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View Full Version : Rapture, Millineum, & the 3 last Jewish Feasts.



FarEastBird
08-16-2014, 05:34 PM
As far as I understand, as many also believe, that the 3 last Jewish feast refers of Christ's Second coming of Christ; as the first 4 feast refers to the first coming of Christ. How do the rapture and millineum fits to the last three feasts according to your belief?

Cow Poke
08-16-2014, 08:09 PM
I'm a panmillenial.... I believe it will all pan out in the end.

John Reece
08-17-2014, 07:56 AM
I'm a panmillenial.... I believe it will all pan out in the end.

Let's see:

I am definitely not a premillennialist.

I am definitely not a postmillennialist.

I am almost an amillennialist, but not quite completely.

So, count me also as a panmillennialist.

Scrawly
08-17-2014, 06:57 PM
Let's see:

I am definitely not a premillennialist.

I am definitely not a postmillennialist.

I am almost an amillennialist, but not quite completely.

So, count me also as a panmillennialist.

Amen.

KingsGambit
08-17-2014, 07:17 PM
Let's see:

I am definitely not a premillennialist.

I am definitely not a postmillennialist.

I am almost an amillennialist, but not quite completely.

So, count me also as a panmillennialist.

That's more or less where I am at this point in time. It's not a subject that really interests me as much as others.

FarEastBird
08-17-2014, 07:35 PM
That's more or less where I am at this point in time. It's not a subject that really interests me as much as others.
Well, there are false prophets around us, and are becoming powerful in persuading many into false hopes. Sad to learn you have no interest on these things.

Cow Poke
08-17-2014, 07:41 PM
Well, there are false prophets around us, and are becoming powerful in persuading many into false hopes. Sad to learn you have no interest on these things.

I'm really thinking English must not be your first language. He didn't say he has "no interest" in these things --- he said it doesn't interest him as much as others. :glare:

Sprechen Sie Deutsch, perhaps?

KingsGambit
08-17-2014, 08:08 PM
Well, there are false prophets around us, and are becoming powerful in persuading many into false hopes. Sad to learn you have no interest on these things.

I just have a hard time seeing how speculating over the specifics of a future event where either way, we know Jesus wins, makes me a better disciple here.

FarEastBird
08-18-2014, 08:16 AM
I'm really thinking English must not be your first language. He didn't say he has "no interest" in these things --- he said it doesn't interest him as much as others. :glare:

Sprechen Sie Deutsch, perhaps?
You're right, Cow poke. But the way I receive it would meant "no interest." It is because of how I relate the problem of false prophets.

Cow Poke
08-18-2014, 08:22 AM
You're right, Cow poke. But the way I receive it would meant "no interest." It is because of how I relate the problem of false prophets.

I'm with KG on this one, FEB....


I just have a hard time seeing how speculating over the specifics of a future event where either way, we know Jesus wins, makes me a better disciple here.

I have way too many concerns, including hurting people, lost people who need to be saved, saved people who need to be discipled, and currently a homeless family who needs work and a place to live --- like KG, this is simply not as important to me as those things and other things.

It doesn't mean I'm not interested, and so far, it doesn't appear anybody else is either. :shrug:

FarEastBird
08-18-2014, 08:40 AM
I just have a hard time seeing how speculating over the specifics of a future event where either way, we know Jesus wins, makes me a better disciple here.
Let me put it this way:

If you received a false prophet in your flock, you are responsible for bringing in a false prophet in the flock.
If you deny a prophet, you denied whom God sent.
If you do not heed of the dangers of false prophets, then you do not heed to warn the people you are discipling.

Actually, the sign of a true disciple is having knowledge of prophesies, I do not meant having knowledge of ALL prophesies.

Cow Poke
08-18-2014, 08:45 AM
Let me put it this way:

If you received a false prophet in your flock, you are responsible for bringing in a false prophet in the flock.

Absolutely, but I don't have to be an expert in Jewish Feasts as they relate to eschatology to do that.


If you deny a prophet, you denied whom God sent.
If you do not heed of the dangers of false prophets, then you do not heed to warn the people you are discipling.

Which is why I stick to Christ crucified, buried and risen again, and how to walk in the Spirit -- things like justification, sanctification, adoption, glorification...


Actually, the sign of a true disciple is having knowledge of prophesies,

meh.... let's see you try to back that up with scripture. ESPECIALLY the part about distant eschatology. :glare:


I do not meant having knowledge of ALL prophesies.

Ok, so give me the list of ones that a disciple must know in order to be a "true disciple", and the scriptures that support this notion. :smile:

Sparko
08-18-2014, 09:16 AM
I am with Cow Poke. Christ preached caring for your neighbors, and believing in him for the forgiveness of sins. He never said you had to know anything about the feasts and prophesies regarding his coming back, other than to be always prepared.

My view is that is it far more likely that I will go to Jesus rather than have Jesus come to me in the second coming. We all will meet our Lord soon enough. For most of us, it is when we die. And that's good enough for me.

Cow Poke
08-18-2014, 09:18 AM
I am with Cow Poke. Christ preached caring for your neighbors, and believing in him for the forgiveness of sins. He never said you had to know anything about the feasts and prophesies regarding his coming back, other than to be always prepared.

