neighbor?" would not include the time that Jesus himself directly answered that very question from a questioner. This happened in Luke chapter 14, and this article doesn't even allude to it. What gives?

25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "
28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'
36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"
37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

Jesus answered the question, "Who is my neighbor?" with a story about a man (who happened to be from a different race and religion I might add) who helped out a complete stranger who had been robbed, beaten, and left for dead. Jesus' answer to the question, "Who is my neighbor?" is NOT "a fellow believer," for Samaritans were not Jews- in fact they were despised by Jews and normally did not associate with them (as the incident between Jesus and the Samaritan woman in John chapter 4 shows).

Jesus' answer to the question, "Who is my neighbor?" is: "Whoever is in need."

Edited to add: The article says: So the world of unbelievers is not our Neighbors?

Idolaters, God-haters, false prophets and the followers of these are not our neighbors. We do not honor God by showing tolerance and love towards these people. We honor God by loving our neighbor, which is one another in the Body of Christ. Our love towards the world is that of warning, that of preaching the "Bad News" which is the condemnation of Law, and by offering God's gift of reconciliation through Christ and Christ alone (the "Good News"), as the solution to that condemnation.

It does no good to put our love and God's grace upon unbelievers. This will only give them a false sense that the life they are living and the darkness they love is valid in our eyes and in God's. The only outcome will be that these people will remain in the darkness and will remain under the wrath of God.

In light of the parable of the Good Samaritan, what is one supposed to do for a person in need like the man in the story? Should we act as the Levite did, and leave him lying in the gutter if he is not one of our Christian brothers? I'm sure the article isn't saying that is it?

chrisH
August 1st 2004, 08:19 PM
Rando,

Good to hear from you again, I have not yet completed my initial replies to your challenges on the Baptism paper over in our Ministry forum area.

Anyway, thanks again for your challenges.

As you well know I hold to the Mid-Acts Dispensational position for the foundation of my Theology and because of this foundation I always start my doctrinal teachings from a clear separation between the Nation of Israel and The Body of Christ. Although in this topic paper I did want to present what I believe is a holistic teaching in that “God desires for his people to be separated from the world”. I believe this is a general principle which crosses Dispensational bounds. My initial attempt with this topic paper was to show the call to separation through out the Bible.

Now I am using the “Who’s your Neighbor?” question to drive at the distinct separation that exist in the Bible for God’s people whether they be Israel in the Old Testament and the New up until The Body of Christ, or The Body of Christ today. This separation as I stated in the topic paper is not a separation of contact, help, mercy, or sharing of truth but a separation of thoughts, desires and morality.

I do want to continue this teaching in a second paper where I want to detail the Dispensational separation of Israel and The Body of Christ. This would bring light to your challenge from Luke, for I believe this would answer passages like Luke 14 and Luke 6:27-36. Although I truly believe that if a Man or Woman displays faith in God he will respond to that individual as we also should respond to them in love when they come seeking out God and looking for answers.

This first paper was really to drive a discussion about how we as Christians should be looking at the world of unbelievers with regards to our own morality under God, and also how we should properly apply Law and Grace. This entire premise could be rolled up in one question

“Should we as believers apply the Law to the world and Grace to our fellow brothers, or should we apply the Law to our brothers and Grace to the world?”

Chris

Vorkosigan
August 2nd 2004, 02:43 AM
Jesus' answer to the question, "Who is my neighbor?" is: "Whoever is in need."

That's my answer, too. Frankly I welcome this article, as a forthright description of raging intolerance and the nothingness of power and control that lies at the heart of right-wing evangelical Christianity.

Vorkosigan

bar Jonah
August 2nd 2004, 04:12 AM
That's my answer, too. Frankly I welcome this article, as a forthright description of raging intolerance and the nothingness of power and control that lies at the heart of right-wing evangelical Christianity.

Vorkosigan
Frankly, I welcome that response, as a forthright description of raging intolerance and the nothingness of mainstream opposition to God that lies at the heart of left-wing relativistic atheism.

Now... see how far that got us? Let's graduate from elementary school and move on.

