Bethel Professor talks about similarities between Christianity and Islam.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

http://bethelnet.bethel.edu/comm-marketing/news/2004/iran.html

[bar Jonah]

Advertising? Arguing by hyperlink?

Make a case...

The two belief systems are categorically mutually exclusive. Allah is Shaitan, and Mohammed is his false prophet. What similarities are even relevant?

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Advertising? Arguing by hyperlink?

Make a case...

The two belief systems are categorically mutually exclusive. Allah is Shaitan, and Mohammed is his false prophet. What similarities are even relevant?

I don't have to argue. I can just post information.

Islam is a synthesis of Christianity and Judaism and some cultural stuff of the arab world.

The fact that there is the historical link makes it so that they do have some similarities.

In my personal interactions, I have often found myself sharing more similar views with some muslims than many of my fellow USAmericans.

dlw

[bar Jonah]

Islam is absolutely not a synthesis of Christianity and Judaism; it is a pagan religion of a tribal patron god of the Quraish tribe that predates Mohammed himself.

The fact that you consider yourself as having "more similar views with some muslims than many of my fellow USAmericans" is outright disturbing to hear from someone who purports to be a Christian. Islam is of Satan; a Christian must concede this or reject Christ altogether.

[reasonabledoubt]

RI- "Islam is of Satan; a Christian must concede this or reject Christ altogether."

You say stuff like this all the time, apparently. Factual forceful statements with no backup support. Not saying, In my opinion, Islam is of Satan. No, you state it like 2 + 2 = 4. YOu put yourself out there as the final arbiter of what God thinks is right.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Islam is absolutely not a synthesis of Christianity and Judaism; it is a pagan religion of a tribal patron god of the Quraish tribe that predates Mohammed himself.

The fact that you consider yourself as having "more similar views with some muslims than many of my fellow USAmericans" is outright disturbing to hear from someone who purports to be a Christian. Islam is of Satan; a Christian must concede this or reject Christ altogether.

My friend, CS Lewis himself is my source for the claim that Islam was a synthesis of Christianity and Judaism and I trust his judgement more than yours and my studies of the subject and interactions with muslims have confirmed this view.

Islam may be flawed, but there are many good muslims and the recent extremists do not characterize islam anymore than Christianity is characterized by Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell types.

dlw

[bar Jonah]

Flawed? It may be flawed?

The Koran explicitly states not only that Christ is not God but that Christ was not even crucified.

There cannot be a more antichrist belief in a religion than this. Without the death and resurrection of Christ, Christians are the most pitiful human beings on the face of the earth. Islam is an absolute affront to Christianity, an attack on God.

And you actually talk about C.S. Lewis as if he is an expert on Islam? :doh: As if he is an infallible source for absolute truth? Look at the Koran. Look at the infallible word of God. They are in direct opposition to each other on the single most important doctrinal truth of all.

Christ is not God, and was not crucified? To associate oneself with such a belief system or to sympathize with it in any way is to be anathema.

[reasonabledoubt]

Who are you, the Pope now? Pronouncing anathema?? Wow. Even the pope has more humility than you do. jerry Falwell does too!

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Flawed? It may be flawed?

The Koran explicitly states not only that Christ is not God but that Christ was not even crucified.

There cannot be a more antichrist belief in a religion than this. Without the death and resurrection of Christ, Christians are the most pitiful human beings on the face of the earth. Islam is an absolute affront to Christianity, an attack on God.

And you actually talk about C.S. Lewis as if he is an expert on Islam? :doh: As if he is an infallible source for absolute truth? Look at the Koran. Look at the infallible word of God. They are in direct opposition to each other on the single most important doctrinal truth of all.

Christ is not God, and was not crucified? To associate oneself with such a belief system or to sympathize with it in any way is to be anathema.

Yes, there are false statements in the Koran about who Jesus was and his life. That in no way negates the fact that it owes much to both Christianity and Judaism. Similar to how the Mormon Bible owes a lot to the KJV of the Bible, but includes stuff that is not true.

I am an inclusivist, in that I believe that there are some people who are not Christians but who have a relationship with God and will be in heaven. I believe this is possible because of Jesus' death and I am not sanguine about such prospects and still believe that we are commisioned to make disciples of all nations and that includes apologeticking against false teachings in Islam, Judaism, Roman Catholicism, Dispensationalism and others.
dlw

[bar Jonah]

I don't need to be the pope. I am simply the ambassador of Christ. What does the real "pope" -- the founder of the Body of Christ -- have to say about this? Let's see....

14And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up--if in fact the dead do not rise. 16For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed [Greek word: anathema]. 9As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed [Greek word: anathema].

[Underfire]

I don't have to argue. I can just post information.

Islam is a synthesis of Christianity and Judaism and some cultural stuff of the arab world.

The fact that there is the historical link makes it so that they do have some similarities.

In my personal interactions, I have often found myself sharing more similar views with some muslims than many of my fellow USAmericans.

dlw
Filthy Al Queda!:eek:

[Underfire]

lol

[reasonabledoubt]

RI - "I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ."

