Gay Activists Target Students

[Rubia Warren]

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=32042





BRAVE NEW SCHOOLS
'Gay' activists target students
Seek 'celebration' of homosexuality, reject 'heterosexism'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: April 14, 2003
2:10 p.m. Eastern



© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com

"Gay" activists are pushing an agenda in Canadian schools aimed to have students, teachers and principals "celebrate" homosexual and transgendered people, reports the Vancouver Sun.

Two men leading the charge – Murray Warren and Peter Cook – filed a complaint with the British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal to compel teachers to deliver positive messages about homosexuals and transgendered people in every subject, in every classroom.

The complaint alleges discrimination by the education ministry for ignoring calls for homophobia and "heterosexism" to be addressed in the classroom.

"People want to see us [teachers] address homophobia across the board," Warren, a Coquitlam teacher, told the Sun in an interview.

But Warren and long-time partner Cook aren't satisfied with mere tolerance or acceptance of the homosexual lifestye. According to the paper, the men also seek to stamp out "heterosexism," which they describe as the "institutionalized assumption that everyone is, or should be, heterosexual, and that heterosexuality is inherently superior to, and preferable to, homosexuality."

"Heterosexism is far more insidious than homophobia," Warren said. "Think of the thousands and thousands of kids who would have loved to have taken a person of the same gender [to the prom] – or worn a dress if they are transgendered. But they couldn't because they never would have survived."

The duo's campaign recently gained the backing of the Supreme Court of Canada which ruled on same-sex books in Surrey classrooms. And the Canadian Teachers' Federation endorsed the curriculum developed by activists to support same-sex and transgendered youth, which includes displays, parades and "gay"-straight clubs.

One of the activists' publications distributed in schools tells educators to strive for comfort with their own sexuality.

"We have to get away from teaching the complexities of the immune system, getting bogged down by moralistic discussions, presenting a planned heterosexual bias or continuing the practice of sexist attitudes," the publication states. "We need to work toward discussing sexuality as a normal part of development. Our youth need to know how to plan for sex, how to talk about it with a potential partner, and how to be a safe and considerate lover."

The pair has met with opposition from parents and teachers who see their efforts as social engineering disguised as good intentions to keep students safe.

Myra Ottewell, a teacher in Surrey, suggests activists, in their effort to stop one type of prejudice, are encouraging another.

Ottewell told the Sun she won't abandon her Christian belief in the sanctity of monogamous, heterosexual marriage to promote, nurture or celebrate homosexuality. She also questioned why homosexual activists have been allowed to write and distribute curriculum she insists is ideological.

"Do we have pro-life educators writing resources? Of course not. Or teachers who are in business? No. It seems we have opened the door to some groups where we wouldn't tolerate it for others," she stated.

Parents argue the advocacy of homosexuality undermines their rights.

Nasima Nastoh, a mother who lost her son to suicide because of "gay" harassment in school, told the Sun she fears activists are going too far. Before jumping from the Pattullo Bridge to escape bullying, Hamed Nastoh, 14, wrote in a suicide note that he wasn't homosexual but was taunted by peers who called him "gay," "faggot" and "queer." He said he couldn't stand it any longer.

"We have to teach the kids not to use those words to taunt and tease," Nastoh said and stressed the students are given too much information – especially about sex changes – that frightens them.

"The school's focus on social engineering has got out of control. Not just with homosexuality but also feminism, unionism and sexism," said Kari Simpson with the Citizens Research Institute. Simpson is seeking intervenor status before the human rights tribunal.

"In this day and age, the last thing children need is for schools to sexualize every topic. That would be what most parents are concerned about – the sexualization of our education system," Simpson added.

Pushing homosexuality in U.S. classrooms

WorldNetDaily has reported that promotion of homosexuality has become increasingly common in public schools south of the Canadian border as some U.S. educators view the issue as a second civil-rights movement.

California lawmakers even passed legislation revising state curriculum to require educators to "acknowledge lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender historical figures, events, concepts, and issues."

Studies indicating homosexual and bisexual youth to be at greater risk for being victimized and more likely to experience anxiety, low self-esteem, depression, to abuse substances and contemplate or attempt suicide prompted the legislation. According to the California Alliance for Pride and Equality, "students who describe themselves as lesbian or gay are five times more likely to miss school because of felling [sic] unsafe. Twenty-eight percent are forced to drop-out."

But the instruction materials and methods used in the promotion of homosexuality in California schools have drawn a lot of fire.

WorldNetDaily reported parents filed a lawsuit against the Novato Unified School District in Novato, Calif., for authorizing pro-homosexual assemblies without any prior notice or parental consent. The presentations, entitled "Cootie Shots," exposed elementary school children as young as seven to skits containing gay and lesbian overtures by theatrical members of the community.

WorldNetdaily also reported California Assemblyman Dennis Mountjoy, R-Monrovia, took issue last year with sexually explicit instructional materials approved by the Los Angeles Unified School District for use in "diversity" and "safety" programs presented to elementary through high school students, which included instructions on homosexual sodomy and a glorified account of lesbian pedophilia.

Mountjoy sponsored a bill aimed at prohibiting the promotion of homosexuality in public education. The measure was summarily defeated without discussion.

"The material is being put forward under the guise of tolerance and diversity, but it's inappropriate. It's lewd and lascivious ... and is darn embarrassing. Here I sit in my office reading my porn. It made me turn red, and I don't easily turn red," Mountjoy told WorldNetDaily. Mountjoy concludes the committee's vote against his bill sanctions continued use of the material in public schools.

Schools also face the threat of lawsuits by advocacy groups such as the Gay Lesbian and Straight Education Network if they fail to address "student-on-student abuse based on sexual orientation." On its website, GLSEN applauds a "landmark settlement" received by a Pennsylvania "gay" teen.

"There are clear lessons to be learned by school administrators and staff ... that teachers and staff take a risk – a risk that can have dire fiscal implications on their districts – when this kind of maltreatment goes unchecked," said Executive Director Kevin Jennings.

Pro-family advocates seek to turn the tables on the homosexual activists, adopting the same tactic.

Armed with a recent national survey, The American Family Association of Michigan, is alerting education officials they face legal liability for negligence should physical, mental or emotional harm come to children who experiment with homosexual behavior as a result of schools caving to the demands of homosexual activists.

As WND reported in February, 71 percent of parents responding to a poll conducted nationally said they opposed sex education programs that teach students that homosexual love relationships are comparable to heterosexual relationships.

"Parents nationally and in Michigan don't want their children indoctrinated or their health put at risk by 'politically correct' sex ed or diversity programs which tell kids there's nothing wrong with homosexual sex," said AFA-Michigan President Gary Glenn.

Glenn cites a Harvard Medical School study of 4,000 high school students which found that "gay-lesbian-bisexual [GLB] youth report disproportionate risk for a variety of health risk and problem behaviors ... engag(ing) in twice the mean number of risk behaviors as did the overall population."

[The Laughing Man]

Today @ 09:20 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=67507#post67507)
La Rubia:

"Gay" activists are pushing an agenda in Canadian schools

Gee. Canada. Big surprise.


aimed to have students, teachers and principals "celebrate" homosexual and transgendered people, reports the Vancouver Sun.

See. This is what people mean by "special rights" for homosexuals. Yeah, we're supposed to "celebrate" them, but no one "celebrates" heterosexual people in schools (and if you tried to get them to, you'd probably be condemned as a close-minded, gay-bashing, homophobic, right-wing extremist, fundy Christian bigot). Come to think of it, it is also what people mean by "indoctrination" of young children by homosexuals. Children like celebrations and to be celebrated. Well, what do you think is going to happen when they see people celebrated for their deviant sexual orientation? They're going to want to be celebrated that way too, just like they do with anything else they are celebrated for.


Two men leading the charge – Murray Warren and Peter Cook – filed a complaint with the British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal to compel

Here's the synonyms for "compel" that my Roget's Thesaurus lists:

force, make, drive, coerce, constrain, enforce, necessitate, oblige; force one's hand, impose on, twist one's arm; force upon, press; cram, ram, thrust or force down the throat; make a point of, insist upon, take no denial; put down; require, exact, tax, put in force, put teeth in; restrain, hold down; draft, conscript, impress, shanghai

Yeah, "compel" is the perfect word for what they are trying to do.


teachers to deliver positive messages about homosexuals and transgendered people in every subject, in every classroom.

You will be assimilated. Resistence is futile.

I'd like to know what kindergarteners need to know about homosexuals and "transgendered" people. We don't even talk to them about heterosexuality. More special rights, I guess.


The complaint alleges discrimination by the education ministry for ignoring calls for homophobia and "heterosexism" to be addressed in the classroom.

Oh, great. See, I knew "homophobia" was a worn-out term. Now they have a new one to use in order to condemn people with: "heterosexism." I fully expect people will call me a "heterosexist" from now on. :ahem:

Of course, no one ever considers the existence of "heterophobia" and "homosexism."


"People want to see us [teachers] address homophobia across the board," Warren, a Coquitlam teacher, told the Sun in an interview.

