Romans 8:28...calvinists' favorite verse!

[doogieduff]

I want to set the record straight on Romans 8:28. (This is for you Blake!) I consider it the most mistranslated verse in Christianity today. I'm going to hold that Romans 8:28 should be translated as this...

And we know that He [God] works with those loving God, with those called according to [His] purpose all things for good.

There is no mention of the word "causes" or the like, anywhere in the greek of this verse, yet calvinists hold to this verse as their trump card.

Anybody disagree?

[Solly]

What do you mean by "causes"?
What do you mean by "trump card"?

[GrayPilgrim]

Today @ 02:58 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=70677#post70677)
doogieduff:

And we know that He [God] works with those loving God, with those called according to [His] purpose all things for good.


Here is how Moo translates it in his commentary (NICNT, p. 508)


And we know that all things work togetehr for good for those who love God, for those who are called according ot his purpose[quote]

Schreiner (BECNT p. 448)
[quote]And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, to those who are called according to his purpose

Notice neither translation uses "cause", and notice that both have an impersoanl subject παντα (all things), which acurately reflects the Greek text. Moreover, I say you have mistransltaed it by puting God as the subject when in the text he is the object of a participial phrase.

And to quote Solly:

What do you mean by trump card?

[GrayPilgrim]

I will point out that NA25 P46 A B 81 sahidic did have ο θεος (God) after "works together", whereas the text as translated is supported by א C D F G Ψ 33. 1739. 1881 Maj. the entire Latin tradition Syriac Bohairic and Clemet.

[Pereynol of Sheer Dread]

"And we know that, for those who love God, all things work cooperatively together for good, to those who are called according to his purpose."


This is indeed one of my favorite verses. Proponents of all orthodox theologies can take comfort here!

[doogieduff]

I started this post for Blake Reas actually. We have been privately discussing this verse. His signature is this very verse and he uses the word "causes" in it, which makes an entirely different meaning. I find that Bruce Ware's book "God's Lesser Glory" translates this verse that exact same way. I wanted Blake to see that there is no mention of the wrod "causes" or anything else even like that.

The phrase "works with" is translated from (sunergei). This word is found 5 times in the NT. The NKJV translators always translated it "works with" except in Rom 8:28. I would like someone to please tell me why.

-Mark 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with (tou kuriou sunergountos) them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

-1 Co 16:16 submit to such, and to everyone who works (sunergounti) and labors with us.

-2 Co 5:22-6:1 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 1 We then, as workers together (sunergountes) with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain.

-James 2:22 Do you see that faith was working together with (sunayrgei) his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

This is very interesting. The calvinist wants us to think that Romans 8:28 shows God "making" things happen, when indeed the verse is actually portraying a God who works with us.

I am going to stick with my translation. There will be more to come. I don't want to throw out all I have at once, but rather take it slow. But first, let's work on this word (sunergei.)

Pereynol, I have no idea where you get that translation. I believe you pulled the word "cooperatively" out of thin air, it's not even there. If I'm not mistaken, the "all things" (panta) is that the very end of the verse in the greek, so why is everybody putting it at the beginning?

(Sorry, I don't know how to get greek fonts in here.)

[Blake Reas]

Actually the Puritans who where Calvinist interpreted the passage the same way as Schreiner and you Doogie!

For instance in All Things For Good Thomas Watson translates it thus:

We know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28

I am not sure what translation he is using but this seems very similar. Also I believe I misunderstood your point due to my flawed reading of your post. I might have let my assumptions get the best of me! :frown: I guess we all do at times.

By HIs Grace For His Glory,
Blake

[doogieduff]

Today @ 01:58 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=71103#post71103)
doogieduff:

I started this post for Blake Reas actually. We have been privately discussing this verse. His signature is this very verse and he uses the word "causes" in it, which makes an entirely different meaning. I find that Bruce Ware's book "God's Lesser Glory" translates this verse that exact same way. I wanted Blake to see that there is no mention of the wrod "causes" or anything else even like that.

The phrase "works with" is translated from (sunergei). This word is found 5 times in the NT. The NKJV translators always translated it "works with" except in Rom 8:28. I would like someone to please tell me why.

-Mark 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with (tou kuriou sunergountos) them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

-1 Co 16:16 submit to such, and to everyone who works (sunergounti) and labors with us.

-2 Co 5:22-6:1 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 1 We then, as workers together (sunergountes) with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain.

-James 2:22 Do you see that faith was working together with (sunayrgei) his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

This is very interesting. The calvinist wants us to think that Romans 8:28 shows God "making" things happen, when indeed the verse is actually portraying a God who works with us.

I am going to stick with my translation. There will be more to come. I don't want to throw out all I have at once, but rather take it slow. But first, let's work on this word (sunergei.)

Pereynol, I have no idea where you get that translation. I believe you pulled the word "cooperatively" out of thin air, it's not even there. If I'm not mistaken, the "all things" (panta) is that the very end of the verse in the greek, so why is everybody putting it at the beginning?

(Sorry, I don't know how to get greek fonts in here.)

Pereynol, maybe you are more right on than I first thought. The "works with" is important, and nobody seems to put it there. Although, you have put in "cooperatively", which actually is closer to what I say. You are showing more than one thing at work. It's not that God "forces" things to happen, rather "works with" us in all things.

[doogieduff]

Today @ 03:20 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=71175#post71175)
Blake Reas:

Actually the Puritans who where Calvinist interpreted the passage the same way as Schreiner and you Doogie!