(And good response, Chris; keeping it on topic.)

Amazing Rando
August 2nd 2004, 09:44 AM
Rando,

Good to hear from you again, I have not yet completed my initial replies to your challenges on the Baptism paper over in our Ministry forum area.

Hi Chris- thanks for stopping in. :hi: And I'd like to express my apologies to you as well for my very ungraceful attitude when I wrote my reply to the article in that thread. It was a bad day! :blush: I'm willing to allow that thread to languish a bit as far as my participation is concerned because I'm involved in a number of other threads and projects right now.

Anyway, thanks again for your challenges.

As you well know I hold to the Mid-Acts Dispensational position for the foundation of my Theology and because of this foundation I always start my doctrinal teachings from a clear separation between the Nation of Israel and The Body of Christ. Although in this topic paper I did want to present what I believe is a holistic teaching in that “God desires for his people to be separated from the world”. I believe this is a general principle which crosses Dispensational bounds. My initial attempt with this topic paper was to show the call to separation through out the Bible.

I've been made aware of the teachings of your position through some friendly debates with regular Tweb participants RightIdea and Truthman. I believe you know them? Good guys, both, to be sure! :smile: Anyway, here's a current thread that I started to examine Mid-Acts Dispensationalism and to see if it holds up to a Scriptural scrutiny I've run it through: Mid-Acts Dispensationalism: Under the Microscope (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31014).

Where I believe you x9'ers are going awry is in your assumption of two distinct gospels during the NT times- one for Jewish Christians and one for Gentile Christians. See the thread I linked to for my reasons why I feel this is to be rejected. :teeth:

Now I am using the “Who’s your Neighbor?” question to drive at the distinct separation that exist in the Bible for God’s people whether they be Israel in the Old Testament and the New up until The Body of Christ, or The Body of Christ today. This separation as I stated in the topic paper is not a separation of contact, help, mercy, or sharing of truth but a separation of thoughts, desires and morality.

Certainly. And I'd never argue that there's no distinction between how we should treat believers and unbelievers. The end goal of any interaction with the unbeliever ought to be their repentance from sin and embracing the Lord. But I get the feeling that you and I have extremely different ways of doing this.

It's just that when you said in the article: Idolaters, God-haters, false prophets and the followers of these are not our neighbors. We do not honor God by showing tolerance and love towards these people. We honor God by loving our neighbor, which is one another in the Body of Christ. Our love towards the world is that of warning, that of preaching the "Bad News" which is the condemnation of Law, and by offering God's gift of reconciliation through Christ and Christ alone (the "Good News"), as the solution to that condemnation.

It does no good to put our love and God's grace upon unbelievers. This will only give them a false sense that the life they are living and the darkness they love is valid in our eyes and in God's. The only outcome will be that these people will remain in the darkness and will remain under the wrath of God.

It sent up a number of red flags for me. It seemed to me that you were suggesting that the only love we should show for unbelievers was to warn them of God's judgment and offer the hope of repentance. To me, this sounded like one of the crazies in the city who case the streets shouting at every passerby, "Repent now, or spend eternity in hell!" :flaming:

I do want to continue this teaching in a second paper where I want to detail the Dispensational separation of Israel and The Body of Christ. This would bring light to your challenge from Luke, for I believe this would answer passages like Luke 14 and Luke 6:27-36. Although I truly believe that if a Man or Woman displays faith in God he will respond to that individual as we also should respond to them in love when they come seeking out God and looking for answers.

So in other words... your answer's forthcoming, right? :shy: This'll be a good one then! The vast majority of Twebbers here see zero distinction between the Christians Paul addressed in his letters and those Peter addressed in his letters.

This first paper was really to drive a discussion about how we as Christians should be looking at the world of unbelievers with regards to our own morality under God, and also how we should properly apply Law and Grace. This entire premise could be rolled up in one question

Okay! So your point with this article wasn't really to answer the question of who our neighbor is? Because Jesus answered that question to my satisfaction in the Good Samaritan parable (which is actually in Luke 10, not Luke 14 :doh: I hate getting my references wrong! :sad:).

