god's role in salvation

[nomad]

well, although that is an accurate title, this thread will not be about what you thought it was :)

we all know what god has already done in regards to salvation. yet, of course, some people are saved and some are not.

my question regards god's role in someone ELSE'S salvation. so i am not looking for soteriology, unless it is needed to explain your position.

three basic questions:

- do you think it is appropriate to pray for someone else's salvation?

- if so, how exactly do you word such prayers?

- and also if so, what exactly are you asking God to do? (that He has not already done)

[joelkaki]

do you think it is appropriate to pray for someone else's salvation?

Yes.


- if so, how exactly do you word such prayers?

- and also if so, what exactly are you asking God to do? (that He has not already done)

I'll answer these last two as one. I word them by asking God to sovereignly come into someone's life, regenerate them, and give them true living faith in him if it be his will.

Joel

[sacre]

Paul says in Romans 10:1 that "[his] heart's desire and [his] prayer to God for them is for their salvation."

In the same context (that is, my friends that have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge), I find it appropriate to request that God's glory be revealed in this way, that He would effectually call them to His salvation. In my opinion, this attitude arises directly from my understanding of the dominion mandate, that we should (and will) take over the entire world, so to speak, either by conversion or by consumption (God's judgement is just, nor could it be otherwise). Thus I pray that the wicked would be routed in the face of the church, and that the chosen would see His glory.

It could come down to this: my willingness to be a tool will directly affect my joy and peace in Christ, because He has already commanded such things. Thus, my prayer for the salvation of the lost has more to do with me than with God, for what it's worth.

Godspeed,
R

[nomad]

ok.

the reason for this is that i've never been very happy with either arminianism or calvinism (i believe those are the most common terms).

for the calvinist, the future of everyone has been determined, and it is God's choice. so the calvinist can validly ask God to save someone else, but does not have the right to do so.

for the free will advocate, God's will cannot override someone's free will (otherwise, there is no free will), so the free will has the right to ask God for someone's salvation (because God has not already given a yes or no), but allows no valid way for God to 'force' the salvation.

after the first response though, i realized it is probably my lack of understanding of the calvinist theology on prayer. so can anyone point me to a good one they agree with?

[joelkaki]

ok.

the reason for this is that i've never been very happy with either arminianism or calvinism (i believe those are the most common terms).

for the calvinist, the future of everyone has been determined, and it is God's choice. so the calvinist can validly ask God to save someone else, but does not have the right to do so.

How is it that he does not have the right to do so? We do have the right to do so, but notice that I said we pray, "if it be your will." That is how we should pray, and indeed, how we should think, about everything--if it be his will. So when I pray for the salvation of a person, I pray that God would open their eyes and heart to the truth if it be his will. I have the right and the obligation to do so from Scripture, and it is also valid.


for the free will advocate, God's will cannot override someone's free will (otherwise, there is no free will), so the free will has the right to ask God for someone's salvation (because God has not already given a yes or no), but allows no valid way for God to 'force' the salvation.

Exactly a problem with Arminianism. It is not, "If you will Lord, bring them to yourself." It is more, "If they so will, Lord, bring them to yourself." That is man-centered and wrong.


after the first response though, i realized it is probably my lack of understanding of the calvinist theology on prayer. so can anyone point me to a good one they agree with?

I would point you to R.C. Sproul--an outstanding Calvinist teacher and author. His web address is www.ligonier.org
If I am not mistaken, he recently wrote a book on prayer. And I think the April issue of his monthly magazine, Tabletalk, was on prayer, with some great articles. They'll send you that issue free, I think, if you are a first timer to their website. You could search their catalog, and I know he has at least one book on prayer, too.

Joel

[nomad]

How is it that he does not have the right to do so? We do have the right to do so, but notice that I said we pray, "if it be your will."


but as a calvinist, don't you believe that the end is already ordained? i mean, if they are going to be saved, God has already decided it, and if they aren't going to be saved, then your prayer won't do anything.

now, i have heard arguments that my prayer (which God knew i would give) is part of God's method by which that person will be saved. so i know that there are defenses for this.

in one sense i agree with you, that prayer outside of God's wishes is not going to get you far (say james 4:2-3).

but on the other hand... according the gospels, you don't see the apostles doing this. peter says 'i don't have silver or god, but i'll give you what i have.. rise up and walk!' and the man does. there is no wishy-washy 'well god, if you REALLY want to...' and some have argued that only THIS is praying with true faith (i am not sure yet).

or what about hezekiah, when the gospel came to him and said 'God says you are going to die.' that seems to be saying DIRECTLY what God's will is. hezekiah prays, God grants, and israel gets one of the worst kings ever in his son. there are lots of conflicting views about how that all worked, but this would support hezekiah simply saying 'well, God wants it'. and maybe that WAS the correct thing for him to do...

i think for the apostles that they already KNEW jesus wanted to heal... they had watched him do it. so maybe they just didn't need to ask if it was his will, they assumed it was.

but in that case, it would be hard to think of a justification for believing that God would not want a believer saved. 'God, save him if it is your will' doesn't seem like much of a prayer, especially with other scriptures saying that it is, in fact, his will that all should come to repentance.

it almost seems in a sense to be asking 'god, please do whatever you were going to do anyways'.

because of these objections, i do not think i understand calvinist ideas of prayer properly. but this is also why i choose salvation to discuss it, because it is a 'special' prayer that highlights these issues. but i expect that a good theology of prayer will address these issues as well.

however, at least the calvinist theology allows a way for God to 'compel' a believer, it supports a way for God to answer this prayer.


Exactly a problem with Arminianism. It is not, "If you will Lord, bring them to yourself"; It is more, "If they so will, Lord, bring them to yourself." That is man-centered and wrong.


i'm not sure such an uncharitable characterization is warranted. i'm sure that's not what they THINK they are asking. i think they DO ask 'If you will Lord, bring them to yourself" (or draw them, 'no one comes to [Jesus] unless the Father draws him', etc). but there is no available way under this theology for God to actually DO that; so while they may have some valid things they expect God to do, they can accept no promises about that person's salvation, because it would be their choice in the end, it is not God's.


I would point you to R.C. Sproul--an outstanding Calvinist teacher and author. His web address is www.ligonier.org
If I am not mistaken, he recently wrote a book on prayer. And I think the April issue of his monthly magazine, Tabletalk, was on prayer, with some great articles. They'll send you that issue free, I think, if you are a first timer to their website. You could search their catalog, and I know he has at least one book on prayer, too.


thanks, that would be a good start, i'll take a look when i can. i have a book here with the AG theology of prayer i've been meaning to read forever, comparing the two should be interesting :)

[Kenny]

Yesterday @ 10:41 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=75822#post75822)
nomad:but as a calvinist, don't you believe that the end is already ordained? i mean, if they are going to be saved, God has already decided it, and if they aren't going to be saved, then your prayer won't do anything.

My argument here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2261), which concerns itself with the relationship between Calvinism and motives for evangelism could be applied to the issue of prayer as well. Just as this argument shows that there are meaningful senses, even on a strong Calvinist view of election, in which it may be consistently held that evangelism increases the likelihood of someone’s salvation, it can be held that prayer for someone’s salvation increases the likelihood of their salvation.

Also, John Piper has a good article (http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/prayer/sovereignty_and_prayer.html) on this subject.

In Christ,
Kenny