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Trout
August 16th 2004, 12:34 AM
TheologyWeb and Probe Ministries Present Our Featured Ministry Article:

The Value of Suffering

Sue Bohlin

There is no such thing as pointless pain in the life of the child of God. How this has encouraged and strengthened me in the valleys of suffering and pain! In this essay I'll be discussing the value of suffering, an unhappy non-negotiable of life in a fallen world.

Suffering Prepares Us to Be the Bride of Christ

Among the many reasons God allows us to suffer, this is my personal favorite: it prepares us to be the radiant bride of Christ. The Lord Jesus has a big job to do, changing His ragamuffin church into a glorious bride worthy of the Lamb. Ephesians 5:26-27 tells us He is making us holy by washing us with the Word--presenting us to Himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish. Suffering develops holiness in unholy people. But getting there is painful in the Lord's "laundry room." When you use bleach to get rid of stains, it's a harsh process. Getting rid of wrinkles is even more painful: ironing means a combination of heat plus pressure. Ouch! No wonder suffering hurts!

But developing holiness in us is a worthwhile, extremely important goal for the Holy One who is our divine Bridegroom. We learn in Hebrews 12:10 that we are enabled to share in His holiness through the discipline of enduring hardship. More ouch! Fortunately, the same book assures us that discipline is a sign of God's love (Heb. 12:6). Oswald Chambers reminds us that "God has one destined end for mankind--holiness. His one aim is the production of saints."{1}

It's also important for all wives, but most especially the future wife of the Son of God, to have a submissive heart. Suffering makes us more determined to obey God; it teaches us to be submissive. The psalmist learned this lesson as he wrote in Psalm 119:67: "Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I obey your word. It was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your decrees."

The Lord Jesus has His work cut out for Him in purifying us for Himself (Titus 2:14). Let's face it, left to ourselves we are a dirty, messy, fleshly people, and we desperately need to be made pure. As hurtful as it is, suffering can purify us if we submit to the One who has a loving plan for the pain.

Jesus wants not just a pure bride, but a mature one as well--and suffering produces growth and maturity in us. James 1:2-4 reminds us that trials produce perseverance, which makes us mature and complete. And Romans 5:3-4 tells us that we can actually rejoice in our sufferings, because, again, they produce perseverance, which produces character, which produces hope. The Lord is creating for Himself a bride with sterling character, but it's not much fun getting there. I like something else Oswald Chambers wrote: "Sorrow burns up a great amount of shallowness."{2}

We usually don't have much trouble understanding that our Divine Bridegroom loves us; but we can easily forget how much He longs for us to love Him back. Suffering scoops us out, making our hearts bigger so that we can hold more love for Him. It's all part of a well-planned courtship. He does know what He's doing . . . we just need to trust Him.

Suffering Allows Us to Minister Comfort to Others Who Suffer

One of the most rewarding reasons that suffering has value is experienced by those who can say with conviction, "I know how you feel. I've been in your shoes." Suffering prepares us to minister comfort to others who suffer.

Feeling isolated is one of the hardest parts of suffering. It can feel like you're all alone in your pain, and that makes it so much worse. The comfort of those who have known that same pain is inexpressible. It feels like a warm blanket being draped around your soul. But in order for someone to say those powerful words--"I know just how you feel because I've been there"--that person had to walk through the same difficult valley first.

Ray and I lost our first baby when she was born too prematurely to survive. It was the most horrible suffering we've ever known. But losing Becky has enabled me to weep with those who weep with the comforting tears of one who has experienced that deep and awful loss. It's a wound that--by God's grace--has never fully healed so that I can truly empathize with others out of the very real pain I still feel. Talking about my loss puts me in touch with the unhealed part of the grief and loss that will always hurt until I see my daughter again in heaven. One of the most incredibly comforting things we can ever experience is someone else's tears for us. So when I say to a mother or father who has also lost a child, "I hurt with you, because I've lost a precious one too," my tears bring warmth and comfort in a way that someone who has never known that pain cannot offer.

