Dissection Aversion-how common among whom?

[Epoetker]

Because I am a cold*, hard-hearted**, uncaring***, evil****, horrible***** person-at least when it comes to frogs-biological dissection was an activity I engaged in with much gusto. (I had to remove the sciatic nerve from a frog, which means cutting the spine in half and separating the leg muscles, then cutting off all of the gooky****** connecting nerves/muscles/tendons/blood vessels to get at the nerve you want. The frog was anesthitized and near-brain dead, but still alive. Had far too much fun getting the leg to twitch by pulling the surgical thread on the nerve.) I suspect that the upcoming cerebral lesioning of a rat (yes, this one has to stay alive AFTER surgery) will be more exacting and careful-minded, but I'm still my group's choice for the job. Anybody else had particular dissections they remember having to do? Their thoughts?

*-Supporter of the Iraq war
**-sometimes plays violent video games
***-supports the eternal hell concept
****-defends neoconservatism
*****-uses satire that hits too close to home
******-meaning of slimy or froggy consistency, not an oblique racist reference comparing Vietnamese with frogs. The Frogs were the original colonial occupiers of Vietnam anyway, and conflict continues with them to this day. As is usually the case, diplomacy is a distasteful business with Frogs, and only invasive surgery seems to make them useful for anything in particular.

[Dr.GH]

There is no question that the live manipulation of organisms is needed, both for the extention of knowledge, and the education of the young. There are questions about the point at which vivisection is needful for education, as well as the requisite result of a justifying cost/benefit ratio.

A friend of mine couldn't get his research protocall approved by the Animal Experimantal Subject Review, but he did recieve Human Experimental Review approval.

Can anyone guess why?

When students begin their first human dissection they are frightened. Two things frighten them: they are afraid of death represeented by the carcass, and they are afraid of "hurting" the cadaver. We try to impress on them at that moment that death is merely something that happens to us all, and that the cadaver can not feel any pain. PLUS, if they will always remember that they should treat their living patients with the same care, and attention that they had used for this dead body, they wil be much better physicians, nurses, and etc...

The better surgical staff seemed to miss the lesson. Heh, heh.

Personally, I recall a total ass killing 4 rats before the TA threw them out of the lab.

edited to add: BTW, I see we are neighbors. I live in Dana Point.

[Epoetker]

Irvine, in my case. Yep, your attitude is pretty much the same propounded in my biological safety and ethics course, as well as the first couple of lab notes on the required surgical procedures.

My friend's in the Microbiology lab currently, and he said the very first thing they had to do on the very first day was kill ("shank") a rat. And he, who fits all the qualities I gave in my first post only moreso, was MUCH more reticent than I would have been. Then again, I haven't done mammals yet.

4 rats? Yeargh. Sadistic little bastard.

My reccomendation so far for biologists is to say something like: "Hate dissections? Go into biochemistry. But you have to go learn the MATH you hated in order to do it."

[Dr.GH]

Heh, heh.

I did my doc at UCI, and my first faculty job. Later I taught at the Medical College of Georgia, and a few other places.


"
4 rats? Yeargh. Sadistic little bastard."

Naw...... just stupid. As I recall, they OD the first one, crushed the skull (in the steriotaxis) of the second. They drilled through the brain of the third trying for a canula, and the fourth was euthanized when the B.H. glued the rats eyes OPEN when they were fixing the electrodes.

This was about 30 years ago at UCI by the way.

I had a post-doc once that was so afraid of rats that he had to anesthetize them with ether in a bucket, and then give them phenobarbitol. I think he killed 3 out of 4.

[lostseptember]

I thought this was a Christian forum! Is it possible that there are people who really believe that cruelty is funny and even worse that God approves?

[djnoz]

I thought this was a Christian forum! Is it possible that there are people who really believe that cruelty is funny and even worse that God approves?

My opinion is that pointless cruelty is a poor idea. However I think animal testing is okay as long as it has medical benefit.

We kill and eat animals to benefit our bodies nutritionally. We do animal testing so that we can develop medicines that cure diseases in our bodies, also benefitting us. Animal testing is just a less direct thing than meat eating.

[lostseptember]

djnoz,
It's the obvious enjoyment of the suffering of the lab animals in the previous posts that I find so disturbing.

tem

[Dr.GH]

My reccomendation so far for biologists is to say something like: "Hate dissections? Go into biochemistry. But you have to go learn the MATH you hated in order to do it."

That was the funny part. And, yep Epoetker seems to be a bit defensive.

However, I enjoy fishing. The fact that I release most all the fish I catch does nothing to alter the fact that this is needlessly harming fish for my idle amusement. The destruction of animals that Epoetker is engaging in is an unavoidable consequence of his training. His actions would be no different even if his emotional responce were different.

