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JohnnyP
01-25-2014, 03:30 PM
130
The movie has generated enormous interest because it seems, some say, to be based on the Book of Ezekiel, and the plot fulfills prophecies about the end of the world, visitation by aliens, wheels with wheels, and so on. I'm not as expert on Ezekiel as I should be, but I can see the parallels -- especially since it has been pointed out to me that the figures at the end might be angels, might be aliens, or might be one resembling the other.

-"Knowing" movie review by Roger Ebert. (http://www.rogerebert.com/rogers-journal/love-and-hate-and-knowing-or-do-wings-have-angels)



Questions for discussion: since angels could take human form such as with the destruction of Sodom, is it possible some could live as ETs in physical form flying UFOs with advanced technology, or living on other planets? When Satan and angels were cast from Heaven, could they have taken on a physical form? Conversely, could what some people think are flying ships actually spirit beings?

Related question, does the Bible and God's Plan in it have any room for aliens and beings not living on earth? Or are we it?

:popcorn:

Goulette
01-25-2014, 04:01 PM
All of these things are POSSIBLE, yes. But whether these things are PROBABLE might be a different story.

shunyadragon
01-25-2014, 04:31 PM
The lack of any evidence of aliens nor alien technology makes any such claims anecdotal at best, and most likely meaningless.

JohnnyP
01-25-2014, 05:37 PM
All of these things are POSSIBLE, yes. But whether these things are PROBABLE might be a different story.

That's my position, possible that angels could be considered alien life forms, but who knows. I suppose this thread could also discuss ancient alien theories, and ideas that ancient gods like Horus depicted as men/beasts may have been like cherubim of Ezekiel depicted as men/beasts, either angels misunderstood to be gods or demons claiming to be gods.


The lack of any evidence of aliens nor alien technology makes any such claims anecdotal at best, and most likely meaningless.

For some Christians/theists maybe not meaningless due to lack of evidence since the premise already assumes belief in angels/demons.

Manwë Súlimo
01-25-2014, 06:59 PM
I'm an alien agnostic.

Jedidiah
01-25-2014, 07:06 PM
The lack of any evidence of aliens nor alien technology makes any such claims anecdotal at best, and most likely meaningless.

And the fact that any alien life would have to be more or less the same age as earth life. Until third generation stars there would not be enough heavy elements to support life, let alone get it started.

JohnnyP
01-25-2014, 07:22 PM
And the fact that any alien life would have to be more or less the same age as earth life. Until third generation stars there would not be enough heavy elements to support life, let alone get it started.

Enter my belief that at least some cherubim including the Serpent were created as helpers for Adam in Genesis 2, that those creatures are not the same as animals other humans evolved from in Genesis 1. So these at least would be about the same age in my view. Again not necessarily arguing that they are aliens, but giving a theist view that doesn't slam the door on the discussion.

Duragizer
01-26-2014, 07:32 PM
That's my position, possible that angels could be considered alien life forms, but who knows.

Presuming angels exist, they would be aliens the same way Lovecraftian deities are aliens -- ie. extradimensional entities that exist beyond the conventional universe, and as such, beyond human comprehension -- not aliens like E.T., who have corporeal forms and live on other planets.

JohnnyP
01-26-2014, 08:05 PM
Presuming angels exist, they would be aliens the same way Lovecraftian deities are aliens -- ie. extradimensional entities that exist beyond the conventional universe, and as such, beyond human comprehension -- not aliens like E.T., who have corporeal forms and live on other planets.

Could they take on material form like angels in Sodom, or is it your position they weren't really flesh? How about those who took wives in Noah's time, were they angels in flesh or regular men (e.g. Sons of Seth)?

ikaika777
01-27-2014, 05:39 AM
Why would angels take on the form of 4 foot tall gray/green beings with large heads and huge funny shaped eyes, and why would they need to fly around in spaceships? On top of that, I don't think angels can do anything without God's permission. And what's up with the anal probing obsession? :stunned: Short answer? No aliens.

JohnnyP
01-27-2014, 10:46 AM
Why would angels take on the form of 4 foot tall gray/green beings with large heads and huge funny shaped eyes, and why would they need to fly around in spaceships?

I've seen some suggest that's what Satan/demons look like when cast out of Heaven, they are no longer immortal spirit, but made mortal flesh as a punishment. Others suggest that Satan wants to deceive humans into believing that demons are aliens with advanced technology and ability to bring end of war/pollution/etc. to the earth so that humans will look to them as gods, instead of God.