One of the most powerful words of comfort I received when we were grieving our baby's loss was from a friend who said, "Your pain may not be about just you. It may well be about other people, preparing you to minister comfort and hope to someone in your future who will need what you can give them because of what you're going through right now. And if you are faithful to cling to God now, I promise He will use you greatly to comfort others later." That perspective was like a sweet balm to my soul, because it showed me that my suffering was not pointless.

There's another aspect of bringing comfort to those in pain. Those who have suffered tend not to judge others experiencing similar suffering. Not being judged is a great comfort to those who hurt. When you're in pain, your world narrows down to mere survival, and it's easy for others to judge you for not "following the rules" that should only apply to those whose lives aren't being swallowed by the pain monster.

Suffering often develops compassion and mercy in us. Those who suffer tend to have tender hearts toward others who are in pain. We can comfort others with the comfort that we have received from God (2 Cor. 1:4) because we have experienced the reality of the Holy Spirit being there for us, walking alongside us in our pain. Then we can turn around and walk alongside others in their pain, showing the compassion that our own suffering has produced in us.

Suffering Develops Humble Dependence on God

Marine Corps recruiter Randy Norfleet survived the Oklahoma City bombing despite losing 40 percent of his blood and needing 250 stitches to close his wounds. He never lost consciousness in the ambulance because he was too busy praying prayers of thanksgiving for his survival. When doctors said he would probably lose the sight in his right eye, Mr. Norfleet said, "Losing an eye is a small thing. Whatever brings you closer to God is a blessing. Through all this I've been brought closer to God. I've become more dependent on Him and less on myself."{3}

Suffering is excellent at teaching us humble dependence on God, the only appropriate response to our Creator. Ever since the fall of Adam, we keep forgetting that God created us to depend on Him and not on ourselves. We keep wanting to go our own way, pretending that we are God. Suffering is powerfully able to get us back on track.

Sometimes we hurt so much we can't pray. We are forced to depend on the intercession of the Holy Spirit and the saints, needing them to go before the throne of God on our behalf. Instead of seeing that inability to pray as a personal failure, we can rejoice that our perception of being totally needy corresponds to the truth that we really are that needy. 2 Corinthians 1:9 tells us that hardships and sufferings happen "so that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead."

Suffering brings a "one day at a time-ness" to our survival. We get to the point of saying, "Lord, I can only make it through today if You help me . . . if You take me through today . . . or the next hour . . . or the next few minutes." One of my dearest friends shared with me the prayer from a heart burning with emotional pain: "Papa, I know I can make it through the next fifteen minutes if You hold me and walk me through it." Suffering has taught my friend the lesson of total, humble dependence on God.

As painful as it is, suffering strips away the distractions of life. It forces us to face the fact that we are powerless to change other people and most situations. The fear that accompanies suffering drives us to the Father like a little kid burying his face in his daddy's leg. Recognizing our own powerlessness is actually the key to experience real power because we have to acknowledge our dependence on God before His power can flow from His heart into our lives.

The disciples experienced two different storms out on the lake. The Lord's purpose in both storms was to train them to stop relying on their physical eyes and use their spiritual eyes. He wanted them to grow in trust and dependence on the Father. He allows us to experience storms in our lives for the same purpose: to learn to depend on God.

I love this paraphrase of Romans 8:28: "The Lord may not have planned that this should overtake me, but He has most certainly permitted it. Therefore, though it were an attack of an enemy, by the time it reaches me, it has the Lord's permission, and therefore all is well. He will make it work together with all life's experiences for good."

Suffering Displays God's Strength Through Our Weakness

God never wastes suffering, not a scrap of it. He redeems all of it for His glory and our blessing. The classic Scripture for the concept that suffering displays God's strength through our weakness is found in 2 Corinthians 12:8-10, where we learn that God's grace is sufficient for us, for His power is perfected in weakness. Paul said he delighted in weaknesses, hardships, and difficulties "for when I am weak, then I am strong."

