Evil Spirits

[Rubia Warren]

Many different christians have many different opinions as to what role demons (or evil spirits) play in our lives. Many people, imho, tend to overdue it a bit by blaming most decisions and things that happen to us as some kind of demonic influence or activity, while others don't address it at all. I am somewhere in the middle. I know that they are real, and I know that we have an enemy that "seeks to devour", but I also know that many times in my life, I go through things as a result of a poor choice I have made. As I have said, I am somewhere in the middle, and I wanted to discuss with others what they think about evil spirits, and the role that they play in our lives. I'm not sure where this thread will go (or if it will even take off at all), so feel free to make your comments and expand on what I have just said.

[Freak]

La Rubia:
Many different christians have many different opinions as to what role demons (or evil spirits) play in our lives. Many people, imho, tend to overdue it a bit by blaming most decisions and things that happen to us as some kind of demonic influence or activity, while others don't address it at all. I am somewhere in the middle. I know that they are real, and I know that we have an enemy that "seeks to devour", but I also know that many times in my life, I go through things as a result of a poor choice I have made. As I have said, I am somewhere in the middle, and I wanted to discuss with others what they think about evil spirits, and the role that they play in our lives. I'm not sure where this thread will go (or if it will even take off at all), so feel free to make your comments and expand on what I have just said.

We need to moderate our postions. The Bible speaks of the flesh, the world, and demonic as being our enemies. To discount any of them would be a disservice to us and God's Word. We need to be aware of these wicked spirits for they are real and they do influence people. No wonder Paul tells in Ephesians 4 to not let the devil a "foothold"!

[Rubia Warren]

I think you are right, freak. But how are spirits affecting people other than an outright demon- possesion? In what ways are they causing problems for believers? The reason that I ask is that many people seem to think that everything that is happening to them is caused by the devil, when it is actually something that THEY in fact caused for themselves, then there are others who seem to act like the demons died out when the apostles did, too. How do we make a distinction and discern whether or not there is definitely spiritual activity regarding a problem we are facing? (I guess I could answer my own question by asking God for the gift of discernment- I didn't think of it until now).

[Gavin]

Ephesians 6
12For we are not fighting against people made of flesh and blood, but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against those mighty powers of darkness who rule this world, and against wicked spirits in the heavenly realms.

To discount demonic warfare is unscriptural. But so is the opposite extreme of seeing a demon behind every tree, and blaming all our problems on it. I agree with what I take Freak and La Rubia to be saying, that we have to have a balence and even-headedness in these matters, and discernment.

C. S. Lewis is wise in Screwtape to warn against outright naturalism AND an "excessive and unhealthy interest" the demonic.

Just food for thought.

[Gavin]

How do we make a distinction and discern whether or not there is definitely spiritual activity regarding a problem we are facing?
La Rubia:

I am not sure. That is one of the questions I have been trying to articulate to Freak. When do you know that a person is demonized, or just troubled by natural causes.

One thing to remember that a lot of times we don't need to be certain before about it. We can just pray for wisdom and keep doing the right thing, and trusting God to help us, because he knows.

:)

[Freak]

Gavin:
La Rubia:

I am not sure. That is one of the questions I have been trying to articulate to Freak. When do you know that a person is demonized, or just troubled by natural causes.

One thing to remember that a lot of times we don't need to be certain before about it. We can just pray for wisdom and keep doing the right thing, and trusting God to help us, because he knows.

:)

La Rubia--

There are various degrees of demonic affliction or demonization (control). Since evil spirits vary in power and wickedness, their degree of depravity differs from case to case. In detecting demonic activity one may look for the following characteristics: an extreme resistance to spiritual things, unfounded fear, alteration of the voice, spells of unconsciousness, aversion to prayer and God’s Word, supernatural strength, changes in facial demeanor, epileptic-like convulsions, anesthesia to pain, catatonic symptoms (i.e. falling down), clairvoyance abilities, and the ability to speak in languages not known to the individual experiencing the demonic affliction. These elements are not from the "world" or the "flesh" but rather from the world of the demonic.

[Reba]

Prov 3:4-7
4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
KJV


Over the years i have seen a thread of (spiritism) if a group of people are worshiping in the "GIFTS" living in the "GIFTS" working in the "GIFTS" then the same group of people seem to see, worry, think on demonic forces also.


Mark 9:41
41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
KJV

No evil is stronger then the power of GOD one cannot be long ot CHRIST and be "possesed" by demonic spirits


To discount demonic warfare is unscriptural. But so is the opposite extreme of seeing a demon behind every tree, and blaming all our problems on it. I agree with what I take Freak and La Rubia to be saying, that we have to have a balence and even-headedness in these matters, and discernment. well said Gavin

[Carl Smuda]

Freak mentioned characteristics. Reasonable for sure. But has anyone here ever experienced whatever the manifestation of "discerning of spirits" is? I was taught that that was revelation from God of the presense or absence of a spirit and whether or not you are allowed to cast it out. Freak, what about you? Have you ever been given some personal indication from the Lord regarding any situation? :hrm:

after I posted, I saw the "casting out devil spirits" thread. I'll have to read that.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

You think evil spirits are bad? How about ZOMBIE THREADS?????

[Tladatsi]

For me, I go back to what the BIble says on the subject. In the OT the words "evil spriits" are used only a few times, once in Jdg 9:23 and six times in 1 Sam 16 - 19. In each case, the Ruakh Raa (evil spirit) is said to have come from God. Through out the OT, the source of evil is God. Deuteronomy
30:15 says "See, I have set before thee this day life (ha-khayim) and good (ha-tob), and death (ha-mevet) and evil (ha-ra)" . In Judges 9:23 God sends an evil spirit (rukh raah) between Sechem and Abimelek as punishment for the crimes of Jerub-Baals sons. Four times in 1 Samuel 16
Saul is afflicted by an "evil sprit from God" (rukh-Elohim raah). In Neh 13:18 it says "? and did not our God bring all this evil (ha-raah) upon us ?". Job asks his wife rhetorically?"What? shall we receive good at the hand of
God, and shall we not [also] receive evil (ha-raa)" ! Isa 45:7 has Yahweh say "I form the light , and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil : I the LORD do all these [things]".

Evil and good are both tools in God's hand. He rewards good with good and evil with evil. Any evil spirit is serving God. At least that is what the Bible says.




Many different christians have many different opinions as to what role demons (or evil spirits) play in our lives. Many people, imho, tend to overdue it a bit by blaming most decisions and things that happen to us as some kind of demonic influence or activity, while others don't address it at all. I am somewhere in the middle. I know that they are real, and I know that we have an enemy that "seeks to devour", but I also know that many times in my life, I go through things as a result of a poor choice I have made. As I have said, I am somewhere in the middle, and I wanted to discuss with others what they think about evil spirits, and the role that they play in our lives. I'm not sure where this thread will go (or if it will even take off at all), so feel free to make your comments and expand on what I have just said.

[semmie'ssister]

Freak mentioned characteristics. Reasonable for sure. But has anyone here ever experienced whatever the manifestation of "discerning of spirits" is? I was taught that that was revelation from God of the presense or absence of a spirit and whether or not you are allowed to cast it out. Freak, what about you? Have you ever been given some personal indication from the Lord regarding any situation? :hrm:

after I posted, I saw the "casting out devil spirits" thread. I'll have to read that.

I have had first hand experiences with evil spirits. The first memory I have of having a relization of "good" and "evil" was from when I was about 4-5 years old. I beleive we were living in a house that belonged to the church that my father was preaching at, in North Dakota, on an Indian resevation. I remember meeting these three indian boys, I think we called them our "foster brothers" or maybe our "Indian brothers"? I am not real sure. But I remember that I had a fear of them that would make me sick inside. But at such a young age, it didn't make sense to me, and I'm still trying to sort out memories. But there was a spiritual presence about them, and I beleive that my spirit knew that, which is why I would become so sick inside.

