Disclaimer 1: I have been meaning to ask some questions on these boards for a while now, but have had a great deal of trouble working up my nerve because I've had some poor experiences trying to work with local pastors and such. Hopefully this will prove a better place for me. I'd normally build up some history of posts before going into stuff like this (and I was somewhat active in the roleplaying game area of the previous incarnation of these boards once upon a time), but I feel like I need to strike now before I lose my nerve again. Please don't look down on my request because of this.
Disclaimer 2: I've got Asperger's Syndrome so I have a lot to say that is worth saying, but I have great difficulty making myself clear. This problem is never going to go away entirely, and I can only make progress towards being more clear in the future if people are very gentle and patient with me now. This also means that asking clarifying questions on both sides, rather than assuming the "obvious" interpretation of what is being said is going to be pretty important. Please, let us help each-other to remember this. I've been trying to do this most of my life and I STILL forget.
Disclaimer 3: I asked in the shoutbox what area to put this question in, but they weren't 100% sure.
In an attempt to deal with a possible confusion, I'm going to state the question by first stating a related question that I DON'T know the answer to to my satisfaction, but which I also DON'T have a high priority on getting an answer to unless it is necessary for my primary question of the moment. "Why does God make Faith so necessary instead of, say, having angels standing on every street corner proclaiming his existence and will or something similarly intense?"
So, here is the best I can do for an explanation of the question I AM asking:
Crude Summary(I'm bad at summaries/topic sentences): “With basic Faith sufficient for Salvation, and perhaps a bit more to accept some additional closed-ended concepts (so not, for example, the validity of any given mortal authority in determining eternal truth or interpreting the Bible), but including the Bible itself, how much of God’s will is going to HAVE to always remain a matter of Faith until the second coming, and how much can be verified by examining our world scientifically and combining it with our ‘small faith pool’?”
I guess I should further clarify that the issue I'm wrestling with has to do with the fact that a lot of people seem to claim that even seeming-advanced and/or fine distinctions can't be proven from more basic principles when it comes to God's will. And I'd like to know how they came to such a conclusion... or more precisely I would like the discipleship of someone who doesn't make such a conclusion, but I'd settle for a clearly-reasoned defense of such a position.
To put this another way, faith that this or that aspect of eternal Biblical Morality is precisely X, Y, or Z (or rather "X rather than X+0.0001 or X-0.0001 or X+0.0001-0.0001i") because that is how most people think the Holy Spirit is leading them is fine with me... to begin with. Fast forward a century or two in something like a modern era and if the Christian community has not come up with potential challenges and refinements and put some real and well-documented effort into proving or dis-proving them, then I think it calls into question if those precepts are actually true. The alternative is that they are just as close as the Holy Spirit is going to get us, because expecting divine revelation of refinements we darn well should have been able to think of to raise as challenges and figure out the applicability because we were studying the world around us, asking why God wants this or that, and actively searching out the Holy Spirit's guidance and being open to both direct guidance, and (must more likely) guidance of our own slightly more mundane researches seems to me to merely be laziness of leadership. Of course, God is faithful to give us what we need, but if the leadership is not doing their job right, the Christian on the street may be left in a much more difficult situation. To use an extreme example you have the situation of the Pharisees who "tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them." Now I hardly think that very many Christian leaders are truly guilty of not helping others at all to lift the loads that they honestly feel God asks us to bear, but a much deeper idea of the why's and such can aid in both mental fortitude and (my favorite methodology) creative problem solving.
Now, obviously, there is thought and research going on, but when I go to someone and ask for an answer to if a "creative solution" I've come up with is, in fact, acceptable, I expect the response to be either air-tight reasoning from our shared assumptions or "huh, you are right, we don't understand this as well as we should, someone should really fix that some time.".
[Sidenote]Yes, there is a specific issue that this has come up regarding in my life. No, this is not the time for me to bring it up, due to the "tender open wounds" that still exist from my previous attempts at getting meaningful answers. Nor does it happen to fall under the areas of discussion that may be openly posted on any part of T-Web unless there was a major revision of the rules that I am not aware of. In any case, I'm trying to take a step back and practice what I preach by reviewing my basic assumptions.[/Sidenote]
All of which could maybe be answered if there is an honest feeling of "Well, this is why that can never ever ever work, so of course we save ourselves the trouble and don't try." Naturally such an argument might not be able to be stated very precisely, for the very reasons of what it is trying to prove... or maybe, in God's Mercy, it could.
So, what questions can people come up with to clarify what I am trying to find out? I'd very much advise and prefer starting there rather than anyone trying to answer right off the bat.