My view is that is it far more likely that I will go to Jesus rather than have Jesus come to me in the second coming. We all will meet our Lord soon enough. For most of us, it is when we die. And that's good enough for me.

yeah

Sparko
08-18-2014, 09:23 AM
yeah
I have found that most of the false teachers and prophets are those that try to impose their own arbitrary interpretations and ideas upon others and insist that is the only true view, and way to be a true disciple. Just like FEB is doing here.

tabibito
08-18-2014, 09:29 AM
I am with Cow Poke. Christ preached caring for your neighbors, and believing in him for the forgiveness of sins. He never said you had to know anything about the feasts and prophesies regarding his coming back, other than to be always prepared.

My view is that is it far more likely that I will go to Jesus rather than have Jesus come to me in the second coming. We all will meet our Lord soon enough. For most of us, it is when we die. And that's good enough for me.

By this shall all men know that you are my disciples ...
if you have lots of letters after your name,
if you know the prophecies,
if you can cite every word: chapter and verse,
if you believe the gospel,
somehow ... those don't seem to be the right endings to the quote.

Cow Poke
08-18-2014, 10:29 AM
By this shall all men know that you are my disciples ...
if you have lots of letters after your name,
if you know the prophecies,
if you can cite every word: chapter and verse,
if you believe the gospel,
somehow ... those don't seem to be the right endings to the quote.

Thou must lovest banana puddin

Sparko
08-18-2014, 10:38 AM
Thou must lovest banana puddin

Thou art a hairy tick!

FarEastBird
08-18-2014, 06:36 PM
I'm with KG on this one, FEB....


I have way too many concerns, including hurting people, lost people who need to be saved, saved people who need to be discipled, and currently a homeless family who needs work and a place to live --- like KG, this is simply not as important to me as those things and other things.

It doesn't mean I'm not interested, and so far, it doesn't appear anybody else is either. :shrug:
I understand your concerns. But learn from the story of Martha and Mary. What is really the most important thing to do first?

What is the worth of giving people food if after filling themselves, or satisfying themselves, they would die and remain dead eternally? What is the most important bread and treasure that you could share to anyone? Isn't it the Word?

I understand if people does not want to speculate about things. Indeed that is a right thing to do. But you are missing the important part; for if the leadership lack the true knowledge where is the flock leading to?

Perhaps you do not feel, or know, the importance of knowing the prophesies, but from the way you are reacting you can easily brush off a prophet. Perhaps you are irritated of those false prophets, but even through them you should see how big issue is understanding the prophesies are.

The simple truth is, if a person does not align himself according to the prophesies, he is but lost.

FarEastBird
08-18-2014, 06:51 PM
I am with Cow Poke. Christ preached caring for your neighbors, and believing in him for the forgiveness of sins. He never said you had to know anything about the feasts and prophesies regarding his coming back, other than to be always prepared.

My view is that is it far more likely that I will go to Jesus rather than have Jesus come to me in the second coming. We all will meet our Lord soon enough. For most of us, it is when we die. And that's good enough for me.

It depends. The leadership has to have authority. And the goal of the leadership is to lead every soul to the knowledge of God. And every one has their part.


Eph 4:11-15
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:


Mind you, the gospel that we preach is actually a prophecy.


Peter even encouraged in his epistle:

2Pet 1:19-21
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

FarEastBird
08-18-2014, 07:26 PM
I have found that most of the false teachers and prophets are those that try to impose their own arbitrary interpretations and ideas upon others and insist that is the only true view, and way to be a true disciple. Just like FEB is doing here.

Now this is the work of false teachers: They use their speculations to make their enemies look bad. A good way to hide their ignorance, and to make their flock wallow in darkness. Seriously........

I believe that many false teachers and prophets are simply ignorant, and what they need are people who would enlighten them.

Honestly, accusing a person as suspect because he/she tries to impose his/her belief is quite a lame practice.

What is evil is when a person is directly controlling his/her adherents/followers.

If one does not impose to people the gospel, he/she is nothing but a babbler.

We need to draw a fine line, most of the time people use blurred lines to win an argument. I happen to do it too, sometimes.

FarEastBird
08-18-2014, 07:31 PM
By this shall all men know that you are my disciples ...
if you have lots of letters after your name,
if you know the prophecies,
if you can cite every word: chapter and verse,
if you believe the gospel,
somehow ... those don't seem to be the right endings to the quote.

The simple problem is you had built a STRAW MAN.

Cow Poke
08-18-2014, 07:47 PM
I understand your concerns.

No, actually you don't.


The simple truth is, if a person does not align himself according to the prophesies, he is but lost.

That's a lie of the devil -- It is Christ who justifies us and presents us faultless to the Father, clothed in His own righteousness.

FarEastBird
08-18-2014, 08:33 PM
No, actually you don't.

I truly may be wrong.




That's a lie of the devil -- It is Christ who justifies us and presents us faultless to the Father, clothed in His own righteousness.

What I said does not contradict Christ's works. There are many antichrists that came as the prophecy says; if you are part of the flock of antichrist would Christ justify you?

Cow Poke
08-19-2014, 04:19 AM
I truly may be wrong.

