Is being poor in America slothful?

[Steven]

Is being poor in America a sinful lack of diligence?

Consider this; most of you, your mommies and daddies have paid for your college tuition, and most of you have pretty much been spoon-fed through college. But, in your delicate circles, have you ever seen that less fortunate schmo, out in the hot sun, hammering nails or digging a ditch? Or maybe that maintenace man who walks cross-eyed down the hallway to repair your drippy sink or overflowing toilet. Or that man who stands in the hot sun directing traffic around road work, holding up the 'slow' sign. Now, clearly these jobs don't require masters degrees; most of them don't even require a high school diploma.

Let's take a moment and get to know Joe Schmo : let's say he has a family, maybe two or three kids, and has a difficult time paying bills every month.

One must ponder if this difficulty is a result of a lack of diligency? After all, he should give his family a better place to live than a cheap apartment with too few bedrooms....

Or is he just lazy and enjoys working hard under the hot sun and coming home all sunburned and never using his mind to it's full potential?

Joe Schmo probably has no life insurance, and as some pastors boast, 'life insurance is next to godliness'.

He probably does not have a savings account, because all his extra money, if any, goes to diapers, laundry soap and shoes.

This poor schmo can't even take his own wife out but maybe once a month, to MacDonalds, and diamond jewlery as gifts are replaced with rhinestone Wal-Mart specials. Forget roses and chocolates.

On a positive note, this Joe Schmo is a beliver and reads his Bible, studies it and goes to bed early because he is tired from working all day.

From what you have read and heard about poor Joe Schmo, is he living in obedience to the Word of God?

- Steven

www.informationgospel.net

[$cirisme]

What does this have to do with sin?

[Steven]

Cirisme,

So you have no opinion? I think it was a very fair, clear question. We all make judgments, some of which are not godly, and in our hearts we know how we feel about certain people, whether we indicate it publically or not. But the Lord discerns the heart, and He said 'what is done in secret shall be shouted from the rooftops.'

- Steven

[$cirisme]

Today @ 12:26 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=73349#post73349)
Steven:

Cirisme,

So you have no opinion?

Where did I say that?

I don't think this has anything to do with sin. If people are doing their bst to provide for their families, it's not sin. But if they're genuinely lazy, and are living off welfare, then yea, it is a sin.

[Steven]

Thank you for your opinion. Don't you feel better now that you got it out?

I would agree with what you said.

Steven

[Wesley's son]

Sloth is sin, not poverty

[Steven]

So, are people who are poor slothful?

Steven

[Wesley's son]

Today @ 03:08 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=73399#post73399)
Steven:

So, are people who are poor slothful?

Steven

Not always...

I my experience hard work is no guarantee for success. A lot of folks work hard but unfortunate circumstances such as a serious illness and subsequent high medical bill keep them in debt.

[Dave]

Joe Schmo makes more money by dredging and filling wetlands than I do trying to preserve them. Joe Schmo drives around in a fancy white 2003 pickup truck. Me, I'm driving a basic model Corolla that my parents helped me to pay for (and I'm paying them back).

The point is that God rewards whomever He wants to reward, however He wants to do it. Placing wealth as a measure of spirituality or worse yet favor from God is just plain stupid. If anything, wealth is a hindrance to spirituality because it is easier for us to become attached to things of this world.

Peace,
Dave

[Evangel]

joe schmo is doing exactly what God requires, hes making the best out of his situation and still growing in his love for Jesus and faith in God. Anything more i dont think is necessary.

[Steven]

I agree. Not with Joe schmo making more than you do, (and he drives a 94 minivan) but I agre that money often is a hinderance to believers and chokes out said believers.

Steven

[Steven]

The Scriptures say, those who are poor will be rich in faith, and I belive this is true. Those who are poor trust God a whole lot more than those who can fill their bellies every night.

Steven

[Sher]

04-19-2003 @ 02:02 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=73312#post73312)
Steven:

Consider this; most of you, your mommies and daddies have paid for your college tuition, and most of you have pretty much been spoon-fed through college. But, in your delicate circles, have you ever seen that less fortunate schmo, out in the hot sun, hammering nails or digging a ditch? Or maybe that maintenace man who walks cross-eyed down the hallway to repair your drippy sink or overflowing toilet. Or that man who stands in the hot sun directing traffic around road work, holding up the 'slow' sign. Now, clearly these jobs don't require masters degrees; most of them don't even require a high school diploma. IMO, this is a bit offensive. Where do you get "most of you"?
On a positive note, this Joe Schmo is a beliver and reads his Bible, studies it and goes to bed early because he is tired from working all day.

From what you have read and heard about poor Joe Schmo, is he living in obedience to the Word of God? From the little bit that you posted that actually has to do with the Word of God, I would say yes ... on that point (reading and studying his Bible).

For some, poverty isn't a choice ... no matter how hard they work. Sometimes they are the product of an inferior education with no money to get a better one ... or they have medical issues ... or there simply isn't work available that pays enough to even survive, never mind thrive.