Oh they were great fun, I remember we would all play together, and there were times that the fear was not so strong, but there were other times when I could not stand to be alone with them. But there were other times that I just can;t even explain......but there is one instance....the 3 brothers were in their room, which was in the basement. The basement was a scary place for a 4-5 year old, where my father would hang the deer, it was dark and it was cold....but I remember sitting at the top of the stairs, listtening, wanting desparatly to peek around the corner to see what was going on. And in a flash, my father had stepped over me, Bible in hand, as he paused long enough to tell me, "do not come down here, no matter what you hear!"

From the boys room in the basement, I heard 'bangs' and 'thumps' and earth shattering noises that I had never heard before! and then my father was gone, deep in the middle of flying furniture, and the boys being tossed around the basement like rag dolls! I peeked....and to this day, I wish I hadn't.

The screaming and the wailing and surrounding noises grew louder, as if what ever it was that was trapped in the basement was trying to free itself and invade teh entire house. The next thing I heard was my father, yelling at teh boys with the typical, "what's going on here?" And then he began to pray, and all I heard was, "In the name of Jesus, leave this house!" And he began repeating that over and over.....I caught my father's rythem and said with him, "in the name of Jesus, leave this house!" and all fell silent, except for the whimpers from the 3 indian boys now huddled together on the floor.

My father flew up the steps and left the house and went next door to the church. Not another word was said to me about that day. I don't even know if my mother knows about it, I think I mentioned it a time or two, but even still, I feel almost foolish for having a memory like that. This incident was not the first, or the last incident/memory I have of these boys, but it's the one that rings out in my memory as if it just happened. And shortly after that, one of the brothers had a bad snowmobile accident and they were taken to live with another family. I still have the wind-up teddy bear the oldest boy gave to me when they left our home.

As I got older, I had similar incidents. There was even a girl I went to high school with, and we (a group of christian teens) ended up praying over this girl, but I'll save that for another day. The majority of my memory of these events consist of my repeating a simple phrase, "in the name of Jesus, demons you must leave!"

I almost dont want to share this memory, becasue I haven't told anyone yet, but for the sake of this topic, I will share....after my husband and I were married and we moved into our first home (in Okinawa) I remember that the first night I didn't sleep well, and the second night I awoke to the overpowering feeling that I was being held down. My arms and legs would not move, my mouth felt as if it was being held shut, and all I could do was listen to the hissing sounds I heard moving through the room and shift my eyes from side to side. At first I tried to reason that we were living in Japanese houses, there were bugs, they made noise, go back to sleep....but I couldn't sleep. So I began to pray, at first I couldn't form the words, as if whatever force was holding me down was also holding my tounge to prevent me from speaking, but as I continued to pray I began to repeat "I claim this house in Jesus name, Satan leave!" And one those words rolled off my mouth, the pressure that had been holding me still was gone.

I sometimes think these last few paragraphs are reasons I don't stick with writing in a journal. In a world so filled with people being "labeled" with pysc disorders, I am a little worried my own family may have me committed. (wow, I can't beleive I just said that.)

[George Blaisdell]

You think evil spirits are bad? How about ZOMBIE THREADS?????
With or without pesto?

The thing we need to remember about evil spirits is that we have a guardian angel, and if we choose to send off the evil one, that guardian will keep him off... But if we open the door a little, we will get into a whole lot of trouble, for that little crack that we open up voluntarily, even with just so little an entertaining of the idea of the attraction of that sin, ties the hands of our guardian, and then we have a big time fight on our hands...

So that out intellect is the guard dog of our soul - It stands watch, and immediately, without hesitation, attacks and drives out ANY demonic uprising or image or thought... Demons hate an aroused intellect that hates them... "Be angry, and do not sin..." is the instruction... One cannot be mentally adrift and fight resist sin... The intellect is to be disciplined to its vigilant role...

Arsenios

[suffer for joy]

one cannot be long ot CHRIST and be "possesed" by demonic spirits

This is simply not true.

I have an acquaintance who is apart of a revival in a South American country, and out of all of the demons that 'manifest' during these meetings (of thousands of people) 90% of these people are Christian. A Christian can be demonically oppressed, influenced, and possessed.

Jesus said that whoever sins is a slave of sin. The question isn't can Christians be bound by demonic influence, the question is, in what area are they.

[Ryokan]

I am very very skeptical of people with "evil spirit" and "gifts" testimonies, because only people who belong to groups that already believe in such things experience them. Mostly, at least. I don't deny the possibiity of it all together, but I think if it happens, its very rare, and not something worth the concern alot of churches place on it. our sin is our sin. No demons makin' us do it.

[Darth Executor]

I have had first hand experiences with evil spirits. The first memory I have of having a relization of "good" and "evil" was from when I was about 4-5 years old. I beleive we were living in a house that belonged to the church that my father was preaching at, in North Dakota, on an Indian resevation. I remember meeting these three indian boys, I think we called them our "foster brothers" or maybe our "Indian brothers"? I am not real sure. But I remember that I had a fear of them that would make me sick inside. But at such a young age, it didn't make sense to me, and I'm still trying to sort out memories. But there was a spiritual presence about them, and I beleive that my spirit knew that, which is why I would become so sick inside.

Oh they were great fun, I remember we would all play together, and there were times that the fear was not so strong, but there were other times when I could not stand to be alone with them. But there were other times that I just can;t even explain......but there is one instance....the 3 brothers were in their room, which was in the basement. The basement was a scary place for a 4-5 year old, where my father would hang the deer, it was dark and it was cold....but I remember sitting at the top of the stairs, listtening, wanting desparatly to peek around the corner to see what was going on. And in a flash, my father had stepped over me, Bible in hand, as he paused long enough to tell me, "do not come down here, no matter what you hear!"

From the boys room in the basement, I heard 'bangs' and 'thumps' and earth shattering noises that I had never heard before! and then my father was gone, deep in the middle of flying furniture, and the boys being tossed around the basement like rag dolls! I peeked....and to this day, I wish I hadn't.

The screaming and the wailing and surrounding noises grew louder, as if what ever it was that was trapped in the basement was trying to free itself and invade teh entire house. The next thing I heard was my father, yelling at teh boys with the typical, "what's going on here?" And then he began to pray, and all I heard was, "In the name of Jesus, leave this house!" And he began repeating that over and over.....I caught my father's rythem and said with him, "in the name of Jesus, leave this house!" and all fell silent, except for the whimpers from the 3 indian boys now huddled together on the floor.

My father flew up the steps and left the house and went next door to the church. Not another word was said to me about that day. I don't even know if my mother knows about it, I think I mentioned it a time or two, but even still, I feel almost foolish for having a memory like that. This incident was not the first, or the last incident/memory I have of these boys, but it's the one that rings out in my memory as if it just happened. And shortly after that, one of the brothers had a bad snowmobile accident and they were taken to live with another family. I still have the wind-up teddy bear the oldest boy gave to me when they left our home.

As I got older, I had similar incidents. There was even a girl I went to high school with, and we (a group of christian teens) ended up praying over this girl, but I'll save that for another day. The majority of my memory of these events consist of my repeating a simple phrase, "in the name of Jesus, demons you must leave!"

I almost dont want to share this memory, becasue I haven't told anyone yet, but for the sake of this topic, I will share....after my husband and I were married and we moved into our first home (in Okinawa) I remember that the first night I didn't sleep well, and the second night I awoke to the overpowering feeling that I was being held down. My arms and legs would not move, my mouth felt as if it was being held shut, and all I could do was listen to the hissing sounds I heard moving through the room and shift my eyes from side to side. At first I tried to reason that we were living in Japanese houses, there were bugs, they made noise, go back to sleep....but I couldn't sleep. So I began to pray, at first I couldn't form the words, as if whatever force was holding me down was also holding my tounge to prevent me from speaking, but as I continued to pray I began to repeat "I claim this house in Jesus name, Satan leave!" And one those words rolled off my mouth, the pressure that had been holding me still was gone.

I sometimes think these last few paragraphs are reasons I don't stick with writing in a journal. In a world so filled with people being "labeled" with pysc disorders, I am a little worried my own family may have me committed. (wow, I can't beleive I just said that.)