Disclaimer 2: I've got Asperger's Syndrome so I have a lot to say that is worth saying, but I have great difficulty making myself clear. This problem is never going to go away entirely, and I can only make progress towards being more clear in the future if people are very gentle and patient with me now. This also means that asking clarifying questions on both sides, rather than assuming the "obvious" interpretation of what is being said is going to be pretty important. Please, let us help each-other to remember this. I've been trying to do this most of my life and I STILL forget.
Disclaimer 3: I asked in the shoutbox what area to put this question in, but they weren't 100% sure.
In an attempt to deal with a possible confusion, I'm going to state the question by first stating a related question that I DON'T know the answer to to my satisfaction, but which I also DON'T have a high priority on getting an answer to unless it is necessary for my primary question of the moment. "Why does God make Faith so necessary instead of, say, having angels standing on every street corner proclaiming his existence and will or something similarly intense?"
(From the shoutbox: <LostSheep>)
I don't know the complete answer to your first question, but one reason seems to be that by God requiring faith, He is requiring trust in His character and who He is, based on His works in history and in our lives.
I don't know the complete answer to your first question, but one reason seems to be that by God requiring faith, He is requiring trust in His character and who He is, based on His works in history and in our lives.
So, here is the best I can do for an explanation of the question I AM asking:
Crude Summary(I'm bad at summaries/topic sentences): “With basic Faith sufficient for Salvation, and perhaps a bit more to accept some additional closed-ended concepts (so not, for example, the validity of any given mortal authority in determining eternal truth or interpreting the Bible), but including the Bible itself, how much of God’s will is going to HAVE to always remain a matter of Faith until the second coming, and how much can be verified by examining our world scientifically and combining it with our ‘small faith pool’?”
I guess I should further clarify that the issue I'm wrestling with has to do with the fact that a lot of people seem to claim that even seeming-advanced and/or fine distinctions can't be proven from more basic principles when it comes to God's will. And I'd like to know how they came to such a conclusion... or more precisely I would like the discipleship of someone who doesn't make such a conclusion, but I'd settle for a clearly-reasoned defense of such a position.
To put this another way, faith that this or that aspect of eternal Biblical Morality is precisely X, Y, or Z (or rather "X rather than X+0.0001 or X-0.0001 or X+0.0001-0.0001i") because that is how most people think the Holy Spirit is leading them is fine with me... to begin with. Fast forward a century or two in something like a modern era and if the Christian community has not come up with potential challenges and refinements and put some real and well-documented effort into proving or dis-proving them, then I think it calls into question if those precepts are actually true. The alternative is that they are just as close as the Holy Spirit is going to get us, because expecting divine revelation of refinements we darn well should have been able to think of to raise as challenges and figure out the applicability because we were studying the world around us, asking why God wants this or that, and actively searching out the Holy Spirit's guidance and being open to both direct guidance, and (must more likely) guidance of our own slightly more mundane researches seems to me to merely be laziness of leadership. Of course, God is faithful to give us what we need, but if the leadership is not doing their job right, the Christian on the street may be left in a much more difficult situation. To use an extreme example you have the situation of the Pharisees who "tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them." Now I hardly think that very many Christian leaders are truly guilty of not helping others at all to lift the loads that they honestly feel God asks us to bear, but a much deeper idea of the why's and such can aid in both mental fortitude and (my favorite methodology) creative problem solving.
Now, obviously, there is thought and research going on, but when I go to someone and ask for an answer to if a "creative solution" I've come up with is, in fact, acceptable, I expect the response to be either air-tight reasoning from our shared assumptions or "huh, you are right, we don't understand this as well as we should, someone should really fix that some time.".
[Sidenote]Yes, there is a specific issue that this has come up regarding in my life. No, this is not the time for me to bring it up, due to the "tender open wounds" that still exist from my previous attempts at getting meaningful answers. Nor does it happen to fall under the areas of discussion that may be openly posted on any part of T-Web unless there was a major revision of the rules that I am not aware of. In any case, I'm trying to take a step back and practice what I preach by reviewing my basic assumptions.[/Sidenote]
All of which could maybe be answered if there is an honest feeling of "Well, this is why that can never ever ever work, so of course we save ourselves the trouble and don't try." Naturally such an argument might not be able to be stated very precisely, for the very reasons of what it is trying to prove... or maybe, in God's Mercy, it could.
So, what questions can people come up with to clarify what I am trying to find out? I'd very much advise and prefer starting there rather than anyone trying to answer right off the bat.
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