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Christian3
01-24-2014, 03:11 PM
Daniel 2:46
King James Version (KJV)
46 Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.

Daniel 2:46
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
Nebuchadnezzar’s Response

46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell down, paid homage to Daniel, and gave orders to present an offering and incense to him.

46 Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an offering and sweet odours unto him. (Hebrew Bible, Masoretic Text)

This is a bit different than my last question. It seems the KJV correctly says "worshipped" and agrees with the Hebrew Scriptures.

Why do other English translations say homage instead of worship?

Daniel 2:46
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Daniel Promoted

46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell on his face and did homage to Daniel, and gave orders to present to him an offering and [a]fragrant incense.

Daniel 2:46
New English Translation (NET)
46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar bowed down with his face to the ground and paid homage to Daniel. He gave orders to offer sacrifice and incense to him.

Daniel 2:46
New International Version (NIV)
46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell prostrate before Daniel and paid him honor and ordered that an offering and incense be presented to him.

Daniel 2:46
New Living Translation (NLT)
Nebuchadnezzar Rewards Daniel

46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar threw himself down before Daniel and worshiped him, and he commanded his people to offer sacrifices and burn sweet incense before him.

Not all English translations say homage instead of worship.

Daniel 2:46
American Standard Version (ASV)
46 Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odors unto him.

Daniel 2:46
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face and worshiped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet incense unto him.

Daniel 2:46
Living Bible (TLB)
46 Then Nebuchadnezzar fell to the ground before Daniel and worshiped him and commanded his people to offer sacrifices and burn sweet incense before

Isn't there a big difference between the meaning of homage and worship?

Thank you.

Cow Poke
01-24-2014, 04:34 PM
I think, just off the top of my head, that a lot of it is perception... we, in the Western world, perceive "worship" as pertaining to deity, whereas "homage" could be to a king or governor or boss. :shrug: I would not say, for example, that I "worship" my earthly father, though I certainly have paid homage to him. And, in my own humble but accurate opinion, somehow paying "homage to God" sounds a bit weak, like He's "just another" king or god.

John Reece
01-24-2014, 04:35 PM
Isn't there a big difference between the meaning of homage and worship?

Not in Hebrew.

The word rendered "paid homage to" in Daniel 2:46 is סָגַד, which is defined in BDB as "prostrate oneself in worship", and in HALOT as "to bow down in prayer".

Cow Poke
01-24-2014, 04:44 PM
Not in Hebrew.

The word rendered "paid homage to" in Daniel 2:46 is סָגַד, which is defined in BDB as "prostrate oneself in worship", and in HALOT as "to bow down in prayer".

Yeah, what JR said! :smile:

Christian3
01-24-2014, 05:11 PM
Not in Hebrew.

The word rendered "paid homage to" in Daniel 2:46 is סָגַד, which is defined in BDB as "prostrate oneself in worship", and in HALOT as "to bow down in prayer".

What about Greek? Why do some translations say homage and other translations say worship?

Cow Poke
01-24-2014, 08:18 PM
What about Greek? Why do some translations say homage and other translations say worship?

Your example was Old Testament, which would be Hebrew. What NT example would you offer? Perhaps Matthew 2:2? The Darby Translation, for example, says "Where is the king of the Jews that has been born? for we have seen his star in the east, and have come to do him homage." while most other translations use worship or honor or "bow down".
4352 [e] proskynēsai προσκυνῆσαι to worship V-ANA

Matthew 2:2 V-ANA
GRK: καὶ ἤλθομεν προσκυνῆσαι αὐτῷ
NAS: and have come to worship Him.
KJV: and are come to worship him.
INT: and are come to worship him

Revelation 19:10 V-ANA
GRK: ποδῶν αὐτοῦ προσκυνῆσαι αὐτῷ καὶ
NAS: at his feet to worship him. But he said
KJV: his feet to worship him. And
INT: feet of him to worship to him And

Revelation 22:8 V-ANA
GRK: ἔβλεψα ἔπεσα προσκυνῆσαι ἔμπροσθεν τῶν
NAS: I fell down to worship at the feet
KJV: I fell down to worship before
INT: saw I fell down to worship before the

No difference.

