PDA

View Full Version : Church Experience VS. Biblical Exegesis


Steven
April 23rd 2003, 10:42 PM
Church Experience VS. Biblical Exegesis

In our Christian experience, have we lost the ability to communicate with God and His people? Has fellowship with The Church, the Body of Christ become distant, shallow and relgious? I hope the following article helps to clear out the 'stale Peeps' of religion. Be warned, this article may contain offensive truths and may be hazardous in some extreme, relgious cases. If you find yourself as one of these cases, please step away from the monitor, take several deep breaths and abstain from Stigmatized Name-Calling Reflex Disease.

Thank you,

- Steven

The term 'the Church', capitalized, is THE Church, or the Body of Christ. It appears that The Church is scattered abroad, but is doing the will of the Father. The 'modern-day church', however, is what is located, in most occasions, on the corner of every city block across America, 300 feet away from a liquor store. The ‘modern-day church’ is a termI use for what the Bible refers to as ‘the false brethren’, or 'false church', those who strive to ensnare the children of God into bondage. (Gal. 2:4)

It would be ignorant and presumptuous of me to simply rule that the church on the street corner IS the modern-day church, or that we should have nothing to do with them by a mere outward appearance. We know that everything must to be tested by and through the Holy Scriptures; once the church in question is tested by the Scriptures, you can make an informed judgment as to whether or not it is part of the modern-day church.

"But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Then understood they that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees." Matthew 16:11-12

" Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. " Matthew 7:15-20

I find it interesting that the modern-day church generally sticks to sound terminology, unlike the cults that basically unravel when it comes to doctrinal truth, such as Jesus being God or that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. Generally the cults and occult are open and passionate about their false teaching once you corner them with the Holy doctrine of God. The modern-day church, on the other hand, is much more sinister in it’s attempt to deceive. The closer the false church can get to the truth, without actually telling the truth, the more deceptive it is.

For example, if I ask the cults Question #1: "Do you teach and preach from the Bible?", both of the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons would initially say "YES!" However, when cornered after some debate, the Mormons will refer to their Book of Mormon as their 'bible', and the JWs will look at all issues of 'the Watchtower' as their source of absolute doctrine

But the modern-day church is not be so easily detected by a simple response. They would respond correctly to this question; they would say 'Absolutely!'. In most cases, there is no good fruit to back up this answer, however, it's just a simple, normal reply to stay in the standard of Christendom.

Let me explain: there are certain portions of the Bible that the modern-day church cuts out, so to speak, of their doctrine; here is an example:

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Mtt. 22:36-39

Jesus uses the term 'love' here not as a vague definition but as a specific command to love completely; heart, soul and mind encompasses every part of you, to be committed to Christ as Lord, as Master and we as mere servants of the Master.

The modern-day church has a very vague, non-specific and human-relationship meaning of love, and we all know that human relationships are easily broken. The modern-day church will refer to love and how much they love to infinitum, but they miss the depth and richness of Love purposely, to taint the power of what Love really is. For, the ultimate demonstration and definition of Love was portrayed on the Cross, when Christ sacrificed Himself for the atonement of all our sins.

"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

This second command the modern-day church ignores in several ways, but one in particular stands out to me as flagrant:

90% of the modern-day church's budget is spent on buildings and salaries, while a majority of the world has not heard the gospel and a third of the world is slowly starving to death or is in grave poverty. Even in our own nation of America, the widows and the fatherless are not reached out to by the modern-day church.

This is quite opposite of how Christ lived, whom is our example; he had no place on earth to call home, and he comforted the poor, meeting physical needs and spiritual. In His three years of ministry, having none of the modern-day church’s material possessions, He was still somehow able to demonstrate Love, and in the ultimate way.

Question #2: "Do you believe that Jesus is Lord?"

The cults deny that Jesus is Lord, according to Biblical terminology.

The modern-day church refers to Jesus as being Lord, but in their actions and in various teachings also deny that He is Lord. The modern-day church has re-packaged and re-defined the Lordship of Christ into simple belief, which is really non-belief but is just affirmation, signing of contracts, verbal agreements, cheap promises and vague demonstrations of 'love'. All this is to magnify their own profits and numbers. The math is simple, you take out the lordship and obedience to Christ and your church buildings suddenly fill up, tithes pour in; the pastoral staff can publicly announce new converts and claim stake in ministries they don't even labor in.

But, the Lordship of Christ, requires much more than this:

"20. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Mth. 5:20

This righteousness is not an external righteousness, but is one of the heart; it is a gift from God, impossible for human beings to have apart from Him.

The modern-day church is most adequately described by this verse:

"For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.

3. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." (Rom. 10:3&4)

The modern-day church may do many works, which the moral attributes of such may be good, but this accolade can also be wrung out upon the cults whose 'moralism' far outweighs the modern-day church's. This is an attempt at external righteousness, or 'good works' but falls short and misses the mark of what God demands in the verses above: internal righteousness. The modern-day church loves 'outward circumcision', but will not stand for the circumcision of the heart.

"circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God. " Rom. 2:29

"Circumcision is nothing and un-circumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts." 1 Cor. 7:19

The term 'Jesus is Lord', refers to Lordship, or 'is the Lord over', as in obeying the commandments of your Lord. In the 16th century, a servant would not dare to go to the King of the land, his Lord, and not do what he was told to do. Such an action would have cost him his life.

"And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep his commandments.

4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him.

6. He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked." (1 John 2:3-6)

Question #3: Do you currently have a men's Bible study that meets on a weekly basis?

We see in Jesus' ministry, his love for the brethren. I find it more than interesting and sad that the modern-day church has pretended to be brethren, and yet the very foundation of the church is centered around the men gathering together in the Word. The modern-day church has set up all kinds of ministries and activities, but has neglected the men meeting together in the Word on a regular basis.

Jesus did not gather around him twelve women to be his disciples. Jesus spent time with his brethren, eating with them, teaching them; women may have been present, but His disciples were the authority of His Body. It was through a man that sin passed into the world, and it was through one man, that was also God, that all men's sin became void. Christ himself came as a man, and the precepts of the Scriptures were written down by men, through the power of God. The church was founded by men, through Christ and was ruled over by men, through Christ. I do not mean to negate the importance of men and women meeting together to learn the Scriptures, I am simply pointing out what is most important.

I also find it interesting that when a simple question is asked: ‘do you have a men's group that meets regularly?’ The modern-day church's response is 'no' or 'not yet'.

The question back to that response is: By what authority does the modern-day church meet together against the pattern and precepts laid down by God in the Holy Scriptures?