“Should we as believers apply the Law to the world and Grace to our fellow brothers, or should we apply the Law to our brothers and Grace to the world?”

Chris

This is a tricky question. You would need to define what you mean by "applying the Law and Grace" before I could answer that question.

Amazing Rando
August 2nd 2004, 09:53 AM
That's my answer, too. Frankly I welcome this article, as a forthright description of raging intolerance and the nothingness of power and control that lies at the heart of right-wing evangelical Christianity.

Vorkosigan

Now Vork, that's just dumb. Am I a "right-wing" Christian as well? While I appreciate the agreement, I'm challenging the assertions in this article because I feel they are mistaken on several key points, because of the example of Jesus. In any case, this is an "in house" discussion, and we would appreciate it if you'd not come swooping in with your blanket condemnation of Christianity in this manner. Please take it elsewhere, bud. :smile:Thanks!

Starkman
August 2nd 2004, 09:57 AM
Quote from chris responding to Rando: As you well know I hold to the Mid-Acts Dispensational position for the foundation of my Theology and because of this foundation I always start my doctrinal teachings from a clear separation between the Nation of Israel and The Body of Christ. Although in this topic paper I did want to present what I believe is a holistic teaching in that “God desires for his people to be separated from the world”. I believe this is a general principle which crosses Dispensational bounds. My initial attempt with this topic paper was to show the call to separation through out the Bible.

Now I am using the “Who’s your Neighbor?” question to drive at the distinct separation that exist in the Bible for God’s people whether they be Israel in the Old Testament and the New up until The Body of Christ, or The Body of Christ today. This separation as I stated in the topic paper is not a separation of contact, help, mercy, or sharing of truth but a separation of thoughts, desires and morality.

First, I share Rando's feelings. Second, I think Chris has allowed theological presupposition to influence his exegesis (or lack thereof--viz., Luke 14) a bit too much. Chris, if you want to talk about one's neighbor, particularly the Christian's neighbor, leave the theology behind, and let Jesus speak (Luke 14). If you want to talk about God wanting His people seperate from the world, then let Paul speak; neither of whom were coming from the Mid-Acts Dispensational theology in the issue of "who is your neighbor?" or in being separated from the world.

I understand you want to draw lines, but I think this is one case where you have to do so without the theological presuppositions and without using the concept of "who is your neighbor?" to do so. Two entirely different concepts.

Thanks very much,

Starkman

Amazing Rando
August 2nd 2004, 10:04 AM
Thanks, Starkman!

chrisH
August 3rd 2004, 07:59 PM
First, I share Rando's feelings. Second, I think Chris has allowed theological presupposition to influence his exegesis (or lack thereof--viz., Luke 14) a bit too much. Chris, if you want to talk about one's neighbor, particularly the Christian's neighbor, leave the theology behind, and let Jesus speak (Luke 14). If you want to talk about God wanting His people seperate from the world, then let Paul speak; neither of whom were coming from the Mid-Acts Dispensational theology in the issue of "who is your neighbor?" or in being separated from the world.

I understand you want to draw lines, but I think this is one case where you have to do so without the theological presuppositions and without using the concept of "who is your neighbor?" to do so. Two entirely different concepts.

Thanks very much,

Starkman


Starkman and Rando,


I agree with you both on the in-house debate point made to Vork, now I want to address the statement made by Starkman about leaving my Theology out of this topic.

First, I would hope that none of us (Christians) would undertake the study of a topic directly related to God’s word without an understanding and application of Theology for Theology is defined as this very process.

Main Entry: the•ol•o•gy
Pronunciation: thE-'ä-l&-jE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -gies
Etymology: Middle English theologie, from Latin theologia, from Greek, from the- + -logia -logy
Date: 14th century
1 : the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world

Secondly, I believe we all bring our presuppositions to the table when we study any Biblical topic. You are both bringing your Theological presuppositions to this topic are you not? There is nothing wrong with doing so how else would we have a frame work to communicate by?