Whoa...

[Secretary of the Navy Sparko]

You think evil spirits are bad? How about ZOMBIE THREADS?????

Bad Theonomy! Resurrecting a dead thread!
:whip:

[furay]

I almost dont want to share this memory, becasue I haven't told anyone yet, but for the sake of this topic, I will share....after my husband and I were married and we moved into our first home (in Okinawa) I remember that the first night I didn't sleep well, and the second night I awoke to the overpowering feeling that I was being held down. My arms and legs would not move, my mouth felt as if it was being held shut, and all I could do was listen to the hissing sounds I heard moving through the room and shift my eyes from side to side. At first I tried to reason that we were living in Japanese houses, there were bugs, they made noise, go back to sleep....but I couldn't sleep. So I began to pray, at first I couldn't form the words, as if whatever force was holding me down was also holding my tounge to prevent me from speaking, but as I continued to pray I began to repeat "I claim this house in Jesus name, Satan leave!" And one those words rolled off my mouth, the pressure that had been holding me still was gone.
This has happened to me more than a few times. Scary as all get out. The technical term for it is "sleep paralysis", but I haven't written off demonic oppression.

[Secretary of the Navy Sparko]

This has happened to me more than a few times. Scary as all get out. The technical term for it is "sleep paralysis", but I haven't written off demonic oppression.

Yeah I suffer from sleep paralysis too. runs in my family. I can even tell when its gonna happen sometime. Its not as scary when you know what's going on. It basically happens when your body falls asleep while your mind is still conscious. When you sleep, your mind disconnects from your body so you don't act out your dreams (sleep walking is when your body doesnt disconnect). Usually with sleep paralysis, you are not fully conscious, but kinda drowsy, falling asleep, and bam! your body disconnects and you realize you can't move! Sometimes your half asleep mind will also hear audible hallucinations, like whispers, which makes it even more scary. Usually you will feel like something evil is present or someone is standing behind you. This is typical paranoid response to feeling helpless.

Sleep paralysis is thought to be a key component in a lot of demon possession and alien abduction stories. It can feel pretty scary.

However, once I knew what was going on, I just relaxed and kinda 'explored' the experience. Usually, if I let myself go, I can fall asleep and enter a dream state while conscious, in what is known as "lucid" dreaming. Where you are in a dream but KNOW you are dreaming. Then you can really have fun. Its kinda like being Neo in your very own Matrix. You can control the dream if you try.

[PennyDreadful]

As I got older, I had similar incidents. There was even a girl I went to high school with, and we (a group of christian teens) ended up praying over this girl, but I'll save that for another day.

Ain't no day like today. ^.^ I'd like to hear about it, but only if you're willing to tell, of course.

[Tladatsi]

In the Middle Ages it was thought to be caused by a demon named Incubus who sat on the chest of the female sleepers, sometimes raping them. Sleep paralysis is often associcated with hypnagogic and hypnopompic hallucination, although these can occur with anyone falling asleep.

Yeah I suffer from sleep paralysis too. runs in my family. I can even tell when its gonna happen sometime. Its not as scary when you know what's going on. It basically happens when your body falls asleep while your mind is still conscious. When you sleep, your mind disconnects from your body so you don't act out your dreams (sleep walking is when your body doesnt disconnect). Usually with sleep paralysis, you are not fully conscious, but kinda drowsy, falling asleep, and bam! your body disconnects and you realize you can't move! Sometimes your half asleep mind will also hear audible hallucinations, like whispers, which makes it even more scary. Usually you will feel like something evil is present or someone is standing behind you. This is typical paranoid response to feeling helpless.

Sleep paralysis is thought to be a key component in a lot of demon possession and alien abduction stories. It can feel pretty scary.

However, once I knew what was going on, I just relaxed and kinda 'explored' the experience. Usually, if I let myself go, I can fall asleep and enter a dream state while conscious, in what is known as "lucid" dreaming. Where you are in a dream but KNOW you are dreaming. Then you can really have fun. Its kinda like being Neo in your very own Matrix. You can control the dream if you try.

[GreatWhiteHype2]

I am very very skeptical of people with "evil spirit" and "gifts" testimonies, because only people who belong to groups that already believe in such things experience them. Mostly, at least. I don't deny the possibiity of it all together, but I think if it happens, its very rare, and not something worth the concern alot of churches place on it. our sin is our sin. No demons makin' us do it.

Power of a worldview, my friend. Power of a worldview. We live in a therapeutic society heavily influenced by the thought of Freud and Jung that provides no room for the demonic and the spiritual. Jung spoke often of embracing our "shadow" side in order to find wholeness...I contend that many more than we think of those we have committed to mental institutions are suffering from demonization on some level. So you and I aren't exposed to them because they're sitting in a straitjacket in a padded room instead of cavorting out on the streets.

Need a practical example? A lady named Judith MacNutt (married to healing prayer pioneer Francis MacNutt), BEFORE incorporating into her worldview the reality of the demonic, worked in a mental hospital in the Northeast. She found that the hospital had some that were able to cope and get better and others who went through the same cycles, were released for a time, but eventually returned with the same basic issues (be they paranoid schizophrenia, multiple personality, etc). One day she decided she would pray for these folks who were making little to no progress up to this point, and would make sure to pray for the worst because she didn't expect anything to happen. So she prayed for them...amazingly, over the next few weeks, as she consistently prayed for their healing, they made rapid improvements in their treatments and eventually found a tremendous level of healing. MacNutt' superior was blown away and called her in to figure out how they had experienced such tremendous progress. She told him, hesitating, that she had prayed for them. He immediately responded by deriding her for allowing herself to be invested so deeply in their issues (this was at a time where the practice of "doubling" was deeply encouraged in psychology). Needless to say, he brought her down a few notches.

Afterwards, now having been awakened to the reality of the power of healing prayer, Judith heard of a man who claimed each night he was visited by Satan at 12 midnight...in the past, she had scoffed at such remarks, but she suggested that some staff of the hospital should stop by the man's room just before 12 and observe if they recognized anything different. The orderlies stopped by, and at 12 sharp, they felt a sharp gust of icy-cold air sweep out of the room, and as they watched through the window, the man sat straight up in his bed and talked to an entity at the foot of his bed that the orderlies could not see. These folks got scared out of their gourd by the experience, and fled the scene and told Judith about the experience the next day when she came into her shift...pretty freaky freaky, eh?

I quoted this example because it's fairly easy to deny the existence of the demonic in a society where no room is made for its existence. Anything can be rationalized to fit a worldview, even cases of young, small patients at my local mental hospital tossing nurses around like toothpicks while exhibiting ten or twenty-fold the strength their bodies should carry.

Having said what I have said, the quote from C.S. Lewis posted earlier is a great guiding influence for us in looking into the demonic: that we should avoid an unhealthy obsession with it. On the other hand, the bulk of society rests on the opposite extreme, so someone needs to be speaking up and finding that middle place with a viewpoint that is faithful to Biblical revelation and balanced and healthy..

[semmie'ssister]

I wonder sometimes if medical personnel come up with these classifications to justify things they just don’t know or understand. I could be wrong, and the sleep paralysis seems to be a logical explanation of these sorts of events. But I did a little reading, and there’s a lot I don’t understand about it, and it happened to me only once, and during a time in my “sleep pattern” that is unsupported by what I’ve read about sleep paralysis. Not to say that that’s not what it was, but I would more likely believe in the demonic version of the story than the reasoning that it’s an actual sleep condition. Now perhaps for some who experience this sort of thing often, it may be more believable to accept the sleep paralysis explanation. I’m just not totally convinced.

As for this girl I knew in high school, we went to the same church, were in the same orchestra, and so we became friends. But after awhile she began dabbling in cult-like things. Now I’m no expert on what is cult-like, but keep in mind I was 16 at the time, so my perception and knowledge was somewhat limited.