The answer is: by no authority. The very lack of men meeting together shows a lack of leadership after the pattern Christ set down, and that the authority has been passed over to the women.

"12. As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them." Isaiah 3:12

This lack of men meeting together also shows a lack of Love, and disobedience to the Scriptures, which is the fruit of the modern day church.

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 11. For this is the message which ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another: 12. not as Cain was of the evil one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his works were evil, and his brother's righteous. Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. 14. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 16. Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17. But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 18. My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.19. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." (1 John 3:10-19)

This love is not only to meet the physical needs of men and their families but is spiritual as men being the head of their homes. The very fact that the brethren don't meet together is a sure sign that there is no witness or testimony of God's love in the congregation.

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." (John 17:21)

You may ask,' well what is unity of the brethren'? It is Spiritual unity:

"Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!" Psalms 133:1

The true test of the fellowship of a congregation is, do they obey the command of Love? Jesus defined Love:

"If you love me, you will obey what I command. ", John 14:15

"23. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." 1 John 3:23

The modern day church lacks the substance of sound doctrine and thus lacks immunity to the diseases of false doctrine. As the Scripture says:

"The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

6. Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. " 1 timothy 1:5-6

The modern-day church communicates in religious voracity and continually gossips and tears down the Church, the elect; the modern-day church is a continual offence against the Gospel of Christ being preached by besmirching a brother's character or merely creating lies off partial truths or fully fabricating in order to stop the gospel of Christ from going forth. Such terms as 'bible beating' or 'being preachy' or 'bible bashing', 'too heavenly minded and no earthly good' , 'you're judgmental', 'you need to love more' are pet phrases that the modern-day church uses against true believers, to condemn and un-righteously judge; these phrases are most often are not in Scripture at all, but are used as Scripture to convey some self-righteous point. There are also those in the modern-day church who will use pieces and portions of Scripture with reckless abandon, out of context, to justify or condemn others.

This is all an attempt by the false church to break the unity and fellowship in Christ that we so deeply desire as The Church.

"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus,

20. by the way which He dedicated for us, a new and living way, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh;

21. and having a great priest over the house of God;

22. let us draw near with a true heart in fullness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience: and having our body washed with pure water,

23. let us hold fast the confession of our hope that it waver not; for He is faithful that promised:

24. and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works;

25. not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another; and so much the more, as ye see the day drawing nigh." Hebrews

The modern-day church generally meets together on Saturday or Sunday in a religious, outward appearance, but neglects to have the brethren meet together, thus annulling this commandment: "... not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another...."

" He that saith he is in the light and hateth his brother, is in the darkness even until now.

10. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is no occasion of stumbling in him.

11. But he that hateth his brother is in the darkness, and walketh in the darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because the darkness hath blinded his eyes." 1 John 2:9-11

The modern-day church hates Christ and His Church, His bride.

Question: #4, 5, 6, 7 - The ‘preach the gospel’ questions:

Do you preach the gospel publicly, regularly?

The answer to this from the cults is a resounding ‘YES’, for their ‘salvation’ rests in how many converts they can claim, or how many miles they walked or bicycled in order to win souls.

The modern-day church says, and as one pastor responded so poetically:

"No, it would be a waste of time in this culture, at this time."

The modern-day church considers preaching anywhere but the Sunday pulpit an offense, and the even the idea goes contrary to their corporate image and would eventually risk the tithe intake, which is the ‘holy of holies’ of the modern-day church. However, there are a few exceptions; sometimes the modern-day church will send their youth groups out in an aggressive campaign to advertise the modern-day church.

The modern-day church is very like Demetrius the Silversmith, who realized that his craft of making idols was jeopardized by Paul the Apostle’s preaching:
Acts 19:24-28

The false church, through gossip and lies discovers an individual who preaches the gospel and threatens their control and wealth; they become wrathful and incite confusion among their own members and encourage actions against the those who preach and teach from the Word of God, sometimes under guise of prayer.

Three things which the modern day church holds dear were effected by Paul preaching the gospel: one was the wealth, one was idols made with hands and one was the temple; these things go hand in hand. The modern-day church takes their terminology out of the Scriptures and tries to make them fit into these three things.

The temple is an equivalent to the modern day church’s buildings and material property; this building or place of worship becomes so important that all is sacrificed to obtain and maintain it. It becomes an idol made with hands. The craft spoken of is the religious deception which produces their income or wealth; and like the workmen in these Scriptures, the modern-day church, because the headship of Godly men and husbands have been removed, they all unify around feminism, described in the Scriptures as the goddess diana, who coincidentally is the goddess of the hunt.

The Gospel speaks the Truth of the Word, which drives out this deception and confusion, and the gospel does not build a home on this earth but speaks of Heaven and the riches and rewards of faithful servitude that await His children after this life is over.

The modern-day church continually takes their talents and buries them into the things of this earth, for their own glory.

The Gospel of Christ takes the fruit and multiplies it for the Kingdom, for the glory of God.

The modern-day church speaks of human wisdom, human ideas and human ways to solve things. "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect" 1 Corinthians 1:17

The Gospel preaches "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent." 1 Corinthians 1:18&19

1 Cor. 1:23-25

The modern-day church prides itself in their good looks, education and place of status. The modern-day church continually polishes it’s worship services and masters the art of emotional deceit in it’s sermons, wrapping the meaning around arousal of the five senses.

The Church, the Body of Christ, continually stands as a broken and contrite vessel before the Lord, before the God of Creation, seeking forgiveness and being granted sonship.

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28. And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29. That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31. That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1 Corinth. 1:26-31

Question #8: Do you preach topically or verse by verse or both?

The modern-day church and the cults tend to merge in this point: they both at times can preach topically and verse by verse, and they both enjoy changing the meaning, adding to or taking away from the text. Although the cults will often refer to books and manuscripts written by their own particular cult, the modern-day church is a little more open-minded in that it looks to psychiatrists, psychologists, authors or marital counselors to interpret the Bible for them. Both cults and modern-day churches use the name of the Scriptures as a continual back-drop for a lot of what they say and do, but used in a poetic sense.

The modern-day church specializes in the art of being able to take from a verse the ‘positive’ aspects and mis-apply them purposefully to gloss over ‘negative’ aspects, excusing themselves. Then, with the same wicked craftiness, the modern-day church takes and applies the 'negative' aspects to the real Church, the elect, accusing them in an attempt to besmirch, bring shame and condemnation on them.