Our culture disdains weakness, but our frailty is a sign of God's workmanship in us. It gets us closer to what we were created to be--completely dependent on God. Several years ago I realized that instead of despising the fact that polio had left me with a body that was weakened and compromised, susceptible to pain and fatigue, I could choose to rejoice in it. My weakness made me more like a fragile, easily broken window than a solid brick wall. But just as sunlight pours through a window but is blocked by a wall, I discovered that other people could see God's strength and beauty in me because of the window-like nature of my weakness! Consider how the Lord Jesus was the exact representation of the glory of the Father--I mean, He was all window and no walls! He was completely dependent on the Father, choosing to become weak so that God's strength could shine through Him. And He was the strongest person the world has ever seen. Not His own strength; He displayed the Father's strength because of that very weakness.

The reason His strength can shine through us is because we know God better through suffering. One wise man I heard said, "I got theology in seminary, but I learned reality through trials. I got facts in Sunday School, but I learned faith through trusting God in difficult circumstances. I got truth from studying, but I got to know the Savior through suffering."

Sometimes our suffering isn't a consequence of our actions or even someone else's. God is teaching other beings about Himself and His loved ones--us--as He did with Job. The point of Job's trials was to enable heavenly beings to see God glorified in Job. Sometimes He trusts us with great pain in order to make a point, whether the intended audience is believers, unbelievers, or the spirit realm. Joni Eareckson Tada, no stranger to great suffering, writes, "Whether a godly attitude shines from a brain-injured college student or from a lonely man relegated to a back bedroom, the response of patience and perseverance counts. God points to the peaceful attitude of suffering people to teach others about Himself. He not only teaches those we rub shoulders with every day, but He instructs the countless millions of angels and demons. The hosts in heaven stand amazed when they observe God sustain hurting people with His peace."{4}

I once heard Charles Stanley say that nothing attracts the unbeliever like a saint suffering successfully. Joni Tada said, "You were made for one purpose, and that is to make God real to those around you."{5} The reality of God's power, His love, and His character are made very, very real to a watching world when we trust Him in our pain.

Suffering Gets Us Ready for Heaven

Pain is inevitable because we live in a fallen world. 1 Thessalonians 3:3 reminds us that we are "destined for trials." We don't have a choice whether we will suffer--our choice is to go through it by ourselves or with God.

Suffering teaches us the difference between the important and the transient. It prepares us for heaven by teaching us how unfulfilling life on earth is and helping us develop an eternal perspective. Suffering makes us homesick for heaven.

Deep suffering of the soul is also a taste of hell. After many sleepless nights wracked by various kinds of pain, my friend Jan now knows what she was saved from. Many Christians only know they're saved without grasping what it is Christ has delivered them from. Jan's suffering has given her an appreciation of the reality of heaven, and she's been changed forever.

I have an appreciation of heaven gained from a different experience. As my body weakens from the lifelong impact of polio, to be honest, I have a deep frustration with it that makes me grateful for the perfect, beautiful, completely working resurrection body waiting for me on the other side. My husband once told me that heaven is more real to me than anyone he knows. Suffering has done that for me. Paul explained what happens in 2 Corinthians 4:16-18:

"Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, for what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal."

One of the effects of suffering is to loosen our grasp on this life, because we shouldn't be thinking that life in a fallen world is as wonderful as we sometimes think it is. Pastor Dick Bacon once said, "If this life were easy, we'd just love it too much. If God didn't make it painful, we'd never let go of it." Suffering reminds us that we live in an abnormal world. Suffering is abnormal--our souls protest, "This isn't right!" We need to be reminded that we are living in "Plan B." The perfect Plan A of God's beautiful, suffering-free creation was ruined when Adam and Eve fell. So often, people wonder what kind of cruel God would deliberately make a world so full of pain and suffering. They've lost track of history. The world God originally made isn't the one we experience. Suffering can make us long for the new heaven and the new earth where God will set all things right again.

Sometimes suffering literally prepares us for heaven. Cheryl's in-laws, both beset by lingering illnesses, couldn't understand why they couldn't just die and get it over with. But after three long years of holding on, during a visit from Cheryl's pastor, the wife trusted Christ on her deathbed and the husband received assurance of his salvation. A week later the wife died, followed in six months by her husband. They had continued to suffer because of God's mercy and patience, who did not let them go before they received His gracious gift of salvation.