Yeah, "people" want that. Who are these people? Who knows? "People" also don't want their children to be indoctrinated by homosexuals. We should listen to them as well.


But Warren and long-time partner Cook aren't satisfied with mere tolerance or acceptance of the homosexual lifestye.

Of course not! Homosexual activists are never satisfied with that.

I like that typo, too. "Lifestye." Hee hee!


According to the paper, the men also seek to stamp out "heterosexism," which they describe as the "institutionalized assumption that everyone is, or should be, heterosexual,

And homosexism is the institutionalized assumption that everyone does or should accept homosexuality as "normal."


and that heterosexuality is inherently superior to, and preferable to, homosexuality."

Isn't it? Heterosexuality is how we propagate. Even homosexuals who use in vitro fertilization are acknowledging that fact.


quot;Heterosexism is far more insidious than homophobia," Warren said.

Oh, of course it is! Folks, witness the creation of a new homosexual buzzword. Homophobia is out; heterosexism is in.


"Think of the thousands and thousands of kids who would have loved to have taken a person of the same gender [to the prom] – or worn a dress if they are transgendered. But they couldn't because they never would have survived."

:huh: "They never would have survived?" What in the world does that mean? I think these guys are playing up the situation quite a bit.


The duo's campaign recently gained the backing of the Supreme Court of Canada which ruled on same-sex books in Surrey classrooms. And the Canadian Teachers' Federation endorsed the curriculum developed by activists to support same-sex and transgendered youth, which includes displays, parades and "gay"-straight clubs.

Meanwhile, Bibles and Christian clubs are continued to be frowned upon.


One of the activists' publications distributed in schools tells educators to strive for comfort with their own sexuality.

And if you are uncomfortable, it's got nothing to do with you and everything to do with "heterosexists." :rofl:


"We have to get away from teaching the complexities of the immune system, getting bogged down by moralistic discussions, presenting a planned heterosexual bias or continuing the practice of sexist attitudes," the publication states.

Translation: don't use your brain and just accept what we have to say.


"We need to work toward discussing sexuality as a normal part of development. Our youth need to know how to plan for sex, how to talk about it with a potential partner, and how to be a safe and considerate lover."

"Fistgate" anyone?


The pair has met with opposition from parents and teachers who see their efforts as social engineering disguised as good intentions to keep students safe.

Those parents and teachers are 100% correct.


Myra Ottewell, a teacher in Surrey, suggests activists, in their effort to stop one type of prejudice, are encouraging another.

Yep.


Ottewell told the Sun she won't abandon her Christian belief in the sanctity of monogamous, heterosexual marriage to promote, nurture or celebrate homosexuality.

Good for her! :thumb:


She also questioned why homosexual activists have been allowed to write and distribute curriculum she insists is ideological.

It's because the schools are filled with people in authority who are sympathetic to their cause and viciously resistant to the opposite view.


"Do we have pro-life educators writing resources? Of course not. Or teachers who are in business? No. It seems we have opened the door to some groups where we wouldn't tolerate it for others," she stated.

Yep. I keep saying it and it keeps being proven to be true: people who whine for "tolerance" are the most intolerant of all.


Parents argue the advocacy of homosexuality undermines their rights.

Yep.


Nasima Nastoh, a mother who lost her son to suicide because of "gay" harassment in school, told the Sun she fears activists are going too far. Before jumping from the Pattullo Bridge to escape bullying, Hamed Nastoh, 14, wrote in a suicide note that he wasn't homosexual but was taunted by peers who called him "gay," "faggot" and "queer." He said he couldn't stand it any longer.

Unfortunately, homosexual activists can and will wrongly use that as an example of "heterosexism" instead of what it really is: an example of the general bullying some kids do. I fear this young man would have done the same if he had been bullied for any other reason.


"We have to teach the kids not to use those words to taunt and tease," Nastoh said and stressed the students are given too much information – especially about sex changes – that frightens them.

100% correct on all counts. Some kids will tease others for whatever reasons they wish and will continue to use that which gains the biggest reaction whether it's true or not.


"The school's focus on social engineering has got out of control. Not just with homosexuality but also feminism, unionism and sexism," said Kari Simpson with the Citizens Research Institute.

Public schools are a breeding ground for leftist causes.


Simpson is seeking intervenor status before the human rights tribunal.

"In this day and age, the last thing children need is for schools to sexualize every topic. That would be what most parents are concerned about – the sexualization of our education system," Simpson added.

And that's exactly what homosexual activists want. Never mind reading, writing and arithmetic. We have to teach tolerance. This is why they promote forcing schools to use pro-homosexual books for reading materials. It's not the act of reading that's important - it's what you are reading. The same goes for writing and arithmetic. I don't remember if it was here or on another board where an article about pro-homosexual math instruction (i.e. math problems using homosexual language: "Mary and her two moms drove 5 miles at 45 mph and 10 miles at 55 mph...").

[lordsnooty]

Today @ 03:20 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=67507#post67507)
La Rubia:
"Parents nationally and in Michigan don't want their children indoctrinated or their health put at risk by 'politically correct' sex ed or diversity programs which tell kids there's nothing wrong with homosexual sex," said AFA-Michigan President Gary Glenn.

Thank God for Gary Glenn!

Homosexuality is disgusting, depraved, deviant, and some kind of lifestyle choice taken by perverted and evil liberals. How dare they teach our children how to bugger each other, under the guise of 'tolerance'? If my children are going to learn anything about buggery, they'll learn it at home!

Let's hope that when Gary Glenn has dealt with the queers, that he can move on and get those coloureds out of our schools and into the workhouses where they belong. Yee-haah!

(Theme to Rawhide plays out...)

Paul
(Only kidding, 'homosexuality disapprovers'! Satire is allowed! It's allowed! I checked the rules and everything!)

[Rubia Warren]

Good post, Jinx.:yipee:

[The Laughing Man]

Idiotic post, snoot. :ahem:

Oh, wait. "It was just a joke," right?

[Rubia Warren]

:lol:

Yeah, Jinx... I like that new buzzword "heterosexist"......"homophobe" was getting so old and "last week", you know? "heterosexist".... now that's a manly man's label right there! Woo-hooo!!! Homophobe always did sound kinda wimpy.

[lordsnooty]

Today @ 05:19 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=67664#post67664)
Jinx72:

Idiotic post, snoot. :ahem:

Oh, wait. "It was just a joke," right?


Partly. But partly, I'm just sick of having your bigoted bile spat up in my face.

Paul

[lordsnooty]

Today @ 05:38 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=67706#post67706)
La Rubia:

:lol:

Yeah, Jinx... I like that new buzzword "heterosexist"......"homophobe" was getting so old and "last week", you know? "heterosexist".... now that's a manly man's label right there! Woo-hooo!!! Homophobe always did sound kinda wimpy.

I think I was right first time. You should just call yourselves 'queer haters' and have done with it.

Paul

[Rubia Warren]

Uh-oh! Heterosexist queer haters in da house!! Woot- woot!

[The Laughing Man]

Today @ 11:41 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=67710#post67710)
lordsnooty:

I think I was right first time. You should just call yourselves 'queer haters' and have done with it.

Why would I do that? Why would I lie? To justify your hatred of me? To portray myself the way you so desperately want me to be? I'm not sorry to disappoint you. I don't hate homosexuals and have NEVER used any words other than "homosexual," "gay" and "lesbian" and the like to describe them. You condemn me as a bigot, but it seems that you are the one who is truly bigotted. You can't separate sickening extremists like Fred Phelps from the vast majority of Christians who do not hate (and who, in fact, love) gays. You portray those who oppose homosexual activism and indoctrination as racists - even if it was "partly" a joke. Would you like it if I made a joke equating all homosexuals to pedophiles? Of course not. So get off your "bigotted bile" soapbox and apologize for being such a jerk.

BTW, I have a brother and two sisters. I love them all very, very much. My brother is a conservative Christian Republican like me while one of my sisters is a lesbian. Do I love my brother more than that sister? Do I hate that sister? No, of course not. I don't agree with my sister's homosexuality, but I love her just as much as I love my brother. I love everyone because I know that I am no better than anyone else. I have my own sins just as they have theirs and I have no right to hate them because of their sins.

[lordsnooty]

Today @ 06:01 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=67740#post67740)
Jinx72:
Why would I do that? Why would I lie? To justify your hatred of me? To portray myself the way you so desperately want me to be? I'm not sorry to disappoint you. I don't hate homosexuals and have NEVER used any words other than "homosexual," "gay" and "lesbian" and the like to describe them.

So what? Bigotry isn't just calling people names.

Have you ever actually listened to yourself? You show nothing but sheer contempt for homosexuality, and anyone attempting to increase awareness and tolerance.

You're full of spiteful sarcasm and nasty remarks for homosexuals that dare to stand up in public, and yet you expect me to believe that these are people that you have no objections to?


You condemn me as a bigot, but it seems that you are the one who is truly bigotted. You can't separate sickening extremists like Fred Phelps from the vast majority of Christians who do not hate (and who, in fact, love) gays.

You love them so much, you want to stifle them, tell them that they are immoral, and encourage everyone to treat them like freaks. That's some good lovin'.