Romans 2:13-15

The most volatile and extreme wickedness is the modern-day church’s ability to move so close to Scriptural truth and yet stay far away from it. It is so close that it is very difficult to tell where good doctrine ends and bad doctrine begins; the modern-day church is gifted in blending the two together to make it all sound just fine, resulting in confusion.

As Dr. Walter Martin so eloquently said: "It’s the skin of the Truth, stuffed with a lie."

In order to determine where the lie begins, it take a lot of study of the Scriptures, hard work and patience to wait for the fruits of bad doctrine to appear. Unlike the cults, where you may be able to determine their bad doctrine within one or two meetings, it may take months or even years to root out the bad doctrines in the modern-day church and the false teachers that lead it.

Question # 9: What passion has God put in your heart for His people:

The modern-day church’s general response to this question is a specific response with a non-specific action.

For example: Jesus spoke of a parable of a man who had two sons;

" What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, `Son, go and work today in the vineyard.'

29. "`I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

30. "Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, `I will, sir,' but he did not go.

The modern-day church responds ‘Yes sir I will do that.", but has no fruit to back up the words. Their passion is wrapped up in their specific answer; they will spout all day about how they love Jesus, but they will not obey His commandments. These are workers of iniquity.

The Church, the Body of Christ’s passion is wrapped up in their actions and obedience to Christ.

"Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.

16. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?

17. In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.


This demonstration of faith accompanied by works is the passion that comes only from Christ, for His people; it produced good works in righteousness which leads towards faith in Christ others, who see these works and give glory to Christ.

The modern-day church focuses on faith, without works that it may give glory to itself, which produces a false faith and false converts about whom they so arrogantly boast over their pulpits.

Read the entire article at:

www.informationgospel.net/find_churches.htm

- Steven

Pilgrim
April 24th 2003, 10:47 AM
And you make the judgement call by yourself?

Solly
April 24th 2003, 10:49 AM
Did you read all that Pilgrim? I took one look at the size and moved on. Life is too short.

Pilgrim
April 24th 2003, 10:51 AM
Most of it. It sounds to me like someone who was bitten by a church somewhere and resents all churches now. Or someone who wants to live outside the bounds of accountability and discipline.

scripscan
April 24th 2003, 11:03 AM
:idea: Something to think about......

nomad
April 24th 2003, 11:43 AM
did i miss something?

yeah, that was way too long to read, but from the little bit i read, this seems more like 'christians aren't doing what they are supposed to'. well, i agree with that.

i was expecting something on biblical exegesis vs. church tradition or something. i feel misled :)

maybe i'll start a thread on that just for the heck of it.

Pilgrim
April 24th 2003, 02:55 PM
Yes it was a little bit thin on the "exegesis" portion wasn't it?

Jaltus
April 24th 2003, 04:52 PM
Frankly, the pole had nothing to do with the article. If it were not for the pole, I'd move this thread to Theology 102.

Steven
April 25th 2003, 12:17 AM
We have all heard personal opinions to the point of Ad Nauseum. :duh: We can all babble on about our exclusive feelings and feminized advice, :ddw: and continue in our religious voracity all day long, I suppose.

But, can anyone prove or disprove my point from the Scriptures?

After all, this is the Biblical Exigesis Room, is it not? :bonk: Perhaps I chose the wrong site to seek mature, Biblical comments. If you are a man, and not a mere, screaming, snot-nosed infant, :bawl: then step up to the plate and prove that your comments are not just idle chat, by the Scriptures. :read: The rest of you can write home to your mommies and say that you've been 'persecuted' this week... :no:

On the Day of Judgement every Idle word will be accounted for.

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Matt. 12:36

Thank you, I hope I have been supportive in your christian endeavor. :thumb:

- Steven

www.informationgospel.net

www.informationgospel.net/find_churches

Woman
April 25th 2003, 12:34 AM
Steven:
We can all babble on about our exclusive feelings and feminized advice,

What does this mean?

quetzalphoenix
April 25th 2003, 01:46 AM
Woman,
I think it means, 'helpmates,' ask your male covenant heads about the Bible. (I wouldn't imagine 'helping' extends much past with the dishes and children...):argh:

See his website...
http://www.informationgospel.net/Helpmate.htm

also interesting...
http://www.informationgospel.net/the_gospel_or_the_wife.htm

Secretary of Education - Colin the Cat
April 25th 2003, 05:12 AM
This guy reminds me of the Mormons. He sure can spout scripture and sure has the self-righteousness down pat, but did the Word warn us to not bother answering silly things like this? What's the whole summary of this mentally exhausting article? Well, I;ll answer the questions one by one for posterity's sake.

Question #1: "Do you teach and preach from the Bible?", both of the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons would initially say "YES!" However, when cornered after some debate, the Mormons will refer to their Book of Mormon as their 'bible', and the JWs will look at all issues of 'the Watchtower' as their source of absolute doctrine

But the modern-day church is not be so easily detected by a simple response. They would respond correctly to this question; they would say 'Absolutely!'. In most cases, there is no good fruit to back up this answer, however, it's just a simple, normal reply to stay in the standard of Christendom.

Let me explain: there are certain portions of the Bible that the modern-day church cuts out, so to speak, of their doctrine; here is an example:

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Mtt. 22:36-39

Jesus uses the term 'love' here not as a vague definition but as a specific command to love completely; heart, soul and mind encompasses every part of you, to be committed to Christ as Lord, as Master and we as mere servants of the Master.

The modern-day church has a very vague, non-specific and human-relationship meaning of love, and we all know that human relationships are easily broken. The modern-day church will refer to love and how much they love to infinitum, but they miss the depth and richness of Love purposely, to taint the power of what Love really is. For, the ultimate demonstration and definition of Love was portrayed on the Cross, when Christ sacrificed Himself for the atonement of all our sins.

"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

This second command the modern-day church ignores in several ways, but one in particular stands out to me as flagrant:

90% of the modern-day church's budget is spent on buildings and salaries, while a majority of the world has not heard the gospel and a third of the world is slowly starving to death or is in grave poverty. Even in our own nation of America, the widows and the fatherless are not reached out to by the modern-day church.

This is quite opposite of how Christ lived, whom is our example; he had no place on earth to call home, and he comforted the poor, meeting physical needs and spiritual. In His three years of ministry, having none of the modern-day church’s material possessions, He was still somehow able to demonstrate Love, and in the ultimate way.

A ridiculous question IMO. Of course we preach from the Bible. And love for our fellow man marks our church. As far as salaries go, so what? What percentage of the sacrifice at the temple went to the priests and Levites? You have no right to question what a church leadership does with the tithes brought in.