Suffering dispels the cloaking mists of inconsequential distractions of this life and puts things in their proper perspective. My friend Pete buried his wife a few years ago after a battle with Lou Gehrig's disease. One morning I learned that his car had died on the way to church, and I said something about what a bummer it was. Pete just shrugged and said, "This is nothing." That's what suffering will do for us. Trials are nothing . . . but God is everything.

Notes

1. Oswald Chambers, Our Utmost for His Highest, September 1.
2. Chambers, June 25.
3. National and International Religion Report, Vol. 9:10, May 1, 1995, 1
4. Joni Eareckson Tada, When Is It Right to Die? (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1992), 122.
5. Tada, 118.

See Also

* How to Handle the Things You Hate but Can't Change: The author's personal story of coming to grips with her polio handicap
* Reflections of a Caregiver: The essay of a former Probe staff member on his 20-year journey of caring for his wife as they battled Huntington's Disease
* Probe Answers Our E-Mail: My Hurting Friend Has Stopped Believing in God

© 2000 Probe Ministries International


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Probe Ministries is a non-profit ministry whose mission is to assist the church in renewing the minds of believers with a Christian worldview and to equip the church to engage the world for Christ. Probe fulfills this mission through our Mind Games conferences for youth and adults, our 3 1/2 minute daily radio program, our extensive Web site at www.probe.org, and the ProbeCenter at the University of Texas at Austin.

Further information about Probe's materials and ministry may be obtained by contacting us at:

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Trout
August 16th 2004, 11:17 PM
B_u_m_p

apple
August 20th 2004, 11:23 AM
Asserting that suffering is the work of God or the will of God or necessary to get closer to God, has been abused for centuries. It is the perverted argument used by authority, the ruling class, the people whom have more than others and refuse to share.

There is nothing noble, honorable or holy with regards to suffering. It is mankind's obligation to help alleviate the suffering of others and is all too often used as an excuse, by scoundrels, to justify not helping.

To attempt to justify suffering, to validate it, to, in any way, assign it goodness is appalling. You write, "The classic Scripture for the concept that suffering displays God's strength through our weakness is found in 2 Corinthians 12:8-10, where we learn that God's grace is sufficient for us, for His power is perfected in weakness....It gets us closer to what we were created to be--completely dependent on God."

Outrageous! Besides being used to justify not helping others, as I prevoiusly mentioned, it results in the elderly being denied euthanasia while they beg to be put out of their misery. Under the disguise of hospices/palliative care we watch our fellow human beings suffer until their body literally collapses from the pain and torment. The other side of the coin is attempting to outlaw abortion which will result in the bringing of children into the world knowing they will suffer and die from genetic defects like Tay-Sachs Disease (The child becomes blind, deaf, and unable to swallow, muscles begin to atrophy and paralysis sets in) which ends a child's life before five years of age. Or Canavan Disease or a host of others.

Future generations will look back on this time in man's history and rightfully conclude we were nothing but sadistic barbarians brainwashed by folks referred to as "religious" claiming it was all a plan by some supernatural being.

Appalling, outrageous....those words do not even come close to describing how some people try to justify the suffering of others or rationalize their own. Such beliefs, although not always intentionally meant to contol/supress individuals, is a curse to the advancement to all mankind.

George Blaisdell
August 29th 2004, 09:45 PM
Asserting that suffering is the work of God or the will of God or necessary to get closer to God, has been abused for centuries. It is the perverted argument used by authority, the ruling class, the people whom have more than others and refuse to share.


The way of the world is the avoidance of suffering. Christ's promise to us is that in the world we will find tribulation, and in Him peace beyond understanding. He tells us in the Beatitudes that those who are persecuted for His Name's sake are blessed...

And He as well tells us in Mark 8:34, "And if anyone is willing to be following after Me, let him deny himself, take up his own cross, and be following Me." Now what is it that you think is the avoidance of suffering is self denial and the taking up of one's own cross. The cross is an instrument of torture unto death, and IF we are willing to be following Christ, we are told by Christ Himself that we are to embrace our own cross in self denial... Exactly how do you think anyone can do this without suffering...???


There is nothing noble, honorable or holy with regards to suffering. It is mankind's obligation to help alleviate the suffering of others and is all too often used as an excuse, by scoundrels, to justify not helping.