You portray those who oppose homosexual activism and indoctrination as racists - even if it was "partly" a joke.

There we are again - 'homosexual indoctrination'. You must be joking about not being a bigot.


Would you like it if I made a joke equating all homosexuals to pedophiles? Of course not. So get off your "bigotted bile" soapbox and apologize for being such a jerk.

I made the comparison not to suggest that homophobic bigots are all racists (some are, most aren't), but to illustrate just how pig-ignorant homophobia is. Just as ignorant as racism.


No, of course not. I don't agree with my sister's homosexuality, but I love her just as much as I love my brother. I love everyone because I know that I am no better than anyone else. I have my own sins just as they have theirs and I have no right to hate them because of their sins.

I'm glad to hear it. But does your sister know just how strong your anti-gay opinions are? Does she read the sort of stuff you post on here? It makes me want to throw up, so goodness knows how a gay person would take it.

Paul

[Butters]

I bet not one of you checked this story out to see if it had any validity, did you? Not saying it doesn't, but you guts ate it up with a spoon. Do you believe everything the Vancouver Sun prints? Are you sure they even printed it? Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.

[Ryokan]

See, the I can see both sides. The state has an obligation to create a learning enviroment where homosexuals are not physically or emotionally abused. As there is alot of anti-homosexual feelings in schools, I know this is true, since I have spent the last 15 years of my life in such institutions, some sort of tolerance education is needed to provide such a learning enviroment. Not acceptance, tolerance. I do not accept the fact that christians look down on my homosexual friends, but I tolerate christians and do not mock them for it. People disagree with my driving an SUV, and do not accept it, but they ought to tolerate it, rather than make it the only basis for our interaction.

Tolerance can be taught with out forcing acceptance. Children need to be taught that all people, regardless if you disagree with them, are people and of equal worth.

[wienerdog]

You rock, Ryokan. I agree that there is a huge difference between not demonizing homosexuality and glorifying it. I have the traditional Christian view about homosexuality. I don't think Christian teachers should be forced to positively represent something that they think is immoral. But neither should they teach that it's immoral in public schools with public money.

[Rubia Warren]

I don't think that school is the place for kids to learn about homosexuality.... or christianity either. That's just me. And I don't hate homosexuals, either. I was just mocking with my 2 posts earlier on in the page. I get really tired of just because someone does not like homosexuality, that they are automatically a "queer hater".... most of us know someone or have loved ones who are gay, and we don't hate gay people.

[The Laughing Man]

Amen, Rubia! It's pathetic how quickly someone like Snoot jumps on the "homophobic" and "queer hater" train whenever someone says something against the homosexual agenda. It's like they've been brainwashed (perhaps not that far from the truth) and vomit out condemnation after condemnation without thinking. As always, the ones bellowing the most for "tolerance" are actually the most intolerant of all.

[Rubia Warren]

Ya can't win, no matter what you say or do, Jinx, so I just play along.

[The Laughing Man]

Here's a related article I just found, interestingly enough:

Queering the Schools (http://www.city-journal.org/html/13_2_queering_the_schools.html)

[Rubia Warren]

:rant: That makes me sooo angry!!!!
The thing that makes me so angry, is not only that it's not hetero sex, but hello? How much more do we need to talk about sex in this society? It's already EVERYWHERE. how much more do we need? ANY kind of sex...... geez, people, get a hobby, or something. It seems like that's all people want to talk about and teach kids.

[Lazy Agnostic]

"...not that there's anything wrong with it."

Just as the evolution of Zeitgeist has forced Christians to abandon any overt bigotry toward Blacks and Jews (and recently, Muslims {thanks to Franklin Graham}), so it is becoming with Homosexuals.

[lordsnooty]

Today @ 10:21 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=68124#post68124)
La Rubia:
The thing that makes me so angry, is not only that it's not hetero sex, but hello? How much more do we need to talk about sex in this society? It's already EVERYWHERE. how much more do we need? ANY kind of sex...... geez, people, get a hobby, or something. It seems like that's all people want to talk about and teach kids.

Think for a moment.

Why should kids be taught about sex? Here are some reasons, off the top of my head.

1) Teenage pregnancies occur due to ignorance about sex and contraceptives.

2) STDs are spread due to ignorance about sex and contraceptives.

3) Ignorance of sex leads to fear of sex.

4) Ignorance of sex leads to bullying (in cases of homosexuality, the early onset of puberty, and so forth).

I simply cannot understand why so many Christians hold ignorance in such high regard.

Do any of you actually have kids? And do you really think that they're so stupid and impressionable that sex-ed will turn them into homosexual sex-addicted perverts?

Come on, get real. You didn't turn into sexual deviants upon hearing about homosexuality, and neither will your kids. I'm not saying you're bigoted for wanting sex in general out of the classroom, but I would ask you to think about the benefits of education over ignorance.

Paul

[Pilgrim]

Ok then, why should they be taught in public school? Oh I know, because parents are too lazy to put ther emote down and have a conversation with their kids.

I no more want my kids to learn about sexuality and moralitya t school than I want them to learn math from pulpit.

[djnoz]

This is a democracy. I have no problem with this kind of sex education, so long as things are taught in neutral, factual manner. Trying to impose opinions upon kids is the type of behaviour exhibited by totalitarian governments. The child should be able to make their own mind up - most importantly from the morals taught by the parents.

School is for education. :smile:

[Lazy Agnostic]

Today @ 05:42 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=68133#post68133)
lordsnooty:



Think for a moment.

Why should kids be taught about sex? Here are some reasons, off the top of my head.

1) Teenage pregnancies occur due to ignorance about sex and contraceptives.

2) STDs are spread due to ignorance about sex and contraceptives.

3) Ignorance of sex leads to fear of sex.

4) Ignorance of sex leads to bullying (in cases of homosexuality, the early onset of puberty, and so forth).

I simply cannot understand why so many Christians hold ignorance in such high regard.

Do any of you actually have kids? And do you really think that they're so stupid and impressionable that sex-ed will turn them into homosexual sex-addicted perverts?

Come on, get real. You didn't turn into sexual deviants upon hearing about homosexuality, and neither will your kids. I'm not saying you're bigoted for wanting sex in general out of the classroom, but I would ask you to think about the benefits of education over ignorance.

Paul And perhaps it's time to teach them that auoteroticism is a healthy tool, not the fastlane to perdition that plagues so many.

[Vorkosigan]

This is a democracy. I have no problem with this kind of sex education, so long as things are taught in neutral, factual manner. Trying to impose opinions upon kids is the type of behaviour exhibited by totalitarian governments. The child should be able to make their own mind up - most importantly from the morals taught by the parents.School is for education. :smile:

How can kids make their own minds up if they don't have correct facts and information?

Further, in any society, people have to tolerate the existence of others with opinions different from their own. How do you expect people to co-exist if certain breeds of Christian display bigotry toward people who have sex in ways they don't approve of? The problem here isn't gay people, but the Christians who hate them, and incorporate that hate into the construction of their own personal identity.

Vorkosigan

[Vorkosigan]

Today @ 10:54 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=68146#post68146)
Pilgrim:

Ok then, why should they be taught in public school? Oh I know, because parents are too lazy to put ther emote down and have a conversation with their kids.
.

Do you have kids? Teaching one's own children is no simple trick. Further, many parents do not have the correct information. Do you know offhand all the diseases of the female reproductive tract? What the risks are for the major STDs? The cycle of the male orgasm? The odds of pregnancy under each birth control regime? The latest from cognitive sciences and psychology and sociology on human sexual behavior? Most people don't. That's why we have schools, and trained personnel to execute teaching duties.

Vorkosigan

[Woman]

LA:


And perhaps it's time to teach them that auoteroticism is a healthy tool, not the fastlane to perdition that plagues so many.

What??? And take all the joy away from people like the nuns who went so far as to give instructions on how to wash our "private places" in a manner that would not cause evil thoughts? (this to the girls, I can only imagine the heavy, guilt laden, shame trips that the boys were getting)


The methods used to instill fear in kids has changed, but the results have not. Guilt and shame pervades their lives. They still "do it" and as far as I know hairy palms and blindness are no more prevalent now than they were 50 years ago.

[Butters]

You guys just suck this crap up don't you?

"At a high school in prosperous Newton, Massachusetts, it’s “To B GLAD Day”—or, less delicately, Transgender, Bisexual, Gay, Lesbian Awareness Day. An advocacy session for students and teachers features three self-styled transgendered individuals—a member of the senior class and two recent graduates. One of the transgenders, born female, announces that “he” had been taking hormones for 16 months. “Right now I am a 14-year-old boy going through puberty and a 55-year-old woman going through menopause,” she complains. “I am probably the moodiest person in the world.” A second panelist declares herself an “androgyne in between both genders of society.” She adds, “Gender is just a bunch of stereotypes from society, but I am completely personal, and my gender is fluid.”"

Which high school? What are the names of these people being enterviewed?

"This movement to “queer” the public schools, as activists put it,"

What activist? Who? Where? When? What ever happened to journalism 101?

