View Full Version : All things in Romans 8:32
April 16th 2003, 02:56 PM
In this thread I would like to discuss Paul's "all things" τα παντα in Romans 8:32. I will start on the basis that the answer is to be found in the context. Here are the options that have been given for what context we can assume:
Restricted to verses 29ff.
Back to verse 1.
As this section (vv32-9) closes Paulís argument begun back in 5:1 then all of this is summed up by τα παντα
Okay as part of this we see the repeated them of sharing in Christís sufferings thus how should we view suffering? Is it to be viewed as graciously given too χαριζωμαι? As we see that part of sharing in glory is sharing in Christís sufferings. These are just some initial thought but I would appreciate further thoughts on what Paul means by all things τα παντα here.
Pereynol of Sheer Dread
April 16th 2003, 10:36 PM
Great topic! How do you view the idea that the ktisis was subjected to vanity by God himself, in the hopes that it would be freed from decay and given " the freedom of the glory of the children of God?" (vs 19-22) Do you think Romans 8 is somehow cosmic in scope? I suspect that it is.
April 16th 2003, 10:49 PM
I think it is cosmic in scope all though I can not read greek yet. Just from the structure in english which I know is not as clear as the Greek shows that it is universal. I hope the Open Theist Doogieduff reads this since he tried to say that it does not mean that God works things out only the things in the Church.
By His Grace For His Glory
Great Post GP :bow:
April 16th 2003, 11:33 PM
I would think that a cosmic view is in order. As I see this is Paul completing the argument begun in chapter 5, I find it significant that of the 61 uses of πας in the book of Romans only 10 occur in this section (5:1-8:39); Rom. 5:12 (2x), 18 (2x); 7:8; 8:22, 28, 32 (2x), 37. Here they are:
5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
7:8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the law, sin lies dead.
8:22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
Now I will set Rom 7:8 aside as IMO it actually is a different use of πας and is not germane to the topic at hand.
I find it significant that Romans 5:18 uses κατακριμα (condemnation) as the result of one sin to all men. For how does Paul begin Chapter 8 But with the removal of condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus thus I think we have kataphora going on pointing back to the discussion of chapter 5 as a reminder of what it means to be in Christ, and just as prior to our union with Christ we were under condemnation and thus subjected to futility, thus the creation's subjection fits perfectly within this theme.
Pereynol of Sheer Dread
April 17th 2003, 12:54 AM
Do you see Romans 5 within the confines of the theory of Christ's federal headship predominately, or do you allow for a more, for want of a better word, "Platonic" view in which we participate in Christ as in an archetype? There's a lot of participatory language in Romans 8, IMHO. Also, there's a lot of "sympathetic" language there too, as well as thematic echos, the growning of the Spirit in tension with that of creation and that of the believer.
I also find it illuminating to compare the adoption theme in Galatians 4 with the comparable idea in Romans 8 where the Spirit cries abba ho pathr.
April 17th 2003, 01:04 AM
I tend to lean more towards federal headship. I think the phrase εν Χριστω(in Christ) is key to understanding this passage, and needs some more study.
I'll have ot look at Galatians 4, thanks (I'm preaching on 8:21-9 a week from Sunday hence my current interest, but these chapters have long been some of my favorite in all of Scripture.
April 17th 2003, 01:30 AM
I'll try to get to this when I can. I actually had a debate on this at the other place, but I think it is gone now (which bites, it was some of my best work in that thread).
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