Why Does God Harm Us...

[seer]

I have always found this idea very troubling in the Calvinist/Deterministic model. That God harms men (often severely) for doing what they can't help,for actually doing what God created them to do. Now the Calvinist usually throws Romans 9:19 at this problem. But that doesn't help me reason through the problem.

Some will also say that we can not grasp the justice of God. That His sense of justice is far removed from ours. Yet, I can not see how this is justice in any sense of the word.

[Blake Reas]

Today @ 01:56 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=73895#post73895)
seer:

I have always found this idea very troubling in the Calvinist/Deterministic model. That God harms men (often severely) for doing what they can't help,for actually doing what God created them to do. Now the Calvinist usually throws Romans 9:19 at this problem. But that doesn't help me reason through the problem.

Some will also say that we can not grasp the justice of God. That His sense of justice is far removed from ours. Yet, I can not see how this is justice in any sense of the word.

You are misunderstanding I think that you need to read the confeesions of faith. The Westminster Confession says that:

God Ordains all things but he is not responsible for evil or sin.(very rough paraphrase) The Calvinist will say that there is a great degree of Mystery with the way God works. In other words we cannot put God in a box. Also God could be working things out for the greater good. We may only see a microscopic picture of God's plan and he is working all things out towards his Glory. This is probably not an answer you will like but I really cannot help you and what is wrong with appealing with Romans 9:19? Paul does not seem to try and break it down into a logical construct!

By His Grace For His Glory
Blake

:cheers:

[seer]

....God Ordains all things but he is not responsible for evil or sin.

That seems to be a logical contradiction.


...The Calvinist will say that there is a great degree of Mystery with the way God works. In other words we cannot put God in a box.

Can we not appeal to logic and reason (to a degree) in these matters?

...This is probably not an answer you will like but I really cannot help you and what is wrong with appealing with Romans 9:19? Paul does not seem to try and break it down into a logical construct!


It's not that I like one answer over another. But what we are left with is God harming men (even eternally) for doing what they can't help. For in fact doing what God ordained them to do. And the reason I do not want to go around with Romans 9 is that Arminian scholars like Clarke do a good job of explaining this texts,from that position.

But I think that this is a serious flaw,and a blemish on God's good character. That He eternally harms men for doing what they can't help to do by nature. That He in fact harms the helpless.

[Blake Reas]

Today @ 08:38 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=74028#post74028)
seer:

....God Ordains all things but he is not responsible for evil or sin.

[quote]That seems to be a logical contradiction.

Do humans know everything there is about Logic? I think not! that is why our logic only goes so far. God is above us he knows more about the way the universe works than we do.




...The Calvinist will say that there is a great degree of Mystery with the way God works. In other words we cannot put God in a box.

Can we not appeal to logic and reason (to a degree) in these matters?

We also must be careful not to place God in a logical box that is to raise our minds above God and create an Idol. These mysteries are ultimately resolved with God. Our finite minds cannot grasp these truths completely.

...This is probably not an answer you will like but I really cannot help you and what is wrong with appealing with Romans 9:19? Paul does not seem to try and break it down into a logical construct!


It's not that I like one answer over another. But what we are left with is God harming men (even eternally) for doing what they can't help. For in fact doing what God ordained them to do. And the reason I do not want to go around with Romans 9 is that Arminian scholars like Clarke do a good job of explaining this texts,from that position.

I disagree I do not think that Arminian exegetes do justice to these text at all. I am not sure if I have not read Clarke or not is he the one who wrote Predestination an Arminian View or something like that?

But I think that this is a serious flaw,and a blemish on God's good character. That He eternally harms men for doing what they can't help to do by nature. That He in fact harms the helpless.

We do not do things against our wills. We act on our desires. It is called Compatibalism :thumb:! Anyway thanks for the conversation, I dealt with these questions about 6 months ago.

By His Grace For His Glory
Blake

[seer]

...Do humans know everything there is about Logic? I think not! that is why our logic only goes so far. God is above us he knows more about the way the universe works than we do.


True,but logical contradictions are often quite evident.


....I disagree I do not think that Arminian exegetes do justice to these text at all. I am not sure if I have not read Clarke or not is he the one who wrote Predestination an Arminian View or something like that?

I'am not sure if he wrote that. But all systems have their failings. I think the Calvinist's view of texts like 1 Tim.2:4,4:10 is quite weak. But that is my opinion.



...We do not do things against our wills. We act on our desires. It is called Compatibalism :thumb:! Anyway thanks for the conversation, I dealt with these questions about 6 months ago.

But our wills are determined by our nature,a nature we had no choice in receiving. We still have God harming the helpless.

You don't see that as a real problem?