"Some of the most explicit homosexual material has shown up in classrooms. An Ohio teacher encouraged her freshman students to read Entries From a Hot Pink Notebook, a teen coming-out story that includes a graphic depiction of sex between two 14-year-old boys. In Newton, Massachusetts, a public school teacher assigned his 15-year-old students The Perks of Being a Wallflower, a farrago of sexual confusion, featuring an episode of bestiality as one of its highlights. Such books represent a growth industry for publishers, including mainstream firms."

Who? What school?

You guys just love gay bashibg don't you? Have any of you even looked at the GLSEN web-site? Seems to me is all their trying to to is stand up for themselves.
But, if we let that happen, who knows who'll be next, damn Jews, niggers, A-rabs and God knows what other scum will start gripping about being beaten and killed, then where will our freedom go. My daddy and grandaddy had the freedom and support of the church and government to put these heathens in their place, and I want it to.

Let me ask you this, WWJD?
P.S., I've heard he was BI, wasn't it in the book of Enoch? Isn't that why it didn't make it into the bible?

I've got to quit reading these boaeds, it's scaring me that people like you still exist.

[Jimmy Higgins]

Today @ 06:39 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=68219#post68219)
Vorkosigan:
How can kids make their own minds up if they don't have correct facts and information? I'll tell you how, by telling them just to "say no". Uh... yeah, that's it. Ignoring facts and promoting ignorance have helped many things.

I'm sure if the parents had all the details, then they'd be good teachers, but seeing that people aren't all equiped with knowledge, such as what STD's are or more importantly symptons and signs and how to prevent pregnancy, such as the millions and millions of people that don't understand birth control, it may be better to leave the details to the authorities.

I mean some people teach their kids that the world is 6000 years old, so I think this is a good indication that science, which includes the issues with sexual intercourse education should be on the people that actually have a clue. The teachers can teach the details of the science. The parents can teach the morals of the act.

[The Laughing Man]

Today @ 04:42 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=68133#post68133)
lordsnooty:

Think for a moment.

She is thinking. Unlike...


Why should kids be taught about sex? Here are some reasons, off the top of my head.

1) Teenage pregnancies occur due to ignorance about sex and contraceptives.

2) STDs are spread due to ignorance about sex and contraceptives.

3) Ignorance of sex leads to fear of sex.

4) Ignorance of sex leads to bullying (in cases of homosexuality, the early onset of puberty, and so forth).

Quite frankly, this is bull. Kids have gotten all sorts of sex education for years, but these things you cite are still a problem. Obviously, lack of sex education isn't the problem. It's like teaching a someone about a gun and how to use it, but not teaching them the deeper understanding of appropriate use. (Of course, the liberal-minded people think proper use of sex is to do it if it feels good with whomever you want whenever you want.)


I simply cannot understand why so many Christians hold ignorance in such high regard.

We don't. That's your bigotted, stereotypical, false view of "so many" Christians.


Do any of you actually have kids?

Yep.


And do you really think that they're so stupid and impressionable that sex-ed will turn them into homosexual sex-addicted perverts?

Stupid? Maybe not. Impressionable? Definitely.


Come on, get real. You didn't turn into sexual deviants upon hearing about homosexuality, and neither will your kids.

I think it's safe to say that most of us didn't have the kind of indoctrination that is being used on children as young as kindergarteners.


I'm not saying you're bigoted for wanting sex in general out of the classroom,

Another bigotted, stereotypical, false view. Christians don't "want sex in general out of the classroom."


but I would ask you to think about the benefits of education over ignorance.

And I would ask you to think about the benefits of responsibility and consequences over education.

[The Laughing Man]

But, if we let that happen, who knows who'll be next, damn Jews, niggers, A-rabs and God knows what other scum

Alright, that's enough. First Snoot and now you. If this keeps up, I'll personally be putting people on ignore, but will also be making formal complaints to Dee Dee for this kind of irrational behavior, which really is against board rules. Look here: "Flaming" (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/show.php?pg=decorum#flaming).

"If a strong and potentially inflammatory characterization is used, it must be backed up as to the truth of the matter. Even with such substantiation, such characterizations shall not be used to such a degree that they are unnecessarily disruptive and cease to contribute to or assist in meaningful dialog."

[wienerdog]

Let me ask you this, WWJD?
P.S., I've heard he was BI, wasn't it in the book of Enoch? Isn't that why it didn't make it into the bible?
No, it was in the Secret Book of Mark. The reason it didn't make it into the Bible is that it never actually existed. It's a hypothetical document that has been proposed by a few left-wing scholars, and has been rejected by nearly all scholars as ridiculous.

[Rubia Warren]

I have 3 kids, snoot.
I know you cannot be this completely dense. We now have more sex education than ever before....and more STDs, teen pregnancies, etc. than ever before. So, you are saying that we need MORE?! Do you honestly believe that in my brother's health class (so that butters doesn't get his feathers in a ruffle, that's at East Noble High School in Kendallville, Indiana- go check it out, and knock yourself out.), they get to pass around penises, and vaginas, and feel them? Does that mean, that because my 14 year old brother got to touch a plastic replica of a vagina in health class,and is encouraged to look at it, feel it, etc. he is more likely to not get a girl pregnant, or get an STD??? It's just not even necessary, and ridiculous.
I think you're all just doing this because you hate christians. You're a bunch of Jesus-haters.
Now, didn't that sound completely stupid?? That is how stupid you guys sound when you say that to me and Jinx...
I have 3 small children, I don't treat them as if I were a nun, trying to instill shame in them, I teach them things age-appropriately about their bodies, and I answer any questions they have about anything (and let me tell you, I have one daughter who is VERY inquisitive.) I don't want them to be curious and feel like they can't talk to me about things like I felt with my mother. At the same time, I do not see the necessity to constantly talk about sex, watch sexual stuff on tv, read about sex, think about sex, and the list goes on, all day and all night!!!! I have a life! I got hobbies! Sex? BIG DEAL! We almost all do it, it's a part of life, but why is so much of society run by it?
I have one question for all of you Jesus-haters (keep using your stupid labels, I'll keep using mine):
And be honest. What in the world do you think of a 10 year old girl who dresses like a prostitute? Does it bother you? What do you think of a 10 year old girl who gets caught performing sex acts on another kid? Do you not feel anything for that 10 year old girl? Or is that completely normal?

[Rubia Warren]

Today @ 05:42 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=68223#post68223)
Vorkosigan:



Do you have kids? Teaching one's own children is no simple trick. Further, many parents do not have the correct information. Do you know offhand all the diseases of the female reproductive tract? What the risks are for the major STDs? The cycle of the male orgasm? The odds of pregnancy under each birth control regime? The latest from cognitive sciences and psychology and sociology on human sexual behavior? Most people don't. That's why we have schools, and trained personnel to execute teaching duties.

Vorkosigan
I have kids, and I have almost everything on that list... it's not exactly rocket science, you know?

[The Laughing Man]

Today @ 05:49 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=68236#post68236)
Butters:

You guys just suck this crap up don't you?

No more than the crap you suck up.


Which high school?

Uh, as was stated at the beginning of the paragraph, a high school in Newton, Massachusetts. :dufus: There's only two (I checked), but what does it matter?


What are the names of these people being enterviewed?

What? You want the author to divulge the names of minors without the consent of their parents?


What activist?

"All of them, I think." (Hey, name that movie!)


Who? Where? When?

What? You want the author to document each and every instance of some homosexual activist using the term "queering?"


What ever happened to journalism 101?

Oh, yay. Journalistic elitism.


You guys just love gay bashibg don't you?

Who's "gay bashing?" Please cite examples. Disagreement does not equate to "bashing," otherwise many people here would be guilty of "Christian bashing."


Have any of you even looked at the GLSEN web-site?

At least once a month. I like to see the spin they put on their agenda.


Seems to me is all their trying to to is stand up for themselves.

Yeah, that's what the people who support racist websites say, too. "Hey, the Aryan Nation is just trying to stand up for themselves."


Let me ask you this, WWJD?

He would tell homosexuals that their "lifestyle" was sinful and that he couldn't support it, but that he loved them anyway.


P.S., I've heard he was BI, wasn't it in the book of Enoch? Isn't that why it didn't make it into the bible?

:ahem: If you go with the homosexual party-line, Jesus was a flaming homosexual.


I've got to quit reading these boaeds, it's scaring me that people like you still exist.

Yeah, it's amazing that loving Christians "still exist." Heaven forbid!

[The Laughing Man]

I'm with you all the way, Rubia. You go, girl! :yipee:

[Jimmy Higgins]

Today @ 08:07 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=68393#post68393)
La Rubia:
[quote]....but why is so much of society run by it? Money. Sex sells well. But sexual references in television, in movies, etc... really is not the same as in school, seeing that school is about education. In movies and tv, sex is being used as a tool to get attention.

And be honest. What in the world do you think of a 10 year old girl who dresses like a prostitute? Does it bother you? What do you think of a 10 year old girl who gets caught performing sex acts on another kid? Are we saying this 6th grader is a prostitute or just dressing like one? Isn't there a difference? Brittney Spears dresses like one, but reportedly is not one. As for a 10 year old engaging in sex, are you blaming the education of sex ed for it? If not, then perhaps this is a reality to deal with. Sex existed well before the 1960's, contrary to popular belief. And young people did get pregnant. This is not something that is new. AIDS is new, not sex.