Act 4:36 Now Joseph, a Levite of Cyprian birth, who was also called Barnabas by the apostles (which translated means Son of Encouragement),
Act 4:37 and who owned a tract of land, sold it and brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Barnabas had no say where the money went after that. The apostles were responsible once the offering was made. No one questioned what they did with it. And neither should you.

Question #2: "Do you believe that Jesus is Lord?"

The cults deny that Jesus is Lord, according to Biblical terminology.

The modern-day church refers to Jesus as being Lord, but in their actions and in various teachings also deny that He is Lord. The modern-day church has re-packaged and re-defined the Lordship of Christ into simple belief, which is really non-belief but is just affirmation, signing of contracts, verbal agreements, cheap promises and vague demonstrations of 'love'. All this is to magnify their own profits and numbers. The math is simple, you take out the lordship and obedience to Christ and your church buildings suddenly fill up, tithes pour in; the pastoral staff can publicly announce new converts and claim stake in ministries they don't even labor in.

But, the Lordship of Christ, requires much more than this:

"20. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Mth. 5:20

This righteousness is not an external righteousness, but is one of the heart; it is a gift from God, impossible for human beings to have apart from Him.

The modern-day church is most adequately described by this verse:

"For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.

3. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." (Rom. 10:3&4)

The modern-day church may do many works, which the moral attributes of such may be good, but this accolade can also be wrung out upon the cults whose 'moralism' far outweighs the modern-day church's. This is an attempt at external righteousness, or 'good works' but falls short and misses the mark of what God demands in the verses above: internal righteousness. The modern-day church loves 'outward circumcision', but will not stand for the circumcision of the heart.

"circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God. " Rom. 2:29

"Circumcision is nothing and un-circumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts." 1 Cor. 7:19

The term 'Jesus is Lord', refers to Lordship, or 'is the Lord over', as in obeying the commandments of your Lord. In the 16th century, a servant would not dare to go to the King of the land, his Lord, and not do what he was told to do. Such an action would have cost him his life.

"And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep his commandments.

4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him.

6. He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked." (1 John 2:3-6)

Yep. Jesus is Lord. I stress to those I minister to that Jesus must be Lord and Savior, not one or the other. And by the way, do you keep His commandments every minute of your life? Do you stop at every disabled car and offer help? Do you go to your homeless shelter every day and give all your possessions to them? If you own 1 thing, you are not following a direct command of Jesus (Mar 10:21)

Question #3: Do you currently have a men's Bible study that meets on a weekly basis?

We see in Jesus' ministry, his love for the brethren. I find it more than interesting and sad that the modern-day church has pretended to be brethren, and yet the very foundation of the church is centered around the men gathering together in the Word. The modern-day church has set up all kinds of ministries and activities, but has neglected the men meeting together in the Word on a regular basis.

Jesus did not gather around him twelve women to be his disciples. Jesus spent time with his brethren, eating with them, teaching them; women may have been present, but His disciples were the authority of His Body. It was through a man that sin passed into the world, and it was through one man, that was also God, that all men's sin became void. Christ himself came as a man, and the precepts of the Scriptures were written down by men, through the power of God. The church was founded by men, through Christ and was ruled over by men, through Christ. I do not mean to negate the importance of men and women meeting together to learn the Scriptures, I am simply pointing out what is most important.

I also find it interesting that when a simple question is asked: ‘do you have a men's group that meets regularly?’ The modern-day church's response is 'no' or 'not yet'.

The question back to that response is: By what authority does the modern-day church meet together against the pattern and precepts laid down by God in the Holy Scriptures?

The answer is: by no authority. The very lack of men meeting together shows a lack of leadership after the pattern Christ set down, and that the authority has been passed over to the women.

"12. As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them." Isaiah 3:12

This lack of men meeting together also shows a lack of Love, and disobedience to the Scriptures, which is the fruit of the modern day church.

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 11. For this is the message which ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another: 12. not as Cain was of the evil one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his works were evil, and his brother's righteous. Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. 14. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 16. Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17. But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 18. My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.19. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." (1 John 3:10-19)

This love is not only to meet the physical needs of men and their families but is spiritual as men being the head of their homes. The very fact that the brethren don't meet together is a sure sign that there is no witness or testimony of God's love in the congregation.

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." (John 17:21)

You may ask,' well what is unity of the brethren'? It is Spiritual unity:

"Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!" Psalms 133:1

The true test of the fellowship of a congregation is, do they obey the command of Love? Jesus defined Love:

"If you love me, you will obey what I command. ", John 14:15

"23. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." 1 John 3:23

The modern day church lacks the substance of sound doctrine and thus lacks immunity to the diseases of false doctrine. As the Scripture says:

"The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

6. Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. " 1 timothy 1:5-6

The modern-day church communicates in religious voracity and continually gossips and tears down the Church, the elect; the modern-day church is a continual offence against the Gospel of Christ being preached by besmirching a brother's character or merely creating lies off partial truths or fully fabricating in order to stop the gospel of Christ from going forth. Such terms as 'bible beating' or 'being preachy' or 'bible bashing', 'too heavenly minded and no earthly good' , 'you're judgmental', 'you need to love more' are pet phrases that the modern-day church uses against true believers, to condemn and un-righteously judge; these phrases are most often are not in Scripture at all, but are used as Scripture to convey some self-righteous point. There are also those in the modern-day church who will use pieces and portions of Scripture with reckless abandon, out of context, to justify or condemn others.

This is all an attempt by the false church to break the unity and fellowship in Christ that we so deeply desire as The Church.

"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus,

20. by the way which He dedicated for us, a new and living way, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh;

21. and having a great priest over the house of God;

22. let us draw near with a true heart in fullness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience: and having our body washed with pure water,

23. let us hold fast the confession of our hope that it waver not; for He is faithful that promised:

24. and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works;

25. not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another; and so much the more, as ye see the day drawing nigh." Hebrews

The modern-day church generally meets together on Saturday or Sunday in a religious, outward appearance, but neglects to have the brethren meet together, thus annulling this commandment: "... not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another...."

" He that saith he is in the light and hateth his brother, is in the darkness even until now.

10. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is no occasion of stumbling in him.

11. But he that hateth his brother is in the darkness, and walketh in the darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because the darkness hath blinded his eyes." 1 John 2:9-11

The modern-day church hates Christ and His Church, His bride.

You must be kidding right? Nowhere in the Bible are women forbidden from meeting with the men. You are a chauvinist pig if you think it does. All the churches around my area have a Wed or Thurs Bible Study night.