Christian3
01-24-2014, 08:40 PM
Your example was Old Testament, which would be Hebrew. What NT example would you offer? Perhaps Matthew 2:2? The Darby Translation, for example, says "Where is the king of the Jews that has been born? for we have seen his star in the east, and have come to do him homage." while most other translations use worship or honor or "bow down".
4352 [e] proskynēsai προσκυνῆσαι to worship V-ANA

Matthew 2:2 V-ANA
GRK: καὶ ἤλθομεν προσκυνῆσαι αὐτῷ
NAS: and have come to worship Him.
KJV: and are come to worship him.
INT: and are come to worship him

Revelation 19:10 V-ANA
GRK: ποδῶν αὐτοῦ προσκυνῆσαι αὐτῷ καὶ
NAS: at his feet to worship him. But he said
KJV: his feet to worship him. And
INT: feet of him to worship to him And

Revelation 22:8 V-ANA
GRK: ἔβλεψα ἔπεσα προσκυνῆσαι ἔμπροσθεν τῶν
NAS: I fell down to worship at the feet
KJV: I fell down to worship before
INT: saw I fell down to worship before the

No difference.

I noted the Greek translations of Daniel 2:46 in my first post.

foudroyant
01-24-2014, 08:43 PM
Wouldn't Revelation 3:9 be an example where proskynew would not mean worship?

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. (KJV)
Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. (NASB)
Look! I will bring some people who belong to Satan's group. They call themselves Jews, but they are not real Jews. They lie. Look, I will make them come and kneel down in front of you. They will know that I have loved you.(WE)

One Bad Pig
01-24-2014, 08:51 PM
I noted the Greek translations of Daniel 2:46 in my first post.
:huh: Where?

Cow Poke
01-24-2014, 08:53 PM
Wouldn't Revelation 3:9 be an example where proskynew would not mean worship?

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. (KJV)
Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. (NASB)
Look! I will bring some people who belong to Satan's group. They call themselves Jews, but they are not real Jews. They lie. Look, I will make them come and kneel down in front of you. They will know that I have loved you.(WE)

I don't think so. ....

Behold, I will make - Greek, "I give" - δίδωμι didōmi; that is, I will arrange matters so that this shall occur. The word implies that he had power to do this, and consequently proves that he has power over the heart of man, and Call secure such a result as he chooses.

Them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews - Who profess to be Jews, but are really of the synagogue of Satan. See the notes on Revelation 2:9. The meaning is, that, though they were of Jewish extraction, and boasted much of being Jews, yet they were really under the influence of Satan, and their assemblages deserved to be called his "synagogue."

And are not, but do lie - It is a false profession altogether. Compare notes on 1 John 1:6.

Behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet - The word rendered "worship" here, means, properly, to full prostrate; and then to do homage, or to worship in the proper sense, as this was commonly done by falling prostrate. See the notes on Matthew 2:2. So far as the word is concerned, it may refer either to spiritual homage, that is, the worship of God; or it may mean respect as shown to superiors. If it is used here in the sense of divine worship properly so called, it means that they would be constrained to come and worship "before them," or in their very presence; if it is used in the more general signification, it means that they would be constrained to show them honor and respect. The latter is the probable meaning; that is, that they would be constrained to acknowledge that they were the children of God, or that God regarded them with his favor. It does not mean necessarily that they would themselves be converted to Christ, but that, as they had been accustomed to revile and oppose those who were true Christians, they would be constrained to come and render them the respect due to those who were sincerely endeavoring to serve their Maker. The truth taught here is, that it is in the power of the Lord Jesus so to turn the hearts of all the enemies of religion that they shall be brought to show respect to it; so to incline the minds of all people that they shall honor the church, or be at least outwardly its friends. Such homage the world shall yet be constrained to pay to it.


Hmmmm... I forgot how the CITE tags work? :huh:

Cow Poke
01-24-2014, 09:04 PM
I noted the Greek translations of Daniel 2:46 in my first post.

OK, perhaps we have a problem here. Either you're unaware that Daniel, being part of the Old Testament, was written in Hebrew, or maybe you're playing games?

I'm taking you quite seriously until I have reason to believe otherwise, so I'll try to explain better.

The Hebrew word John Reese discussed is the word from which all the other translations you cited derive. In other words, all the "translations" you offered are merely attempts to translate the HEBREW word found in the text. When you mentioned GREEK, I assumed (and I think properly so) you wanted some examples from the NEW TESTAMENT, so I looked up some examples of where the GREEK equivalent was sometimes translated "worship" and sometimes "honor" or "homage".

Perhaps you can tell us why you're interested in the difference?