You are right that we all too often justify the imposition of suffering, and our failure to alleviate it when we can... The teachings of the father are to alleviate as much as we can others' sufferings, and to embrace our own, and that we are never to justify our failure to help the suffering of others by saying that THEIR suffering is good for them...


To attempt to justify suffering, to validate it, to, in any way, assign it goodness is appalling.


Suffering is a fact of life on this earth - The only way to avoid it is to do drugs, and to die doing drugs... That suffering lets us know we will die, and helps us turn from the world and unto God, which is the essence of repentance...


...it results in the elderly being denied euthanasia while they beg to be put out of their misery.


No euthanasia for me, thank you - God will take me when He deems the time is right -


We watch our fellow human beings suffer until their body literally collapses from the pain and torment.


Flesh has been dying in pain and torment for thousands and thousands of years... I, for one, deserve far worse than I will receive... We can medicate for pain without killing people...


The other side of the coin is attempting to outlaw abortion which will result in the bringing of children into the world knowing they will suffer and die from genetic defects like Tay-Sachs Disease (The child becomes blind, deaf, and unable to swallow, muscles begin to atrophy and paralysis sets in) which ends a child's life before five years of age. Or Canavan Disease or a host of others.


I liked the guy who came down with parkinson's disease - the actor - Michael something... And he regards his disease as a great blessing, because he tells us that until he was unable to be still on the outside, he was never able to be still on the inside... He is still on the inside now... And grateful for his suffering... But you are right, it is not for everyone...

Killing children in the womb is the absolutely most barbaric thing we can do to them... There is only one place where a child should be safer than in its mother's arms, and that is in her womb...


Future generations will look back on this time in man's history and rightfully conclude we were nothing but sadistic barbarians brainwashed by folks referred to as "religious" claiming it was all a plan by some supernatural being.


They will look at it as a time when mothers murdered their own children in their own wombs with medical help, and where people looked out for "number one" [themselves] instead of caring about others in self-sacrifice and giving...


Appalling, outrageous....those words do not even come close to describing how some people try to justify the suffering of others


You are right - They kill babies in their mother's wombs and justify it on the basis of "They don't suffer, they aren't born yet..."


...or rationalize their own.


You will, if you live long enough, suffer... Some, in the face of this inevitability, commit suicide. Others do more and more drugs until they die... Some enter their suffering bravely, and others not... Some embrace their suffering as Christians...

It really is not your call to tell anyone else what to do about their suffering...


Such beliefs, although not always intentionally meant to contol/supress individuals, is a curse to the advancement to all mankind.


Mankind has been advancing to the grave unswervingly for thousands of years, in pain and suffering - Do you have some new panacea that will make us immortal and permanently pain-free? And if yes, THEN what will you have?? Babies only when there is some, say, accidental death, or homicide??

Your idea of mankind's advancement is just not the same as a Christian's, I should think... We seek advancement toward the kingdom of Heaven following Christ in self-denial taking up our own cross... You seek less pain, I should imagine, yes??

[geo] Arsenios

apple
January 4th 2005, 10:44 AM
You are right that we all too often justify the imposition of suffering, and our failure to alleviate it when we can... The teachings of the father are to alleviate as much as we can others' sufferings, and to embrace our own, and that we are never to justify our failure to help the suffering of others by saying that THEIR suffering is good for them...

Why are we to try and alleviate other's suffering if suffering is good? Let us suppose folks had tried to alleviate Job's suffering. Would not that have been direct interference in God's plans? How can we know whether or not God wishes for someone to suffer? As we struggle to alleviate another's suffering God may be adding to it to assure that person does, indeed, suffer. It would be possible, in certain circumstances, that God would be making a fool of the people who are helping. I find any belief that suffering is good to be highly illogical.

Killing children in the womb is the absolutely most barbaric thing we can do to them... There is only one place where a child should be safer than in its mother's arms, and that is in her womb..

The Bible consistently states that breath means life. Whether literally in Gen.2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." or figuratively in Ezek 37:8 "And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.....10:....and the breath came into them, and they lived"

Sinews, flesh and skin but no breath in nostrils means, according to the Bible, no life. There are dozens of references pertaining to breath and life and even a reference to breath as "for the breath in our nostrils is as smoke." Surely there can be no mistaking what is meant.