Anyway, as she began to “experiment”, as she called it, with such acts as “willing” things to happen purely through her thoughts and desires for things to happen, I began to feel an uneasiness when I was around her. And when I looked her in the eye, it was as I was seeing two sets of eyes. Obviously she didn’t have two sets of eyes, but the only way I can explain it was as if my spiritual eyes were seeing another set of spiritual eyes looking back at me. Strange sounding, I know, which again is why I haven’t shared a lot of these experiences.

So as the months went by, she began to avoid me. Not because she wanted to, but because, as she put it, she couldn’t help it, she just felt this force keeping her from me. A few times when she would come to sit by me to have lunch, she would have these attacks, similar to panic attacks, but according to her, she felt fine, and she couldn’t help it, and each time this had happened, those eyes were just starring at me.

So then one night a group of us teens were having a bible study/prayer meeting, and this girl shows up. She had told us that she was struggling with things, and getting herself into more trouble, and she just couldn’t stand to be around any of us anymore, but she desparately wanted to be with us. We began praying over her, I don’t know how it started whether she asked us to pray for her, or if we just bombarded her or what, but I remember when we started praying, she became panicy and tried to leave, but we cornered her and prayed for her for hours. And during the time we spent in prayer, she appeared to be having seizure like attacks, and would scream, and fight against us to get away. What I believe were evil spirits within her indicated their names were “pride”, “greed”, “selfishness”, and I can’t remember the others.

Was it real? Was she putting on a show? I don’t have all the answers. But at that time, when I was 16 years old, I truly believed that she was a victim of demonic possessions. I don’t remember all the details, and I am not sharing this story because I want to draw attention to myself and proclaim to be all spiritual and discerning of spirits. However, I cannot deny the events, and to me there were very real, and I do believe that I have a gift of discerning of spirits. And all the events that have happened to me are my evidence of that.

[Ryokan]

I wonder sometimes if medical personnel come up with these classifications to justify things they just don’t know or understand. I could be wrong, and the sleep paralysis seems to be a logical explanation of these sorts of events. But I did a little reading, and there’s a lot I don’t understand about it, and it happened to me only once, and during a time in my “sleep pattern” that is unsupported by what I’ve read about sleep paralysis. Not to say that that’s not what it was, but I would more likely believe in the demonic version of the story than the reasoning that it’s an actual sleep condition. Now perhaps for some who experience this sort of thing often, it may be more believable to accept the sleep paralysis explanation. I’m just not totally convinced.

As for this girl I knew in high school, we went to the same church, were in the same orchestra, and so we became friends. But after awhile she began dabbling in cult-like things. Now I’m no expert on what is cult-like, but keep in mind I was 16 at the time, so my perception and knowledge was somewhat limited.

Anyway, as she began to “experiment”, as she called it, with such acts as “willing” things to happen purely through her thoughts and desires for things to happen, I began to feel an uneasiness when I was around her. And when I looked her in the eye, it was as I was seeing two sets of eyes. Obviously she didn’t have two sets of eyes, but the only way I can explain it was as if my spiritual eyes were seeing another set of spiritual eyes looking back at me. Strange sounding, I know, which again is why I haven’t shared a lot of these experiences.

So as the months went by, she began to avoid me. Not because she wanted to, but because, as she put it, she couldn’t help it, she just felt this force keeping her from me. A few times when she would come to sit by me to have lunch, she would have these attacks, similar to panic attacks, but according to her, she felt fine, and she couldn’t help it, and each time this had happened, those eyes were just starring at me.

So then one night a group of us teens were having a bible study/prayer meeting, and this girl shows up. She had told us that she was struggling with things, and getting herself into more trouble, and she just couldn’t stand to be around any of us anymore, but she desparately wanted to be with us. We began praying over her, I don’t know how it started whether she asked us to pray for her, or if we just bombarded her or what, but I remember when we started praying, she became panicy and tried to leave, but we cornered her and prayed for her for hours. And during the time we spent in prayer, she appeared to be having seizure like attacks, and would scream, and fight against us to get away. What I believe were evil spirits within her indicated their names were “pride”, “greed”, “selfishness”, and I can’t remember the others.

Was it real? Was she putting on a show? I don’t have all the answers. But at that time, when I was 16 years old, I truly believed that she was a victim of demonic possessions. I don’t remember all the details, and I am not sharing this story because I want to draw attention to myself and proclaim to be all spiritual and discerning of spirits. However, I cannot deny the events, and to me there were very real, and I do believe that I have a gift of discerning of spirits. And all the events that have happened to me are my evidence of that.
I had a cousin and a girlfriend who had negative and positive "supernatural" experiences after dabbling in the occult, and they both, years later, admitted it was crap. Sometimes, we all feel the need to dramatize our lives. But our struggle to follow the way is drama enough without demons.

[Ryokan]

Power of a worldview, my friend. Power of a worldview. We live in a therapeutic society heavily influenced by the thought of Freud and Jung that provides no room for the demonic and the spiritual. Jung spoke often of embracing our "shadow" side in order to find wholeness...I contend that many more than we think of those we have committed to mental institutions are suffering from demonization on some level. So you and I aren't exposed to them because they're sitting in a straitjacket in a padded room instead of cavorting out on the streets.

Need a practical example? A lady named Judith MacNutt (married to healing prayer pioneer Francis MacNutt), BEFORE incorporating into her worldview the reality of the demonic, worked in a mental hospital in the Northeast. She found that the hospital had some that were able to cope and get better and others who went through the same cycles, were released for a time, but eventually returned with the same basic issues (be they paranoid schizophrenia, multiple personality, etc). One day she decided she would pray for these folks who were making little to no progress up to this point, and would make sure to pray for the worst because she didn't expect anything to happen. So she prayed for them...amazingly, over the next few weeks, as she consistently prayed for their healing, they made rapid improvements in their treatments and eventually found a tremendous level of healing. MacNutt' superior was blown away and called her in to figure out how they had experienced such tremendous progress. She told him, hesitating, that she had prayed for them. He immediately responded by deriding her for allowing herself to be invested so deeply in their issues (this was at a time where the practice of "doubling" was deeply encouraged in psychology). Needless to say, he brought her down a few notches.

Afterwards, now having been awakened to the reality of the power of healing prayer, Judith heard of a man who claimed each night he was visited by Satan at 12 midnight...in the past, she had scoffed at such remarks, but she suggested that some staff of the hospital should stop by the man's room just before 12 and observe if they recognized anything different. The orderlies stopped by, and at 12 sharp, they felt a sharp gust of icy-cold air sweep out of the room, and as they watched through the window, the man sat straight up in his bed and talked to an entity at the foot of his bed that the orderlies could not see. These folks got scared out of their gourd by the experience, and fled the scene and told Judith about the experience the next day when she came into her shift...pretty freaky freaky, eh?

I quoted this example because it's fairly easy to deny the existence of the demonic in a society where no room is made for its existence. Anything can be rationalized to fit a worldview, even cases of young, small patients at my local mental hospital tossing nurses around like toothpicks while exhibiting ten or twenty-fold the strength their bodies should carry.

Having said what I have said, the quote from C.S. Lewis posted earlier is a great guiding influence for us in looking into the demonic: that we should avoid an unhealthy obsession with it. On the other hand, the bulk of society rests on the opposite extreme, so someone needs to be speaking up and finding that middle place with a viewpoint that is faithful to Biblical revelation and balanced and healthy.. The problem is, these dramatic cases and prayer are nontestible and have widely varying eyewitness accounts. Truth is, we don't demons in our world view, (though they can fit) we don't have any systemized, testable way to understand them (which could be because it is supernatural). And we lack large numbers of witnesses with similiar stories in most cases. Many miracles with supernatural elements have
better documentation. Truth is, I don't think we can say either way, and we don't need demons to pray for the sick. So, until personally confronted with one, why give them concern?

[Darth Executor]

I wonder sometimes if medical personnel come up with these classifications to justify things they just don’t know or understand. I could be wrong, and the sleep paralysis seems to be a logical explanation of these sorts of events. But I did a little reading, and there’s a lot I don’t understand about it, and it happened to me only once, and during a time in my “sleep pattern” that is unsupported by what I’ve read about sleep paralysis. Not to say that that’s not what it was, but I would more likely believe in the demonic version of the story than the reasoning that it’s an actual sleep condition. Now perhaps for some who experience this sort of thing often, it may be more believable to accept the sleep paralysis explanation. I’m just not totally convinced.