Do you not feel anything for that 10 year old girl? Or is that completely normal? When does puberty begin? If it starts about here, then I'd say tendencies in a girl that age is not unusual.

What is your suggestion then? Ignore sex education in school. Hope the parents are literate enough to know THE facts, not just what they think they know? I'd rather not have a bunch of people out there still thinking that AIDS is a "fag" thing because they were never taught better.

[lordsnooty]

Today @ 12:08 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=68265#post68265)
Jinx72:
Quite frankly, this is bull. Kids have gotten all sorts of sex education for years, but these things you cite are still a problem. Obviously, lack of sex education isn't the problem.

Lack of adequate education is the problem.


(Of course, the liberal-minded people think proper use of sex is to do it if it feels good with whomever you want whenever you want.)

You assume this is my view, presumably. You are wrong.


We don't. That's your bigotted, stereotypical, false view of "so many" Christians.

You have admitted that you wish children to be kept ignorant. You want a free reign to preach your addled morality without schools contradicting you.


Stupid? Maybe not. Impressionable? Definitely.

Not impressionable enough to do something completely contrary to their nature, I suspect. Because that's what homosexual acts are, to straight people.


I think it's safe to say that most of us didn't have the kind of indoctrination that is being used on children as young as kindergarteners.

Okay, show me the evidence that children that young are being given instructions on buggery. Or any other overtly sexual information, come to that.


Another bigotted, stereotypical, false view. Christians don't "want sex in general out of the classroom."

Really? You might want to tell that to your partner in this thread, because I was paraphrasing her!


And I would ask you to think about the benefits of responsibility and consequences over education.

Huh? Surely that's what sex education lessons should be all about?

Paul

[lordsnooty]

Today @ 01:07 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=68393#post68393)
La Rubia:
I know you cannot be this completely dense.

I'm so glad you realise this.


We now have more sex education than ever before....and more STDs, teen pregnancies, etc. than ever before. So, you are saying that we need MORE?!

Yes. They need better quality sex-ed. If they were in full posession of the facts, there is no way that schoolgirls would let themselves become pregnant.

Frankly, it's abstinence campaigners that have to shoulder a lot of the blame, for preferring ignorance to education.


Do you honestly believe that in my brother's health class (so that butters doesn't get his feathers in a ruffle, that's at East Noble High School in Kendallville, Indiana- go check it out, and knock yourself out.), they get to pass around penises, and vaginas, and feel them?

The horror!

Admittedly, I don't see a huge advantage to handling plastic willies, when good quality pictures will usually suffice.


Does that mean, that because my 14 year old brother got to touch a plastic replica of a vagina in health class,and is encouraged to look at it, feel it, etc. he is more likely to not get a girl pregnant, or get an STD??? It's just not even necessary, and ridiculous.

Maybe that particular part of sex-ed was more about the science and anatomy stuff, rather than the safe-sex stuff?


At the same time, I do not see the necessity to constantly talk about sex, watch sexual stuff on tv, read about sex, think about sex, and the list goes on, all day and all night!!!!

I completely agree with you.


And be honest. What in the world do you think of a 10 year old girl who dresses like a prostitute? Does it bother you? What do you think of a 10 year old girl who gets caught performing sex acts on another kid? Do you not feel anything for that 10 year old girl? Or is that completely normal?

You paint a disturbing image, but I don't see what you're getting at. If a ten year old girl does that sort of stuff, it's got to be largely down to poor parenting.

Do you think that because I'm a 'liberal' of some description, that I like seeing sex everywhere I look? Is that the issue here? Because I don't! I think it's vulgar and often offensive, and it gets right on my nerves.

Paul

[The Laughing Man]

Today @ 07:51 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=68473#post68473)
lordsnooty:

Lack of adequate education is the problem.

Come on, Snoot. I know you aren't this stupid. Kids have been taught far, far more in the past decade or two than ever before. Lack of adequate sex education isn't the problem because there is no such thing - at least as far as the base information is concerned.


You assume this is my view, presumably. You are wrong.

First of all, I didn't assume anything about you with that statement. That is the general attitude of liberal-minded people. Typically, it's hidden under the guise of "let them experiment."

Second, you have assumed what my view is and purported it to be fact, that I find your statement to be utterly hypocritical.


You have admitted that you wish children to be kept ignorant.

Did I? Where? Please quote me exactly.


You want a free reign to preach your addled morality

The use of the term "addled" is yet another example of your bigotry.


without schools contradicting you.

You got that darn right! They're my children. I have every right to determine what they learn in school and for what reason. The schools are not my kids' parents - my wife and I are. The schools are not supporting my kids - we are. The schools are not paying for my kids' education - we are.


Not impressionable enough to do something completely contrary to their nature, I suspect.

You suspect wrong. Kids do things completely contrary to their nature all the time because they are impressionable. I did. My siblings did. My friends did. My wife did. And I have no doubt that my children will.


Because that's what homosexual acts are, to straight people.

But kids are too young to understand all this. It's quite obvious the homosexual activists in the articles cited in this thread know this and are using it to their advantage.


Okay, show me the evidence that children that young are being given instructions on buggery. Or any other overtly sexual information, come to that.

Take your pick: Google search (http://www.google.com/search?as_q=kindergarteners+homosexuality&num=30&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&newwindow=1&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=off). And before you try to take issue with it, yes, I saw the link to Fred Phelps website. I have never agreed with his extremist, un-Christian beliefs and behavior.


Really? You might want to tell that to your partner in this thread, because I was paraphrasing her!

How about quoting her exactly instead of "paraphrasing" her using your personal bias?


Huh? Surely that's what sex education lessons should be all about?

Did I say that? No. Again, I will use the gun analogy. Knowledge of how to use a gun is dangerous without the wisdom to know when and when not to use it. (If you watch the Simpson, perhaps you'll remember the episode where Homer got a gun and misused it.) It takes a lot more than just head-knowledge to get by in this world.

[Woman]

La Rubia,

You have three kids? (Yipes girl, you got your work cut out for you)

You are just the person I'd like to ask:

Do you supervise all their TV viewing, making sure that cable networks are blocked from pre-school age youngsters?

Do you monitor the music they listen to for lyrics?

Do you answer their questions openly and honestly? (age appropriately, yes, but without resorting to mis-information about storks, going blind, etc.)

Do they know the words vagina and penis aren't dirty?

Do you spend as much time reading to them, talking to them, playing with them as you can?

Do you and their father have a loving, respectful relationship?

If yes, then you really have nothing to fear from the public school system. (in that regard) I honestly have never been in or heard about a class that glorifies promiscuous behavior. Have you, really?

They will take their cues from you. If you are proud of your womanhood but not seductive in dress or actions, if your husband treats the women in your family and social circle with repect and refrains from making inappropriately sexual remarks - then your kids already are ahead of the game. They will grow up to respect themselves and make choices which are healthy for them and will make you proud.

Also, you have nothing to fear from the gay world. Despite fears to the contrary, they don't "recruit" and they can't make someone gay. I'd be much more worried about the casual acceptance of adultary which runs rampant in our society. Christians are no more exempt from "cheating" than atheists are, so I guess the Bible alone doesn't provide protection. I know your belief system includes teaching that sex outside of marriage is a sin. That's fine, but kids need practical reasons too. Only education, personal responsibility and a strong home life will give kids what they need to resist the trend toward instant gratification which pop culture thrives on.

[Rubia Warren]

Wow! So many things I wanna quote.... but I'm too much of a moron to be able to make it look pretty, so I'll copy and paste what woman asked me first:


(post#41 )

La Rubia,

You have three kids? (Yipes girl, you got your work cut out for you)

You are just the person I'd like to ask:

Do you supervise all their TV viewing, making sure that cable networks are blocked from pre-school age youngsters?

Yes, I do, very closely. The problem I have is my husband watching the spanish channel (he is not a christian, although he does believe in God, and has some differences in opinion and judgement- not necessarily because he isn't a christian, but because of how he grew up. Because of this, I gotta improvise a little).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you monitor the music they listen to for lyrics?

Yes, although my oldest one is only 6... but I will continue to do so. Again... I have a husband who listens to a lot of things that are not appropriate for her to hear, so I have to remind him often.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you answer their questions openly and honestly? (age appropriately, yes, but without resorting to mis-information about storks, going blind, etc.)
Yeah.. but remember, my oldest is 6, so I haven't really taken it too far. I've never used storks, the easter bunny, Santa (I'm such a killjoy, huh?? LOL).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do they know the words vagina and penis aren't dirty?'They don't know those words yet. I have given them a basic overview of their anatomy, not too many details, but enough to satisfactorily answer their questions as we go along. We have been watching TLC a lot, the shows about women giving birth, and they like it a lot, and it's good for them because it doesn't show all the gory details of the birth. They haven't put 2 and 2 together yet and realized where the baby comes out of, but I expect that question to be raised pretty soon, and I don't have a problem telling them. "Vagina" and penis, I know I should be using those words, but I'll admit, I haven't yet, just because they sound so dorky to me, I feel like a nerd when I say them! LOL But I will be pretty soon.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Do you spend as much time reading to them, talking to them, playing with them as you can?
Honestly, compared to a lot of folks, I do, but I can always examine myself and find areas where I am slacking, but I try. I do pretty good, but not as much as I'd like to (I think all mothers say that).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you and their father have a loving, respectful relationship?
Yes, we have a real good relationship, but with much yelling. It's a cultural thing- my man yells when he talks- not out of anger, just he's got a big mouth. My kids don't speak much spanish yet, and lots of times, people who don't understand us think we are arguing. I suppose that will pass, though, when they begin to understand more.