Thirdly, I would disagree that this topic or question ‘Who is your Neighbor’ does not relate to any Dispensational position. Paul’s teaching on this topic would and does differ from that of Peter and Jesus. Why, because Jesus had a different purpose in his ministry while he was here on Earth, just as Peter and the eleven did during the period of Acts1-9.

This difference directly effects ‘Who was considered to be a brother or fellow believer and who was considered to be an unbeliever’.

For example look at these verses:

Matthew 10:5-7
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7And as you go, preach, saying, "The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

At this time the twelve where not to go to any other then Israel

Acts 2:5,9-10,14,22,36
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

9Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.

22"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know

36"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Here in Acts 2 Peter is addressing the Jews and proselytes with his pronouncement that Jesus was the promised Messiah and his death and resurrection where fulfillments of David’s prophecy concerning Christ and in turn beginning the time of Joel’s prophecy of the Last Days (a direct connection to the Tribulation period).

Now this is all directed at Israel.


Galatians 3:28
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3
11where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

Paul on the other hand makes it very clear that his Gospel of Grace makes no distinction between Jew or Gentile, this is the very core of the Mystery revealed by Jesus through Paul in Ephesians 3.

Thanks guys 'Iron does sharpen Iron'

Chris

Starkman
August 3rd 2004, 10:27 PM
Hey there, Chris,

Quotes are in boxes.

First, I would hope that none of us (Christians) would undertake the study of a topic directly related to God’s word without an understanding and application of Theology for Theology is defined as this very process.

I should have been more specific: leave your theology aside and let Jesus speak about who a neighbor is. It is only a reading into the text and creating what's not there to make such a differentiation between Jesus and the apostle's teaching.

Let Paul speak about being separated from the world (which Jesus and James both talked about), both in concert with the common sense of the issue and without the need to read anything into the text. This is just too simple and straight-forward to be complicated by Acts-9 teaching or anything else. It's pure common sense. That was the beauty of Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan. Granted, Jesus was bringing in a new eschatological era, and this meant the Jews were in for a brain washing--nothing wrong with getting one's brain washed if one puts good stuff back in there. But Peter, Paul and (Mary--sorry, couldn't resist!) James didn't come along and say, "Ok, folks, time to change the folks who are neighbors! Yup, changing of the guard, here, folks..."

Secondly, I believe we all bring our presuppositions to the table when we study any Biblical topic. You are both bringing your Theological presuppositions to this topic are you not? There is nothing wrong with doing so how else would we have a frame work to communicate by?

I didn't say we shouldn't bring out presuppositions to the table; what I said was you had allowed theological presupposition to influence your exegesis (or lack thereof--viz., Luke 14) a bit too much. There is a time and place for presupposition. As you have noted, we all bring them to the table. But there comes a time when we have to honestly step back and review and put the presupps aside as best as we can. Frankly, I can't see how it's even remotely possible to theologically complicate something as simple as "who is my neighbor." These are just common sense things.

Thirdly, I would disagree that this topic or question ‘Who is your Neighbor’ does not relate to any Dispensational position. Paul’s teaching on this topic would and does differ from that of Peter and Jesus. Why, because Jesus had a different purpose in his ministry while he was here on Earth, just as Peter and the eleven did during the period of Acts1-9.

This difference directly effects ‘Who was considered to be a brother or fellow believer and who was considered to be an unbeliever’.

There! Right there is where your presuppostion has gone too far. Whatever the aspect of Jesus' ministry was compared to Paul or James is irrelevant to who a neighbor is and to the Christian being separated from the world. Further, Jesus' message about who whas a believer was the same as all the rest. "Whoever (anyone: Jew and Gentile) believes in me will have waters of everlasting life flowing from out of His belly. (Ok, it's my paraphrase, but you get the point!). This was good for the woman at the well in John 4 and any other Gentile during His ministry. Jesus made no call for Gentiles to convert first to Judaism and then they could believe in Jesus. Let's look further...

For example look at these verses:

Matthew 10:5-7
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7And as you go, preach, saying, "The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

At this time the twelve where not to go to any other then Israel

Acts 2:5,9-10,14,22,36
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

9Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.

