Leibniz and Christian Philosophy

[stevencarrwork]

The Christian philosopher makes an excellent point

http://www.damaris.org/dcscs/readingroom/2000/williams1.htm

Most of it is wrong, but Peter is gradually converting me to the truth of Leibniz's Law.


Peter writes 'Leibniz's law of the Indiscernability of Identicals

Arguments against physicalism depend upon Leibniz's law of the indiscernability of identicals. This law simply states the obvious fact that: "For any entities x and y, if x and y are identical (they are really the same thing - there is only one thing you are talking about, not two), then any truth that applies to x will apply to y as well." This law suggests a test for identity; namely that if you find something true of x that is not true of y, or vice versa, then x cannot be identical to y.
For example: if I am over six feet tall but Napoleon is under six feet tall, then I am not Napoleon (and Napoleon is not me). '

End of quote of Peter's essay.

Was Jesus God?

If we can find something that is true of Jesus that was not true of God, then we can show that Jesus was not God, for exactly the same reason that Peter has shown that he is not Napoleon.

Jesus was , of course, a carpenter. God is not a carpenter.

One quick application of Peter's essay shows that Jesus is not God. QED.

So Christian philosophers have proved that Jesus is not God.

[Pilgrim]

Except that it is logically wrong given that multiple ontology is mathamatically provable and quantifiable.

[Pereynol of Sheer Dread]

Does anybody read Pseudo Dionysius anymore?

[John Powell]

stevencarrwork:
If we can find something that is true of Jesus that was not true of God, then we can show that Jesus was not God, for exactly the same reason that Peter has shown that he is not Napoleon.

Jesus was , of course, a carpenter. God is not a carpenter.

One quick application of Peter's essay shows that Jesus is not God. QED.

So Christian philosophers have proved that Jesus is not God.


POWELL:
I'll answer this from my former Mormon perspective.

JOHN MORMON:
Steve, if Jesus was God (and there was only one God) and Jesus was a carpenter then God was a carpenter. What's your problem with that?

Is God a carpenter now? If no, and Jesus is God now (and there's only one God now) then that implies that Jesus is not a carpenter now. What's your problem?

"God" to Mormons is a position of power, not so much an individual. There are three Gods in the Godhead or "presidency of Gods" ruling this planet: Elohim (the Father), Jehovah (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost, with Elohim the supreme over those.

John Powell
A former believer in Mormonism.
Now an athe-ist or strong atheist.

[Bob Jenkins]

[quote from John Powell]
JOHN MORMON:
Steve, if Jesus was God (and there was only one God) and Jesus was a carpenter then God was a carpenter. What's your problem with that?

Is God a carpenter now? If no, and Jesus is God now (and there's only one God now) then that implies that Jesus is not a carpenter now. What's your problem?

[comment]
Identical would mean that all characteristics of one reside with the other.. We know within Trinitarian thought that Christ was human.. God was not human

Faith it would seem disproves Leibniz's law of the indiscernability of identicals or is it that the law disproves a justification for faith

[djdavo]

how can you be flesh and spirit at the same time? how can your cells be all there is to you, and yet every single one of you cells be different every 2 years in your body?

bad argument in my opinion. to answer: how do you know god isn't a carpenter? or rather, how do you know he couldn't do some woodworking if he wished to?


<sarcasm>can god make a rock so big he can't lift it? you have no answer? AHA! there must not be a god! </sarcasm off>

this is the same argument that people use,which doens't make logical sense: it boils down to "i don't fully understand God so there is no God"


the bigger question is how can there be universal truth (ANY truth for that matter) if there is not dispenser of that truth? universal truth isn't dependent on culture or background or environment or evolutionary reasonings....

[AtheistArchon]

this is the same argument that people use,which doens't make logical sense: it boils down to "i don't fully understand God so there is no God"

- Ehh, actually I think it's more like: "Christians describe god as unknowable, therefore they cannot know anything about the deity they worship." No?

- Does anyone understand god?

- I, for one, have gone to great lengths in the past to settle on a concrete set of attributes that god possesses. Futile, I know, because each person I debate with will give me a drastically different set with different definitions, but even one on one I've never been able to get a complete description of what god is, where he is, what he's capable of, or what his qualities are. The debate usually ends with the Christian claiming that humans can't understand god (for various reasons)... but this poses a serious problem, since Christians do claim to know and understand god.

- See... the old gods and goddesses, they were more understandable. Zeus, Thor, Apollo; these guys had human emotions we can all understand, lived in "real" places, had physical bodies, and so on. The only problem is that they were too well defined. You get the idea. :smile:

[John Powell]

DJDAVO:
how can you be flesh and spirit at the same time? how can your cells be all there is to you, and yet every single one of you cells be different every 2 years in your body?


POWELL:
Apparently there is an assumption of continuity of personhood that violates the discoveries of science. We think we're the same person we were two years ago, but we really aren't any more than that decayed fruit is the ripe thing we once might have eaten.

DJDAVO:
bad argument in my opinion. to answer: how do you know god isn't a carpenter? or rather, how do you know he couldn't do some woodworking if he wished to?


POWELL:
I don't absolutely know, but I doubt it given the descriptions of God.

DJDAVO:
<sarcasm>can god make a rock so big he can't lift it? you have no answer? AHA! there must not be a god! </sarcasm off>

this is the same argument that people use,which doens't make logical sense: it boils down to "i don't fully understand God so there is no God"


POWELL:
You don't seem to understand the argument, Djdavo.

An omnipotent God CAN make a rock so big He can't lift it, but at the instant He makes it He would no longer be omnipotent. An omnipotent God CANNOT make a rock so big He can't lift it AND REMAIN OMNIPOTENT.

Does that make sense to you?

DJDAVO:
the bigger question is how can there be universal truth (ANY truth for that matter) if there is not dispenser of that truth?

universal truth isn't dependent on culture or background or environment or evolutionary reasonings....


POWELL:
Great. Can you give an example of such a universal truth that requires someone like God to tell us about it, that we couldn't figure out on our own?

John Powell
An athe-ist or strong atheist.