Question: #4, 5, 6, 7 - The ‘preach the gospel’ questions:

Do you preach the gospel publicly, regularly?

The answer to this from the cults is a resounding ‘YES’, for their ‘salvation’ rests in how many converts they can claim, or how many miles they walked or bicycled in order to win souls.

The modern-day church says, and as one pastor responded so poetically:

"No, it would be a waste of time in this culture, at this time."

The modern-day church considers preaching anywhere but the Sunday pulpit an offense, and the even the idea goes contrary to their corporate image and would eventually risk the tithe intake, which is the ‘holy of holies’ of the modern-day church. However, there are a few exceptions; sometimes the modern-day church will send their youth groups out in an aggressive campaign to advertise the modern-day church.

The modern-day church is very like Demetrius the Silversmith, who realized that his craft of making idols was jeopardized by Paul the Apostle’s preaching:
Acts 19:24-28

The false church, through gossip and lies discovers an individual who preaches the gospel and threatens their control and wealth; they become wrathful and incite confusion among their own members and encourage actions against the those who preach and teach from the Word of God, sometimes under guise of prayer.

Three things which the modern day church holds dear were effected by Paul preaching the gospel: one was the wealth, one was idols made with hands and one was the temple; these things go hand in hand. The modern-day church takes their terminology out of the Scriptures and tries to make them fit into these three things.

The temple is an equivalent to the modern day church’s buildings and material property; this building or place of worship becomes so important that all is sacrificed to obtain and maintain it. It becomes an idol made with hands. The craft spoken of is the religious deception which produces their income or wealth; and like the workmen in these Scriptures, the modern-day church, because the headship of Godly men and husbands have been removed, they all unify around feminism, described in the Scriptures as the goddess diana, who coincidentally is the goddess of the hunt.

The Gospel speaks the Truth of the Word, which drives out this deception and confusion, and the gospel does not build a home on this earth but speaks of Heaven and the riches and rewards of faithful servitude that await His children after this life is over.

The modern-day church continually takes their talents and buries them into the things of this earth, for their own glory.

The Gospel of Christ takes the fruit and multiplies it for the Kingdom, for the glory of God.

The modern-day church speaks of human wisdom, human ideas and human ways to solve things. "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect" 1 Corinthians 1:17

The Gospel preaches "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent." 1 Corinthians 1:18&19

1 Cor. 1:23-25

The modern-day church prides itself in their good looks, education and place of status. The modern-day church continually polishes it’s worship services and masters the art of emotional deceit in it’s sermons, wrapping the meaning around arousal of the five senses.

The Church, the Body of Christ, continually stands as a broken and contrite vessel before the Lord, before the God of Creation, seeking forgiveness and being granted sonship.

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28. And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29. That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31. That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1 Corinth. 1:26-31

We sponsor a missionary to the nation of Guyana who came from our church. Do you sponsor a missionary personally? We also have “sidewalk Sunday school” regularly in our neighborhoods.

Question #8: Do you preach topically or verse by verse or both?

The modern-day church and the cults tend to merge in this point: they both at times can preach topically and verse by verse, and they both enjoy changing the meaning, adding to or taking away from the text. Although the cults will often refer to books and manuscripts written by their own particular cult, the modern-day church is a little more open-minded in that it looks to psychiatrists, psychologists, authors or marital counselors to interpret the Bible for them. Both cults and modern-day churches use the name of the Scriptures as a continual back-drop for a lot of what they say and do, but used in a poetic sense.

The modern-day church specializes in the art of being able to take from a verse the ‘positive’ aspects and mis-apply them purposefully to gloss over ‘negative’ aspects, excusing themselves. Then, with the same wicked craftiness, the modern-day church takes and applies the 'negative' aspects to the real Church, the elect, accusing them in an attempt to besmirch, bring shame and condemnation on them.

Romans 2:13-15

The most volatile and extreme wickedness is the modern-day church’s ability to move so close to Scriptural truth and yet stay far away from it. It is so close that it is very difficult to tell where good doctrine ends and bad doctrine begins; the modern-day church is gifted in blending the two together to make it all sound just fine, resulting in confusion.

As Dr. Walter Martin so eloquently said: "It’s the skin of the Truth, stuffed with a lie."

In order to determine where the lie begins, it take a lot of study of the Scriptures, hard work and patience to wait for the fruits of bad doctrine to appear. Unlike the cults, where you may be able to determine their bad doctrine within one or two meetings, it may take months or even years to root out the bad doctrines in the modern-day church and the false teachers that lead it.

How did Jesus preach? He did both. He also just talked to the people and interacted with them right where they were.

Question # 9: What passion has God put in your heart for His people:

The modern-day church’s general response to this question is a specific response with a non-specific action.

For example: Jesus spoke of a parable of a man who had two sons;

" What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, `Son, go and work today in the vineyard.'

29. "`I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

30. "Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, `I will, sir,' but he did not go.

The modern-day church responds ‘Yes sir I will do that.", but has no fruit to back up the words. Their passion is wrapped up in their specific answer; they will spout all day about how they love Jesus, but they will not obey His commandments. These are workers of iniquity.

The Church, the Body of Christ’s passion is wrapped up in their actions and obedience to Christ.

"Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.

16. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?

17. In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. See comment above about our missionary. What I think you fail to see is that there are MANY churches out there that don’t have multi-million dollar facilities and who do live by the 5 fold ministry model. There was a balance in the early church of evangelism and teaching. You seem to lean too heavily on getting the sinner saved and want nothing to do with nurturing ALL saints, just the men.

Solly
April 25th 2003, 05:42 AM
Today @ 04:17 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78099#post78099)
Steven:

We have all heard personal opinions to the point of Ad Nauseum. We can all babble on about our exclusive feelings and feminized advice, and continue in our religious voracity all day long, I suppose.

--your tone is offensive

But, can anyone prove or disprove my point from the Scriptures?

--make a proper case, from the scriptures, not cut and pasting your own emascultate conceptions (Yes, I have been to your website - at least you don't appear to be a cult or sect, according to your tenets of faith)

After all, this is the Biblical Exigesis Room, is it not? Perhaps I chose the wrong site to seek mature, Biblical comments. If you are a man, and not a mere, screaming, snot-nosed infant, then step up to the plate and prove that your comments are not just idle chat, by the Scriptures. The rest of you can write home to your mommies and say that you've been 'persecuted' this week...

--Act in a mature fashion yourself, and you might get a response. Your post was far too long, the rules quite clearly specify that one or two points should be made, that they can be addressed. If anybody has a persecution complex, it appears to be yourself, from you own reaction.