That's correct.


What I said does not contradict Christ's works. There are many antichrists that came as the prophecy says; if you are part of the flock of antichrist would Christ justify you?

Somebody who is focused on following Christ instead of trying to find an antichrist behind every tree and wildly speculating on eschatological conspiracy theories will be just fine.

FarEastBird
08-19-2014, 06:13 AM
That's correct.



Somebody who is focused on following Christ instead of trying to find an antichrist behind every tree and wildly speculating on eschatological conspiracy theories will be just fine.

You are making a blurred line to win the heart of others. Somehow, someway, we are challenged to speculate. You ought not paint others unsound by your speculation that they are speculating. Ignorance of what others say isn't a proof they are speculating. The right thing to do is show the faultiness of their speculations. What you are advising is to ignore everyone who we speculate to be speculating.

tabibito
08-19-2014, 07:24 AM
The simple problem is you had built a STRAW MAN.

Very true. But not without purpose.

One thing I have learnt - you don't have any hope of following Christ if you keep looking around at inconsequentials. You can only follow him if you keep your eyes on where he is and where he wants you to be. Whatever antis might be around at the time, you can't look at them and at Christ at the same time.

Cow Poke
08-19-2014, 07:33 AM
You are making a blurred line to win the heart of others.

That's just dumb. What could be MORE clear than Christ crucified, buried and risen again? :glare:


Somehow, someway, we are challenged to speculate.

Book, Chapter, verse!


You ought not paint others unsound by your speculation that they are speculating.

It's not speculation on my part, it's fruit inspection. :smug:


Ignorance of what others say isn't a proof they are speculating. The right thing to do is show the faultiness of their speculations. What you are advising is to ignore everyone who we speculate to be speculating.

I would happily recommend to followers of Christ that they ignore YOU! :thumb:

FarEastBird
08-19-2014, 09:24 AM
Book, Chapter, verse!

You are a book for everyone to read, if they cannot read your manners, they will not be able to understand the Bible either.



I would happily recommend to followers of Christ that they ignore YOU! :thumb:
Your goal in your posts is merely to influence people to ignore me, you are not promoting wisdom at all.....I already knew it from the beginning.

Cow Poke
08-19-2014, 09:54 AM
You are a book for everyone to read, if they cannot read your manners, they will not be able to understand the Bible either.

No, FEB -- show me where the Bible supports your goofy assertion! :glare:


Your goal in your posts is merely to influence people to ignore me, you are not promoting wisdom at all.....I already knew it from the beginning.

Actually, it IS wisdom to ignore your posts! :idea: You're flakier than Post Toasties! :shrug:

FarEastBird
08-19-2014, 10:12 AM
Very true. But not without purpose.

One thing I have learnt - you don't have any hope of following Christ if you keep looking around at inconsequentials. You can only follow him if you keep your eyes on where he is and where he wants you to be. Whatever antis might be around at the time, you can't look at them and at Christ at the same time.
Rather than going in detail to answer your post, let me tell you what I believe and draw from it my supposed response to your post.

I believe we are saved through Predestination. The prophesies are the very witness/proof of our salvation, central to it is the gospel of Christ.

Now there is a prophecy of falling away and blindness of the saints; and for that reason there will be a time when Christ will be revealed "AGAIN"! So, a simple question is, what time are we in, are we at the time of blindness? The prophesy says that Christ will be revealed again "at the sound of the trumpet", had they heard of the trumpet? From these we question whoever preach and teach where their source of authority come from? Actually, the prophesy says that Christ will send his angels to gather the elect. Aren't these crucial for everyone to know?

Cow Poke
08-19-2014, 10:14 AM
what time are we in, are we at the time of blindness?

I believe you are.

FarEastBird
08-19-2014, 10:56 AM
I believe you are.

Didn't you imply in your post about your ignorance of the prophesies?

(here we are again......but i hope people see i am turning such smear into a fruitful one)

Cow Poke
08-19-2014, 11:00 AM
Didn't you imply in your post about your ignorance of the prophesies?

Nope


(here we are again......but i hope people see i am turning such smear into a fruitful one)

You're a fruit, alright! :smile: And you're in a bit of a JAM! :lmbo: But trust in Jesus -- he can PRESERVE you! :yes:

Sparko
08-19-2014, 11:04 AM
If salvation is predestined, then it doesn't matter what you believe.

FarEastBird
08-19-2014, 12:15 PM
If salvation is predestined, then it doesn't matter what you believe.

It is God who will lead us of what to believe, by giving us knowledge of the truth and of himself. Even when we still do not know him, he was already at work even before all things came to exist. Actually, all things work for good to them who are elect.

Paul was himself after killing the Christians when Christ elected him to be his witness to the future Gentiles. He was even converted by force.

Sparko
08-19-2014, 12:25 PM
It is God who will lead us of what to believe, by giving us knowledge of the truth and of himself. Even when we still do not know him, he was already at work even before all things came to exist. Actually, all things work for good to them who are elect.