22"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know

36"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Here in Acts 2 Peter is addressing the Jews and proselytes with his pronouncement that Jesus was the promised Messiah and his death and resurrection where fulfillments of David’s prophecy concerning Christ and in turn beginning the time of Joel’s prophecy of the Last Days (a direct connection to the Tribulation period).

Now this is all directed at Israel.

Jesus also honored the Syro-Phonician's faith and the Centurion's faith. Further, there is the woman at the well, and Matthew's quote of Isaiah:

12 Now when he heard that John had been arrested, he withdrew into Galilee. 13 And leaving Nazareth he went and lived in Capernaum by the sea, in the territory of Zebulun and Naphtali, 14 so that what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:15 “The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali,the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles—
16 the people dwelling in darkness have seen a great light, and for those dwelling in the region and shadow of death, on them a light has dawned.”
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

The context is simple and requires nothing complicated to understand: Jesus was not beyond preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles. BUT, the formula was always respected: first to the Jew and then to the Gentile. This was only because it was God's plan since days of old: Use Israel to bring forth the gospel. Nothing new.

Finally, though there are several more examples I could use, it is simple, straight-forward and clear, when one reads the text as it is, that Peter gave the gospel to the Gentiles too: Cornelius' band of believers. Peter didn't require any conversion to Judaism for Cornelius or his believers. It's just plain, simple stuff, that's all. Nothing to complicate. The gospel has been for all from day one, but, as I noted, there was the formula to note.

Galatians 3:28
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3
11where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

Paul on the other hand makes it very clear that his Gospel of Grace makes no distinction between Jew or Gentile, this is the very core of the Mystery revealed by Jesus through Paul in Ephesians 3.

Well, no. Paul simply moved to the Gentiles because the Jews wouldn't listen. Really, we have to be honest and just look at the texts as they are given. Peter had already preached to the Gentiles, and it wasn't anything new that Paul did it also. And your assessment of the mystery isn't complete. The Mystery was the church: both Jew and Gentile in Christ:

This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God's grace, which was given me by the working of his power. To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord . . . (Eph 6).

The issue of the Gentiles was known in Scripture (Isaiah); the "church" was not. Paul didn't teach anything that Jesus hadn't already taught. It's just that when Jesus ministered, there was only He to do so (of course His apostles assisted, but it was Jesus' work); for He had to fulfill His ministry, and that ministry was to the Jew first AND THEN to the Gentile, as demonstrated by the above Scriptures. This was, hoewever, without the need of dispensationalizing the gospel or gapping the time between Jews and Gentiles coming into the body of Christ.

It's not complicated, and it's not anything to be divided into First Jesus, then Paul, then James or anything like that. I know you see it that way, but I think that is more presupposition than Scriptural teaching. That's what I meant by being too influenced by one's theology and presuppostions. And if you present your case with attempts to prove your points, as you did above, I'm simply going to suggest we read the texts in their simple and straight-foward manner in which they've come to us. That, I believe, does not support your premises. (So take them apples!!!)

I'm sorry I don't have the time to proof-read this, and I know it may come across harshly. I'm really sorry if that's the case.

Thanks guys 'Iron does sharpen Iron'

Definitely!

Amazing Rando
August 4th 2004, 01:41 PM
Howdy both of you! Starkman made an effective reply, so I'll just throw in my two cents in a few places.

I should have been more specific: leave your theology aside and let Jesus speak about who a neighbor is. It is only a reading into the text and creating what's not there to make such a differentiation between Jesus and the apostle's teaching.

I agree with Starkman, in that this is what I see the Acts-9 folks doing- forcing divisions between Jesus and Paul where none actually exist. I suppose we'll get to discussing specifics shortly.

Edit to add:

Well look at that- Starkman took care of everything a lot more thoroughly than I could- I've got nothing to add at this time! :teeth: Awesome post, mate.

