Can God be tempted to do evil acts?

[stevencarrwork]

Hardly seems worth repeating the thread subject in the post, but I will do so anyway.

Can God be tempted to do evil acts?

[garthoverman]

Today @ 10:09 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=69991#post69991)
stevencarrwork:
Can God be tempted to do evil acts?
I don't think temptation is necessary. :wink:

Yours,
Garth

[djnoz]

JOB 1
6 When the day came for the heavenly beings to appear before the Lord, Satan was there among them. The Lord asked him, "What have you been doing?"

Satan answered, "I have been walking here and there, roaming around the earth." "Did you notice my servant Job?" the Lord asked. "There is no one on earth as faithful and good as he is. He worships me and is careful not to do anything evil." Satan replied, "Would Job worship you if he got nothing out of it? You have always protected him and his family and everything he owns. You bless everything he does, and you have given him enough cattle to fill the whole country. But now suppose you take away everything he has—he will curse you to your face!" "All right," the Lord said to Satan, "everything he has is in your power, but you must not hurt Job himself." So Satan left.

From this passage we can see that Satan is answerable to God. The thing I don't understand is that God authorises Satan to do an evil act. To this day I don't understand how that can be right - but God's mind is way above ours, so I accept it as the right thing. It's obvious that the end result benefits Job.

Jesus was tempted -


"Then the Spirit led Jesus into the desert to be tempted by the Devil. "

... but Jesus in this instance was in human form, he was in our world. I really doubt that Satan's tempting influence can pierce the planes of existance upon which heaven resides - as in this realm Satan is answerable to God. On earth, satan has free reign, and is only really answerable to God via the prayer of believers... a truth you can learn from by experience :smile:

[ChristianCreed]

Well . . . . no, God cannot be tempted.

I could go into philosophy about Truth and omniscience and an explanation of how God, as an omniscient being, knows what Good is and would never violate it.

I guess the easy answer is that, if God wants it, it's by definition not evil.

However . . . . I will simply say, you cannot support the temptation of God with scripture.

Jesus was "tempted" by the devil, but if you read how the events actually play out, we have the Devil begging Jesus to bow down and kneel to him. We have Jesus simply refuting him with scripture.

There's never the inclination that Jesus was actually torn, actually considered, and actually let himself be "tempted" by Satan's "tempting" requests.

We do, however, have indication that our requests can help change God's mind, or rather, that God will say elicit our requests before announcing his actions.

God of course knew that Job's faith would benefit from the events, and the same happens when God wants to destroy the Israelites and instead lets Moses convince him otherwise.

To "change his mind" in whatever sense God's forknowledge is actually changed is presented, but not an "evil" act.

That is, of course, the very purpose of prayer.

[John Powell]

POWELL:
Although many Mormons may have disagreed with me, as a believing Mormon I believed that God could be tempted. Jesus was tempted. Jesus could have failed His mission. God could fail. The fact that someone in such a high station as Lucifer failed is evidence of that possibility. If God were to make too many mistakes or violate too many "spiritual" laws then He would lose His position as "God" or supreme being over our planet, although He would retain the glorious form that makes Him a god. Since this would be so unlikely, I would have figured that I might as well assume it never would happen, except as a philosophical thing to consider.

When asking myself these kinds of questions, I generally tried to imagine God as a good man, but much better, not as some Greek ideal form.

God could lie. Any rational being who knows how to tell the truth must know how to lie. Any being that has free will and knows how to tell the truth can, therefore lie. Whether God chooses to lie is a separate question.

The Old Testament describes a God who apparently was not that different from other ancient concepts of God. The ideal being of the Greeks was a different kind of God.

I believed that God was very powerful, very knowledgeable, very good, not the absolute ideal forms of these.

John Powell
A former believer in Mormonism.
Now an athe-ist or strong atheist.

[djdavo]

04-17-2003 @ 06:07 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=70958#post70958)
John Powell:

POWELL:
I believed that God could be tempted. Jesus was tempted. Jesus could have failed His mission.