As for this girl I knew in high school, we went to the same church, were in the same orchestra, and so we became friends. But after awhile she began dabbling in cult-like things. Now I’m no expert on what is cult-like, but keep in mind I was 16 at the time, so my perception and knowledge was somewhat limited.

Anyway, as she began to “experiment”, as she called it, with such acts as “willing” things to happen purely through her thoughts and desires for things to happen, I began to feel an uneasiness when I was around her. And when I looked her in the eye, it was as I was seeing two sets of eyes. Obviously she didn’t have two sets of eyes, but the only way I can explain it was as if my spiritual eyes were seeing another set of spiritual eyes looking back at me. Strange sounding, I know, which again is why I haven’t shared a lot of these experiences.

So as the months went by, she began to avoid me. Not because she wanted to, but because, as she put it, she couldn’t help it, she just felt this force keeping her from me. A few times when she would come to sit by me to have lunch, she would have these attacks, similar to panic attacks, but according to her, she felt fine, and she couldn’t help it, and each time this had happened, those eyes were just starring at me.

So then one night a group of us teens were having a bible study/prayer meeting, and this girl shows up. She had told us that she was struggling with things, and getting herself into more trouble, and she just couldn’t stand to be around any of us anymore, but she desparately wanted to be with us. We began praying over her, I don’t know how it started whether she asked us to pray for her, or if we just bombarded her or what, but I remember when we started praying, she became panicy and tried to leave, but we cornered her and prayed for her for hours. And during the time we spent in prayer, she appeared to be having seizure like attacks, and would scream, and fight against us to get away. What I believe were evil spirits within her indicated their names were “pride”, “greed”, “selfishness”, and I can’t remember the others.

Was it real? Was she putting on a show? I don’t have all the answers. But at that time, when I was 16 years old, I truly believed that she was a victim of demonic possessions. I don’t remember all the details, and I am not sharing this story because I want to draw attention to myself and proclaim to be all spiritual and discerning of spirits. However, I cannot deny the events, and to me there were very real, and I do believe that I have a gift of discerning of spirits. And all the events that have happened to me are my evidence of that.

Do you know what cult she was involved with?

[TuckEverlasting]

One of the things that first got me interested in Christianity happened to me maybe 5 years ago when I was first interested in spiritual things and I was starting to get involved in what I might now call an 'alternative religion'. I don't really want to go into detail, but while I was first becoming involved in this thing I had an experience that really scared me... I think because it was maybe the first 'spiritual-feeling' experience I had ever had and it was not a positive one... it really scared me. I think it was my first clue that 'alternative spirituality' is not just 'another way to "God"'.

Of course, it very well may have been more my imagination than anything. But after having had a couple more spiritual experiences since then, I'm inclined to think it may indeed have been an evil spirit. I know Ryo is skeptical, and that's fine... but at the time that this happened, I don't think I even believed in the reality of evil spirits. It's funny... I now know what semmie'ssister is talking about when she mentions that 'feeling' of a 'presence'.

[Darth Executor]

One of the things that first got me interested in Christianity happened to me maybe 5 years ago when I was first interested in spiritual things and I was starting to get involved in what I might now call an 'alternative religion'. I don't really want to go into detail, but while I was first becoming involved in this thing I had an experience that really scared me... I think because it was maybe the first 'spiritual-feeling' experience I had ever had and it was not a positive one... it really scared me. I think it was my first clue that 'alternative spirituality' is not just 'another way to "God"'.


Care to elaborate on your experience?

[TuckEverlasting]

I'm sorry, Darth, but not really. I know that sounds like a cop-out, but there are a couple of spiritual things (or, what I *think* were spiritual things) that have happened to me that I don't really want to discuss beyond that. Sorry again.

[semmie'ssister]

Do you know what cult she was involved with?

I don't have a clue. I was 16, it's possible my perception at that time of "cult" activities was warped. But I later read Dr. Dobson's book titled Satanism, and a couple other books that I can't recall, that just really made me conclude it was all real.

For me, not beleiving that evil spirits exist and are roaming the earth casusing their problems, would be like not beleiving that Satan exists. I don't have to follow Satan, or any of that, but as a Christian, I cannot deny his and his demons existance.

Did I answer your question?

I have other experiences of this nature, too. And I don't like drama. I don't like being in the spotlight, I hate being called on in class. I don't know how many other ways to express for those who may doubt my perception of reality that I am not trying to create drama in my life.

[Darth Executor]

Did I answer your question?


No. :tongue:

But if you can't remember I guess there's nothing I can do about it.

[Darth Executor]

I'm sorry, Darth, but not really. I know that sounds like a cop-out, but there are a couple of spiritual things (or, what I *think* were spiritual things) that have happened to me that I don't really want to discuss beyond that. Sorry again.

That's ok.

[Ryokan]

I don't have a clue. I was 16, it's possible my perception at that time of "cult" activities was warped. But I later read Dr. Dobson's book titled Satanism, and a couple other books that I can't recall, that just really made me conclude it was all real.

For me, not beleiving that evil spirits exist and are roaming the earth casusing their problems, would be like not beleiving that Satan exists. I don't have to follow Satan, or any of that, but as a Christian, I cannot deny his and his demons existance.

Did I answer your question?

I have other experiences of this nature, too. And I don't like drama. I don't like being in the spotlight, I hate being called on in class. I don't know how many other ways to express for those who may doubt my perception of reality that I am not trying to create drama in my life.I am not accusing you, just pointing out my experience. My thoughts: Lots of demon stuff= hoaxes, mental illness, or unverifiable. So, talk to a shrink first if it really bothers you. if they can't fix it, then maybe more steps are needed. Biggest worry for Christians is our own sinful nature, not demons. Take everything Dobson says with a grain of salt. He is a so so religious leader but just awful with science and psychology. Sound good?

[Calvinist4Him]

Many different christians have many different opinions as to what role demons (or evil spirits) play in our lives. Many people, imho, tend to overdue it a bit by blaming most decisions and things that happen to us as some kind of demonic influence or activity, while others don't address it at all. I am somewhere in the middle. I know that they are real, and I know that we have an enemy that "seeks to devour", but I also know that many times in my life, I go through things as a result of a poor choice I have made. As I have said, I am somewhere in the middle, and I wanted to discuss with others what they think about evil spirits, and the role that they play in our lives. I'm not sure where this thread will go (or if it will even take off at all), so feel free to make your comments and expand on what I have just said.

Like it or lump it, we're all in the middle of an ongoing war between God and satan. The angels of Heaven are involved, as are the condemned fallen angels.

Secular psychology would naturalize every bit of supernatural phenomena to the point that it's "all in your head". With my Christian presuppositions, I've come to think that the argument from moral evil implies the existence of satan, which then becomes an argument for the existence of YAHWEH. It could be argued that all the existence of evil implies is the existence of an evil god. But then, we read in 2 Cor 4:4 "in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

Anyway, I would only add that while a Christian can be influenced by, no Christian can be demon possessed, because Christians are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. No true Christian, can use the excuse; "the devil made me do it". The devil may have tempted you, but you gave into the temptation out of the desires of your heart. Giving into temptations can lead to loss of assurance and doubt. But...

2 Thes 3:3 "...the Lord is faithful, and He will strengthen and protect you from the evil one."

[Ryokan]

Like it or lump it, we're all in the middle of an ongoing war between God and satan. The angels of Heaven are involved, as are the condemned fallen angels.

Secular psychology would naturalize every bit of supernatural phenomena to the point that it's "all in your head". With my Christian presuppositions, I've come to think that the argument from moral evil implies the existence of satan, which then becomes an argument for the existence of YAHWEH. It could be argued that all the existence of evil implies is the existence of an evil god. But then, we read in 2 Cor 4:4 "in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

Anyway, I would only add that while a Christian can be influenced by, no Christian can be demon possessed, because Christians are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. No true Christian, can use the excuse; "the devil made me do it". The devil may have tempted you, but you gave into the temptation out of the desires of your heart. Giving into temptations can lead to loss of assurance and doubt. But...