They will look at it as a time when mothers murdered their own children in their own wombs with medical help, and where people looked out for "number one" [themselves] instead of caring about others in self-sacrifice and giving...

Perhaps they will look at it as a time where the selflessness of women resulted in them not having children as they refused to bring a child into the world knowing it would suffer needlessly. What could possibly motivate someone to bear a child knowing it will slowly deteriorate until it becomes blind, deaf, paralyzed and finally dies before five years of age? How could anyone even entertain the idea that a higher, morally superior being would approve of such a thing?

You will, if you live long enough, suffer... Some, in the face of this inevitability, commit suicide. Others do more and more drugs until they die... Some enter their suffering bravely, and others not... Some embrace their suffering as Christians...

It really is not your call to tell anyone else what to do about their suffering......

Quite the contrary. As a member of the human race it is my obligation, my duty to my fellow human beings to do everything possible to ease their suffering and that includes dissuading them of the idea it is somehow noble or honorable. They owe no one or no thing.

When my time comes I look forward to a compassionate doctor and the wishes of my Living Will being honored.

Mankind has been advancing to the grave unswervingly for thousands of years, in pain and suffering - Do you have some new panacea that will make us immortal and permanently pain-free? And if yes, THEN what will you have?? Babies only when there is some, say, accidental death, or homicide??

Your idea of mankind's advancement is just not the same as a Christian's, I should think... We seek advancement toward the kingdom of Heaven following Christ in self-denial taking up our own cross... You seek less pain, I should imagine, yes??

If there was immortality the least of my worries would be what to do about babies. As for seeking less pain, absolutely. Once we accept it we do nothing to change it. I refuse to hold such a defeatist attitude.

MajMikeW
November 20th 2005, 12:36 AM
I agree with Apple that "There is nothing noble, honorable or holy with regards to suffering", and that as decent people (and especially as Christians) it is our duty to help alleviate it wherever and whenever possible.

However, having been exposed to suffering on many levels both personally and as witness in the military on medical/humanitarian missions, I have no doubt that it has expanded my conciousness dramatically of the world around me and my place in it. Almost always, after time has passed, I will see growth where before I only saw pain.

I offer a poor attempt at summation:

"Dross" (by me)

When God gives you the gift of humility He does so through suffering.
Only through fire can the gold be purified, and the dross discarded.
Only under great pressure does carbon turn to diamond, and beauty.

Peace can be found in surrender, only then can He heal our broken heart.
But having peered into the abyss, memory of sorrow will be ours always.

He sweated blood from every pore, taking all our sins upon Himself.
Only the smallest part of that nearly ended me, until I gave it away.

I know that evil exists, and that it walks on two legs, the capacity in us all.
Love is the enemy of evil, and a vastly more potent catalyst, also in us all.

True Love is when you give love expecting nothing in return, it is pure.
It took my child to really teach me about True Love, for her I will give all.

Our Father loved His Firstborn and Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ,
But yet He sent His Child as our Savior, to die for our sins, and defeat death.

If my daughter suffers I suffer, and I would end that which afflicts her,
God suffers when we do, and the Gospel is His attempt to Teach us,
About the power of Love, and how Love can heal our wounds with time.
///////////


MajMike

George Blaisdell
November 20th 2005, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by George Blaisdell
"Killing children in the womb is the absolutely most barbaric thing we can do to them... There is only one place where a child should be safer than in its mother's arms, and that is in her womb..."


The Bible consistently states that breath means life. Whether literally in Gen.2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." or figuratively in Ezek 37:8 "And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.....10:....and the breath came into them, and they lived"

Sinews, flesh and skin but no breath in nostrils means, according to the Bible, no life. There are dozens of references pertaining to breath and life and even a reference to breath as "for the breath in our nostrils is as smoke." Surely there can be no mistaking what is meant.

That is original creation... And perhaps by foreshadowing is regeneration...

But for an account of the procreation simply go to the Gospels, and you will find John the Baptist in his mother's womb, 6 month along toward term, leaping at the presence of Christ just conceived in the womb of the Blessed Virgin upon her arrival...