On top of that, I don't think angels can do anything without God's permission.

The premise suggests God allows it as He may have allowed angels to take wives in Noah's time, if they in fact were angels in flesh.


And what's up with the anal probing obsession? :stunned:

Maybe they are gay demons (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1052/1052_01.asp). :lol:

142

ikaika777
01-28-2014, 02:25 AM
I've seen some suggest that's what Satan/demons look like when cast out of Heaven, they are no longer immortal spirit, but made mortal flesh as a punishment. Others suggest that Satan wants to deceive humans into believing that demons are aliens with advanced technology and ability to bring end of war/pollution/etc. to the earth so that humans will look to them as gods, instead of God.


They don't have mortal flesh or else they wouldn't be in the spirit realm doing "spiritual warfare".





The premise suggests God allows it as He may have allowed angels to take wives in Noah's time, if they in fact were angels in flesh.


He did ask permission to attack Job. We know angels don't marry. Matthew 22:30 (NASB)
"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

So, I don't believe the Nephlim were fallen angels who had sex with humans.







Maybe they are gay demons (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1052/1052_01.asp). :lol:

142


LOL! Could be.

JohnnyP
01-28-2014, 01:33 PM
They don't have mortal flesh or else they wouldn't be in the spirit realm doing "spiritual warfare".

He did ask permission to attack Job. We know angels don't marry. Matthew 22:30 (NASB)
"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

So, I don't believe the Nephlim were fallen angels who had sex with humans.

LOL! Could be.

Do you believe those in Noah's time were humans, like Sons of Seth? What about angels of Sodom, were they real flesh or more like illusion of flesh?

What do you make of this verse, is it talking about something other than Noah's time?


Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Zymologist
01-28-2014, 03:51 PM
As far as demons appearing as aliens, I'm agnostic about it. Maybe.

As far as other aliens in the universe, I can't think of anything in the Bible that would preclude it. There might be. Then again, if there are, I'm pretty darn sure that they don't visit us, and that we'll never know about them (or them us).

Duragizer
01-28-2014, 07:52 PM
Could they take on material form like angels in Sodom, or is it your position they weren't really flesh? How about those who took wives in Noah's time, were they angels in flesh or regular men (e.g. Sons of Seth)?

I believe that if angels exist, they can probably assume forms as a means of interacting with lesser beings -- such as humans -- on this mundane plane of existence, but they wouldn't be composed of anything approximating flesh as we know it, and I doubt they'd be interested in taking on human wives or breeding with them (that'd be like a human wanting to marry and start a family with an amoeba).

Manwë Súlimo
01-28-2014, 08:03 PM
Your unicellular hate speech won't be tolerated here.

JohnnyP
01-29-2014, 12:26 AM
...I doubt they'd be interested in taking on human wives or breeding with them (that'd be like a human wanting to marry and start a family with an amoeba).

What if they wanted to experiment, as some unethical scientists may want to experiment breeding humans and apes?


Your unicellular hate speech won't be tolerated here.

Ha!

KingsGambit
01-29-2014, 09:48 AM
I believe that fallen angels are in chains, awaiting their judgment (Jude 1:6) and don't see any scriptural warrant for restricting this verse to only some of them.

Cerebrum123
01-29-2014, 09:49 AM
I believe that fallen angels are in chains, awaiting their judgment (Jude 1:6) and don't see any scriptural warrant for restricting this verse to only some of them.

You haven't had any experience with them directly have you?

KingsGambit
01-29-2014, 09:55 AM
You haven't had any experience with them directly have you?

Other supernatural beings could be demons, which we know weren't immediately put in chains.

Cerebrum123
01-29-2014, 09:59 AM
Other supernatural beings could be demons, which we know weren't immediately put in chains.

What reason do we have to believe that demons are anything other than fallen angels?

KingsGambit
01-29-2014, 10:01 AM
What reason do we have to believe that demons are anything other than fallen angels?

Because Jude portrays fallen angels them as waiting in chains after their rebellion but the gospel account portrays demons as running around for the time being. Separate terms are used for them so I see no reason to conflate the two.

Zymologist
01-29-2014, 10:13 AM
Because Jude portrays fallen angels them as waiting in chains after their rebellion but the gospel account portrays demons as running around for the time being. Separate terms are used for them so I see no reason to conflate the two.