God could lie. Any rational being who knows how to tell the truth must know how to lie. Any being that has free will and knows how to tell the truth can, therefore lie. Whether God chooses to lie is a separate question.
.



Jesus as a man in a body was tempted...but was Jesus as fully God tempted? this opens a whole new can of worms
:wink:

the problem trying to understand God lying is....well....we're tyring to understand God lying. (the whole "can god make a rock so big" deal)
since God SPOKE and things came into being, then if he said, for instance, "The internet does not exist", wouldn't that 'lie' become the truth simply by Him speaking it?

[Warcraft3]

John Powell:
Although many Mormons may have disagreed with me, as a believing Mormon I believed that God could be tempted. Jesus was tempted. Jesus could have failed His mission. God could fail. The fact that someone in such a high station as Lucifer failed is evidence of that possibility.

I have to agree with John Powell on this one.


Russ

[Ethos]

What would he be tempted to do anyway?

[John Powell]

djdavo:
Jesus as a man in a body was tempted...but was Jesus as fully God tempted? this opens a whole new can of worms
:wink:


POWELL:
For some theists yes, but it would have been acceptable to my former Mormon beliefs. My Mormon evidence for the justification of this position would have been

1) Satan, someone very high in the hierarchy, fell so surely God COULD fall.

2) We can become Gods ourselves one day and I could imagine myself lying.

djdavo:
the problem trying to understand God lying is....well....we're tyring to understand God lying. (the whole "can god make a rock so big" deal)


POWELL:
My most recent understanding is that an omnipotent being could create a rock so large He couldn't lift it, but at that moment He would cease to be omnipotent. In other words, an omnipotent being can't create a rock so large He can't lift it and remain omnipotent.

djdavo:
since God SPOKE and things came into being, then if he said, for instance, "The internet does not exist", wouldn't that 'lie' become the truth simply by Him speaking it?


POWELL:
As a believing Mormon I would have thought there was a difference between God saying a thing and God ordering a thing.

If God were to command the universe "The Internet does not exist anymore" then the intelligences which were then existing in the electrons and atoms in computers that control the programs which make the Internet would then obey the command of their God and cause that the Internet cease to exist. I would not have known how the intelligences would know what God wanted unless his short verbal command was accompanied by instructions of some form to the intelligences on how to execute His order, but I would assume such was how it happened. In other words, my idea was that when God orders then the universe listens and obeys. Ironically, it's humans, the most God-like entities in the physical universe, who often listen but don't obey their God.

If God were to merely make a false statement like "The Internet has never existed" with intent to deceive then that lie would not cause the past to change.

John Powell

[John Powell]

Triphicus:

What would he be tempted to do anyway?


POWELL:
To allow our spirits into the bodies of human-like animals before those bodies were sufficiently evolved. To destroy the Earth with water a second time. To kill everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah, even Lot's family. To leave Jacob without giving him a blessing. To kill virtually all of the people under Moses. To reduce the suffering of Jesus. To give too much power to His prophets before they are really worthy. To punish someone more or bless them less than they deserve. Those kinds of things.

However, like a person who has lived a life of habit (say not drinking alcohol) is not usually seriously tempted to do something completely foreign to their way of life (such as getting drunk), so too God is not seriously tempted to do something really bad.

As a believing Mormon I tried to imagine God as a good man, but a lot better, not as a Greek perfect thing.

John Powell

[Homie]

POWELL
The Old Testament describes a God who apparently was not that different from other ancient concepts of God. The ideal being of the Greeks was a different kind of God.

HOMIE
Incorrect. He was a quite different God. Most people at that time believed in many Gods, including the Greeks. The Hebrew God is also omni-ALotOfThings, while other "Gods" at that time were limited in power.

POWELL
Although many Mormons may have disagreed with me, as a believing Mormon I believed that God could be tempted. Jesus was tempted. Jesus could have failed His mission. God could fail. The fact that someone in such a high station as Lucifer failed is evidence of that possibility.