On the Day of Judgement every Idle word will be accounted for.

--you mean like

babble on about our exclusive feelings and feminized advice
If you are a man, and not a mere, screaming, snot-nosed infant
write home to your mommies and say that you've been 'persecuted' this week


Thank you, I hope I have been supportive in your christian endeavor.

--No, you haven't.

Steven
April 26th 2003, 04:02 PM
to all replies: the point of posting the article here was to get a Biblical reply either proving or disproving through thought and contextual study of the Scriptures.

Addressing some of your questions:

I do hold to the tenets of faith and the divine inspiration of the Scriptures, from which all sound doctrine resonates; the mormons, jehovans witnesses, etc do not. They rely on twisting Scriptures and on opinions and feelings.

In our culture of America we have moved away from Biblical thinking and reasoning to favor personal 'feelings', old wives tales and indivual opinions.

" But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." 2 tim 3:13-17


Bill the cat - you stated "did the Word warn us to not bother answering silly things like this?"

What is being spoken of (and the scripture is quoted below) is teaching doctrines that are contrary to Christ, kind of like your support of not questioning church tithing practises; if this was the case then peter was wrong when he questioned ananias and saphira who held back a portion of their tithe and lied about it and the Lord struck them dead for lying. (Clearly this was not an issue of percentages.)

"that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
4. Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do." 1 tim 1:3b-4

ANd this scripture: "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4. He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5. Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself."

This is speaking of men who teach doctrines contrary to Christ and His words, men who babble, but refuse to use the word of God to defend thier Acme doctrines; men who seek to lead others astray; they are none of His.

Through the edification of Scripture, we encourage our brethren that they may be built up in the faith, as iron shaprens iron.

Bill the cat again - you stated "...and laid it at the apostles' feet.'
"Barnabas had no say where the money went after that. The apostles were responsible once the offering was made. No one questioned what they did with it. And neither should you."

Are you an apostle? An eyewitnes of Christ? According to your theology, what right then did Jesus have to turn over the money changers tables in the temple, when they turned his house into a den of theives? What, is tithing somehow separate from doctrine in that you can question doctrine but not tithing? Where do you find this theology in the Scriptures? You've twisted these Scriptures to possible justify the fleecing of your own flock.

I believe the Bible supports men giving to the real Church, who in turn promote the Gospel of Christ and feed the hungry and less fortunate.

"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." James 1:27

Nowhere did Jesus say, 'build for yourselves a kingdom here.' but He said go and preach the gospel that the kingdom of Heaven may be increased.

The point in that place of the article is that we have a hideous tradition in this culture of America that builds bigger and bigger church buildings and justifies it in the name of the Lord, when 90% of the tithe goes to 'support ourself and building' and only 10% goes to spreading the gospel and taking care of the saints. Even at that, most of the help goes to people who don't even qualify from the Scriptures to be helped. (widows and fatherless)


Bill the cat - you stated " As far as salaries go, so what? What percentage of the sacrifice at the temple went to the priests and Levites? You have no right to question what a church leadership does with the tithes brought in."

According to your theology, a brother has no right to question the tithe with Scriptures, as if your gain was godliness.

"5. Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
6. But godliness with contentment is great gain.
7. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
8. And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
9. But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows."

Bil, the cat - please note "will food and raiment be with these content"; your theology is not content with just food and raiment but fleeces the flock with thier cadillacs and thousand dollar suits. This theology is very common among leaders in American modern Christendom, but all these alien theologies are subject to the Word of God, no execptions.

Bill the cat - you stated " Nowhere in the Bible are women forbidden from meeting with the men. You are a chauvinist pig if you think it does"

I did not say women are forbidden from meeting with me, what I said what men are the authority of the Body of Christ; Just as you and your bad doctrine, being a man will be held in greater acountability for such doctrines.


IN regards to some of the ladies' questions that were asked, the Scriptrue says if you have a question you should ask your husband at home. If you don't have a husband, I am more than happy to point to the Scriptures. Women are not allowed to teach or usurp authority over men in the Church:

" But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." 1 tim 2:10-12

"1. Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2. While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear." 1 peter 3:1-2

" Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 corinth 14:34-35

These are the Scriptures dealing with women in leadership, and I suppose if you don't like them you could rip them out of your bible, and pretend they don't exist, like many have done; but it is still the word of God, not a man's opinion, and as the Scripture says, 'heaven and earth will pass away but my Words will never pass away"; it is shameful for a man to allow a woman to teach or preach in the Church.

To end this reply, please note the following Scripture very carefully and test your doctrine, and your pastor's doctrine in light of it:

" 1. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not" 2 Peter 2:1-3

These men will make merchandice of you, the flock, through their feigned words. Beware of their damnable theologies that they bring into the Church; test all theologies and opinions in light of the Scriptures.

- Steven, a soldier in Christ

www.informationgospel.net

Secretary of Education - Colin the Cat
April 29th 2003, 02:14 AM
Understand that I take no pleasure in this, but it is necessary, just as Paul harshly corrected the Galatians and the Corinthians who thought themselves “super apostles”

Bill the cat - you stated "did the Word warn us to not bother answering silly things like this?"

What is being spoken of (and the scripture is quoted below) is teaching doctrines that are contrary to Christ, kind of like your support of not questioning church tithing practises; if this was the case then peter was wrong when he questioned ananias and saphira who held back a portion of their tithe and lied about it and the Lord struck them dead for lying. (Clearly this was not an issue of percentages.)

Learn the issue. If you want the whole text, here it is.

Act 5:1 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property,
Act 5:2 and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife's full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles' feet.
Act 5:3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?
Act 5:4 "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

Act 5:7 Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.
Act 5:8 And Peter responded to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?" And she said, "Yes, that was the price."
Act 5:9 Then Peter said to her, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well."

This immediately followed the example of Barnabas, who gave all of the price of the land he sold. Ananias and Sapphira lied and said they gave the price of the land to the Disciple. The issue was not withholding money, but lying about it.

"that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
4. Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do." 1 tim 1:3b-4

ANd this scripture: "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4. He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5. Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself."

This is speaking of men who teach doctrines contrary to Christ and His words, men who babble, but refuse to use the word of God to defend thier Acme doctrines; men who seek to lead others astray; they are none of His.

So you have incorrectly divided the word and misstated it, so the condemnation is yours.

Bill the cat again - you stated "...and laid it at the apostles' feet.'
"Barnabas had no say where the money went after that. The apostles were responsible once the offering was made. No one questioned what they did with it. And neither should you."