Paul was himself after killing the Christians when Christ elected him to be his witness to the future Gentiles. He was even converted by force.

and so all of your preaching and telling us what to believe is useless. If God wants us to believe something and we are predestined to be saved, then we will believe that something. If not, then we won't. In other words, believing and knowing "prophesies" is useless as far as being necessary for salvation. Nothing is necessary for salvation other than God predestining you to be saved. You have basically destroyed your own argument.

FarEastBird
08-19-2014, 12:59 PM
and so all of your preaching and telling us what to believe is useless. If God wants us to believe something and we are predestined to be saved, then we will believe that something. If not, then we won't. In other words, believing and knowing "prophesies" is useless as far as being necessary for salvation. Nothing is necessary for salvation other than God predestining you to be saved. You have basically destroyed your own argument.

It is useless only to the lost.

Not all elect are for to convert people. Some are called to bring judgment and become token how evil a generation is. Some are simply to give warning. Some are sent to lead, etc. As I was implying in a previous post, God predestined the prophets, the teachers, the healers, evangelists, etc. for the perfecting of the saints. The LOST will never understand, nor will come to understanding these things, neither will they benefit from these things.

It is true that I am not persuading anyone. I'm actually more into seeking a fulfillment of prophecies. But I am believing that if one hears the voice of God through me, then God himself is working in him. I will not force my belief on anyone, God will himself teach the elect, and they may do better than me.

Sparko
08-19-2014, 01:05 PM
It is useless only to the lost.

Not all elect are for to convert people. Some are called to bring judgment and become token how evil a generation is. Some are simply to give warning. Some are sent to lead, etc. As I was implying in a previous post, God predestined the prophets, the teachers, the healers, evangelists, etc. for the perfecting of the saints. The LOST will never understand, nor will come to understanding these things, neither will they benefit from these things.

It is true that I am not persuading anyone. I'm actually more into seeking a fulfillment of prophecies. But I am believing that if one hears the voice of God through me, then God himself is working in him. I will not force my belief on anyone, God will himself teach the elect, and they may do better than me.

Your English needs work. "Not all elect are for to convert people????"

anyway, as you admit you are not teaching anyone. Might as well move on.

FarEastBird
08-19-2014, 01:31 PM
Your English needs work. "Not all elect are for to convert people????"

Well, teachers are called to teach, that is what i meant.


anyway, as you admit you are not teaching anyone. Might as well move on.

Don't get mixed up of my belief of predestination and of how it works, unto my act of persuading people. As I said, the saints learn through those whom God sent.

Cow Poke
08-19-2014, 06:50 PM
Don't get mixed up

I think you're mixed up enough for all of us. :wink:

Catholicity
08-22-2014, 10:35 AM
Did someone mention something about banana pudding?

Cow Poke
08-22-2014, 02:12 PM
Did someone mention something about banana pudding?

puddin'

yes

nanner puddin', to be precise. :smile:

Christianbookworm
09-11-2014, 05:55 PM
What is up with this FEB? He posted another thread about Jews and Gentiles and prophecies and acted like I wasn't a believer if I couldn't interpret his messed up ideas.

FarEastBird
09-11-2014, 08:42 PM
What is up with this FEB? He posted another thread about Jews and Gentiles and prophecies and acted like I wasn't a believer if I couldn't interpret his messed up ideas.
If you do not know the prophecy, where did you get your knowledge of the truth?

The prophecy says that there will be famine of the word and shall not find it. And then it says in Isaiah that the Gentiles will will be the one to "build the wall"; speaking of the Tabernacle of David, the spiritual tabernacle.

So, if you do not know these Gentiles who will build the walls, where did you get you knowledge of truth?

Christianbookworm
09-12-2014, 07:05 AM
Guess what buddy, I am a Gentile, so what are you even talking about? In any case, Jesus told his apostles(and Paul), they told others who told others. The message was also written down and copied meticulously over the centuries. The gospel message was told to me in the 1990's. I have been a Christian since I was 8 years old. In my teen years I studied apologetic resources and am fully convinced of the truth of Jesus and His Resurrection from the dead. No mere internet fundy can tell me otherwise.

Christianbookworm
09-12-2014, 07:08 AM
And Isaiah is speaking of the people of his time. Not the distant future future!

Cow Poke
09-12-2014, 07:17 AM
What is up with this FEB? He posted another thread about Jews and Gentiles and prophecies and acted like I wasn't a believer if I couldn't interpret his messed up ideas.

I think FEB....
A) is a meonlyist
2) has a language barrier problem
C) is a bit on the looney side

:shrug:

Christianbookworm
09-12-2014, 07:20 AM
I think FEB....
A) is a meonlyist
2) has a language barrier problem
C) is a bit on the looney side

:shrug:
He probably won't get my Batman reference?

Cow Poke
09-12-2014, 07:23 AM
He probably won't get my Batman reference?

Not even a chance. :shrug:

Christianbookworm
09-12-2014, 07:25 AM
Where's he from? Asia?

Cow Poke
09-12-2014, 07:28 AM
Where's he from? Asia?

Wrong planet. He says "far east" bird, so think even FARTHER out.... :smug:

Christianbookworm
09-12-2014, 07:31 AM
He ain't a Kryptonian.

Cow Poke
09-12-2014, 07:32 AM
He ain't a Kryptonian.