Interesting. This is a topic that really fascinates me (naturally), but the Bible doesn't have much to say about it.

Cerebrum123
01-29-2014, 10:18 AM
Because Jude portrays fallen angels them as waiting in chains after their rebellion but the gospel account portrays demons as running around for the time being. Separate terms are used for them so I see no reason to conflate the two.

Then what about Satan? Is he a fallen angel, or something else? Jude seems to be speaking about what happened before the flood of Noah*. Do you think that all sinning angels but one were put in chains way back then?

*The link between Tartarus, and the Nephilim(Greek gigantes which was their word for "Titans" which is where the whole "giants" thing came from) seems to be there. Given that Tartarus was where the Titans of Greek mythology were thrown when defeated by the Greek pantheon.

http://www.tektonics.org/gk/gen6.php
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfTSpFhiyB8

KingsGambit
01-29-2014, 10:18 AM
Interesting. This is a topic that really fascinates me (naturally), but the Bible doesn't have much to say about it.

Maybe it's just as well that it doesn't. I think CS Lewis was on to something when he said that one mistake was not to believe in devils and that the other was to be obsessed with them.

KingsGambit
01-29-2014, 10:21 AM
Then what about Satan? Is he a fallen angel, or something else? Jude seems to be speaking about what happened before the flood of Noah*. Do you think that all sinning angels but one were put in chains way back then?

*The link between Tartarus, and the Nephilim(Greek gigantes which was their word for "Titans" which is where the whole "giants" thing came from) seems to be there. Given that Tartarus was where the Titans of Greek mythology were thrown when defeated by the Greek pantheon.

http://www.tektonics.org/gk/gen6.php
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfTSpFhiyB8

If there's that much evidence that this is its referent then I suppose that could be a legitimate reason to restrict the scope.

Zymologist
01-29-2014, 10:39 AM
Maybe it's just as well that it doesn't. I think CS Lewis was on to something when he said that one mistake was not to believe in devils and that the other was to be obsessed with them.

Agreed.

JohnnyP
01-29-2014, 03:13 PM
http://www.tektonics.org/gk/gen6.php

From the article:



In my book The Mormon Defenders, I noted that the evidence indicates that Judaism of Jesus' era, before, and after, believed that the "sons of God" in Genesis 6 were fallen angels, and that this understanding is also indicated by 1 Peter.

If referring to the following, I don't consider it to be discussing angels of Noah's time. I think it should be read this way:

JESUS PREACHING TO HUMAN SINNERS IN SHEOL


1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient.

COMPARISON OF BAPTISM TO THE FLOOD


1 Peter 3:20 When once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

In other words I believe 1 Peter 3:20 ought to be split as it moves on to a different subject when discussing Noah's time, 1 Peter 3:19 is not talking about angels who took wives, but about humans.

Cerebrum123
01-29-2014, 03:32 PM
From the article:




If referring to the following, I don't consider it to be discussing angels of Noah's time. I think it should be read this way:

JESUS PREACHING TO HUMAN SINNERS IN SHEOL



COMPARISON OF BAPTISM TO THE FLOOD



In other words I believe 1 Peter 3:20 ought to be split as it moves on to a different subject when discussing Noah's time, 1 Peter 3:19 is not talking about angels who took wives, but about humans.

That doesn't take into account Jude and the mention of Tartarus, and the angels who were there in chains. Then there's the "strange flesh" they went after. As well as what's talked about in 2 Peter 2. All of it together points towards the view of the "sons of God" being the angels bound in chains, in Tartarus.

Jude 1:6-8
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after [a]strange flesh, are exhibited as an [b]example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

1 Peter 3:19-20
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
19 in [a]which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the [b]water.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a [a]preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

Given that in Sodom and Gomorrah, the people tried to be* with angels, I think the above verses, combined with everything else give more than sufficient evidence to accept the "sons of God" as angels.

*Trying to be polite here. :yes:

JohnnyP
01-29-2014, 03:50 PM
I agree with Jude and 2 Peter about angels and the rest of your comments, but I think interpreting 1 Peter 3:19 as referring to angels is entirely off the wall coming from nowhere since it is sandwiched between concepts that deal entirely with human salvation.

Duragizer
01-29-2014, 06:33 PM
What if they wanted to experiment, as some unethical scientists may want to experiment breeding humans and apes?