John Reece
01-24-2014, 10:24 PM
What about Greek? Why do some translations say homage and other translations say worship?

As you have cited only OT texts, for a Greek example I'll go to the LXX of Daniel 2:46, wherein the rendering of Hebrew סְגִד is προσκυνέω, which in the LEH Septuagint lexicon is defined generally as "to fall down and worship, to do reverence to, to do obeisance to, to prostrate oneself before, to salute".

The reason for varying translations of both the Hebrew word and the Greek word is due to the fact that both have similar semantic ranges that allow for differing renderings depending on context and interpretive judgment.

Geert van den Bos
01-25-2014, 08:10 AM
As you have cited only OT texts, for a Greek example I'll go to the LXX of Daniel 2:46, wherein the rendering of Hebrew סְגִד is προσκυνέω, which in the LEH Septuagint lexicon is defined generally as "to fall down and worship, to do reverence to, to do obeisance to, to prostrate oneself before, to salute".

The reason for varying translations of both the Hebrew word and the Greek word is due to the fact that both have similar semantic ranges that allow for differing renderings depending on context and interpretive judgment.



προσκυνέω is also to be found in Matthew 28:16-17,

Οἱ δὲ ἕνδεκα μαθηταὶ ἐπορεύθησαν εἰς τὴν Γαλιλαίαν εἰς τὸ ὄρος οὗ ἐτάξατο αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς, καὶ ἰδόντες αὐτὸν προσεκύνησαν, οἱ δὲ ἐδίστασαν.
Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

And also in LXX Esther 2:2,
καὶ πάντες οἱ ἐν τῇ αὐλῇ προσεκύνουν αὐτῷ οὕτως γὰρ προσέταξεν ὁ βασιλεὺς ποιῆσαι ὁ δὲ μαρδοχαῖος οὐ προσεκύνει αὐτῷ
And all the king's servants, that were in the king's gate, bowed, and reverenced Haman: for the king had so commanded concerning him. But Mordecai bowed not, nor did him reverence.

Hebrew: וּמָרְדֳּכַי לֹא יִכְרַע וְלֹא יִשְׁתַּחֲוֶה, "umordachai lo yikra v'lo yisthacheveh" -- which is the princple of the Chess-play -- "yisthacheveh" is from the root "shachah" = to bow; from which also "shach" = Shah (the ruler of Persia) for whom all have to bow.

Now might be clear why Matthew 24:29 has: "and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" - all those who prostrate themselves to celestial signs, after
Matthew 16:1, The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.


"The sign of the Son of Man" (Matthew 24:30) being like "haot", the sign mentioned in Exodus 3:12, And He said, "For I am with you, and this is the sign for you that it was I Who sent you. When you take the people out of Egypt, you will worship God on this mountain."

"I am with you" = אֶהְיֶה עִמָּךְ, "ehyeh immach", cf Matthew 28:20, καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ μεθ' ὑμῶν εἰμι = "and see I am with you"


"you will worship God on this mountain" --
cf. Matthew 28:16, Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain that Jesus had appointed them.


Which seems to be the same mountian as mentioned in Matthew 17:1-2, And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light.

"his face shone like the sun",
cf, Matthew 24:29-30, Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 3 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man

The beforegoing verse Matthew 16:28, had said, Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
cf. Mathew 24:30, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

So now we've bound two threads together :wink:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?317-Homage-vs-worship and http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?290-Matthew-24-30-and-the-quot-seeing-quot

Christian3
01-25-2014, 01:18 PM
As you have cited only OT texts, for a Greek example I'll go to the LXX of Daniel 2:46, wherein the rendering of Hebrew סְגִד is προσκυνέω, which in the LEH Septuagint lexicon is defined generally as "to fall down and worship, to do reverence to, to do obeisance to, to prostrate oneself before, to salute".

The reason for varying translations of both the Hebrew word and the Greek word is due to the fact that both have similar semantic ranges that allow for differing renderings depending on context and interpretive judgment.

I'm sorry I confused you. It made sense in my head. LOL

One example I gave on this passage was from the Hebrew to English.

The rest were from the Hebrew to Greek to English.

Cow Poke
01-25-2014, 01:45 PM
I'm sorry I confused you. It made sense in my head. LOL

One example I gave on this passage was from the Hebrew to English.

The rest were from the Hebrew to Greek to English.

Always best to eliminate the middleman when possible. :smile: Go to the source, or as close to the source as you can get.

Have you ever played "Post Office", or "Telephone"?