Are you an apostle? An eyewitnes of Christ? According to your theology, what right then did Jesus have to turn over the money changers tables in the temple, when they turned his house into a den of theives? What, is tithing somehow separate from doctrine in that you can question doctrine but not tithing? Where do you find this theology in the Scriptures? You've twisted these Scriptures to possible justify the fleecing of your own flock.

So you think that all who are called apostles were eyewitnesses to Christ?
Apostle Name and Scripture reference
Simon, called Peter. Also known as Cephas. Matthew 10:2, John 1:42
Andrew (Peter's brother) Matthew 10:2
James the Son of Zebedee Matthew 10:2
John (brother of James above) Matthew 10:2
Philip Matthew 10:3
Bartholomew Matthew 10:3
Thomas Matthew 10:3
Matthew Matthew 10:3
James the son of Alphaeus Matthew 10:3
Thaddaeus (also known as Judas [not Iscariout]) Matthew 10:3
Simon the Zealot Matthew 10:4
Judas Iscariot Matthew 10:4
Matthias ? Acts 1:26
Paul (originally named Saul) Romans 1:1
Barnabas (also called Joseph) ? Acts 14:14, 4:36
James the Lord's Brother ? Galatians 1:19
Andronicus ? Romans 16:7
Junias ? Romans 16:7
Silvanus ? 1 Thes. 1:1, 2:1-6
Timothy ? 1 Thes. 1:1, 2:1-6
Epaphroditus ? Philippians 2:25
Titus ? 2 Cor. 8:23
Unnamed Apostles ? 1 Cor. 15:7; 2 Cor. 8:23
A total of 22+ possible named apostles in scripture

Second point, Jesus overturned the tables because the moneychangers were taking up the entire outer court, which belonged to the Gentiles. I do disagree with selling anything inside the temple or church. And as far as questioning the leaders of the church, is it your responsibility to judge their misuse, or is it God’s. Judge you not, lest you be judged accordingly. James 3:1 says God will judge those more harshly.

Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

Submit to your leaders because God is their judge and will deal with them if they misuse funds.

I believe the Bible supports men giving to the real Church, who in turn promote the Gospel of Christ and feed the hungry and less fortunate.

You keep talking about this “real” Church as if it only exists outside of the US. Yes the Bible mandates these things, but it is once again on the leaders to be responsible and on you to submit to them.

The point in that place of the article is that we have a hideous tradition in this culture of America that builds bigger and bigger church buildings and justifies it in the name of the Lord, when 90% of the tithe goes to 'support ourselves and building' and only 10% goes to spreading the gospel and taking care of the saints. Even at that, most of the help goes to people who don't even qualify from the Scriptures to be helped. (widows and fatherless)

Oh, please tell me you didn’t say that.

Psa 146:9 The LORD protects the strangers; He supports the fatherless and the widow, But He thwarts the way of the wicked.

As far as the monster temples, I could not agree more. Some churches do, but to lump all American churches into this idea is irresponsible at best and judgmental to boot.


Bill the cat - you stated " As far as salaries go, so what? What percentage of the sacrifice at the temple went to the priests and Levites? You have no right to question what a church leadership does with the tithes brought in."

According to your theology, a brother has no right to question the tithe with Scriptures, as if your gain was godliness.

What are you talking about? You still didn’t answer my question. When the Levites abused the offerings and took more than they should, who condemned them? God. Not man.

Bil, the cat - please note "will food and raiment be with these content"; your theology is not content with just food and raiment but fleeces the flock with their Cadillac’s and thousand dollar suits. This theology is very common among leaders in American modern Christendom, but all these alien theologies are subject to the Word of God, no execptions.

Once again, there are those who this applies to, but I have personally known Pastors who had to live with parishioners because they had no money. Your blanket statement is useless in my ears. It is nothing more than idle prattle, and need I remind you about idle talk?

Bill the cat - you stated " Nowhere in the Bible are women forbidden from meeting with the men. You are a chauvinist pig if you think it does"

I did not say women are forbidden from meeting with me, what I said what men are the authority of the Body of Christ; Just as you and your bad doctrine, being a man will be held in greater acountability for such doctrines.

Well, women can lead just as well as men can. See Deborah for example. Also, Priscilla is always listed before Aquila in the scriptures, indicating precedence. with him Priscilla and Aquila--In this order the names also occur in Act_18:26 (according to the true reading); compare Rom_16:3; 2Ti_4:19, which seem to imply that the wife was the more prominent and helpful to the Church.


IN regards to some of the ladies' questions that were asked, the Scriptrue says if you have a question you should ask your husband at home. If you don't have a husband, I am more than happy to point to the Scriptures. Women are not allowed to teach or usurp authority over men in the Church:

" But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." 1 tim 2:10-12

"1. Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2. While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear." 1 peter 3:1-2

" Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 corinth 14:34-35

These are the Scriptures dealing with women in leadership, and I suppose if you don't like them you could rip them out of your bible, and pretend they don't exist, like many have done; but it is still the word of God, not a man's opinion, and as the Scripture says, 'heaven and earth will pass away but my Words will never pass away"; it is shameful for a man to allow a woman to teach or preach in the Church.

So I suppose you should rip Judges 4:4 out of your Bible as well as 2Kings 22:14 where the prophets went to Huldah. Jesus regarded women as fit for delivering news about himself (evangelists) to other men. For instance, John 4 describes the Samaritan women as evangelist to an entire community. The most glaring example is, of course, the resurrection. Jesus entrusts this most important news to women before any man (in contrast to Jewish law that denied validity to a women's testimony). So please look before you leap.

To end this reply, please note the following Scripture very carefully and test your doctrine, and your pastor's doctrine in light of it:

" 1. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not" 2 Peter 2:1-3

And I suggest you spend a bit more time in the scriptures and pay special attention to this one:
2Ti 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.


These men will make merchandise of you, the flock, through their feigned words. Beware of their damnable theologies that they bring into the Church; test all theologies and opinions in light of the Scriptures.

And you do the same. Test your bitterness of elders who wronged you or someone else in the light of Jesus’ dealing with dishonest Zaccheus. Jesus loved Him and God convicted him, not men. You really have some unforgiveness it seems. Lay it down at Christ’s feet and be free of this bitterness. Press on toward the goal and realize we are all brothers in Christ and we should love one another instead of condemn. Remember, get the plank out of your own eye before you try to get the speck out of someone else’s eye. Just as Paul, I try to finish with love and blessings in Jesus’ name.