[lostseptember]

Dr. GH
I sincerely believe that our actions depend heavily on our emotional responses! Sometimes that is a good thing and sometimes it's not. For example my emotional response to the original posts in this thread led me to judge people I don't know. I ask the forgiveness of all for this. But, I believe if human beings , on an emotional level, cared for the creatures God pronounced to be "good" when they were created, then there would be much less "necessary" suffering.

lostseptember

[Dr.GH]

You will get no argument from me on that point. I am questioning my fishing enjoyment.


To commit surgery to save the life of a patient merges with committing surgery because the patient wants big boobs, to kill a fish to feed your family merges with sticking a hook into a fish just for fun.

Where would you draw a line demarking moral from immoral?

[lostseptember]

Dr. GH,
I also struggle with this question. The best answer for me is what is my intent and do I feel guilty about it afterwards. Your intent when you go fishing is not "Yippee, I'm gonna go hurt some fish!". Do fish get hurt anyway? Who knows with fish!
I understand that in the Jewish tradition that animals killed for food have to be slaughtered in a special way so as to cause as little suffering as possible. Maybe that's the key..living our lives with the understanding that we are physically part of this world but we can choose the kinder paths. (Such as throwing the fish back.)
Don't stop fishing!

[Dr.GH]

This was in the news today :

British scientists say fish do feel pain
http://www.msnbc.com/news/907199.asp

I saw it first thing after coming in from a day of fishing. I am afraid the say, but I doubt that I will stop fishing on this account. I have already reconciled with killing the occasional fish anyway.

[Epoetker]

Note: My emotional response was probably the thing which enabled me to do the deed quickly and accurately.

Though actually, I think I cultivated this insouciant response to dissection back in high school bio lab where I had to spend LIKE 20 MINUTES SCRAPING BONE OFF A DEAD FROG"S HEAD TO EXPOSE THE BRAIN. Destroys the emotional connection between man and amphibian real quick.

If it helps, I was still vaguely creeped out by the section of rabbit ileum muscle we had to voltaically test this week. Just a two-inch muscle section, but watching it slowly undulate back and forth was rather sobering.

Take heart: %90 of bio undregrads have something like the same wicked sense of humor. And the women are worse.

[Bill the Cat]

Bill the Cat yacks over needles, so dissection is DEFINITELY out of the question...

:eek: :eww:

[lostseptember]

Why do undergraduate biology courses (and high school courses too) need dissection as a teaching aid? I don't recall learning any useful information from the formalinized worms, frogs, sea cucumbers, clams, sharks, etc. that I dissected in biology and physiology classes. There may be some uses for such things in professional programs but not before (in my opinion).

[Epoetker]

Simple. Weeding out the squeamish early.

Note: The frog was either dead or paraplegic when I was actually making it's leg twitch, so NO PAIN THERE. I'm not a fully fledged scientist yet, but bisecting the spinal column generally means that one can't feel anything beneath it.

Bill: Yes, I've noticed that I've also been rather gung-ho about giving blood. Same attitude prevails for oneself as what one operate on. Of course, since I'm pretty thin, there's generally no danger of missing the vein. Try it sometime, it ain't just a 9/11 thing...

[Wesley's son]

04-19-2003 @ 08:54 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=73623#post73623)
Dr.GH:

Heh, heh.

I did my doc at UCI, and my first faculty job. Later I taught at the Medical College of Georgia, and a few other places.



Naw...... just stupid. As I recall, they OD the first one, crushed the skull (in the steriotaxis) of the second. They drilled through the brain of the third trying for a canula, and the fourth was euthanized when the B.H. glued the rats eyes OPEN when they were fixing the electrodes.

This was about 30 years ago at UCI by the way.

I had a post-doc once that was so afraid of rats that he had to anesthetize them with ether in a bucket, and then give them phenobarbitol. I think he killed 3 out of 4.



You taught at MCG? I'm working there right now as a research assistant in the Biochemistry/ Molecular Biology department.

What a small world.

[Epoetker]

Just finished rat nigrostriatal lesion. Our first rat didn't respond well to anasthesia, even after 3 injections.:shocked: Our lab tech was nice enough to get another rat and slice n' expose the skull really, really, fast. Near-bloodless fast. Ninja-fast. Mechanical skills of some of these RA's are astounding. Have to also give commendations to my partner who drilled a millimeter through the skull with an exactitude that required no additional risk of brain damage. Well, other than the fact that we were lesioning the substantia nigra in the first place (creating an animal with Parkinson's symptoms.) Our scribe wrote down everything necessary, and our liason...sat there too mesmerized to follow orders most of the time:shrug:

[Dr.GH]

05-07-2003 @ 10:10 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=90095#post90095)
Wesley's son:

You taught at MCG? I'm working there right now as a research assistant in the Biochemistry/ Molecular Biology department.

What a small world.

So how is life in "Disgusta" these days. I left in 1985 or so. Not too long ago I heard from a buddy of mine back there, Les Polard. He is a historian, and last I knew he was Chairman of his department at Paine College.

There was a group of folks from MCG, Paine, and Agusta College that would get together every Friday afternoon. I'll bet that if you give Les a call, they are still meeting somewhere (that serves adult beverages to be sure).