2 Thes 3:3 "...the Lord is faithful, and He will strengthen and protect you from the evil one."
The belief in a Christian diety hardly necessitates demons as a regular cause of mental illness or other such events.

[Rubia Warren]

Who said it had connections with mental illness?

[Ryokan]

Who said it had connections with mental illness?
This is generally the fight, demonic vs. schizophrenia, nerve disorders, depression, etc. All I am saying is, exhaust your medical options before you hire an exorcist. God generally acts in this world (likie 99.99999% of the time(made up on the spot, of course:teeth:)) in a naturalistic way. He created the rules for a reason, and seems reluctant to regularly break them. So, when something happens, it seems to me safer to assume it has a natural explaination, rather than divine or demonic.

[Rubia Warren]

Oh cuz I was gonna say, that really wasn't something I was getting at in the OP. :outtie:

[Ryokan]

Oh cuz I was gonna say, that really wasn't something I was getting at in the OP. :outtie:
I'm sorry, I wandered somewhat afield.

[Ryokan]

Oh cuz I was gonna say, that really wasn't something I was getting at in the OP. :outtie:
My opinion on your OP, as I stated earlier, is that a. God not big on dramatic supernatural displays. They happen very rarely. b. Most of what has historically been attributed to demons is now treated in a superior fashion with naturalistic methods. c. The testimony on demonic activity is lacking. d. demons, gifts, etc. simply don't happen regularly to people who aren't in social groups that already accept such things.

[Darth Executor]

My opinion on your OP, as I stated earlier, is that a. God not big on dramatic supernatural displays. They happen very rarely. b. Most of what has historically been attributed to demons is now treated in a superior fashion with naturalistic methods. c. The testimony on demonic activity is lacking. d. demons, gifts, etc. simply don't happen regularly to people who aren't in social groups that already accept such things.

If you were Satan, would you bother people who don't believe in you?

[Ryokan]

If you were Satan, would you bother people who don't believe in you?
Honestly, if I was Satan, I'd start a religion, perform miracles, seize power in the US or Russia, and destroy the world at the height of my false religions power. It's impossible to conjecture what Satan, however he exist, would or wouldn't do. I don't see why I wouldn't harm those who disbelieve.

[Darth Executor]

Honestly, if I was Satan, I'd start a religion, perform miracles, seize power in the US or Russia, and destroy the world at the height of my false religions power. It's impossible to conjecture what Satan, however he exist, would or wouldn't do.

Or how much power he has...


I don't see why I wouldn't harm those who disbelieve.

Because they're yours already. Why give them a reason to run to God?

[GreatWhiteHype2]

If you were Satan, would you bother people who don't believe in you?

Tremendous point. The aforementioned C.S. Lewis also said (paraphrasing) "Satan's greatest accomplishment was convincing the world he doesn't exist."

My point would be, Ryokan, that we shouldn't overemploy empirical science and "testable" evidence...we sure do like to impose boundaries and "natural law" and other limits on God that, honestly, don't jive with the Biblical account of a dynamic, intimate God acting on behalf of his people for justice, etc. That's why the Catholic contention of natural theology (we know God exists by the creation around us) is so suspect...if the case of natural theology is so strong, we wouldn't have so many people in the world who either a. don't give a rat's patooty or b. use creation to argue vehemently AGAINST the existence of God. We impose modernity's systems of thought, disciplines of study, and presuppositions onto the Biblical narrative and in-so-doing create a man-made image of God and his expectations for his people.

However, I do agree with you that we shouldn't jump to conclusions concerning demonization. Mental illness and demonization are two different things, and the issue should be tread on very lightly. One of my teachers at seminary has an effective ministry in partnership with a local Christian counseling center where if modern psychotherapeutic methods or medication aren't working in a client's life, they start to explore other options. Over the last decade, they have expelled multiple demons from those affected. And I'd call him the most balanced teacher I have at the seminary. As far as empirical info-gathering goes, if you and I are willing to look, we'd find far too much evidence of the demonic in a systematic study of layers of Western society to discount the demonic out of hand...I'd suggest we let the Biblical narrative speak for itself in this regard.

[Calvinist4Him]

The belief in a Christian diety hardly necessitates demons as a regular cause of mental illness or other such events.

Where did I make that claim? At any rate, you may disagree, but I think demons are more involved in mental illness than secular psychologists would like to admit. I'm not suggesting that they're always involved, I will not pretend to know every case, but I do know what I've read in the gospels, and I believe what the Scriptures teach above all else.

According to the Scriptures, God, angels, Satan, fallen angels (demons) all exist. I'm not here to convince you of anything, I'm just stating the facts.

[Cynic Sage]

I have had first hand experiences with evil spirits. The first memory I have of having a relization of "good" and "evil" was from when I was about 4-5 years old. I beleive we were living in a house that belonged to the church that my father was preaching at, in North Dakota, on an Indian resevation. I remember meeting these three indian boys, I think we called them our "foster brothers" or maybe our "Indian brothers"? I am not real sure. But I remember that I had a fear of them that would make me sick inside. But at such a young age, it didn't make sense to me, and I'm still trying to sort out memories. But there was a spiritual presence about them, and I beleive that my spirit knew that, which is why I would become so sick inside.

Oh they were great fun, I remember we would all play together, and there were times that the fear was not so strong, but there were other times when I could not stand to be alone with them. But there were other times that I just can;t even explain......but there is one instance....the 3 brothers were in their room, which was in the basement. The basement was a scary place for a 4-5 year old, where my father would hang the deer, it was dark and it was cold....but I remember sitting at the top of the stairs, listtening, wanting desparatly to peek around the corner to see what was going on. And in a flash, my father had stepped over me, Bible in hand, as he paused long enough to tell me, "do not come down here, no matter what you hear!"

From the boys room in the basement, I heard 'bangs' and 'thumps' and earth shattering noises that I had never heard before! and then my father was gone, deep in the middle of flying furniture, and the boys being tossed around the basement like rag dolls! I peeked....and to this day, I wish I hadn't.

The screaming and the wailing and surrounding noises grew louder, as if what ever it was that was trapped in the basement was trying to free itself and invade teh entire house. The next thing I heard was my father, yelling at teh boys with the typical, "what's going on here?" And then he began to pray, and all I heard was, "In the name of Jesus, leave this house!" And he began repeating that over and over.....I caught my father's rythem and said with him, "in the name of Jesus, leave this house!" and all fell silent, except for the whimpers from the 3 indian boys now huddled together on the floor.

My father flew up the steps and left the house and went next door to the church. Not another word was said to me about that day. I don't even know if my mother knows about it, I think I mentioned it a time or two, but even still, I feel almost foolish for having a memory like that. This incident was not the first, or the last incident/memory I have of these boys, but it's the one that rings out in my memory as if it just happened. And shortly after that, one of the brothers had a bad snowmobile accident and they were taken to live with another family. I still have the wind-up teddy bear the oldest boy gave to me when they left our home.

As I got older, I had similar incidents. There was even a girl I went to high school with, and we (a group of christian teens) ended up praying over this girl, but I'll save that for another day. The majority of my memory of these events consist of my repeating a simple phrase, "in the name of Jesus, demons you must leave!"

Interesting. You were rather young when it happend. Did you ever discuss what happened then with your father when you were older?

I almost dont want to share this memory, becasue I haven't told anyone yet, but for the sake of this topic, I will share....after my husband and I were married and we moved into our first home (in Okinawa) I remember that the first night I didn't sleep well, and the second night I awoke to the overpowering feeling that I was being held down. My arms and legs would not move, my mouth felt as if it was being held shut, and all I could do was listen to the hissing sounds I heard moving through the room and shift my eyes from side to side. At first I tried to reason that we were living in Japanese houses, there were bugs, they made noise, go back to sleep....but I couldn't sleep. So I began to pray, at first I couldn't form the words, as if whatever force was holding me down was also holding my tounge to prevent me from speaking, but as I continued to pray I began to repeat "I claim this house in Jesus name, Satan leave!" And one those words rolled off my mouth, the pressure that had been holding me still was gone.