Do you actually live out and demonstrate the gospel of Christ yourself? Are you sure about that? You better watch out whom you're pronouncing accursed, when it just may be that you are the one teaching the wrong gospel.

[Underfire]

RI- "Islam is of Satan; a Christian must concede this or reject Christ altogether."

You say stuff like this all the time, apparently. Factual forceful statements with no backup support. Not saying, In my opinion, Islam is of Satan. No, you state it like 2 + 2 = 4. YOu put yourself out there as the final arbiter of what God thinks is right.
1 cent) Well Jesus said if your not for me your against me..

2 cent) There are 2 sides... God's side and the the other side... Anything on the other side is of satan.

Just my 2 cents :)

[Underfire]

My friend, CS Lewis himself is my source for the claim that Islam was a synthesis of Christianity and Judaism and I trust his judgement more than yours and my studies of the subject and interactions with muslims have confirmed this view.

Islam may be flawed, but there are many good muslims and the recent extremists do not characterize islam anymore than Christianity is characterized by Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell types.

dlw
1 cent) LOL I love CS Lewis.. But the only exhaustive authority on God .. Is God :)

2 cent) I know many "good" satanist too does that mean that we should support thier ministry? Jesus says that only God him self is good. in Luke 18.

My 2 cents again..

[Underfire]

Who are you, the Pope now? Pronouncing anathema?? Wow. Even the pope has more humility than you do. jerry Falwell does too!Thats Lameo .. Use some intellegence. Instead of insults.:lol:

[Underfire]

Yes, there are false statements in the Koran about who Jesus was and his life. That in no way negates the fact that it owes much to both Christianity and Judaism. Similar to how the Mormon Bible owes a lot to the KJV of the Bible, but includes stuff that is not true.

I am an inclusivist, in that I believe that there are some people who are not Christians but who have a relationship with God and will be in heaven. I believe this is possible because of Jesus' death and I am not sanguine about such prospects and still believe that we are commisioned to make disciples of all nations and that includes apologeticking against false teachings in Islam, Judaism, Roman Catholicism, Dispensationalism and others.
dlw
1 Cent ) How can some one enter the kingdom with out accepting Jesus' sacrifice?

2 Cent) What Jesus lying when he said "I am the way the truth and the life NOONE come unto the father but through me" John 14:6 ?

More cents :) It seem that my cents make sense :)

[Underfire]

RI - "I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ."

Do you actually live out and demonstrate the gospel of Christ yourself? Are you sure about that? You better watch out whom you're pronouncing accursed, when it just may be that you are the one teaching the wrong gospel.
I think there is reasonable doubt that he was pronouncing anyone accursed, but rather he was just quoting a scrtipture :)

[bar Jonah]

Exactly. I'm not the one who declares such a one as accursed. God does through His infallible word of truth. So don't shoot the messenger. Paul preached the gospel (good news) that Jesus is Lord and God rose Him from the dead.

Islam says Jesus is not the Lord, and wasn't crucified much less arisen.

Accursed. Anathema. To be rejected, spurned. If Islam is not evil and a lie of Satan, then Christianity is pure foolishness. Choose your side, as Jonathan said. Christ came not to unite, not to bring peace but with a sword, to divide people. And everywhere His name goes... He sows division, and rightly so. God should have no alliance with evil.

[Underfire]

Amen:)

[reasonabledoubt]

So there's no such thing as being misinformed? Everything's evil that's not according to your interpretation of Scripture? The Jewish religion is a lie from Satan?

There's no difference between an observant Jew and a Satanist?

[bar Jonah]

So there's no such thing as being misinformed? Everything's evil that's not according to your interpretation of Scripture? The Jewish religion is a lie from Satan?
Non-Messianic, contemporary Judaism? You better believe it is. Yes.

There's no difference between an observant Jew and a Satanist?
Nope. In God's eyes, no difference. They have the same exact end -- an eternity of torment in the Lake of Fire.

[Underfire]

So there's no such thing as being misinformed? Everything's evil that's not according to your interpretation of Scripture? The Jewish religion is a lie from Satan?

There's no difference between an observant Jew and a Satanist?
I think what your doing here is putting to much stock in the corporate title of the people verse the belief system.



Now any one who seeks the Lord will find him, this is a promise. Anyone who serves the Lord and loves his ways, they are not of Satan. Regardless of what that person is called. Whether they are called a Jew, Catholic, or a Muppet baby, it doesn’t matter as long as the Love the Lord with all their hear mind and soul (which would entail serving him) and love others as themselves.



God asks for a Cheese Burger!
What I mean by serving the Lord is serving him the way he wants you to. If you don’t serve the Lord the way that he instructs in the Bible then you are not serving the lord at all, you are really serving yourself.


Picture this. You drive into the drive through at Burger King and you order a Cheese burger fries and a coke. Now you drive up and pay for it. Then the guy at the window gives you a salad and says "have a great day sir" Did you order a salad? No! Who is that guy really serving? Is he serving you? No, because you asked for as cheese burger not a salad. All other religions are trying to give God a salad when he ordered a cheese burger!