For instance in All Things For Good Thomas Watson translates it thus:

We know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28

I am not sure what translation he is using but this seems very similar. Also I believe I misunderstood your point due to my flawed reading of your post. I might have let my assumptions get the best of me! :frown: I guess we all do at times.

By HIs Grace For His Glory,
Blake

No prob Blake! Glad we got it settled. So are you going to change your signature now? Hmmm!

Also, do me one more thing. I really want to know why Bruce Ware translated it wrong in his book. This is for you Solly also. That's why I brought up the word "causes" and called the verse the calvinist trump card. Bruce Ware's book "God's Lesser Glory" is supposedly the biggest proponent out there against the open view, and he uses this verse to show that the open view is wrong. Let me quote his book, let's all follow along on page 192...

Romans 8:28-32

We begin this brief biblical survey with a passage of Scripture that has brought great comfort and strength to Christians throughout the centuries. In Romans 8:28-32, Paul writes:

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those called according to His purpose.

Bruce Ware delves into a passage and tries to shoot down the open view with a completely wrong translation.

No big deal you say? Well it really is. Here's why. What about the person who reads this and doesn't know greek. He's going to trust that Bruce Ware is actually putting the correct translation of the verse, and hence believe exactly what Bruce Ware wants him to believe. That God "causes" all things to work for God. Sound theology is incredibly important, especially when mere children (in their theology, not physically) are reading this book.

Any thoughts?

[Sozo]

I believe that the correct rendering of the passage is:

"But we know that to those who love God all things work together for good, to those who according to purpose called are"

My understanding of "all things" relates to those things which are in Christ, the things that we are conformed into (holiness, sanctification, righteousness, etc.). For this fulfills the purpose and plan of God.

[Blake Reas]

We know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28

Besides this though I am interested i what the "all things" really is. We will have to go back to find out but I have always read it in the NASB, ESV(which has it translated correctly, it is also the best translation) as being universal in scope. God works all things universally for the good of those whom he loves. If I am wrong I will concede but if the "all things" is universal it would appear that he would have a huge amount of control.

By His Grace For His Glory
Blake

[GrayPilgrim]

Hey I am working on the all things of Romans 8 here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=69799#post69799).

[Act9_12Out]

doogieduff,

Here's how I think Romans 8:28 should be translated:


“And we know that He [God] works with those loving God, with those called according to [His] purpose all things for good.”

There are at least two ways to translate Romans 8:28 which are consistent with the original syntax. The question is which way is most suitable to the immediate context of the verse and to the overall NT usage of the words used in the verse. (Of course, which way conforms best to the overall theology of the NT is also a consideration.)

Here’s the text in transliteration:


Oidamen de hoti tois agaposi ton theon panta sunergei eis agathon tois kata prothesin kletois ousin.

The main bone of contention is the subject of the verb sunergei. This verb is in the singular, which would normally indicate a singular subject. However, it’s standard in Koine Greek to use a singular verb with a neuter plural subject. Thus, the noun panta, ‘all’ or ‘all things’, is eligible as well. That’s how KJV took it: “all things work together for good.” This is a reasonable rendering for the verse in isolation.

Alternatively, one may take panta as the object of sunergei and then find a singular subject for the verb. My translation takes God as that subject. While”God” does not occur in the nominative (subject) case in the verse, it’s an entirely reasonable proposal. In fact, numerous NT manuscripts do just that, supplying the nominative ho theos immediately after the verb; I have no doubt the scribes who did this actually believed that “God” is the subject and inserted it for clarity rather than introducing it as a deliberate alteration of the sense. And it’s hardly unusual for Scripture to read simply “he” (usually, as here, implicit in the verb form) when predicating an action of God or of Jesus.

The advantage (speaking in purely linguistic terms) of understanding God as the subject of sunergei is that the verb means ‘to assist, to work together with’ someone. The overall NT usage of sunergeo bears this out:


And those men went out and proclaimed everywhere, the Lord working together [with them] and confirming the word through accompanying signs. (Mark 16:20)

I exhort... you to submit to such [persons] and to anyone who works together and labors [in ministry]. 1 Corinthians 16:16

We, then, working together [with God?] also exhort you not to receive the grace of God to no purpose. (2 Corinthians 6:1)

Do you see that [Abraham’s] faith was working together with his works, and of his works his faith was made complete? (James 2:22)

Especially in light of Paul’s teaching that we are God’s co-workers (sunergoi, 1 Corinthians 3:9), it fits that God and we would be co-workers in Romans 8:28.

Further, in the immediately preceding context, Paul is teaching about how the Holy Spirit “helps us [sunantilambanomai, another sun compound verb] in our weaknesses... intercedes for us... intercedes for the saints.” The whole context is about divine-human synergy, about God working with us on behalf of His good purpose. It isn’t about how “things” just happen to come together for us; it is about God working with us.

I am also considering a different twist on the passage, but haven't reached a conclusion as of yet. As I read verse 28 flowing forth from verse 27, I think the subject of sunergei could be the Holy Spirit:


For [the Spirit] intercedes on behalf of the saints, and we know that [the Spirit] is working together all things for good with those who love God, those who are called according to His purpose.”

The subject then switches to God (the Father) in verse 29, picking up on the use of theon in verse 28.

For what it's worth, I hope this helps!

--Jeremy