If yes, then you really have nothing to fear from the public school system. (in that regard) I honestly have never been in or heard about a class that glorifies promiscuous behavior. Have you, really?
I have heard of some that do in some ways, but don't have experience with that myself.

They will take their cues from you. If you are proud of your womanhood but not seductive in dress or actions, if your husband treats the women in your family and social circle with repect and refrains from making inappropriately sexual remarks - then your kids already are ahead of the game. They will grow up to respect themselves and make choices which are healthy for them and will make you proud.

I hope you are right. My 6 year old is very mature for her age, and looks up a lot to older girls who dress like hootchies, and who don't have very good parents.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, you have nothing to fear from the gay world. Despite fears to the contrary, they don't "recruit" and they can't make someone gay.
Here is where we see things a little differently. I don't fear the gay world, but my cousin and best friend growing up was is gay, and we used to hang out in a gay bar when I was 15 (hey.. it was the only place that would let me in under 21, what do you want? Besides, everybody knows the gay bars have the best dance music! *wink* Just kidding). Many of my friends were gay, and many of them including my cousin used to "recruit" kids from my high school. Yes, they would seduce guys who seemed insecure about themselves and their sexuality, and it was really bad. Even if they were straight and did it to girls, it would be equally as bad. But there comes a time in many kids' lives where they are changing, confused, hormones going haywire, and many of them are confused for a little while, and questioning a lot of things, and here comes these guys along and gets him to mess around with them. So, yeah, sometimes they do play on a kid's insecurities, confusion, and awkward stage, and recruit. Many don't but many do. And straight people who do that are just as bad.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd be much more worried about the casual acceptance of adultary which runs rampant in our society.
I am equally concerned with that. I am disgusted with how society has sex on the brain period.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Christians are no more exempt from "cheating" than atheists are, so I guess the Bible alone doesn't provide protection. I know your belief system includes teaching that sex outside of marriage is a sin. That's fine, but kids need practical reasons too.

I never want to use "sins" as a reason to give them for why they can't do something. Even now, when they are little, I refrain from telling them "Don't steal! It's a sin, and God will be mad, or God will send you to hell!!". When God in the bible advises us to stay away from certain things, it doesn't just say, "Don't do this, because it's a sin, and you'll go to hell, and that's that, because I am God and I say so". There is much wisdom in that book, and the one thing I like about it, is that when it says not to do something, or to stay away from certain people, He always gives a reason why (well, almost always), and explains/warns what will happen(what consequences there are for certain actions). I try to not put God in the middle of it when I am talking about something to my kids. I don't want them to be so terrified that if they so much as fart wrong, God will send a lightening bolt from the sky to zap them. I want them to love wisdom, and strive for it, so that they can be prepared to make good decisions on their own. I don't want them to impulsively act, I want them to learn how to weigh it out beforehand and weigh out the potential consequences of their actions. As for God, I want to show them how to fall in love with God, so that when they are older, they will willingly want to seek Him for guidance in their lives. I want my kids to fall deeply in love with God, by their own choice, and not by force, just because we go to church and have some upstanding christian image to uphold. People raising their kids up that way are part of the reason why kids reject christianity when they are old enough, and also why many people have a false idea of who God is and what He's really like. I wasn't raised in church or anything, but I went sometimes with neighbors and stuff, and people always told me, "Don't do that! It's a sin and you'll go to hell!!", and didn't give me any other kind of idea of what God's all about, so I was terrified of Him for many years, and thought christians were corny and dumb.

[Rubia Warren]

Lordsnooty,
I didn't say I didn't want sex taught in the schools at all. What I meant was, I don't believe that homosexuality OR christianity for that matter should be taught at a public school. No talking about it period. There's plenty of other more important things to learn and that's what they are there for. How about volcanoes? Volcanoes are nice.
:idea: I got an idea! How about if we actually teach kids how to READ! I mean, REALLY read! Like, how to sound out words, so that you can read independently! My daughter this year was learning a brilliant thing- I don't know who came up with this one, but the kids memorize words that the teacher teaches them, and also how to try to figure out what a sentence says by looking at the picture. That's how many kids are learning how to read nowadays. Which is part of the reason many of them have poor reading skills!
Condoms do not belong in a classroom, nor do they need to be handed out. They can teach kids about the basics of reproduction, I have no problem with that. But it's my responsibility to show them the rest. Just because parents have failed to do that, doesn't mean that the government should teach my kids all about how to not get pregnant, or how not to catch the clap, or how it's cool to be a transsexual, and you can have sex with anybody and anything that you want to, and you're good to go. I think even a complete moron knows how to not get knocked up by now- that kind of info is in your face everywhere. Parents not teaching their children is not the only problem we have... but parents just not giving a rip about their kids in general. Kids are shoved to the side all over this society, in homes, schools, and even in the justice system. We have no respect for kids. So, if you really want to get to the root of the problem, then focus on educating PARENTS on how to be a parent, rather than hiring teachers to try to raise other people's kids and show them the way to go.
I am sure you are grossed out by all the sex, Lordsnooty. I didn't mean to imply that you were some kind of sexaholic, or something. Sorry if I came across that way.

[Rubia Warren]

Today @ 07:42 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=68461#post68461)
Jimmy Higgins:

Money. Sex sells well. But sexual references in television, in movies, etc... really is not the same as in school, seeing that school is about education. In movies and tv, sex is being used as a tool to get attention.
Are we saying this 6th grader is a prostitute or just dressing like one? Isn't there a difference? Brittney Spears dresses like one, but reportedly is not one. As for a 10 year old engaging in sex, are you blaming the education of sex ed for it? If not, then perhaps this is a reality to deal with. Sex existed well before the 1960's, contrary to popular belief. And young people did get pregnant. This is not something that is new. AIDS is new, not sex.
When does puberty begin? If it starts about here, then I'd say tendencies in a girl that age is not unusual.

What is your suggestion then? Ignore sex education in school. Hope the parents are literate enough to know THE facts, not just what they think they know? I'd rather not have a bunch of people out there still thinking that AIDS is a "fag" thing because they were never taught better.
Jimmy, the problem we have is that sex is everywhere, and even young kids are getting into it. It's much different than when we were kids and played doctor, and were just curious.
Are you saying that if a 10 year old girl dresses like a whore, but she's not having sex, then it's okay? I am disturbed by girls that I see who dress that way, and I feel sorry for them, because they are eye candy for every sicko who crosses their path (I am not saying that when girls get raped or abused, it is because of how they were dressed). 10 year old girls should be 10 year old girls, and when I see one in my 'hood dressin' like a hootchie, I get worried for her. I dressed normally at that age, and I still had creepy old guys and weirdos wantin' to get with me. I feel for the young girls today.
Does it matter whether or not she's into puberty? Sure, kids are curious, but I am talking a sexually active 10 year old girl. So, if she's in puberty, it's okay? Don't you think that girls that young are not capable of handling the emotional part of sex? Females are a bit different than men.Girls that young are not capable of having a mature sexual relationship. And many today are sleeping around. This is not due to lack of education. This is due to the fact that sex is pushed everywhere, kids know too many details too soon, their parents don't give a rip about them, and they sleep around because they want some attention from guys, confusing it for love. Not every single case, but this is how it commonly is. I am surprised that you could not give me a direct answer to my question.
The family is breaking down (for some, it done and broke down many years ago), kids are lost, government schools are failing, we still have an epidemic of kids getting STD's and pregnancy, and the age of when kids are starting to have sex and even being promiscuous is getting younger and younger. We have a big prob, and it ain't due to christians trying to control everybody with their rules, and not educating young people. People's lives are falling apart all over the place, and it's not because they are ignorant.
Kids are being taught how to put on a condom in school... in my brother's class, each kid has to put one on a banana.... condoms are also being passed out freely to them...tell me, Jimmy... why are they not using them?
Every moron knows that AIDS is not just a homosexual's disease.....tell me, Jimmy....why do kids choose to joke about it like it is, anyway? And even adults, for that matter?

[spl_cadet]

Perhaps it's just me, but shouldn't people feel just a bit concerned that 10 year olds are screwing each other? I mean come on, we're talking about fourth-graders here.

[Rubia Warren]

Uhhh... yeah. Just a bit. I figured it was an area where we could find common ground, but, I am not sure about that anymore.