I assume that they wouldn't need to romance a woman and "get it on" to do so -- they can just show up and POOF! -- the woman is pregnant with some semi-human child.

Of course, I have doubts that an extradimensional being could actually hybridize with a carbon-based lifeform. More likely than not, any child they'd create with a human would be created soley from the woman's own DNA and wouldn't be a true hybrid.

Manwë Súlimo
01-29-2014, 07:11 PM
Even assuming such a thing could happen (and that's a huge if), here's no such thing as "spiritual" genetic material. It's just the usual boring chromosomes and no neat superpowers.

JohnnyP
01-30-2014, 05:04 PM
Even assuming such a thing could happen (and that's a huge if), here's no such thing as "spiritual" genetic material. It's just the usual boring chromosomes and no neat superpowers.

Could spiritual beings mimic the incarnation of Jesus, human flesh/angelic spirits?

37818
01-31-2014, 08:49 PM
Well, it might be, that the so called extra terrestrial alien contacts may very well be the unclean familiar spirits of old.

With that in mind, the following scriptures come to mind:
". . . the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: . . . " -- Ephesians 2:2.
". . . the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: . . . " -- Revelation 12:9.
". . . Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. . . . " -- Romans 13:1.

Manwë Súlimo
01-31-2014, 08:52 PM
Could spiritual beings mimic the incarnation of Jesus, human flesh/angelic spirits?

Sure, but assuming they could procreate (and that's a huge question for me), the offspring would still be fully human and no more or less evil than the rest of us.

JohnnyP
01-31-2014, 09:41 PM
37818: I believe there's a demonic influence in at least some of those experiences, whether also real flesh beings, or deception that they are.

Manwë: Not demidemons?

37818
02-01-2014, 05:49 PM
Sure, but assuming they could procreate (and that's a huge question for me), the offspring would still be fully human and no more or less evil than the rest of us.Two things here, I for one do not believe such "real" apperistions are physical. And if any where, I strongly doubt, such entities could co-mingle with man. (Matthew 22:30.)

Cerebrum123
02-02-2014, 02:03 PM
I agree with Jude and 2 Peter about angels and the rest of your comments, but I think interpreting 1 Peter 3:19 as referring to angels is entirely off the wall coming from nowhere since it is sandwiched between concepts that deal entirely with human salvation.

Fair enough. Perhaps the Tektonics article has a typo, and intended to mention 2 Peter?

I was reading through some material today, and found this.

“The ‘medical examination’ to which abductees are said to be subjected, often accompanied by sadistic sexual manipulation, is reminiscient of the medieval tales of encounters with demons. It makes no sense in a sophisticated or technical framework: any intelligent being equipped with the scientific marvels that UFOs possess would be in a position to achieve any of these alleged scientific objectives in a shorter time and with fewer risks.”
- Dr. Jacques Vallee, Confrontations, p. 13

“A large part of the available UFO literature is closely linked with mysticism and the metaphysical. It deals with subjects like mental telepathy, automatic writing and invisible entities as well as phenomena like poltergeist [ghost] manifestation and ‘possession.’ Many of the UFO reports now being published in the popular press recount alleged incidents that are strikingly similar to demonic possession and psychic phenomena.”
- Lynn E. Catoe, UFOs and Related Subjects: USGPO, 1969; prepared under AFOSR Project Order 67-0002 and 68-0003

Source. (http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/boldly-going-where-no-man-has-gone-before-will-we-find-ets-or-are-we-alone/)

Having experienced demonic activity myself, I tend to think that there may be genuine cases of demonic deception going on here in the form of "alien visitors". Demons aren't stupid. I think that perhaps they are "playing to their audience". People today, at least in the public eye, are less likely to think of aliens as "spiritual beings"(as compared to technically advanced physical beings). I think this helps play into their deceptive methods.

JohnnyP
02-02-2014, 03:50 PM
Having experienced demonic activity myself, I tend to think that there may be genuine cases of demonic deception going on here in the form of "alien visitors". Demons aren't stupid. I think that perhaps they are "playing to their audience". People today, at least in the public eye, are less likely to think of aliens as "spiritual beings"(as compared to technically advanced physical beings). I think this helps play into their deceptive methods.

I agree that's a strong possibility and the following may include something like that:


2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.