[nomad]

i just read a book about st. francis, and he lived by the belief that if he had something his brother needed, and didn't give it to him, he was not living in love. he took this to the extreme... people were often giving him coats to keep him warm, but he never had one because he wouldn't go far without seeming some poor beggar without a coat, and he gladly gave his away.

i've been reading the philokalia too. they took the words of jesus ('sell all you own and give it to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven') quite literally.

note also though that st.francis did not condemn in any way those who did not live as he did, even those who were rich, and prohibited his monks from doing that either. he walked his own path, but did not judge anyone else for not following it. the philokalia does not condemn it either, taking care at times to point out that poverty is not an antidote for avarice; the very poor can fall into greed just as much as the very rich.

i am not there yet :) but i am impressed by their examples, and their faith.

as for the real question... i think that sloth can lead to poverty. i do not in any way think that poverty implies sloth. and i think that teachings that seem to equate material possessions with God's good graces are dangerous.

[DBoone]

Joe Schmo is a hard workin' man, not a sloth. He takes the responsibility for providing for a family seriously.

Lennon:

"A working class hero is something to be."

Incidentally, by world economic standards, he's probably in about the top 20%. Does that mean that 80% of the world are commiting the sin of slothfulness? Not likely.

Try telling the equivalent of Joe Schmo in Sudan that he just isn't working hard enough.

[Steven]

dboone,

Good point that he fits in the 20%.

Joe Schmo, in this room anyway, is either refrred to as a welfare recipient or that he has medical (ie mental) problems that 'keep him in debt'. Like Joe, I work with my own two hands, scraping out a living for my family.

blessings,

- Steven

[djnoz]

In the US, do christians (rather sadly) get judged based on their financial situation or something?

In the UK most of the judgement is rained down because of an individual's dodgy background, or the fact that they are trying to cope with a harmful addiction.... anything like that. Money rarely comes into the equation. (at least in the churches i've been to)

Threads like these show how big the culture gap is :smile:

[nomad]

it depends on the churches here as well... there is a movement in the american church (sometimes called 'name it and claim it', or for some of us the 'blab and grab' theology)... basically they say that if you have enough faith, you can have anything you want, which the bible does support. but instead of focusing this on heavenly things, it focuses on monetary stuff - big house, fancy car, etc. and since it's the amount of faith that gets you this stuff, obviously if you don't have wealth, you just must be a bad christian and not have a lot of faith, or are displeasing God somehow.

i don't know how much of the church actually believes this, but it is at least a sizeable minority. and i've never been to england, but i will bet that america is a bit more materialistic overall (i.e. outside the church as well).

it's really annoying though, because there is a truth in it, however twisted. and of course, the opposite isn't true either - just because you DON'T have wealth doesn't make you any closer to God. but issues like this tend to polarize the membership...

i can't wait until people figure out that 'wealth doesn't matter', it means exactly that - not 'having a lot of wealth matters', not 'having very little wealth matters', but 'god is not interested in how much wealth you have, you daft meathead' :)

[DBoone]

<Joe Schmo, in this room anyway, is either refrred to as a welfare recipient or that he has medical (ie mental) problems that 'keep him in debt'.>

But he is not referred to that way in the initial posting.

[Steven]

dboone,

no he's not. In fact, there is nothing to remotely suggest so...

The fact that wefare or medical problems were mentioned by repliers just shows the 'christian bias' against people who are not wealthy, or who have no formal education.

This often starts the moment our children are told that in order to have any measure of success in your life, you must go to college so you can get a 'good' job, buy a large home and eventually, when you have enough money, get married and raise a family. None of this relies on faith, it's all 'what I can do for myself'.
Now i am not against suggesting to men to find a trade they can work in to support themselves in life, but not to idolize it as this 'christian culture' so does, which produces nothing but 'it's all about me' people.

- Steven

[DBoone]

Steven -

<The fact that wefare or medical problems were mentioned by repliers just shows the 'christian' bias against people who are not wealthy, or who have no formal education.>

Some people make that assumption, even some Christians do, but I don't. So I don't see how you can call it the 'christian' bias. If I'm missing something here let me know.

<This often starts the moment our children are told that in order to have any measure of success in your life, you must go to college so you can get a 'good' job, buy a large home and eventually, when you have enough money, get married and raise a family. None of this relies on faith, it's all 'what I can do for myself'.>

This sounds more like the Almighty Dollar than the Almighty Christ. However I do believe a person should do their best, this is the aspiration to personal excellency. But I would abandon even this for the sake of Christ, so I still don't see how your generalization fits.

<Now i am not against suggesting to men to find a trade they can work in to support themselves in life, but not to idolize it as this 'christian' culture so does, which produces nothing but 'it's all about me' people.>

I'm pretty sure now that you have the terms 'christian' and 'western materialistic' mixed up. Some Christians subscribe to the Materialistic worldview, but I'm still not sure if you can suredly make the claims you do. Your viewpoint is a bias in itself.

[Steven]

dboone,

thank you for pointing that out, for that was not the intent of the post. I have corrected the single quote marks on the phrases 'christian bias' and 'christian culture'; these terms are referring to a majority but not 100%, that is true.

Blessings,

- Steven