[Rubia Warren]

BTW...
Jinx and lordsnooty,
You both need to change your avatars to self-pics. I expect it to be done no later by the end of the day.:whip:

:dufus:

[Woman]

La Rubia,

Your kids are VERY lucky!!!!

A strict Mom and one who is still "cool"!!

p.s. I agree about the words "penis" and "vagina." I even felt dorky typing them. I say we need some new "anatomically correct" words!

[Rubia Warren]

Thanks, woman! :huh: I was thinking you had kids, too... was' up wit' dat?
Yep, and unfortunately, those words don't sound any cooler in spanish either. They must be 2 words that are universally uncool no matter what language you say them in. Must be like an unspoken rule or something.:dufus:

[lordsnooty]

Today @ 04:13 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=68704#post68704)
La Rubia:
:idea: I got an idea! How about if we actually teach kids how to READ! I mean, REALLY read! Like, how to sound out words, so that you can read independently! My daughter this year was learning a brilliant thing- I don't know who came up with this one, but the kids memorize words that the teacher teaches them, and also how to try to figure out what a sentence says by looking at the picture. That's how many kids are learning how to read nowadays. Which is part of the reason many of them have poor reading skills!

Young kids, certainly.


But it's my responsibility to show them the rest. Just because parents have failed to do that, doesn't mean that the government should teach my kids all about how to not get pregnant, or how not to catch the clap, or how it's cool to be a transsexual, and you can have sex with anybody and anything that you want to, and you're good to go.

But the problem is, yours is a minority view. Most people would find your views offensive and would find the idea of you passing them onto your children equally offensive.

Do you think that the same should be true of racism? Kids are taught that racism is bad, but should that be stopped? Is it OK for parents to tell their kids that blacks are subhuman? No, because it's damaging to society.

Just like when conservatives tell their kids (who might turn out to be gay!) that homosexuality is wrong and evil, and that they should never have sex with anyone that they love, because it's dirty unless they're married... god, we'll end up with a generation of neo-Victorians.


I think even a complete moron knows how to not get knocked up by now- that kind of info is in your face everywhere.

Obviously they do not. Huge numbers of young girls still believe that you can't get pregnant if it's your first time!

Also, the lack of availability of protection (because you think that handing out condoms is bad) won't help matters.


We have no respect for kids. So, if you really want to get to the root of the problem, then focus on educating PARENTS on how to be a parent, rather than hiring teachers to try to raise other people's kids and show them the way to go.

I agree with this to a certain extent. Parents need to learn how to look after their kids. But on the other hand, I don't agree with parents passing on their rather unpleasant opinions onto kids, either. It works both ways.

Paul

[Rubia Warren]

I don't like how many parents pass on their garbage to their kids, either, lordsnooty... but I don't want the government raising people's kids, either, and I don't want my parental control being neutered in the process.
You have your idea of the ideal world, and I have mine, and the way it looks..... neither one's gonna happen anytime soon.
So, where's your pic, anyway?
And Jimmy? Is that you in your avatar? Well, it SHOULD be! What are you waiting for?

[Ryokan]

See, the problem is that there are a bunch of overlapping rights here. The right of the parents to raise there kids the way they want, the right of the kids to be provided with more than just there parents side of the story, the right of a kid to be treated with respect in his learning enviroment, the freedom of religion, and freedom to "privacy". Its a situation that begs for a social contract.

I think the solution is this. Kids ought to be taught sex ed. at school. They should be taught about the various means to protect themselves if they do have sex, (ignorance is NEVER an advantage), but have it emphasized to them that the ONLY sure way to aviod contracting STDs or getting pregnant is to abstain. The morality of sexuality ought to be left to the parents. Kids also should be taught about sex and religion in a historical context, but only when they are old enough. Also, kids should be tgiven tolerance education, where they learn that all people, christian, gay, black, white, etc. regardless of whether or not you agree with them, and no effort should be made to force the kids too agree, they are all people, with alot in common, and they should be treated with respect, even if you don't accept there beliefs or behavior. I think that is a fair solution, don't you?:smile:

[spl_cadet]

How about we have the schools educate people in English, math, science, history, physical education, and various electives (including foriegn languages), and let the parent's do the rest? If schools want to do more, they can give the parent's a consent form after showing them what would be taught.

Now then, Ryokan, the problem with your tolerance education thing is that thanks to the liberal nature of our schools, it's going to turn into a politcally correct tolerance thing and that's going to be bad for me at least because we Catholics are like the devil to the liberals.

[The Laughing Man]

Yesterday @ 10:50 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=68793#post68793)
spl_cadet:

Perhaps it's just me, but shouldn't people feel just a bit concerned that 10 year olds are screwing each other? I mean come on, we're talking about fourth-graders here.

*ahem* Well, I don't know if I'd have put it so indelicately, but you are absolutely right. I'll have to do some digging, but I know I've read a story about children younger than that performing sexual acts on each other. I'm thinking it was kindergarteners. Disgusting! Can you believe that some kids are even doing this stuff out in the open during school?

[Jimmy Higgins]

Today @ 11:45 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=69480#post69480)
Jinx72:
*ahem* Well, I don't know if I'd have put it so indelicately, but you are absolutely right. I'll have to do some digging, but I know I've read a story about children younger than that performing sexual acts on each other. I'm thinking it was kindergarteners. Disgusting! Can you believe that some kids are even doing this stuff out in the open during school? Yeah, I know. I drove by an elementary school yesterday when they were having recess. It was just one huge orgy. Teachers were handing out condoms to all the kids and models of penises and vaginas so that the kids could touch and feel them and desire to want to touch and feel more. And gay pride was there, routing on students who were trying "alternative" methods. :ahem:

The epidemic that isn't.

[The Laughing Man]

The epidemic that isn't.

Yeah, kind of like when AIDS broke out. Started with a trickle and quickly became a rushing torrent.

[Rubia Warren]

:hrm: Are you in denial?

[lordsnooty]

Today @ 05:23 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=69532#post69532)
Jinx72:
Yeah, kind of like when AIDS broke out. Started with a trickle and quickly became a rushing torrent.

You really want to see someone about that paranoia!

Paul

[Rubia Warren]

:hrm: Are you..... oh, nevermind.

[Rubia Warren]

Today @ 11:23 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=69532#post69532)
Jinx72:



Yeah, kind of like when AIDS broke out. Started with a trickle and quickly became a rushing torrent.
Bad Jinx!!

:bonk: Only liberals can bring up AIDS when they want more sex education... didn't you know that?

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yesterday @ 11:41 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=68768#post68768)
La Rubia:
Jimmy, the problem we have is that sex is everywhere, and even young kids are getting into it.Come on. General thoughts are really nothing without statistics.

It's much different than when we were kids and played doctor, and were just curious. Just curious? Do you think that the motives of children today are to become sex fiends and get "it" whenever they can?

Are you saying that if a 10 year old girl dresses like a whore, but she's not having sex, then it's okay?I thought you were worried about sex, not dress code? If she isn't having sex, then her having sex is not an issue.

I am disturbed by girls that I see who dress that way, and I feel sorry for them, because they are eye candy for every sicko who crosses their path (I am not saying that when girls get raped or abused, it is because of how they were dressed). Well, that can be part of it. But remember some sicko's rape the elderly. It ain't because of what they are wearing. We call them sicko's for a reason.

10 year old girls should be 10 year old girls,Is that you at 10 years old, the amish at 10 years old, or most 10 year olds at 10 years old?

Does it matter whether or not she's into puberty?Sure the heck does. Puberty is the entrance way into sexuality. Affinity towards sexual feelings increases infinitly at that stage. Before puberty its, "Ew, gross!" After it becomes, "Oh, I get it."

Sure, kids are curious, but I am talking a sexually active 10 year old girl.Come on, some stats please. Is it one 10 year old girl? Is it 1% of 10 year old girls?

So, if she's in puberty, it's okay? Don't you think that girls that young are not capable of handling the emotional part of sex?I don't think some girls and boys who are 18 are capable of handling the emotional part of sex. Some people actually never do. Remember, that whole emotional thing about sex isn't part of the hormones. They act independantly.

Females are a bit different than men.Girls that young are not capable of having a mature sexual relationship.I'm sorry. Did you just say that 10 year old boys are capable of having "mature sexual relationship(s)" in that above statement?

And many today are sleeping around.Stats from 2000 and perhaps much much earlier to show this is a unique problem?

This is not due to lack of education. This is due to the fact that sex is pushed everywhere, kids know too many details too soon,Oh, I'd love to hear from you what details we should exclude. Is their an approved timetable?

their parents don't give a rip about them, and they sleep around because they want some attention from guys, confusing it for love.I think we've jumped into a whole 'nother category here. Once again, what % are we talking here? Do the majority of students in high school "sleep around"?

Not every single case, but this is how it commonly is."Commonly" is a dangerous word, it means usually. I doubt this is the usual situation.