No, they employ logic and reason.

Christianbookworm
09-12-2014, 07:35 AM
No, they employ logic and reason.

I thought that was the Vulcans?

Cow Poke
09-12-2014, 07:38 AM
I thought that was the Vulcans?

No, they PERSONIFY logic and reason. :smug:

Christianbookworm
09-12-2014, 07:42 AM
No, they PERSONIFY logic and reason. :smug:

I just named the first group of flying aliens I thought of. Are there any other fictional aliens named after noble gases?

Truthseeker
09-12-2014, 03:18 PM
I think FEB....
A) is a meonlyist I googled that word and went like this :huh: Bing said nothing came up for a definition of meonlyist. I'm impressed Cow Poke used a term that Bing couldn't get. All of the Internet. Wow.

Cow Poke
09-12-2014, 05:06 PM
I googled that word and went like this :huh: Bing said nothing came up for a definition of meonlyist. I'm impressed Cow Poke used a term that Bing couldn't get. All of the Internet. Wow.

meonlyest ---- Who is qualified to correctly interpret the Word of God?

FEB: Me ONLY

Hence, a "me only ist"

Christianbookworm
09-12-2014, 05:52 PM
Did I scare him off??? :huh:

Truthseeker
09-12-2014, 08:16 PM
:clap: Cow Poke has a neologism! A marvel!

Cow Poke
09-12-2014, 08:23 PM
:clap: Cow Poke has a neologism! A marvel!

Yeah, but I've already seen a doctor, and plan on having it surgically removed. :blush:

Christianbookworm
09-12-2014, 08:27 PM
Yeah, but I've already seen a doctor, and plan on having it surgically removed. :blush:

Not a neoplasm!!! A neologism! Making up your own words! Though, I suspect you did that on purpose...
Did we scare FEB away for good???

NormATive
09-15-2014, 04:16 PM
As far as I understand, as many also believe, that the 3 last Jewish feast refers of Christ's Second coming of Christ; as the first 4 feast refers to the first coming of Christ. How do the rapture and millineum fits to the last three feasts according to your belief?

First, there is no such thing as a "last" Jewish feast. They are ongoing - based around the Jewish calendar.

Secondly, the Jewish feasts aren't prophecy of anything. They are meant to illustrate G-d's interaction with the Jewish people. I can understand why some Christians find meaning in the Jewish feasts - after all, the man you worship was Jewish!

I apologize for posting in a "theistic" thread, but couldn't let this one go. As one of the only Jewish persons on T-Web, I feel obligated to correct common errors.

I think you are right to focus on the teachings and actions of Jesus rather than speculate on who is qualified to join the club by proof of their secret decoder ring.

CowPoke is correct, I think, to focus attention on those who need help NOW rather than worry about what the future holds.

NORM

FarEastBird
09-16-2014, 04:31 AM
First, there is no such thing as a "last" Jewish feast. They are ongoing - based around the Jewish calendar.

Secondly, the Jewish feasts aren't prophecy of anything. They are meant to illustrate G-d's interaction with the Jewish people. I can understand why some Christians find meaning in the Jewish feasts - after all, the man you worship was Jewish!

I apologize for posting in a "theistic" thread, but couldn't let this one go. As one of the only Jewish persons on T-Web, I feel obligated to correct common errors.

I think you are right to focus on the teachings and actions of Jesus rather than speculate on who is qualified to join the club by proof of their secret decoder ring.

CowPoke is correct, I think, to focus attention on those who need help NOW rather than worry about what the future holds.

NORM

Christ came and revealed the truth of salvation. It was a prophecy foretold in the OT itself. So, a Christian's understanding of the Scriptures may vary from the Jewish old beliefs.

A correction on my part, I was referring of the 3 autumn feast(s). Most, if not all, Christians believe that Christ's advents have to do with the feasts, of which we believe that the first 4 spring feasts were fulfilled at his first coming. And that the 3 autumn feasts will be fulfilled at his second coming.

Now, the salvation that was revealed to us is that of Predestination; that it is God's work. And the evidence of this salvation is of showing God's plans and messages, stated in the prophesies, being fulfilled, especially about Christ. Just as how the events in the first century was prophesied and was fullfilled, the same thing will be true of these last days. If the prophesies fails, our hope of salvation through predestination through the power of God also fails; for then we'll see that God is not that omnipotent.

We cannot work out our salvation, but rather, seeing ourselves counted in the fulfillment of the prophesies would be our genuine hope.

NormATive
09-16-2014, 05:17 PM
Christ came and revealed the truth of salvation. It was a prophecy foretold in the OT itself. So, a Christian's understanding of the Scriptures may vary from the Jewish old beliefs.

Nevertheless, the Christian understanding is a reinterpretation of Jewish beliefs. The Jewish feasts were given to us by G-d for OUR edification and the pedagogy of our youth, not to foretell future events - particularly blasphemous events.

BTW, it is quite easy to back-date events from an existing book (Jesus himself quotes from the Tanakh) to make it appear as though it were "prophecy."

I'm afraid prophecy is not a petard you want to hoist. I'd stick with the idea that Christianity is an evolutionary stage in Jewish history. But I understand the desire to embrace Jewish philosophy. It does have a certain gravitas to it.