[reasonabledoubt]

Underfire, I am sure RI would wholeheartedly disagree with you that "Anyone who serves the Lord and loves his ways, they are not of Satan. Regardless of what that person is called. Whether they are called a Jew, Catholic, or a Muppet baby, it doesn’t matter as long as the Love the Lord with all their hear mind and soul (which would entail serving him) and love others as themselves."

[Underfire]

"Underfire, I am sure RI would wholeheartedly disagree with you"

Yeah maybe he would.. But That is what I believe I believe that anyone doing those two things will find a true relationship with the Lord and that is what is important. That relationship will bring that person under the "right" title in due time.. Whatever that "right" title may be.



Do you disagree?





My apologies about the back to back posting.. I will try not to do it again.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

1 cent) LOL I love CS Lewis.. But the only exhaustive authority on God .. Is God :)

2 cent) I know many "good" satanist too does that mean that we should support thier ministry? Jesus says that only God him self is good. in Luke 18.

My 2 cents again..

And the point is that Islam has historically been influenced by both Christianity and Judaism.

The question is about the value-added aspect.

Acknowledging our similarities and some of our shared traditions and values is not the same thing as supporting their ministry.

dlw

[Underfire]

Agreed. But what purpose does acknowledging our similarities serve?

[Da Lone-Warrior]

1 Cent ) How can some one enter the kingdom with out accepting Jesus' sacrifice?

2 Cent) What Jesus lying when he said "I am the way the truth and the life NOONE come unto the father but through me" John 14:6 ?

More cents :) It seem that my cents make sense :)

Cultural stuff above and beyond our individual control that prevents someone from becoming a Christian, but doesn't prevent them from having a relationship with God. It is because of Jesus's death that this is possible.

I believe there are threads on inclusivism vs. exclusivism elsewhere. Needless to say, C.S. Lewis, our mutual friend, was an inclusivist.
dlw

[bar Jonah]

Any similarities were a result of Mohammed incorporating minimal aspects of Christianity and Judaism at times when he was not powerful enough to go to war with them, thus having to live peacefully near them. It was purely geo-political. Once he had gained more power, the war was on and he would have slit your throat himself.

[bar Jonah]

LW, surely you are not suggesting that a person can know of Christ and not accept Him and still have a relationship with God????

That is beyond inclusivism. I am an inclusivist.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Agreed. But what purpose does acknowledging our similarities serve?

It promotes reconciliation and reconciliation promotes better personal relations and opportunities for both sides to share about their faiths with the other.

dlw

[Da Lone-Warrior]

LW, surely you are not suggesting that a person can know of Christ and not accept Him and still have a relationship with God????

That is beyond inclusivism. I am an inclusivist.

I think that if what someone knows of Christ is warped by many centuries of Christian leadership being anti-semitic and oppressive or other cultural stuff stemming from the fallenness of the world, they may not become Christians but still have a relationship with God.

If they're able to get the Gospel message shorn of the cultural baggage so often ladened on it then the choice would be up to them and have eternal consequences, but I don't think people get the Gospel message that way.

dlw

[Underfire]

Cultural stuff above and beyond our individual control that prevents someone from becoming a Christian, but doesn't prevent them from having a relationship with God. It is because of Jesus's death that this is possible.

I believe there are threads on inclusivism vs. exclusivism elsewhere. Needless to say, C.S. Lewis, our mutual friend, was an inclusivist.
dlw
Maybe your definition of Christian is different than mine. How would you define Christianity?

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Why don't you tell me your def'n first and then I'll think about it and tell you mine?

dlw

[Underfire]

LOL, No. Maybe you can see what the danger is of throwing a word around. Ill give you some time to think about it, then after you state your definition if you so wish I will post mine.

God bless,

[reasonabledoubt]

Is it not frighteningly unfair that this new life should be confined to people who have heard of Christ and been able to believe in Him? But the truth is God has not told us what His arrangements about the other people are. We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him. (Mere Christianity, 64)

There are people in other religions who are being led by God’s secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Christianity, and who thus belong to Christ without knowing it. (Mere Christianity, 209)

I think that every prayer which is sincerely made even to a false god or to a very imperfectly conceived true God, is accepted by the true God and that Christ saves many who do not think they know Him. (Letters of C. S. Lewis, 428)

Now I know C.S. Lewis' books are not in the Canon, but neither are RI's works. RI and CS Lewis are equally equipped to read the same Bible and come to different conclusions. I happen to side with CS Lewis- I have no reason to think the RI's interpretation is superior to Lewis'.

[Underfire]

I like CS Lewis also, but I would not quote him as if it were cannon.

I trust the holy spirit to teach me the word of God, I try not to look to another mans interpretation as "gospel"

[reasonabledoubt]

Uh, go back up there and read what I wrote. I said specifically that his works were NOT in the canon. And thusly I am not quoting his words as gospel. I am saying I agree with his interpretation as opposed to RI's.

[Underfire]

I know :) I just wanted to agree with you ;)

[Underfire]

What do I know im just a freshman :) Why dont you give me a swirly that will shut me up :) LOL