The family is breaking down (for some, it done and broke down many years ago), kids are lost, government schools are failing, we still have an epidemic of kids getting STD's and pregnancy, and the age of when kids are starting to have sex and even being promiscuous is getting younger and younger.Schools are failing? Well, I didn't vote for Bush, so don't blame me. I'm also too progressive to actually expect any governmental decisions to work. But what is this thing about STD's and pregnancy? I'm pretty sure that those rates are down overall. Perhaps in some areas they are higher, but overall, they are decreasing. And as for younger and younger kids getting into sex, there is no evidence for this at all. Its just that communication is so much greater today than 100 years ago, that we know if some 10 year old in Mississippi got pregnant in a flash, while 100 years ago, it never made it past the townline.

We have a big prob,Actually being an engineer, its my job to see problems, to define them, and to solve them. Usually numbers are used. You've supplied nothing but mere generalities and extrapolating them onto the majority population.

People's lives are falling apart all over the place, and it's not because they are ignorant.Huh? "all over the place"? Severe SASD (Short-Attention-Span-Disorder) there. Do you think that we ever had it all together in the first place? If so, when?

Kids are being taught how to put on a condom in school...How is this a bad thing. Back when I was in high school, so stupid idiot got a girl pregnant because they used syran wrap. What's wrong about teaching people how to use something that they WILL use in the future?

Jimmy... why are they not using them?Water balloons?
More appropriately, whats the flow rate for the condoms? Just how many of them are flying out of the schools? And think back. When you were in high school, how many people do you think were sexually active?

Every moron knows that AIDS is not just a homosexual's diseaseYou've got to be kidding me! That's just being naive. If that was so, would AIDS still be spreading?

[Jimmy Higgins]

Today @ 12:23 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=69532#post69532)
Jinx72:
Yeah, kind of like when AIDS broke out. Started with a trickle and quickly became a rushing torrent. Ahh... If I'm not mistaken, wasn't it the Reagan Administration's hesitence to act upon that outbreak that really funked it all up, merely because it was deemed a "gay issue" back then?

Furthermore, while AIDS is a disease, sex isn't. And further-furthermore, it has not even been closed to become established that sex among certain percentages of under 18's has really increased at any time.

[spl_cadet]

As I recall, AIDS emerged during the liberal Carter years.



And further-furthermore, it has not even been closed to become established that sex among certain percentages of under 18's has really increased at any time.

The percentage of teenagers who have had sexual intercourse has declined for the first time after increasing steadily for more than two decades, HHS Secretary Donna E. Shalala announced today.
http://www.hhs.gov/news/press/1997pres/970501.html

[Pilgrim]

Oh yeah, blame AIDS on Jimmy Carter...yeah that's the ticket, he must have bread peanuts that were cultivated to carry HIV...yeah, AIDS was a conspiracy of Jimmy Carter and the Democrats...yeah, that's the ticket.

[Pilgrim]

But by that logic it must have been Reagan who really spread the disease since it was in the 80's that it really boomed.

[Ryokan]

I was a Catholic Spl. Cadet, and the only person who thought I was the devil were some Southern Baptists, who are hardly liberal. And I think we should try teach kids about everything they need to live, and learn in school. We don't teach kids stuff for the H*** of it, you know. Being tolerant: a. is a important life lesson when living in a diverse society, and b. is necessary for children to learn. I know from personal experience a lack of tolerance by fellow students of things as simple as your height, or athletic ability, things which the victim knows won't last forever, can have a severe negative effect on ones performance in school, and also lead to psychological and social problems for the individual. The child has a right to a learning enviroment deviod of that, so the state has an obligation to provide the diversity education that may help prevent it. Its not part of some liberal reeducation scheme, its about kids.

[Butters]

Today @ 05:49 PM post located here
Butters:

You guys just suck this crap up don't you? ”



"No more than the crap you suck up."

Another fact filled post from jinx.

Which high school? ”



"Uh, as was stated at the beginning of the paragraph, a high school in Newton, Massachusetts. There's only two (I checked), but what does it matter?"

It matters, because if there was anything to the story, names, places, and dates would have been included. You didn't check far enough to find out which school had been "queered" did you? Or to find out exactly what went on.


What are the names of these people being enterviewed? ”



"What? You want the author to divulge the names of minors without the consent of their parents?"

If he wants to quote them, I expect him to get that permission, and better yet, interview the parent.


Let me ask you this, WWJD? ”



"He would tell homosexuals that their "lifestyle" was sinful and that he couldn't support it, but that he loved them anyway."

I doubt it, Jesus was smart enough to realize that being Gay is not a "lifestyle" or a choice.

What activist? ”



"All of them, I think." (Hey, name that movie!)"


You think? Well, you'll have to provide evidence of you thinking.



Who? Where? When? ”



"What? You want the author to document each and every instance of some homosexual activist using the term "queering?"

Well, one would be nice.

What ever happened to journalism 101? ”



"Oh, yay. Journalistic elitism."

Well, if backing your story with verifiable sources is elitism, then yes, I guess so. I always forget that it's permissible to make any unfounded accusation you want, as long as it's for the Lord.

Seems to me is all their trying to to is stand up for themselves. ”



"Yeah, that's what the people who support racist websites say, too. "Hey, the Aryan Nation is just trying to stand up for themselves."

Yea, the problem with freedom is that you have to give people you disagree with the freedom to talk, I mean, look at this site, some things said here make me ill, but, I wouldn't want to take away anyones right to say them.


I've got to quit reading these boaeds, it's scaring me that people like you still exist. ”



"Yeah, it's amazing that loving Christians "still exist." Heaven forbid!"

Well, after reading this board I always have to remind myself that you people represent a small minority of Christians, and that the vast magority are sane, decent, and actually loving people.

[Butters]

But, if we let that happen, who knows who'll be next, No racial slurs please and God knows what other scum ”



Alright, that's enough. First Snoot and now you. If this keeps up, I'll personally be putting people on ignore, but will also be making formal complaints to Dee Dee for this kind of irrational behavior, which really is against board rules. Look here: "Flaming".

"If a strong and potentially inflammatory characterization is used, it must be backed up as to the truth of the matter. Even with such substantiation, such characterizations shall not be used to such a degree that they are unnecessarily disruptive and cease to contribute to or assist in meaningful dialog."


As much as I don't mind being put on Jinx' ignore list,
I do retract this statement, and apologize to everyone here. I understand that most people here are not bigoted hate filled fanatics, mearly misguided. I wonder how much any of you know about the Fifties, most of you are probably to young to remember them. If you think we have more STD's, Teen pregnency, abortion now than then, you are mistaken, it's just back then it was swept under the rug, and allowed to continue, and fester. At least today we can get it out in the open and TRY to deal with it.

[Woman]

I have come to the conclusion that the rise of drug use and its attendent problems in the US is directly connected to the educational system and its "liberal" intrusion.

In the 50's, so-called "drug education" was introduced into the schools. Films glorifying marijuana smoking were shown. One in particular, Reefer Madness, made kids want to rush out and try it.

In the 60's schools began giving drug information out to younger and younger students. There were actually classes which went into detail about the variety of drugs available on the market. Innocent children were told about LSD and other terrible hallucinogenics, which of course, made them try it as soon as possible. One class in rural upstate NY even passed around pictures of various pills and drug paraphernalia.

It wasn't bad enough that the educational system had stripped away parents' rights. Now they were advocating drug use by discussing it all the time. Only rarely would a teacher would actually tell children that the only proper use of drugs was within the confines of a loving, Dr.-patient relationship, preferably legalized with a RX. And the result is clear. More and more kids are experimenting at a younger and younger age!

By the end of the century, things were out of control. Drugs were not only a common subject in the classroom, but experimentation was going on right on campus. Middle school children, hardly old enough to wield a hypodermic, were shooting up, popping and smoking dope in the school bathrooms. Disgusting and perverted and you can lay it ALL on the atheist liberal agenda!

I say take drug education out of the schools and put it back on the street where it belongs. There is just no reason for our kids to know about such horrible things.

*tongue crazy-glued to cheek*

[Ryokan]

good post woman

[Butters]

Exactly woman! If the government hadn't told kids about drugs, they never would have known about them.

Thank God the multi-billion dollar "war on drugs" we've waged for twenty years or so stamped out drug use, and no more children have access to drugs.

[Ryokan]

drug use is down since we started we started the war, and considerably fewer kids start. Its no V.J. day, but it's something.

[SLPx]

04-15-2003 @ 06:52 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=67833#post67833)
lordsnooty:
...

There we are again - 'homosexual indoctrination'. You must be joking about not being a bigot.


That is a strange thing that I have noticed in many conservative Christians - this odd belief that not openly 'condemning' is a defacto support of it - that allowing, in this case, I guess, homosexuals let folks know that they are not baby-eating freaks is tantamount to making the children of right-wing Christians engage in homosexual sex.

Cal Thomas, bastion of intellect and reason that he is, wrote a few years ago a piece about how having abortion as an option is 'forcing it down the throats of those that disagree.' As if anti-abortion conservative Christian women are forced to have abortions or something. I just don't get it.

[Ryokan]

Although I strongly disagree with your abortion analogy, I understand what your saying. Forcing Christians not to harass, or attempt to prosthelytize to, homosexuals in a school setting would be, in my mind, perfectly fair. And vice versa, of course, although as a catholic school kid I saw very little of that.