Steven
April 29th 2003, 03:01 AM
Bill the cat,

Maybe this Scripture will be helpful for you:

" No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.
17. For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
18. Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have."

Luke 8:16-18

- Steven

Secretary of Education - Colin the Cat
April 29th 2003, 03:53 AM
How so? I know this scripture well. It's one of the three my best friend's father in law uses to explain his missionary efforts to the nation of Guyana, South America. It's a wonderful exhortation to spread the word of Christ that we have and not hide it. Among other meanings. What is your reason for posting this scripture?

Steven
April 29th 2003, 05:32 PM
Bill the cat,

The same reason I quoted you the last Scripture is the reason I quote you this one:

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not." 2 Peter 2:1-3

I hope this helps.

- Steven
:teeth:

Secretary of Education - Colin the Cat
April 30th 2003, 12:08 AM
And I agree that there are many people teaching false things like the Jehovah Witnesses, the Mormons, David Koresh, Benny Hinn, and those who abuse the Scriptures. But it does not mean that a blanket can be thrown over the whole of American Christianity.

Socrates
May 22nd 2003, 01:41 AM
Respected Pastor Notes Serious Consequences of Evangelical 'Pragmatism'

By Jim Brown and Jody Brown
May 20, 2003

(AgapePress) - A well-known Christian pastor is warning of a movement in evangelical churches to replace sound Bible teaching with drama, music and other forms of entertainment.

Dr. John MacArthur says many church leaders today do not recognize the dangers that evangelical pragmatism poses. The pastor of Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, says churches with a "seeker-sensitive" approach need to prepare themselves for a lot of unintended consequences.

"If you draw people in on the basis of entertainment ... on the basis of the 'psychological fix' [or] on the basis of principles of prosperity [and] success, you're going to have to continue to feed that," MacArthur says. "In other words, that's what got them there and that's what they are going to expect.

"If you say to yourself 'We'll draw them this way and then we'll give them the Bible' -- you come across like a bait-and-switch used car salesman."

MacArthur, host of the popular syndicated radio show Grace to You, says pragmatic churches often find themselves stuck in the mode of meeting superficial needs by attempting to become more creative, clever, and entertaining. As a result, he says, many people in such churches have not gone through a sincere conversion experience.

"[T]herefore the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit is not going on [in a church full of people who are not genuinely converted]," the pastor says, "and you're going to be dealing with sinful people who then are in increasingly important positions in the church and defining what the church is."

MacArthur says pragmatic churches are often more focused on meeting an individual's felt needs, instead of pointing them to Christ.

....

Steven
May 22nd 2003, 02:52 AM
socrates,

MacArthur, host of the popular syndicated radio show Grace to You, says pragmatic churches often find themselves stuck in the mode of meeting superficial needs by attempting to become more creative, clever, and entertaining. As a result, he says, many people in such churches have not gone through a sincere conversion experience.

i would agree with john macarther 100% in this statement and consider him ten times the scholar than most of the supposed 'scholars'.

we live in an unfortunate time where there is a lot of slight of hand: one quotes from the Scriptures, like with the issue of homosexuality for instance, then takes it away with the other hand, saying its an abomination like every sin is an abomination. This is one of the issues that are an affront to The Church, which shows the slimy, corporate mentality which has slithered it's way into the church, which is tempting God's wrath.

I pray for more Biblcally driven scholars like john macarthur who have reverance for the Scriptures and who fear God.

blessings,

Steven

Bib Lit Major
May 22nd 2003, 03:09 AM
Interesting sidenote: The purpose of exegesis is to understand what the text said to the original readers. One cannot stop there, however, one must bring it back into the 21st century through the process of hermeneutics.

I understand there is potential for a problem in catering to people rather than God. However, there is an equally valid problem of trying to live as 21st century Christians in the first century! For instance, we don't have an honor/shame system, nor do we live in a collectivist society in general. We must accurately understand what God was trying to communicate to all people for all times. Having said that, I will not comment further.

One thing that did confuse me was what Steven communicated above about homosexuality. Perhaps you could enlighten me? (I'm not saying I disagree homosexuality is a sin but your wording is very confusing and seems ambiguous.)

Steven
May 22nd 2003, 01:58 PM
Sir Bib Lit Major,

I apologize if my statement was confusing. Allow me to clarify it a little: there are often people with agendas which generally are contrary to the sound doctrine of the Scriptures, and to deny the Scriptures to embrace the agenda would bring them much critisism, so they become masters of trickery and slight of hand; by presenting the gospel and the truth of God's word, then limiting it in the next breath with their agenda or human reasoning. In regards to my statemnt on homosexuality, there was a statement made on another thread in another room that homsexuality was an abomination just like all others sins were an abomination. This is contrary to the scriptures; this is a sin which believers, acording to corinthians 6:9-15, Romans 1:18-32, do not practice whatsoever. It is also a sin which goes against the nature of man. It is a 'slight of hand' maneuver to say 'it is a sin like every other sin' which is partial truth but takes away the context, intent and weight of the meaning that the Bible attributes to this particular sin, calling such an abominatiuon to God, along with murder, beastiality, etc: a list of what only unbelievers practice.

I have covered this topic pretty extensively in the theology 102 room here:
http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?=&threadid=4442&perpage=16&pagenumber=1

And due to the sensitive nature of some who probably practice in this sin, who are participants in this forum, I will not debate with such, but if you have any more questions you can go to my website's email page and I'll answer to the best of my ability any questions there:

www.informationgospel.net

Hope this helps,

- Steven :smile:

Warcraft3
May 22nd 2003, 02:08 PM
Steven, your constant scripture quoting and somewhat useless posts never cease to amaze me.


Here have a bananna.....:yipee:




Russ

Steven
May 22nd 2003, 02:11 PM
thank you.

Jaltus
May 22nd 2003, 04:39 PM
If you do not believe in exegesis, then how do you propose to understand the text?

Bib Lit Major
May 23rd 2003, 03:54 AM
Yesterday @ 08:39 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=104732#post104732)
Jaltus:

If you do not believe in exegesis, then how do you propose to understand the text?

Are you referring to my post? If so, thats not what I meant to imply. I meant that once we discovered what the text meant to the first readers of the text through exegesis, we must go through certain hermeneutical principles to apply that meaning to us today in the 21st century. Sorry for any confusion.

Jaltus
May 23rd 2003, 11:55 AM
No, not your post.

Bib Lit Major
May 23rd 2003, 01:54 PM
Today @ 03:55 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=105502#post105502)
Jaltus:

No, not your post. Oh...just making sure.