What you just described there is actually a sleep disorder known as sleep paralysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis).

I sometimes think these last few paragraphs are reasons I don't stick with writing in a journal. In a world so filled with people being "labeled" with pysc disorders, I am a little worried my own family may have me committed. (wow, I can't beleive I just said that.)

They only commit you if your a threat to others. If not, then they make you become a Tweb mod.

[Darth Executor]

What you just described there is actually a sleep disorder known as sleep paralysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis).


Been discussed already Johnny.

[Ryokan]

Because they're yours already. Why give them a reason to run to God?
Christians. Many disbelievers are Christian.

[Darth Executor]

Christians. Many disbelievers are Christian.

And how would freaking them out help Satan?

[Ryokan]

And how would freaking them out help Satan?
I don't know? how does freakin' out Christians who believe in him help him? It seems silly.

[Darth Executor]

I don't know? how does freakin' out Christians who believe in him help him? It seems silly.

Actually, what I gather from these stories is that they usually attack those who dabble in the occult. The Christians just happen to be unwilling witnesses. Another thing, it makes sense that you wouldn't hear these kind of stories from people who don't believe Satan does anything. If they had a story to share, odds are they would believe Satan does do something. :tongue:

[Ryokan]

Actually, what I gather from these stories is that they usually attack those who dabble in the occult. The Christians just happen to be unwilling witnesses. Another thing, it makes sense that you wouldn't hear these kind of stories from people who don't believe Satan does anything. If they had a story to share, odds are they would believe Satan does do something. :tongue:
I am skeptical. Lots of Christians with no occult experience have testimony about demons and "spiritual warfare". They just tend to vector around more charismatic churches, oddly.....
And occult practitioners? What makes Wicca our neopaganism different from Scientologists? They don't get attacked by demons. Why do Buddhist monks or Imam's in Islam occasionally suffer demon attacks, and then have the "faith" to fight them off?
By twisting the story enough, any excuse can be offered that can't be attacked. I could make a unrefutable story about gremlins being the cause of things falling. But it doesn't make it more credible.

[Calvinist4Him]

I am skeptical. Lots of Christians with no occult experience have testimony about demons and "spiritual warfare". They just tend to vector around more charismatic churches, oddly..... And occult practitioners? What makes Wicca our neopaganism different from Scientologists? They don't get attacked by demons. Why do Buddhist monks or Imam's in Islam occasionally suffer demon attacks, and then have the "faith" to fight them off? By twisting the story enough, any excuse can be offered that can't be attacked. I could make a unrefutable story about gremlins being the cause of things falling. But it doesn't make it more credible.

Alrighty then, explain the mentality behind canibalism, explain the mentality behind child abuse, the mentality behind a systematic slaughter of an entire race of people. You have to offer an alternative anthropology which explains malevolent human behavor, why people think, say, and do evil things.

No doubt most of the problem can be explained by the problem within, the total depravity of mankind. But the Scriptures also tell of outside influences. How easy would it be for Satan to influence the unregenerate? Why, it wouldn't be troublesome at all.

[Darth Executor]

I am skeptical. Lots of Christians with no occult experience have testimony about demons and "spiritual warfare". They just tend to vector around more charismatic churches, oddly.....

Charismatic churches usually fight them. Most Christian testimonies regarding the subject usually involve somebody other than the witness.

And occult practitioners? What makes Wicca our neopaganism different from Scientologists?

I wasn't thinking of Wicca in particular, but Wiccans do sometimes dabble into old things they may not understand properly. As for scientologists, they don't get attacked because Scientology is crap. It's like asking why don't door to door salesmen get attacked by demons. :teeth:

They don't get attacked by demons. Why do Buddhist monks or Imam's in Islam occasionally suffer demon attacks, and then have the "faith" to fight them off?

I'm probably gonna catch some flak for this from some fundies but Buddhists, IMO, have a strong spirit and will, and I wouldn't be surprised if they can fight off demons on their own. As for Imams, they may have a distorted vision of God but it's still God.


By twisting the story enough, any excuse can be offered that can't be attacked. I could make a unrefutable story about gremlins being the cause of things falling. But it doesn't make it more credible.

Now you're just being unreasonable. Do you think a made-up story about gremlins is a honest comparison to something that seems to be a much more common occurance, even among people I would consider sane and unlikely to make things up or easily fall for them. Some skepticism is healthy but I don't feel the need to go so far as to deny every single occurance by default.

[Ryokan]

Alrighty then, explain the mentality behind canibalism, explain the mentality behind child abuse, the mentality behind a systematic slaughter of an entire race of people. You have to offer an alternative anthropology which explains malevolent human behavor, why people think, say, and do evil things. Easy. Cannabilism is a cultic thing. A outgrowth of animism. You don't need demons for someone to get that screwy idea and run with it to the conclusion. Child abuse? You aren't a parent, but kids are annoying. And expensive. And they bind you to another persons. There are a thousand and one reasons to not like a kids, even if only some of the time. A person with no control of their temper, or who drinks to much, or whose dad beat him, might decide child abuse is the answer. Systematic slaughter? Well, money, political power, easy pacification, racism coming from our tribal past.... A million and one things. People say and do evil things because we have been given freedom to choose what we do by God. We often choose evil, because it has various appeals.

No doubt most of the problem can be explained by the problem within, the total depravity of mankind. But the Scriptures also tell of outside influences. How easy would it be for Satan to influence the unregenerate? Why, it wouldn't be troublesome at all.
Well, theological differences aside, why would he need to? Humanity sins plenty good all by themselves.

[Ryokan]

Charismatic churches usually fight them. Most Christian testimonies regarding the subject usually involve somebody other than the witness.



I wasn't thinking of Wicca in particular, but Wiccans do sometimes dabble into old things they may not understand properly. As for scientologists, they don't get attacked because Scientology is crap. It's like asking why don't door to door salesmen get attacked by demons. :teeth:



I'm probably gonna catch some flak for this from some fundies but Buddhists, IMO, have a strong spirit and will, and I wouldn't be surprised if they can fight off demons on their own. As for Imams, they may have a distorted vision of God but it's still God.
A coherent story, like I said. And don't worry, I am not a fundy, so your safe with me :wink:



Now you're just being unreasonable. Do you think a made-up story about gremlins is a honest comparison to something that seems to be a much more common occurance, even among people I would consider sane and unlikely to make things up or easily fall for them. Some skepticism is healthy but I don't feel the need to go so far as to deny every single occurance by default.
I don't deny every instance. But I don't accept them, either. They are poorly documented, and don't really add anything to my practice of the faith. So until I have reason to worry, I just won't.

[Calvinist4Him]

Easy. Cannabilism is a cultic thing. A outgrowth of animism. You don't need demons for someone to get that screwy idea and run with it to the conclusion.

I fail to see how that is an answer. Screwy idea? That's putting it lightly.

Child abuse? You aren't a parent, but kids are annoying. And expensive. And they bind you to another persons. There are a thousand and one reasons to not like a kids, even if only some of the time. A person with no control of their temper, or who drinks to much, or whose dad beat him, might decide child abuse is the answer.

That rationalization only gets us so far...what pushes one over the edge?

Systematic slaughter? Well, money, political power, easy pacification, racism coming from our tribal past.... A million and one things. People say and do evil things because we have been given freedom to choose what we do by God. We often choose evil, because it has various appeals.

Why is evil appealing though? Why are we tempted by it? Cannot the wise and rational man see beyond the temporal pleasure to the consequences and restrain himself?

Well, theological differences aside, why would he need to? Humanity sins plenty good all by themselves.

What do you disagree with? The total depravity of mankind? If so, and assuming you also disagree with demonic influence, why does humanity sin good all by themselves?