Amazing Rando
August 4th 2004, 02:28 PM
Aha! I thought of something to add which might take the discussion in a different direction. Mid-Acts folks are often in the habit of telling us that there were two different gospels- one for the Jewish Christians, under which they were justified through through their faith and their works, and one for the Gentile Christians, under which they were justifed through their faith alone. This is not the case. In Galatians 2, Paul recounts his rebuke of Peter for lapsing back into the habit of obeying the Law for the sake of keeping up appearances when he knew perfectly well that he was not under the rule of the law at all. He says:

15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified." (Galatians 2)

This is rather cut and dry- One Jew says to another Jew (Don't worry, I'm not telling a bad joke here! :lol:) "We both know that we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ- NOT by observing the law. Because nobody is justified by observing the law. (The "nobody" includes both Jews and Gentiles).

And before you come back at with me with a decontextualized reading of James 2:24, let me share something I wrote to RightIdea a while ago:

The faith that James was talking about in chapter 2 of his epistle was not the radical, life-changing acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice for atonement of sins. It was mere intellectual assent. "Faith," as James uses it in the passage, is not in the sense of genuine, saving faith. Rather, it is demonic (verse 19), useless (verse 20), and dead (verse 26). It is mere intellectual acceptance of certain truths without trust in Christ as Savior. James is rather saying here that, to use Martin Luther's words, people are "justified by faith alone, not by a faith that is alone." (i.e. a faith that does not produce good fruit.) Genuine faith will produce good deeds, but only faith in Christ saves.

For a fuller picture of what James means, look at verses 15-17:

15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.


This is an illustration of false faith- it matches up nicely with the picture of false love that John paints in 1 John 3:17. The John passage calls for love in action, this one calls for faith in action. Your understanding of the James passage is, I feel, too superficial. All James means here is that righteous action is evidence of genuine faith- not that it saves. The verse he cites (Genesis 15:6) substantiates his point- that Abraham's faith was "credited to him as righteousness."

In addition, Abraham's act of faith recorded in 15:6 occured before he offered up Isaac. This was only proof of the genuineness of his faith.

As Paul wrote in Galatians 5:6, "The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." Faith that saves produces good works. That's all that James is saying here- if your faith does not produce good works, then you are right to question whether you are really saved; you should check and see if you are merely giving intellectual assent to the truths of Christianity, or if you are embracing them, believing them, making them your own, and allowing them to transform your life.

Most of us here see absolutely no contradiction between James' (and Jesus') message and that of Paul, and therein lies the source of our befuddlement with your particular brand of dispensationalism. We feel you're mistaken.

Anyway, hope that helps you understand where I'm coming from.

Jeannot
August 8th 2004, 10:33 AM
Isn't the point of the parable of the Good Samaritan that anyone we come across who is in need is our neighbor? Wasn't this, in fact, the question that Jesus was answering?

And note that the Samaritan was himself a heretic, according to the Jews.

Jeannot
August 8th 2004, 10:38 AM
I find it disturbing that any treatment of the question "Who is my neighbor?" would not include the time that Jesus himself directly answered that very question from a questioner. This happened in Luke chapter 14, and this article doesn't even allude to it. What gives?

25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "
28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'
36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"
37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

Jesus answered the question, "Who is my neighbor?" with a story about a man (who happened to be from a different race and religion I might add) who helped out a complete stranger who had been robbed, beaten, and left for dead. Jesus' answer to the question, "Who is my neighbor?" is NOT "a fellow believer," for Samaritans were not Jews- in fact they were despised by Jews and normally did not associate with them (as the incident between Jesus and the Samaritan woman in John chapter 4 shows).

Jesus' answer to the question, "Who is my neighbor?" is: "Whoever is in need."

Edited to add: The article says:

In light of the parable of the Good Samaritan, what is one supposed to do for a person in need like the man in the story? Should we act as the Levite did, and leave him lying in the gutter if he is not one of our Christian brothers? I'm sure the article isn't saying that is it?
Right on, Rando!

Jeannot
August 8th 2004, 10:42 AM
Yes, charity is immediate and heartfelt, not the result of some kind of theolotgical gameplaying.

Amazing Rando
August 9th 2004, 10:00 AM
Right on, Rando!

:teeth: :highfive: