Can a non-christian's prayer be effective?

[djnoz]

I talked this through with my best mate a while back and discovered that he actually prays to God quite a bit, even though he is not a Christian.

Do my friends prayers wield power or are they just falling against thin air, unlistened to and unacted upon by God?

[Woman]

ha ha

I know you didn't mean for this to be funny, I have a weird sense of humor.

I just couldn't help thinking that the majority of the world is wrong if only Christian prayer is effective.

Actually, the studies that have been done on the effectiveness of prayer in helping surgical patients heal more quickly used all kinds of prayer.

[DanielleJoy]

He says he isn't Christian, but maybe he just doesn't want either the label or the responsibility... or maybe he uses that outlet to work out his problems, talking to someone seems to help a lot of people, which is why therapy is so popular. I don't think it falls on deaf ears, though, seeing as God can use that start of a belief to make it easier to form a real relationship.

[John Powell]

POWELL:
To DJNOZ and WOMAN.

As far as DJNOZ's question goes, as a believing Mormon I imagined that God responded to prayer based upon the person's worthiness, sincerity, but also the form. In other words, if a devout Muslim living Islam as best he knew were to pray to Allah, but not in the name of Jesus Christ, God would listen and respond, but not necessarily quite as much as if it were a Mormon living Mormonism the best he could and praying in the correct (best) way. When you do things the right way, keep His commandments, then God is justified in doing more for you.

Woman:

Actually, the studies that have been done on the effectiveness of prayer in helping surgical patients heal more quickly used all kinds of prayer.


POWELL:
I'm willing to allow that prayer has therapeutic value provided the patient believes in prayer and believes that people are praying for him. A positive attitude seems to produce beneficial biofeedback. People who believe they will pull through more often do than those who are skeptical. Theists may have a longer life-expectancy than atheists. That may be an evolutionary reason for religiosity in homo sapiens.

However, when remote prayer is performed without the patient believing it is being done then I think the evidence supports the null hypothesis: no significant beneficial effect.

An interesting historical case is that of the British Royalty. During the height of the British Empire, many millions of people every day would pray "God save the King" or "God save the Queen." However, the historical evidence suggests that the health and longevity of the British Monarchs during this time period were not significantly better than that of their near relatives who had similar lifestyles, diets, and medical care. If adding the daily prayers of millions doesn't cause a noticeable improvement to one's health, then how much improvement would you expect from a daily single prayer? In other words, if a million people can't seem to even budge the mountain, why would you think 1 person could completely move it?

John Powell
A former believer in Mormonism.
Now an athe-ist or strong atheist.

[Butters]

Yea, I just saw a rerun of South Park. When a bunch of people ended up in hell, they were confused, "I was a good protestent"
"Iwas a good Methodist" etc.

The correct answer was Morman. Only Mormans got into heaven.
Why not?


Do my friends prayers wield power or are they just falling against thin air, unlistened to and unacted upon by God?

Well, If your freind is not praying to Zeus they are wasted, everyone knows he's the only God.

[Alien Dragon]

04-17-2003 @ 04:31 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=70389#post70389)
djnoz:

I talked this through with my best mate a while back and discovered that he actually prays to God quite a bit, even though he is not a Christian.

Do my friends prayers wield power or are they just falling against thin air, unlistened to and unacted upon by God?

Intercessory prayer has been thoroughly debunked.

Prayer can help the person praying, to the extent that it includes active meditation, positive thinking, and creative visualization. Besides "programming" the subconcious mind, this can boost the immune system. Humor, placebos, and active motivation can also help.

Christian prayer is less effective because it is passive (asking for intercession), and implies mythological belief system.

[Warcraft3]

Yesterday @ 11:07 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=77187#post77187)
Alien Dragon:



Intercessory prayer has been thoroughly debunked.

Prayer can help the person praying, to the extent that it includes active meditation, positive thinking, and creative visualization. Besides "programming" the subconcious mind, this can boost the immune system. Humor, placebos, and active motivation can also help.

Christian prayer is less effective because it is passive (asking for intercession), and implies mythological belief system.



Intercessory prayer has been thoroughly debunked.

Wow:shocked: That was the most ridiculous statement I think Ive ever heard. How can you even claim such a thing? Surely you see the fallacy in that statement.

Christian prayer is less effective because it is passive (asking for intercession), and implies mythological belief system.

Where the heck did that one come from?:lol:


Im sorry if I sound critical here..........but you just cant make statements like that. None of those statements are backed up by any evidence and are so subjective they cant be taken seriously.



Russ

:em7:

[Bob Jenkins]

[quote]
“ Yesterday @ 11:07 PM post located here
Alien Dragon:



Intercessory prayer has been thoroughly debunked.

Prayer can help the person praying, to the extent that it includes active meditation, positive thinking, and creative visualization. Besides "programming" the subconcious mind, this can boost the immune system. Humor, placebos, and active motivation can also help.

Christian prayer is less effective because it is passive (asking for intercession), and implies mythological belief system. ”





“ Intercessory prayer has been thoroughly debunked. ”



Wow That was the most ridiculous statement I think Ive ever heard. How can you even claim such a thing? Surely you see the fallacy in that statement.

“ Christian prayer is less effective because it is passive (asking for intercession), and implies mythological belief system. ”



Where the heck did that one come from?


Im sorry if I sound critical here..........but you just cant make statements like that. None of those statements are backed up by any evidence and are so subjective they cant be taken seriously.

[comment]
I see that the response is as gulity of evidential refutation as it claims in the original.

[Warcraft3]

Bob Jenkins:

[comment]
I see that the response is as gulity of evidential refutation as it claims in the original.

Before you try to refute my statement I suggest you read some of my other posts. I dont play word games with people and I dont engage in silly arguing. My responce requires no evidence since I am merely pointing out that you said,
Intercessory prayer has been thoroughly debunked.

"Thoroughly debunked?" By what? How do you thoroughly debunk something like prayer?
You cant.
Its scientifically impossible to do such a thing. So your claim is false since its an impossibility.

In addition to that, the studies that have been done on prayer seem to give it some merit as woman mentioned in her post above:
Actually, the studies that have been done on the effectiveness of prayer in helping surgical patients heal more quickly used all kinds of prayer.

But I still dont claim that these studies are PROOF of prayers effectiveness, although they are food for thought. Im sorry if I sound rude or mean but your claim is as false as the claim that one can scientifically prove or disprove God (or prayer).

Oh and by the way since this is only your 10th post

WELCOME TO TWEB!!! :thumb:


Russ

:rockon:

[Bob Jenkins]

[quote]
I am merely pointing out that you said,
“ Intercessory prayer has been thoroughly debunked. ”



"Thoroughly debunked?" By what? How do you thoroughly debunk something like prayer?
You cant.
Its scientifically impossible to do such a thing. So your claim is false since its an impossibility.

[comment]
Not my post - only the words following "[comment]" are mine.

You have 140 some odd posts... Yet you would expect me to read each of them prior to making a comment about the paucity of your remarks? Perhaps you could incude enough in your comments to either give succinct relevance or include a reference where the responcse was discussed previously. The your post I commented on brought nothing to the table..

[djnoz]

When I pray I get results, and these results can affect the world around me, so this statement makes no sense to me at all:

Prayer can help the person praying, to the extent that it includes active meditation, positive thinking, and creative visualization. Besides "programming" the subconcious mind, this can boost the immune system. Humor, placebos, and active motivation can also help.

I expect this is how the Eastern meditation practices and such work. Oh yeah, also, welcome to TWeb :smile:

Anyway what I want to know is whether a non-christian's prayer can be effective within the context of Christianity - ie. will God listen to that prayer?

[Warcraft3]

Bob Jenkins:

It seems I have mixed up two different posts.

Here is one of my errors: My responce requires no evidence since I am merely pointing out that you said,
“ Intercessory prayer has been thoroughly debunked. ”

I used the word "you" when I should have said Alien Dragon. My apologies for the error.

You commented in your last post:
You have 140 some odd posts... Yet you would expect me to read each of them prior to making a comment about the paucity of your remarks? Perhaps you could incude enough in your comments to either give succinct relevance or include a reference where the responcse was discussed previously. The your post I commented on brought nothing to the table.

I did say some of my posts not all, but nonetheless I see the point of your comment. Very well then, I retract that statement and apologize for the comment.


Now that we have that cleared up..........


your post I commented on brought nothing to the table That is quite incorrect. My post was pointing out a logical error that alien dragon had made by suggesting even the possibility that something like prayer could be "thoroughly debunked". I will not argue this point since it is quite obvious that the statement is logically false. So I guess my answer to the question:

Is it possible for prayer to be "thoroughly debunked"? is................

http://www.bvvp.com/images/no.jpg


Russ
:rockon:

[Warcraft3]

djnoz:

Anyway what I want to know is whether a non-christian's prayer can be effective within the context of Christianity - ie. will God listen to that prayer?

I would say yes, it can indeed be effective.

In fact I believe if we compared the number of prayers "ignored" by God between Christians and non-Christians that the Chrstians would have many more "ignored" prayers than the non-Christians.

Russ

:rockon:

[Bob Jenkins]

[quote]
Is it possible for prayer to be "thoroughly debunked"? is................

[comment]
Of course not! Nor will other elements of Christianity ever be "debunked". It's just not possible with the numbers of existing Christians (or any other religion of an appreciable size). The lessons learned in childhood are tremendously difficult to change without re-inforcement of a new homogenous community and then, it seems, there is only a change from one "standard" to another.

Mythology, the dissmisive (but true) label for religion, is behavior and thought originating in the enviromental aspect of human developement. Religion owes it's life to parent's knee and the church nursery. "Get 'em while they're young" and you will perpetuate the religion. Of course, you must have the support network in place to keep it going.

I am one of those who came to be an atheist without the childhood indocrination of atheism. I had the thoughts and conclusions of an atheist before I knew that was what it was called. I am re-inforced by my "community" but it was my exeriences and reasoning that brought me to it.

[Warcraft3]

Bob Jenkins:

I am re-inforced by my "community" but it was my exeriences and reasoning that brought me to it.

Since many Christians would say the same thing concerning their viewpoint your statement does nothing to show that atheism has more validity than theism. Ive heard both sides of the fence claim that it was "evidence", "reason", and "experiences" which brought them to their respective viewpoint. There are many people who come to many veiws for many different reasons. Not all become theists because of some "childhood programmed" thinking.

We could go on all day with empty physco-babble about why people think as they do, but at the end of the day its just better to ask people why they believe or dont believe than to assume.


Russ

:juggle:

[nomad]

in any case, if non-christians' prayers weren't heard, no one would ever get saved here in america ;)

[Butters]

"Thoroughly debunked?" By what? How do you thoroughly debunk something like prayer?
You cant.
Its scientifically impossible to do such a thing. So your claim is false since its an impossibility."

Sure it is, you just have to run a honest, well set up, double blind study. If the results of prayer are not higher than the results expected by chance, it doesn't work. Of course i've seen this done with physics who still claimed it worked, when their results were even less than what would be expected by chance, so in a way you're right, it can never be debunked to the people that want to believe it.


"When I pray I get results, and these results can affect the world around me, so this statement makes no sense to me at all:"


" I don't pray, and I get results. I know many christians that pray, and sometimes get results, sometimes not, same as me, same as chance. I know, God allways answers, he just sometimes says no. Well, since he already has a plan, and you can't change that plan, and his plan might just include doing something horrable to you, why even bug him, he's going to do what he wants anyway, he knew what he was going to do to you before he created you.

Why do churchs need lightning rods?

[AtheistArchon]

- Here's the interesting thing about prayer "working" (and by working I mean 'getting whatever it was you prayed for').

- If prayer (Christian prayer, that is) worked, we would expect to see a statistically signifigant increase in "answered" prayers over unanswered prayers.

- As far as I'm aware, we don't see this. Additionally, you have to be mighty careful about what you pray for. For example, I can pray to my table all day long, and in each and every case, I can assure 100% accuracy... that is, 100% of my prayers will be answered (I will get what I pray for). All I have to do is ask for things like "let my car start today" or "let the sun come up tomorrow". Those types of things can't count if we're counting prayer validity. On the flipside, we also can't expect to have outrageous prayers answered either, like "let me win a million dollars tomorrow".

- Conspicuously, prayers of varying types tend to break down along the very same lines whether we're praying to a deity or the kitchen table:

1. "Let the sun come up tomorrow." Consistently answered by gods and tables.
2. "Let me win a million dollars in the lotto." Consistantly ignored by gods and tables.
3. "Let this coin come up heads." Gods and tables statistically reach a chance outcome every time.

- Lastly, I'm told by some Christians that prayer isn't a wish list; you should not expect to actually get what you pray for, i.e. the million dollars. Prayer is only a "communication" line to god. On the other hand, LOTS of believers tout prayer as "working"; they claim it gets them results that (presumably) would not have happened if they had not prayed. So, to these latter folk, I have to ask the following question. Does god change his plans on account of prayer?

- If we say that god intervenes when he answers prayers, then he is making a change in the plan. If you had not prayed, god would not have answered your prayer, and things would have turned out differently. And so as a result we are prodding god into making changes for us. Is that the way it works? Or can god act without being prayed at, perhaps?

[edit] I will give an example of what I mean. Let's say your friend is in the hospital, critically injured. The doctors tell you that his chances are about 50/50 of surviving. There are four possible outcomes:

1. If you pray for him and he recovers, does that mean that god would have let him die otherwise?
2. If you do not pray for him and he recovers anyway, then why do you need to pray for such things? God watched over him regardless.
3. If you pray for him and he dies, does this count as a failed instance of prayer? Or just an answered one where the answer was "No"?
4. If you do not pray for him and he dies, then why didn't god save him anyway? Perhaps god is powerless to act unless prayed at?

- I should note also that some people tell me that there are no unanswered prayers, there are just some that are answered by "No", or "In my good time"... which of course is exactly equal to the results we see from praying to the previously highlighted kitchen table. ANY result is a "positive".

- And why DO churches need lightning rods? :uhoh:

[Warcraft3]

Butters:

Ill have to get to the rest tomorrow after work, but I will comment on this phrase...

Sure it is, you just have to run a honest, well set up, double blind study. If the results of prayer are not higher than the results expected by chance, it doesn't work.

You can not really scientifically test prayer. There was a test done which seemed to add some scientific validity to prayer, but I do not go around claiming it as evidence since I see the fllacy in doing that. The exact same fallacy is present in your above statement.

Statistics and probability are difficult things to calculate in situations such as testing the validity of prayer. Even several general tests would be nothing better than something to talk about over coffee or beer.

You can not really disprove or prove prayer. Ive had this conversation like 2,365,721,359 times with my agnostic and atheistic friends and they would all agree with me here.

You may say you cant disprove it to those who believe, but I can say you cant prove it to those who dont believe. Both statements are equally true.

My original cirtisism of the argument remains as it was when I first stated it. The view of "testing" prayer and proving or disproving it is illogical.


Russ

:zzz:Time for bed:zzz:

[Warcraft3]

Atheist Archon:

Ill respond tomorrow after work.


Russ

:zzz:

[Nowhere357]

04-24-2003 @ 03:12 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=77524#post77524)
steadele:

Wow:shocked: That was the most ridiculous statement I think Ive ever heard. How can you even claim such a thing? Surely you see the fallacy in that statement.


Russ, this is Alien Dragon. Let me say you must live a sheltered life, if the idea that intercessory prayer is ineffective, is the most ridiculus statement you've ever heard.

http://members.aol.com/garypos/prayer.html

I had said: "Christian prayer is less effective because it is passive (asking for intercession), and implies mythological belief system."

Where the heck did that one come from?:lol:


The "passive" refers to the method of meditation. I think evidence shows that "active" meditation is more useful in terms of boosting the immune system, etc.

IMO taking responsibility for oneself will produce better results,
as opposed to a passive belief that some mythological diety in the sky will take care of you.

Im sorry if I sound critical here..........but you just cant make statements like that. None of those statements are backed up by any evidence and are so subjective they cant be taken seriously.


Plenty of evidence that intercessory prayer is ineffective. Therefore intercessory prayer is adequately debunked.

I admit I have no support for the idea that belief in dieties hinders the benefit of meditative prayer.

[Nowhere357]

04-24-2003 @ 08:19 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=77752#post77752)
steadele:

"Thoroughly debunked?" By what? How do you thoroughly debunk something like prayer?
You cant.
Its scientifically impossible to do such a thing. So your claim is false since its an impossibility.


I have to answer again because you used a size 10 font.

I said "debunked". I did not say "proven false". We can't prove a negative, I think that is what you mean. We certainly CAN debunk things.

By your size 10 outlook, we cannot even debunk santa claus! I hope by now you can see the error of your opinion.

[Warcraft3]

Russ, this is Alien Dragon. Let me say you must live a sheltered life, if the idea that intercessory prayer is ineffective, is the most ridiculus statement you've ever heard.

http://members.aol.com/garypos/prayer.html


Hello alien dragon (or nowhere357).

Um yes thanks for letting me know Im sheltered. Im sure all my atheist friends would agree with you that Im so sheltered. :no:

Your link does not prove your point.


I had said: ;Christian prayer is less effective because it is passive (asking for intercession), and implies mythological belief system.



The "passive" refers to the method of meditation. I think evidence shows that "active" meditation is more useful in terms of boosting the immune system, etc.

IMO taking responsibility for oneself will produce better results,
as opposed to a passive belief that some mythological diety in the sky will take care of you.

You assume I have never been exposed to other types of meditation. Well, I have and I simply disagree with your conclusion.



Plenty of evidence that intercessory prayer is ineffective. Therefore intercessory prayer is adequately debunked

No, there is not plenty of evidence that intercessory prayer is ineffective.

I have seen it be effective myself, therefore it is not "adequately debunked".

If you dont believe in prayers effectiveness thats fine, but to say its dubunked is false. Ive heard many arguments from my atheist friends to try to discredit Christianity, but they never use this one since it is a very weak argument.


I (and even some of my agnostic/atheist friends) have seen the power of CORRECT praying. There is a right way and a wrong way to pray, and many Christians prayers are ineffective because they pray wrongly.

You should show restraint when making such claims, since there isnt even enough data to make an intelligent conclusion concerning the "proof" of prayer.




Russ



:rockon:

[Warcraft3]

Today @ 10:33 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=80860#post80860)
Nowhere357:



I have to answer again because you used a size 10 font.

I said "debunked". I did not say "proven false". We can't prove a negative, I think that is what you mean. We certainly CAN debunk things.

By your size 10 outlook, we cannot even debunk santa claus! I hope by now you can see the error of your opinion.


We are not talking about Santa Claus. We are talking about the effectiveness of prayer. I have not heard too many personal testimonies on the reality of Santa Claus, but I have heard many on prayer.

Some of these testimonies would be very hard to explain as mere chance or wishful thinking.

To say you believe there is doubt about the validity of prayer is fine. But to use the phrase "thoroughly debunked" is implying something much stronger than simple doubt. I object to the finality and the dismissal I see in that phrase.



Russ

:read:

[Nowhere357]

Today @ 05:23 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=80961#post80961)
steadele:

We are not talking about Santa Claus. We are talking about the effectiveness of prayer. I have not heard too many personal testimonies on the reality of Santa Claus, but I have heard many on prayer.

Well, pretty much any western culture child under the age of about 6 will testify to the esistence of santa, so the analogy holds.

Some of these testimonies would be very hard to explain as mere chance or wishful thinking.


I assume you are talking about intercessory prayer, and that you are aware I hold the opinion that non-intercessory prayer can be very effective?

There are many testimonies of for example the loch Ness Monster. Without non-anecdodal (empirical?) evidence, I see no reason to accept testimony as truth.

But to use the phrase "thoroughly debunked" is implying something much stronger than simple doubt. I object to the finality and the dismissal I see in that phrase.


http://members.aol.com/garypos/prayer.html

All research that I'm aware of of, leads to the conclusion that intercessory prayer is not effective. Because there has been a lot of research, all leading to the same conclusion, I think it's safe to say that intercessory prayer has been debunked.

BTW http://www.cincinnatiskeptics.org/newsletter/vol6/n7/proto.html

This helps in distinguishing psuedo science from proto and "real" science. Very useful when investigating claims of research into subjects such as this.

[Warcraft3]

Well, pretty much any western culture child under the age of about 6 will testify to the esistence of santa, so the analogy holds.

I think the analogy is invalid.



I assume you are talking about intercessory prayer, and that you are aware I hold the opinion that non-intercessory prayer can be very effective?

Yes I am aware of this.

There are many testimonies of for example the loch Ness Monster. Without non-anecdodal (empirical?) evidence, I see no reason to accept testimony as truth.

That depends on who is giving the testimony and the specific circumstances surrounding the testimony.


http://members.aol.com/garypos/prayer.html

All research that I'm aware of of, leads to the conclusion that intercessory prayer is not effective. Because there has been a lot of research, all leading to the same conclusion, I think it's safe to say that intercessory prayer has been debunked.

I read the links. There are several which are critisizing specific miraculous claims as false. I am aware that most claims of healing are either faked or simply misinterpreted so these articles do not surprise me. They also do not cause me to doubt my position, since I am a very skeptical person myself.

Only a few of the articles deal with the larger studies on prayer. They do not disprove them, but rather the articles express some skepticism and doubt concerning the validity of the experiments. I think that this skepticism is healthy, and is to be expected. But they certainly do not disprove the experiments, but only cast doubt on the validity of them. Being skeptical and having doubt is not the same as showing the whole experiment to be erroneous and completely false.

BTW http://www.cincinnatiskeptics.org/newsletter/vol6/n7/proto.html

This helps in distinguishing psuedo science from proto and "real" science. Very useful when investigating claims of research into subjects such as this.

Yes I could add some criteria to that list myself. I am not some uneducated believer and I constantly question my own beliefs along with everything else.

Let me make something crystal clear here.....I may argue against you that prayer has not been disproven, but at the same time I do not think it has been proven either.

I have had experiences myself that I would consider miraculous, but I do not expect you to change your beliefs because I have seen such things.

Even if you find you can not explain the "miracles" Ive seen, you could still explain them by assuming I am simply lying or exaggerating. Indeed if I were in your shoes I would probably do just that (Im not implying you will do this, Im simply saying its an option).



Russ

[Nowhere357]

Today @ 09:16 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=81125#post81125)
steadele:


We are at an impasse. I find intercessory prayer sufficiently debunked; you dont, and so be it.

I will say that if additional evidence becomes available, I will consider it with an open mind. Until then, I will also say that belief in intercessory prayer requires a leap of faith, and so is inappropriate for inclusion into a freethinker's worldview.

Which is not the same as saying intercessory prayer is false. A claim I have not made, BTW.

[Warcraft3]

Today @ 04:37 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=81138#post81138)
Nowhere357:



We are at an impasse. I find intercessory prayer sufficiently debunked; you dont, and so be it.

So be it.

I will say that if additional evidence becomes available, I will consider it with an open mind. Until then, I will also say that belief in intercessory prayer requires a leap of faith, and so is inappropriate for inclusion into a freethinker's worldview.

I would call it a "step" of faith. :teeth: I appreciate it when people have an open mind.

Which is not the same as saying intercessory prayer is false. A claim I have not made, BTW.

Indeed you did not. I was not trying to imply you did.


Russ

:teeth: :juggle:

[Warcraft3]

Butters:
I don't pray, and I get results. I know many christians that pray, and sometimes get results, sometimes not, same as me, same as chance. I know, God allways answers, he just sometimes says no.
When comparing prayers of different people for the purpose of testing its effectiveness there are several factors to consider. What are you praying for? Why are you praying for it? What effect will the prayer have if it is answered? Its not as simple as just sometimes getting answers and sometimes not.

I do not believe that God always answers. In fact i think many (if not most) prayers go unheard.

Well, since he already has a plan, and you can't change that plan, and his plan might just include doing something horrable to you, why even bug him, he's going to do what he wants anyway, he knew what he was going to do to you before he created you.

First of all let me say that I am not a closed view theist, so I do not believe God is all knowing. I believe that often Gods plan is more of a general nature than a specific one. I also believe that you can indeed change Gods mind and affect the future through prayer.


Why do churchs need lightning rods?

For the same reason your house needs one. Lightning:smile:


Russ
:rockon:

[Warcraft3]

AtheistArchon:

Alot of stuff to address here, but Ill do my best....

- Here's the interesting thing about prayer "working" (and by working I mean 'getting whatever it was you prayed for').

I will try to remember your definition as I answer the post....

- If prayer (Christian prayer, that is) worked, we would expect to see a statistically signifigant increase in "answered" prayers over unanswered prayers.

This is true providing that the Christians who are praying are doing so correctly. I have found that most have no clue how to pray or why they even should be praying in the first place. So I am not surprised that we see no "statistically signifigant increase".

- As far as I'm aware, we don't see this.
I am not surprised by this.

Additionally, you have to be mighty careful about what you pray for. For example, I can pray to my table all day long, and in each and every case, I can assure 100% accuracy... that is, 100% of my prayers will be answered (I will get what I pray for). All I have to do is ask for things like "let my car start today" or "let the sun come up tomorrow". Those types of things can't count if we're counting prayer validity.

Quite correct. These type of prayers "stack the deck" in favor of a positive answer and are meaningless.


On the flipside, we also can't expect to have outrageous prayers answered either, like "let me win a million dollars tomorrow".

Again you are quite correct. These prayers are nothing more than slefish begging and serve no purpose besides satisfying ones greed and selfishness.

- Conspicuously, prayers of varying types tend to break down along the very same lines whether we're praying to a deity or the kitchen table:

Im just picturing someone praying to furniture here.......:eek: weird indeed.

1. "Let the sun come up tomorrow." Consistently answered by gods and tables.
Yes all furniture gods do indeed answer this prayer.
"2. "Let me win a million dollars in the lotto." Consistantly ignored by gods and tables.
Well if the table answered this prayer I have a feeling one might buy a much better table eventually. So I can understand furnitures reluctance to grant this one.
3. "Let this coin come up heads." Gods and tables statistically reach a chance outcome every time.
The sad thing is that some people actually do pray for such things

- Lastly, I'm told by some Christians that prayer isn't a wish list; you should not expect to actually get what you pray for, i.e. the million dollars. Prayer is only a "communication" line to god. Well it is a communication line in a sense, but it is more than that as well.
On the other hand, LOTS of believers tout prayer as "working"; they claim it gets them results that (presumably) would not have happened if they had not prayed. So, to these latter folk, I have to ask the following question. Does god change his plans on account of prayer?
Yes at times God does indeed choose to do something as a result of prayer.

- If we say that god intervenes when he answers prayers, then he is making a change in the plan. If you had not prayed, god would not have answered your prayer, and things would have turned out differently. And so as a result we are prodding god into making changes for us. Is that the way it works? Or can god act without being prayed at, perhaps?

A change in specific details does not have to change the overall plan.
We are not prodding God into making changes, but rather we are interacting with Him in a real, dynamic sense.
Can God act without prayer? Sure. But He often chooses to use humans to effect these changes.

I will give an example of what I mean. Let's say your friend is in the hospital, critically injured. The doctors tell you that his chances are about 50/50 of surviving. There are four possible outcomes:

Since the chances are 50/50 I feel a bit set up here in trying to answer, but I will answer anyway for a more general case.
Ill try to take these one at a time........

1. If you pray for him and he recovers, does that mean that god would have let him die otherwise?
Im not sure I would jump to that conclusion necessarily, but yes it is possible that he would have died without prayer.


2. If you do not pray for him and he recovers anyway, then why do you need to pray for such things? God watched over him regardless.
Why pray? Christians are commanded to pray for these things for starters. So as a matter of obedience a Christian should pray. Secondly, I do believe our prayers can affect and change the future and so we should pray.

3. If you pray for him and he dies, does this count as a failed instance of prayer? Or just an answered one where the answer was "No"?
It may very well have been a "no", assuming the prayer was an earnest one. I have had a personal experience with a situation like this. I will post it tomorrow night as an example.

4. If you do not pray for him and he dies, then why didn't god save him anyway? Perhaps god is powerless to act unless prayed at?

I really can not answer for God with regard to a specific situation.( i have had this happen to me and i ask this question every day, and have been asking for about 5 years)
I would not say that God is powerless to act unless prayed at.

- I should note also that some people tell me that there are no unanswered prayers, there are just some that are answered by "No"or "In my good time"which of course is exactly equal to the results we see from praying to the previously highlighted kitchen table. ANY result is a "positive".
Yes most christians give people pat answers like this. No matter what happens its all good and we should just go through life with a stupid smile pasted on our faces. I do not accept such answers and I think Christians need to wake up and stop glossing over things.
There ARE unanswered prayers. In fact most prayers are unanswered and have zero power.
I understand the frustration you might feel when getting answers like this (maybe you arent frustrated but I am). I will try to explain more tomorrow. The bottom line is Christians dont want to face the two possibilities:

1. The Christian God is not real
2. Christians are doing something very, very wrong in their spiritual walk.

Of course I am convinced it is #2 while you are convinced it is #1. I have seen a very small glimpse of what can happen when christians admit #2 and make corrections. But it is difficult and painful and is seldom practiced, so its just easier to give pat answers.


- And why DO churches need lightning rods? :uhoh:

Lightning :smile:


Russ

:rockon:

[djdavo]

04-25-2003 @ 08:11 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78661#post78661)
nomad:

in any case, if non-christians' prayers weren't heard, no one would ever get saved here in america ;)


WORD! i think this is your answer, NOZ (hi,by the way)....if a non-christians prayers are never answered, then how can one become a christian in the first place?
:smile:

[djdavo]

04-28-2003 @ 09:37 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=81138#post81138)
Nowhere357:



We are at an impasse. I find intercessory prayer sufficiently debunked; you dont, and so be it.

I will say that if additional evidence becomes available, I will consider it with an open mind. Until then, I will also say that belief in intercessory prayer requires a leap of faith, and so is inappropriate for inclusion into a freethinker's worldview.

Which is not the same as saying intercessory prayer is false. A claim I have not made, BTW.


something to look into that a preacher lady said at our church: she said there was an intercessory prayer group in England during WWII that would meet and prayed on 18 different occasions when britian came within 24hrs of being invaded and it 'turned the tide' for the british.

there's tons of examples of personaly testimonies of people who have been healed, and not just from benny hinn :wink:

of course the core problem is that if you don't believe in intercessory prayer you will excuse whatever evidence you see as coincidental, or simply will / brain power.

[Nowhere357]

djdavo:

of course the core problem is that if you don't believe in intercessory prayer you will excuse whatever evidence you see as coincidental, or simply will / brain power.

Without evidence, what reason is there to suppose that intercessory prayer works?

At any rate, "coincidental" occurances can be understood through statistics. This means that if intercessory prayer can work, then we could detect results that violate the "laws" of statistics.

I've seen studies on this, and none have been compelling. The only evidence for intercessory prayer seems to be the bible. But the bible for a fact requires liberal translation/interpretation.

SO I think that without validation of intercessory prayer, I shouldn't add the concept to my worldview.