NORM

Cow Poke
09-16-2014, 06:23 PM
I'm afraid prophecy is not a petard you want to hoist.

I think this is a mangled metaphor. :smile: A petard is an explosive device, and the common phrase is "hosted on your own petard".

On the other hand, perhaps you INTENDED that he was needlessly launching fireworks! :idea:

NormATive
09-16-2014, 07:14 PM
I think this is a mangled metaphor. :smile: A petard is an explosive device, and the common phrase is "hosted on your own petard".

On the other hand, perhaps you INTENDED that he was needlessly launching fireworks! :idea:

I prefer my metaphors mangled and, er; smelly? Interesting etymology:


peˇtard (p-tärd)
n.
1. A small bell-shaped bomb used to breach a gate or wall.
2. A loud firecracker.
[French pétard, from Old French, from peter, to break wind, from pet, a breaking of wind, from Latin pditum, from neuter past participle of pdere, to break wind; see pezd- in Indo-European roots.]
Word History: The French used pétard, "a loud discharge of intestinal gas," for a kind of infernal engine for blasting through the gates of a city. "To be hoist by one's own petard," a now proverbial phrase apparently originating with Shakespeare's Hamlet (around 1604) not long after the word entered English (around 1598), means "to blow oneself up with one's own bomb, be undone by one's own devices." The French noun pet, "fart," developed regularly from the Latin noun pditum, from the Indo-European root *pezd-, "fart." - http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hoisted+by+own+petard

NORM

Cow Poke
09-16-2014, 07:15 PM
I prefer my metaphors mangled and, er; smelly? Interesting etymology:

Even more interesting that I had thought. :smug:

Truthseeker
09-16-2014, 08:25 PM
I think this is a mangled metaphor. :smile: A petard is an explosive device, and the common phrase is "hosted on your own petard".Watch the spelling: Hoisted, with an eye for detail.

Cow Poke
09-17-2014, 07:10 AM
Watch the spelling: Hoisted, with an eye for detail.

Touche'. Gotta watch that, cause I don't have as many fingers on my right hand as you do, and the "i" key is often missed --- I often have to go back and catch it. :smile:

FarEastBird
09-17-2014, 07:30 AM
Nevertheless, the Christian understanding is a reinterpretation of Jewish beliefs. The Jewish feasts were given to us by G-d for OUR edification and the pedagogy of our youth, not to foretell future events - particularly blasphemous events.

BTW, it is quite easy to back-date events from an existing book (Jesus himself quotes from the Tanakh) to make it appear as though it were "prophecy."

I'm afraid prophecy is not a petard you want to hoist. I'd stick with the idea that Christianity is an evolutionary stage in Jewish history. But I understand the desire to embrace Jewish philosophy. It does have a certain gravitas to it.

NORM

Bottomline is the prophet foretold to come will speak the word of God, and every one is accounted to believe him. Christ came and spoke word contrary to common Jewish customs and beliefs, of which it was easy for the Jews to deny him. Because of this issue, Christ words could only be vindicated by being a prophet himself, and of the fullfilment of the prophecies regarding himself. The prophesies were fulfilled, so we take Christ's word.

Today we face even a worst problem of having diverse beliefs among christian believers, and that it seems reasoning would not be enough to silence the false ones. But that is not only that simple, the apostles themselves had prophesied of the falling away of the believers, and of the blindness that would come. Again, a preacher would have had the difficulty to preach truth unto a people that has fallen away and blinded. And it is the prophesies that will vindicate someone from God. And one thing, we're told that anyone who prophesied and failed is not of God.

Quite honestly, people who preach to focus of people's individual talent to be useful in the community of christians, is, ultimately, actually focused on their own agendas. Whereas the basic common goal our works ought to be the unification of all believers, making it into one body. Excusing that our talents naturally cause divisions among ourselves lies a big deception in the heart of these people. As Jesus plainly said, " a divided house cannot stand." It is foolish to think that the divided christians would represent the house of God.

Christianbookworm
09-17-2014, 07:35 AM
Bottomline is the prophet foretold to come will speak the word of God, and every one is accounted to believe him. Christ came and spoke word contrary to common Jewish customs and beliefs, of which it was easy for the Jews to deny him. Because of this issue, Christ words could only be vindicated by being a prophet himself, and of the fullfilment of the prophecies regarding himself. The prophesies were fulfilled, so we take Christ's word.

Today we face even a worst problem of having diverse beliefs among christian believers, and that it seems reasoning would not be enough to silence the false ones. But that is not only that simple, the apostles themselves had prophesied of the falling away of the believers, and of the blindness that would come. Again, a preacher would have had the difficulty to preach truth unto a people that has fallen away and blinded. And it is the prophesies that will vindicate someone from God. And one thing, we're told that anyone who prophesied and failed is not of God.

Quite honestly, people who preach to focus of people's individual talent to be useful in the community of christians, is, ultimately, actually focused on their own agendas. Whereas the basic common goal our works ought to be the unification of all believers, making it into one body. Excusing that our talents naturally cause divisions among ourselves lies a big deception in the heart of these people. As Jesus plainly said, " a divided house cannot stand." It is foolish to think that the divided christians would represent the house of God.