Meantime I'm also interested to see how this plays out:

VISUALLY CONFIRMED: Enormous Craft Detected on Moon (http://www.turnerradionetwork.com/news/206-visually-confirmed-enormous-craft-detected-on-moon)

Mystery Moon Object Spotted On Google Moon Has Everyone Baffled (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/01/18/mystery-moon-object-spotted-google_n_4623672.html)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EBzotgriEI

publius
11-02-2014, 01:06 PM
We know there are 'aliens.' Angelic beings are not of this world but are interested in God's relationship with man . Angels apparently have their own languages (1 Cor. 13:1) and are ministering spirits Jesus said His kingdom was not of this world. There is scriptural evidence that heaven is actually a planet, (having streets, rivers, plants, mansions etc.) and the Bible describes different creatures that we know as Angelic beings. They differ from each other in many ways, and their physical descriptions vary.
Q. Could it be that heaven is the capitol of the universe and those beings are perhaps representatives of their home planets?
Demon's on the other hand are obviously disembodied spirits, since they go through dry places (Mat. 12:3) when outside of a body and seek a body to inhabit. Gap theorists largely believe that demons are the disembodied spirits of a pre-Adamite race of earthlings and are known as familiar spirits, (1 Samuel 28:3-19) assigned by a hierarchy of fallen angels, headed up by Lucifer, to one person after another since Adam.
Jesus commands angels and said that at His request, the Father would give him more than 12 legions of angels (Matt. 26:53). Demons on the other hand know that their ultimate fate will come at the hands of Jesus, but don't know when (Mark 5:7).

seanD
11-02-2014, 02:40 PM
Questions for discussion: since angels could take human form such as with the destruction of Sodom, is it possible some could live as ETs in physical form flying UFOs with advanced technology, or living on other planets? When Satan and angels were cast from Heaven, could they have taken on a physical form? Conversely, could what some people think are flying ships actually spirit beings?

Related question, does the Bible and God's Plan in it have any room for aliens and beings not living on earth? Or are we it?

:popcorn:

We can't know for certain because we can't for certain prove what these sightings are and how authentic they are. But if there is an alien encounter, disclosure, or some manifestation in the future that proves irrefutably to a great number of people (including what we look to as "authority" figures in our society) that they exist, we could conclude that they are demons. Based on the effect this would likely have on human consciousness around the world and would follow as a result, we might even conclude that this is the great deception discussed in the bible.

FarEastBird
11-04-2014, 07:19 AM
Questions for discussion: since angels could take human form such as with the destruction of Sodom, is it possible some could live as ETs in physical form flying UFOs with advanced technology, or living on other planets? When Satan and angels were cast from Heaven, could they have taken on a physical form? Conversely, could what some people think are flying ships actually spirit beings?

Related question, does the Bible and God's Plan in it have any room for aliens and beings not living on earth? Or are we it?

:popcorn:
Hebrews said, "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares."

Any stranger, whether it be alien, or mere man, should not influence us of what they are, but of the message they bring. I guess this is the basic point of Hebrews 13:2.

Timothy
12-22-2014, 07:52 PM
Questions for discussion: since angels could take human form such as with the destruction of Sodom, is it possible some could live as ETs in physical form flying UFOs with advanced technology, or living on other planets? When Satan and angels were cast from Heaven, could they have taken on a physical form? Conversely, could what some people think are flying ships actually spirit beings?

Related question, does the Bible and God's Plan in it have any room for aliens and beings not living on earth? Or are we it?

:popcorn:

I thought that they were angels, but to my surprise
they climbed aboard their starship, and headed for the skies.
Come sail away, come sail away, come sail away with me.
Styx
:angel:

Abu Njoroge
04-15-2017, 05:33 AM
As vast as the universe is,most think inside the box and assume that other lifeforms would be carbon based as on earth,thus being under the physical laws of science and nature as we find them here. I think there are elements to our universe that are outside of physics as we know it now. there are laws of physics that have yet to be understood. we are a primitive young race compared to other places. Just my belief.

Abu Njoroge
04-15-2017, 05:41 AM
Perhaps a higher intelligence(children of God),planted dna in various parts of the universe. The watchers of Enoch? I believe all souls go home to God eventually. Some take more lifetimes than others. The fear created by many religions is that the final outcome of the soul is in question and in jepardy of some kind of hell or annihalation. I believe all paths lead us back home. Some will choose the physical realm over the spiritual realm for longer periods of time by choice. Gods spirit is in every atom in existence thus the omnipresence of the eternal One.


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