Christian3
01-25-2014, 06:26 PM
OK, perhaps we have a problem here. Either you're unaware that Daniel, being part of the Old Testament, was written in Hebrew, or maybe you're playing games?

I am well aware that the Hebrew Scriptures were written in Hebrew.

I do not play games.




Perhaps you can tell us why you're interested in the difference?

A Muslim said the different translations were evidence that the Bible is "corrupted," and I wanted to set him straight with some help from people on this board.

One Bad Pig
01-25-2014, 07:27 PM
One example I gave on this passage was from the Hebrew to English.

The rest were from the Hebrew to Greek to English.
This statement confuses me. All the translations you identify in your first post were done directly from the Hebrew OT.

One Bad Pig
01-25-2014, 07:30 PM
Always best to eliminate the middleman when possible. :smile: Go to the source, or as close to the source as you can get.

Have you ever played "Post Office", or "Telephone"?
These are really poor examples of "middlemen."

A rabbinic aphorism is that "Reading the Tanakh in translation is like kissing your bride through the veil."

JohnnyP
01-25-2014, 08:23 PM
A Muslim said the different translations were evidence that the Bible is "corrupted," and I wanted to set him straight with some help from people on this board.

You could start by asking him if different translations of the Quran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran_translations) is evidence that the Quran is corrupted.

Cow Poke
01-25-2014, 10:49 PM
A Muslim said the different translations were evidence that the Bible is "corrupted," and I wanted to set him straight with some help from people on this board.

If I might kindly and respectfully suggest... a lot of times it really helps to start with the "why" of what you're asking. So many threads begin with a question that sounds sincere enough, but turns out to be an attempt to get somebody to say something they can be pounced on for, or ... whatever.

You might find you get a lot better answers, and in much shorter time, when you include the "why". I apologize for suspecting this might be a "game" you were playing, but all too often, that ends up being the case.

As for your Muslim friend, it would have been good to explain that "context" is crucial in understanding which meaning of a word should be used, when multiple meanings are possible.

Christian3
01-25-2014, 10:51 PM
This statement confuses me. All the translations you identify in your first post were done directly from the Hebrew OT.

Take another look. One was from the Hebrew to English. The rest were from the LXX -- Hebrew to Greek to English.

Christian3
01-25-2014, 10:53 PM
You could start by asking him if different translations of the Quran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran_translations) is evidence that the Quran is corrupted.

LOL I already did. It is hard to get anywhere with a Muslim.

Christian3
01-25-2014, 11:11 PM
If I might kindly and respectfully suggest... a lot of times it really helps to start with the "why" of what you're asking. So many threads begin with a question that sounds sincere enough, but turns out to be an attempt to get somebody to say something they can be pounced on for, or ... whatever.

You might find you get a lot better answers, and in much shorter time, when you include the "why".

It shouldn't make any difference.




I apologize for suspecting this might be a "game" you were playing, but all too often, that ends up being the case.

Apology accepted.

As John Reece knows, I have a lot of questions. Some come from trying to explain to Muslims without making a mistake.

Others are my own.

For instance I have a question about something Apostle Paul said that I do not understand, even after reading many commentaries and even after a Messianic Jew explained it to me. I still don't get it.

Cow Poke
01-25-2014, 11:19 PM
It shouldn't make any difference.

I respectfully disagree.

I have a friend in Louisiana (a whole different Country than Texas) who's an older and wiser gentleman. I truly enjoy discussions with him, and have great respect for him.

I love the way he asks questions... (you're going to have to imagine the strong Cajun accent, cause I can't type it)

He'll as a question, then, BEFORE I CAN START TO ANSWER, he'll add "lemme tell you were I'm goin widdat"... and he'll tell my WHY he's asking the question. It saves a lot of time and trouble, and keeps me focused.

On a HUMOROUS note, here's an example I use...

A little boy asked his mom, "Mom, where did I come from?". She knew it was only a matter of time before "those discussions" began, so she told him to go ask his father. "Dad, where did I come from", he asked his Dad. Dad told him to ask Mom, and he said he already did, and SHE told him to ask DAD. They decided to have "the talk" after supper that night.

So, they sat Bobby down and very nervously explained about love and commitment and procreation and... even SEX.....

When they got all done, they asked Bobby, "any questions?"

he said, "well, wow -- that was all very fascinating, but what I meant was --- Jimmy comes from Pennsylvania --- where do *I* come from?"


It matters.