Guess what, denominations aren't divided on the essentials. They primarily exist to serve a specific population. It's an autonomy thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lvLNuygq9Y&feature=player_detailpage

FarEastBird
09-17-2014, 10:17 AM
Guess what, denominations aren't divided on the essentials. They primarily exist to serve a specific population. It's an autonomy thing.


Diversity of administration is not an issue. Though when two administrators are not working together, then it becomes truly an issue. It is easy to see that majority of the denominations are not really united.

But most important here is the issue of belief/faith. We are commanded to be of ONE MIND regarding our faith. The gospel, as we believe, is the mystery of our salvation. It follows that people who explain the mystery of salvation unto the concept of Calvinism differ in gospel to those of Molinism, or Open Theism, or Arminianism. To ignore the differences of these understanding of the mystery of salvation is plainly to ignore the truth of the gospel.

But regardless that we may have differences, there is no excuse that we be divided. Psalm 127:1 says, "Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain." God is the only who establishes the church, to claim that it can be divided is ludicrous. God will never make His house divided.


A divided house is man's invention.

Christianbookworm
09-17-2014, 10:21 AM
Diversity of administration is not an issue. Though when two administrators are not working together, then it becomes truly an issue. It is easy to see that majority of the denomination is not really united.

But most important here is the issue of belief/faith. We are commanded to be of ONE MIND regarding our faith. The gospel, as we believe, is the mystery of our salvation. It follows that people who explain the mystery of salvation unto the concept of Calvinism differ in gospel to those of Molinism, or Open Theism, or Arminianism. To ignore the differences of these understanding of the mystery of salvation is plainly to ignore the truth of the gospel.

But regardless in we have differences, there is no excuse that we be divided. Psalm 127:1 says, "Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain." God is the only who establishes the church, to claim that it can be divided is ludicrous. God will never make His house divided.


A divided house is man's invention.

Quoting a Psalm? That's poetry, not a theological statement. Not a good idea to use proverbial literature to form doctrine. Bound to misinterpret it. Why is your interpretation more valid than mine? Do you have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit? Are you a prophet?

FarEastBird
09-17-2014, 11:21 AM
Quoting a Psalm? That's poetry, not a theological statement. Not a good idea to use proverbial literature to form doctrine. Bound to misinterpret it. Why is your interpretation more valid than mine? Do you have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit? Are you a prophet?

One can easily claim anointing by their own understanding. Whereas the gospel is hid to the lost. Peter itself warned that by reading Paul's letter had made others to stumble. In the complexity of this issue of battle of beliefs among the false and the true ones, the people of weak faith are being caught into confusion. This is where the importance of the knowledge of prophecy comes in. Knowledge of prophesies is an essential part in the church for the leaders to lead/navigate the church according to the prophecies. The prophesies were not written for us just to be in awe. The prophesies helps us identify the true church.

With regards to authority, Paul gave us the answer:

Rom 10:15
....And how shall they preach, except they be sent?.....

Christianbookworm
09-17-2014, 11:56 AM
One can easily claim anointing by their own understanding. Whereas the gospel is hid to the lost. Peter itself warned that by reading Paul's letter had made others to stumble. In the complexity of this issue of battle of beliefs among the false and the true ones, the people of weak faith are being caught into confusion. This is where the importance of the knowledge of prophecy comes in. Knowledge of prophesies is an essential part in the church for the leaders to lead/navigate the church according to the prophecies. The prophesies were not written for us just to be in awe. The prophesies helps us identify the true church.

With regards to authority, Paul gave us the answer:

Rom 10:15
....And how shall they preach, except they be sent?.....


No comment...
Paul's talking about the need for missionaries to spread the Gospel so they can hear. Context!

Cow Poke
09-17-2014, 12:12 PM
Quite honestly, people who preach to focus of people's individual talent to be useful in the community of christians, is, ultimately, actually focused on their own agendas.

THAT, sir, is a steaming load of horsie poo, and NOT "quite honest". :glare: In fact, it's just birdbrained stupid.

It is in CONTEXT that we Christians are all members of the body, and each gift is given by the Spirit as HE will, so the individual members are NOT focused on themselves, but on the body, and how their gifts benefit the body. IF, in fact, they are focused ONLY on their own gift, then it is, indeed, a problem.

FarEastBird
09-17-2014, 12:48 PM
No comment...
Paul's talking about the need for missionaries to spread the Gospel so they can hear. Context!

You certainly have your own interpretations. But, I will say that there are important messages behind the word that points directly to the truth of God. For you to say that Paul simply talks "about need for missionaries", which is quite needed indeed, does not capture the true message of the passage. If men can really search the word of God out of reading the Scriptures, even Jesus would not have to argue with the Jews. But according to God's gifts to men in Jesus Christ to the church, the positions in the church, such as teachers, or prophets, or healers, are not taken through man's will. In fact, nobody can come to know God except God reveals himself to the person. So no one can preach except God himself sent him.

We can debate this issue, and likely we will not change our stand on the matter. But in the end, when we face God in the last judgment, you will be asked where your authority came from.