There is life in one womb, and Life in the other... Human life begins at conception - Hacking a child to bits with surgical instruments in the warmth and protectedness of its mother's womb is utterly barbaric and heinous... Pray for those who do this... For they are murderers in desperate need of repentance...

Arsenios

George Blaisdell
November 20th 2005, 01:18 AM
I agree with Apple that "There is nothing noble, honorable or holy with regards to suffering", and that as decent people (and especially as Christians) it is our duty to help alleviate it wherever and whenever possible.

However, having been exposed to suffering on many levels both personally and as witness in the military on medical/humanitarian missions, I have no doubt that it has expanded my conciousness dramatically of the world around me and my place in it. Almost always, after time has passed, I will see growth where before I only saw pain.

I offer a poor attempt at summation:

"Dross" (by me)

When God gives you the gift of humility He does so through suffering.
Only through fire can the gold be purified, and the dross discarded.
Only under great pressure does carbon turn to diamond, and beauty.

Peace can be found in surrender, only then can He heal our broken heart.
But having peered into the abyss, memory of sorrow will be ours always.

He sweated blood from every pore, taking all our sins upon Himself.
Only the smallest part of that nearly ended me, until I gave it away.

I know that evil exists, and that it walks on two legs, the capacity in us all.
Love is the enemy of evil, and a vastly more potent catalyst, also in us all.

True Love is when you give love expecting nothing in return, it is pure.
It took my child to really teach me about True Love, for her I will give all.

Our Father loved His Firstborn and Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ,
But yet He sent His Child as our Savior, to die for our sins, and defeat death.

If my daughter suffers I suffer, and I would end that which afflicts her,
God suffers when we do, and the Gospel is His attempt to Teach us,
About the power of Love, and how Love can heal our wounds with time.
///////////


MajMike


So is that Major Mike, as in a military rank? Are you a chaplain? Are you Orthodox? Your remark that Christ, through His death, defeated death, is a very Orthodox understanding...

Arsenios

MajMikeW
November 22nd 2005, 10:15 AM
George

I am a retired (due to wounds) USAF Major, raised Southern Baptist but now believe in a more encompassing Christianity.

I am more concerned with living rightly that doctrinal quiblings, and believe strongly in the idea behind "by their fruits ye shall know them". I favor Erasmus's free will over Luthor's predestination, and a personal relationship with God over having a priestly middleman relay God's will to me (no offense intended to anyone).

Having been to 41 countries on four continents I have seen a broad selection of cultures, races and religions, and have encountered and studied most of the world's major religions (and many minor ones). I prefer to focus on the many similarities between them (love, fellowship, charity, etc) rather than our differences, and believe in a merciful, loving God.

MajMike

George Blaisdell
November 22nd 2005, 11:37 PM
George

I am a retired (due to wounds) USAF Major, raised Southern Baptist but now believe in a more encompassing Christianity.

I am more concerned with living rightly that doctrinal quiblings, and believe strongly in the idea behind "by their fruits ye shall know them". I favor Erasmus's free will over Luthor's predestination, and a personal relationship with God over having a priestly middleman relay God's will to me (no offense intended to anyone).

Having been to 41 countries on four continents I have seen a broad selection of cultures, races and religions, and have encountered and studied most of the world's major religions (and many minor ones). I prefer to focus on the many similarities between them (love, fellowship, charity, etc) rather than our differences, and believe in a merciful, loving God.

MajMike
Well God Bless You, Major Mike...

You are right to focus on the praxis of the faith, rather than on doctrinal disputations. I have a feeling that your wounds forcing retirement are a blessing in disguise...

In the west, the priest is seen as an intermediary to God... In the East, he is seen as a hand-up for those still immature in the faith... Indeed, in Orthodoxy, it is the monk who is normally well above the priest - few priests become saints, but many monks...

And the priest is the one, with the rest of the clergy, that administers the sacraments and conducts the services according to Canon - This does not put him between the faithful and God, but in the service of both, as we all should be...

I am glad you are here, Major... And I pray God will help you find what you seek...

How long did you serve? Are you an old geezer now? Or just a young guy no longer able to serve? Colorado Springs [AF Academy] grad?

Arsenios