[Ryokan]

I fail to see how that is an answer. Screwy idea? That's putting it lightly.
Opinion. Obviously, we cannot go back to the first cannabal's to see why, but taboos aren't universal, and cannibalism shows up in religions with animistic influences. SO I'd say their is a causal chain.


That rationalization only gets us so far...what pushes one over the edge?
How do you figure? By what reasoning are demons necessary for child abuse?


Why is evil appealing though? Why are we tempted by it? Cannot the wise and rational man see beyond the temporal pleasure to the consequences and restrain himself? No man is wise or rational all the time. We get tired. We have biological compulsions. We have desires other than that which is good. Why is a demon needed to push us? By what rational do you have that? Man, I cannot believe I am arguing against man's capacity for goodness with a Calvinist. :wink:



What do you disagree with? The total depravity of mankind? If so, and assuming you also disagree with demonic influence, why does humanity sin good all by themselves?People aren't totally depraved, but we are all partly depraved, we are all capable of sin, and in this world we live in, sometimes every option available to us is a sin. So, we can do unpoisoned god, and think rightly, but nobody can all the time. Sin is inexcapable for us. But its our fault this is the case. No demons. We need forgiveness for sins we commit ourselves. Hence Jesus.

[Calvinist4Him]

Opinion. Obviously, we cannot go back to the first cannabal's to see why, but taboos aren't universal, and cannibalism shows up in religions with animistic influences. SO I'd say their is a causal chain.

We're beating around the bush, while missing the bush.

How do you figure? By what reasoning are demons necessary for child abuse?

I didn't use the word "necessary", so your question is loaded. I'm not suggesting that every case of child abuse is because of demons. I offered it as an example of demonic influence. IOW, people are entirely responsible for giving into or listening to demons.

Of course demons are not necessary, man by his very nature is inclined to do evil.

No man is wise or rational all the time. We get tired. We have biological compulsions. We have desires other than that which is good. Why is a demon needed to push us? By what rational do you have that? Man, I cannot believe I am arguing against man's capacity for goodness with a Calvinist. :wink:

Again, I'm not an advocate of "the devil made me do it" in most cases, as you're trying to fit me into. What happened to Judas iscariot before he betrayed Jesus? Where in Scripture does it mention that it cannot happen today?

People aren't totally depraved, but we are all partly depraved, we are all capable of sin, and in this world we live in, sometimes every option available to us is a sin. So, we can do unpoisoned god, and think rightly, but nobody can all the time. Sin is inexcapable for us. But its our fault this is the case. No demons. We need forgiveness for sins we commit ourselves. Hence Jesus.

Nice strawman argument. :ahem:

"We need forgiveness for sins we commit ourselves. Hence Jesus." No kidding. :ahem:

So what is your notion of partial depravity based on?

[semmie'ssister]

I am not accusing you, just pointing out my experience. My thoughts: Lots of demon stuff= hoaxes, mental illness, or unverifiable. So, talk to a shrink first if it really bothers you. if they can't fix it, then maybe more steps are needed. Biggest worry for Christians is our own sinful nature, not demons. Take everything Dobson says with a grain of salt. He is a so so religious leader but just awful with science and psychology. Sound good?

I never said that I was bothered by this in any way. Who needs to see a shrink? definately not me. I was just sharing experiences I've had.

[BurningBush--U]

For me, I go back to what the BIble says on the subject. In the OT the words "evil spriits" are used only a few times, once in Jdg 9:23 and six times in 1 Sam 16 - 19. In each case, the Ruakh Raa (evil spirit) is said to have come from God. Through out the OT, the source of evil is God. Deuteronomy
30:15 says "See, I have set before thee this day life (ha-khayim) and good (ha-tob), and death (ha-mevet) and evil (ha-ra)" . In Judges 9:23 God sends an evil spirit (rukh raah) between Sechem and Abimelek as punishment for the crimes of Jerub-Baals sons. Four times in 1 Samuel 16
Saul is afflicted by an "evil sprit from God" (rukh-Elohim raah). In Neh 13:18 it says "? and did not our God bring all this evil (ha-raah) upon us ?". Job asks his wife rhetorically?"What? shall we receive good at the hand of
God, and shall we not [also] receive evil (ha-raa)" ! Isa 45:7 has Yahweh say "I form the light , and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil : I the LORD do all these [things]".


Evil and good are both tools in God's hand. He rewards good with good and evil with evil. Any evil spirit is serving God. At least that is what the Bible says.




Nope! that is a different type of evil. Not the same as she was regarding in this post, a whole different animal.

[BurningBush--U]

This is generally the fight, demonic vs. schizophrenia, nerve disorders, depression, etc. All I am saying is, exhaust your medical options before you hire an exorcist. God generally acts in this world (likie 99.99999% of the time(made up on the spot, of course:teeth:)) in a naturalistic way. He created the rules for a reason, and seems reluctant to regularly break them. So, when something happens, it seems to me safer to assume it has a natural explaination, rather than divine or demonic.
God can use Prayer that fall in line with his will to step-into any RULE of disease or other impairment, physical reality, etceteras.

Go to God FIRST and ALWAYS under all circumstances MAINTAIN a constant relationship and reflection through his words and his laws and his Christ. Always.

Then, while your in that mode:

God to a doctor or other source of help.

Pray in faith, with clean hands if your able.

[Bernie]

Why is evil appealing though? Why are we tempted by it? Cannot the wise and rational man see beyond the temporal pleasure to the consequences and restrain himself?"
This is an interesting question to me, LCM, as I'm more interested in the technical aspects of evil anyway. For example, logically, Ryokan's statement, "People aren't totally depraved, but we are all partly depraved" holds the logical upper hand over the notion of a literal total depravity. The totality of depravity cannot possibly be a literal infusion of evil into the fabric of spirit, because total falsity can lead only to total chaos and death. A human mind could be possessed of only those traits or characteristics which are in unity with falsity and darkness, like hatred, inujury, barbarity, savagery, etc. If the soul were truly totally depraved, only the total fruits of darkness could be extracted from it. Experience completely denies this sense of totality, as Ryokan pointed out.

On the other hand, the popular view held, I think, by most Calvinists and many Arminians--that human spirit is wholly cleansed to a live (or true) state in a single, instantaneous event, is an equal impossibility which makes it hard to discuss how external evil or evil spirits can have any discourse whatever with the created intellect. Epistemically speaking, evil and good, light/darkness, truth/falsity as opposites are sheerly different and antagonistic to one another. How can the mind allegedly infused with a pure spirit have any attachment with or be influenced by external evil? Existence denies this; we're all a multiplicity of good and evil thoughts and acts.

I believe the logical answer is that human spirit is regenerated progressively and fragmentally. In any given human at any point of time, one exists in some simultaneous ratio of true/false in spirit, the former standing in relation to all things good (life, illumination, love, empathy, etc.) and the latter to good's opposite. In this view, the epistemological problem of trying to force evil into a pure spirit vanishes....external evil participates with those portions of human spirit which exist in falsity, while the Spirit of God exists in the regenerate areas of spirit which are able to receive the illumination of righteousness. Here, man is responsible for sin to the extent he participates knowingly and willingly with the inducements of external principalities which drive [tempt] the intellect toward various evils. Excessive participation results in addictions and more flagrant forms of possession. This seems to me much less problematic than the popular models of human spirit and its relationship to evil spirits.

[Ryokan]

God can use Prayer that fall in line with his will to step-into any RULE of disease or other impairment, physical reality, etceteras.

Go to God FIRST and ALWAYS under all circumstances MAINTAIN a constant relationship and reflection through his words and his laws and his Christ. Always.

Then, while your in that mode:

God to a doctor or other source of help.

Pray in faith, with clean hands if your able.
Prayer and going to God is always a good first move. But while your doing that, a doctor or shrink, not an exorcist, is probably your best first stop.

[Ryokan]

I never said that I was bothered by this in any way. Who needs to see a shrink? definately not me. I was just sharing experiences I've had.
Okay. I get sleep paralysis and hate it. This sounds similiar. Thought you would mind.