2Pet 3:16
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

FarEastBird
09-17-2014, 01:08 PM
THAT, sir, is a steaming load of horsie poo, and NOT "quite honest". :glare: In fact, it's just birdbrained stupid.

It is in CONTEXT that we Christians are all members of the body, and each gift is given by the Spirit as HE will, so the individual members are NOT focused on themselves, but on the body, and how their gifts benefit the body. IF, in fact, they are focused ONLY on their own gift, then it is, indeed, a problem.

Are you taking it that everyone who call themselves christians, are christians in deed? That's not right. The goal for having the apostles, preacher, teacher, prophets in the church is for the perfecting of the saints, to come in ONE MIND with Christ.

Eph 4:10-14
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

What else would be your excuse with a church of united in mind about the truth, yet to be divided among themselves about belief?

If these denominations are not uniting us in full belief of the truth, then they are false ones. And if they cannot unite the church, they themselves are blind guides.

Cow Poke
09-17-2014, 01:09 PM
Are you taking it that everyone who call themselves christians, are christians in deed?

No, I'm taking it that you're even farther out there than your name implies. :smug:

Christianbookworm
09-17-2014, 01:22 PM
Again, why should I believe you over the Holy Spirit? Two can play that game. The Holy Spirit inspired men to write the scriptures, Since it was a high context society, context is needed to understand the scriptures beyond the basics for salvation.

FarEastBird
09-17-2014, 02:54 PM
Again, why should I believe you over the Holy Spirit? Two can play that game. The Holy Spirit inspired men to write the scriptures, Since it was a high context society, context is needed to understand the scriptures beyond the basics for salvation.

Is it really the Holy Spirit, or you are simply vouching of your own knowledge and understanding? Do you know the differences of these?

With regards to knowledge, Your knowledge about Rom 10:15 is a doctrine from men that perish with the use. But what I showed is something that will be true at any time.

This is sincere, I do have the Holy Spirit. I received it from God. I asked for a sign and I was given. How about you?

Christianbookworm
09-17-2014, 02:55 PM
Is it really the Holy Spirit, or you are simply vouching of your own knowledge and understanding? Do you know the differences of these?

With regards to knowledge, Your knowledge about Rom 10:15 is a doctrine from men that perish with the use. But what I showed is something that will be true at any time.

This is sincere, I do have the Holy Spirit. I received it from God. I asked for a sign and I was given. How about you?

I have the Holy Spirit. Makes a great conscience. He ain't telling you this stuff.

Cow Poke
09-17-2014, 03:05 PM
Is it really the Holy Spirit, or you are simply vouching of your own knowledge and understanding? Do you know the differences of these?

With regards to knowledge, Your knowledge about Rom 10:15 is a doctrine from men that perish with the use. But what I showed is something that will be true at any time.

This is sincere, I do have the Holy Spirit. I received it from God. I asked for a sign and I was given. How about you?

I think, FEB, you are what we call, in the oil patch, "all knowed up". :shrug:

Christianbookworm
09-17-2014, 03:10 PM
I think, FEB, you are what we call, in the oil patch, "all knowed up". :shrug:

Knowledge puffs up?

Cow Poke
09-17-2014, 03:11 PM
Knowledge puffs up?

:thumb: He's a MeOnlyist. :yes:

Christianbookworm
09-17-2014, 03:16 PM
:thumb: He's a MeOnlyist. :yes:

He thinks he got the Holy Spirit. I not sure he does...
Considering he thinks you have to understand prophecy to be saved.

Cow Poke
09-17-2014, 03:22 PM
He thinks he got the Holy Spirit. I not sure he does...
Considering he thinks you have to understand prophecy to be saved.

Anybody who ADDS TO the requirements the Bible puts forth.... :doh:

Christianbookworm
09-17-2014, 06:17 PM
Anybody who ADDS TO the requirements the Bible puts forth.... :doh:

Will...

Christianbookworm
09-18-2014, 07:46 AM
What happens if you add to Bible's requirements for salvation?

FarEastBird
09-18-2014, 04:58 PM
What happens if you add to Bible's requirements for salvation?
You have to know first if you have the authority. Without authority, our word will become garbage. Without authority, you are just like studying in Harvard and get your "master of DIVINITY" even if you are an atheist. In Harvard, you will also become authority that even (false) saints will praise you.

Christianbookworm
09-18-2014, 05:22 PM
You have to know first if you have the authority. Without authority, our word will become garbage. Without authority, you are just like studying in Harvard and get your "master of DIVINITY" even if you are an atheist. In Harvard, you will also become authority that even (false) saints will praise you.

:glare: I was asking CowPoke, not you. I know you have no authority. God knows too.

FarEastBird
09-18-2014, 06:27 PM
:glare: I was asking CowPoke, not you. I know you have no authority. God knows too.

My apology. I thought you can butt in in a forum......

Carry on chanting with your magic words.....

Christianbookworm
09-18-2014, 06:44 PM
My apology. I thought you can butt in in a forum......

Carry on chanting with your magic words.....

I respect cowpoke. I don't have respect for your rambling.

FarEastBird
09-19-2014, 03:44 AM
I respect cowpoke. I don't have respect for your rambling.
Birds of the same feather, flock together.