HOMIE
Also false. Your cliam makes no sense. The devil failing is evidence that God could fail? Are you equating God and Satan?

TRIPICHUS
What would he be tempted to do anyway?

POWELL (replied)
To allow our spirits into the bodies of human-like animals before those bodies were sufficiently evolved. To destroy the Earth with water a second time. To kill everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah, even Lot's family. To leave Jacob without giving him a blessing. To kill virtually all of the people under Moses. To reduce the suffering of Jesus. To give too much power to His prophets before they are really worthy. To punish someone more or bless them less than they deserve. Those kinds of things.

HOMIE
Even more false claims. Even though I agree that God can theoretically lie, he cannot be tempted. To be tempted means that one considers the option presented. Although an outcome may be in Gods "desire" he would never consider fulfilling anything he had promised not to. Therefore he would never really be tempted. Also, Gods word says he could not be tempted.

BTW, if I appeared hostile or rude I am sorry, this was not my intent.

[The Laughing Man]

God could lie. Any rational being who knows how to tell the truth must know how to lie. Any being that has free will and knows how to tell the truth can, therefore lie.

Uh-uh. No. Sorry. It isn't that God "knows how to tell the truth." His very word is truth. In John 17, Jesus prays for his disciples and says (to the Father), "Your word is truth." Not "you know how to tell the truth." God's very word is truth by definition, and since the word is God (John 1), it follows that God is truth.

[Homie]

This may seem a bit wannabe-philosophical, but if God CANNOT lie is he omnipotent?

[The Laughing Man]

Today @ 05:35 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=92676#post92676)
Homie:

This may seem a bit wannabe-philosophical, but if God CANNOT lie is he omnipotent?

The way I see it, if God lied, then he wouldn't be omnipotent. I'm not sure I can fully wrap my brain around this issue right now, but try to look at it this way: as an omnipotent being, God's very word is reality, fact and truth. What He says is so. If it were not so, then He would not be omnipotent. Do you get what I mean?

[mickiel]

I want to post a strong disagreement with the teaching that Lucifer "fell" or turned evil on his own. This deception is the cause of much misunderstanding of God. Evil didnot create itself, slip past God and jump into Lucifer. Evil is a great power. The belief that things create themselves is called evolution, evil has no evolution. God needed evil in his plan of salvation, and he needed evil to have a represenative. In John 1:3, Christ is the creator of all things, nothing created itself. Nothing that "has come into being", did so without Christ, evil has definitely come into being. Read a description of Lucifer in Ezk. 28:12-15. Lucifer was sealed by God, annointed by God, he was perfect, sinless, and i know for a fact that nothing that lives can break a seal of God BUT GOD HIMSELF. God drafted Lucifer, did soething to him, and placed him into the position of the God of evil. Only God can make a God. Lucifer did not fall, he was changed.

[Homie]

JINX72
The way I see it, if God lied, then he wouldn't be omnipotent. I'm not sure I can fully wrap my brain around this issue right now, but try to look at it this way: as an omnipotent being, God's very word is reality, fact and truth. What He says is so. If it were not so, then He would not be omnipotent. Do you get what I mean?

HOMIE
I get it. You say that because God says something it must be true. So if he were to say something, like e.g. "let there be light!" and no light appeared, he would not be omnipotent. Am I correct?

However, I believe that your theory is flawed. Say that God said "There is hot chocolate on Pluto" except there is no hot chocolate on Pluto!! This does not mean that God is not
omni-ALotOfThings, he knows there is no hot chocolate on Pluto, he COULD make hot chocolate on Pluto to make his statement correct, but didn't, maybe he didn't feel like it, or maybe he just felt like lieing to show some earthlings that he could lie(joking :teeth:). So what are we left with here? A God who lied (reasons unknown) yet still maintaining his omni-powers. Ergo, God can lie (but doesn't), if he couldn't lie, that would be enough to take away his title 'omni-potent'.

[Warcraft3]

Homie:
Do you believe that Christ could not have failed in His mission?



Russ

[Homie]

Yes, but what has that got to do with anything?