If god is, and he is a god of love...

[Solly]

...what could he do, what would you like him to do, what couldn't he do.

A thought experiment for religious and a-thiest alike.

If God was a God of love...

Would he send people to hell (punish them)?

Would he intervene when someone was about to be murdered or raped?

Would he intervene when you raised your hand to your child in anger?

Would he stop certain people dying at a certain time?

What would a God who is loving do, if he existed?

This is meant to be serious, don't just give Miss World prattle about World Peace, etc; if you say he should do something, then examine the implications of his doing it.

[seer]

Of course Solly, any form of genuine love would require a degree of moral freedom. A moral freedom that could be used for good or evil. If all the events of our lives and all our action were programmed, then it is hard to see how love (which is involves relation and volition) could be genuine.

[lordsnooty]

Well, he certainly wouldn't send people to hell simply because they didn't believe he existed.

Paul

[Dee Dee Warren]

Good thing He doesn't do that then. No one goes to hell simply because they said that they did not believe in God.

[AcousticJS]

Today @ 01:35 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78316#post78316)
Dee Dee Warren:

Good thing He doesn't do that then. No one goes to hell simply because they said that they did not believe in God.

Spot on! People end up in hell because of the bad stuff they do, like selfish lying, stealing, hating of which no one can say they are innocent.

It's because God is love that He has provided a way out in Jesus for those who choose to take it.

[lordsnooty]

Today @ 01:35 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78316#post78316)
Dee Dee Warren:

Good thing He doesn't do that then. No one goes to hell simply because they said that they did not believe in God.

That might be what you believe, but a huge number of fundamentalists would disagree with you.

Paul

[Sozo]

Actually, people go to hell for what one man did, or they go to heaven for what one man did...



For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Romans 5:17-19

[DivineOb]

Well, I think saying that the christian god doesn't send people to hell for not believing in him is a disingenuous response. He is planning on sending everyone to hell (all have sinned yada yada), and the only thing which can prevent one from going to hell requires one to believe in the christian god, so it amounts to sending people to hell for not believing in him.

My reformulation of what lordsnooty said would be that loving god(s) would never allow someone who had sincerely sought to investigate whether god(s) existed, and was simply unconvinced by the evidence for them, to choose hell. If one is unconvinced by the evidence and simply *cannot* choose to follow god(s) (based on the lack of evidence), does that person really "choose" the consequences of a failure to follow the god(s)?

[cloaked_dagger]

Of course Solly, any form of genuine love would require a degree of moral freedom. A moral freedom that could be used for good or evil. If all the events of our lives and all our action were programmed, then it is hard to see how love (which is involves relation and volition) could be genuine

I think Solly has got the idea...


Would he send people to hell (punish them)?

Hell isn't really a punishment, it's a consequence... (but that's probably a whole other debate in itself...)


What would a God who is loving do, if he existed?

Create a giant, beautiful world where everything is provided for the people whom He created out of love. And when his children (people) disobey him and stray from his love, He sends a divine shepherd to bring his children back to him. That (in my mind) is what loving God would do...

[GPiper]

God's love in unconditional! That to me means he'll not only love us when we are yet sinners but he'll also honor our choices. I beleive God loves us so much that if we choose to live a life that will take us into hell he'll honor our choice.

GPiper

[lordsnooty]

Today @ 02:02 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78325#post78325)
GPiper:

God's love in unconditional! That to me means he'll not only love us when we are yet sinners but he'll also honor our choices. I beleive God loves us so much that if we choose to live a life that will take us into hell he'll honor our choice.

Atheists don't 'choose to go to hell', they don't believe in hell. God must be a right joker if he thinks that the two things are the same.

Paul

[Sozo]

Today @ 08:02 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78325#post78325)
GPiper:

I beleive God loves us so much that if we choose to live a life that will take us into hell he'll honor our choice.

GPiper

Gpiper... do you have any toddlers in your home?

[lordsnooty]

Today @ 01:55 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78324#post78324)
cloaked_dagger:
Create a giant, beautiful world where everything is provided for the people whom He created out of love.

Except adequate water and food?


And when his children (people) disobey him and stray from his love, He sends a divine shepherd to bring his children back to him.

Either that, or flood the whole world and murder them all!

Paul

[cloaked_dagger]

Either that, or flood the whole world and murder them all!

God flooded the world to destroy the Nephilim, who were perverting the human race by having sex with the daughters of men. If God didn't care about us 1. he wouldn't have appointed Noah and 2. don't you think he could have destroyed the whole world with some nuclear-like explosion if he just wanted to murder everybody?


Except adequate water and food?

Uhhhhh.... I don't understand. It seems like there's plenty of food and water to me. I know you'll probably mention starving people in Africa or something, but is that really God's fault? I would have to say it's ours for not taking action and doing something about it

[Solly]

Guys, can we keep this to the thought experiment of what people think a god of love would or should do, rather than just a discussion about the Christian God.

I am interested in hearing particularly what nonChristians think such a God would do, if he existed, and how that would work out in practice, hence the examples beyond just the fact of hell.

Let's see if we can talk without always taking up positions.
Perhaps I should move this to Philosophy...

[cloaked_dagger]

Sorry about that Solly...:smile:

[Solly]

ego te absolvo

[Sher]

Today @ 08:55 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78323#post78323)
DivineOb:

[...] does that person really "choose" the consequences of a failure to follow the god(s)?

~P. S. Sorry, Solly ... back OT ...

DivineOb ... I have answered this question here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3595)

[NSMinistries]

Today @ 08:08 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78331#post78331)
Sozo:



Gpiper... do you have any toddlers in your home?


My answer to this comment would be God's love in very Unconditional. Unlike or love to those around us. He allows us to make our mistakes and still is there when we crawl back. With our kids we are selfish and don't want to see them hurt because it also hurts us.

[Solly]

s'arright SherBear, I saw you were working on something.

[Sher]

Today @ 09:39 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78367#post78367)
Solly:

s'arright SherBear, I saw you were working on something.
I moved it to another thread for ya :smile:


A God of love is just ... enforcing punishment where it is needed for the advancement of good ... even if the punished don't like it.

[tgamble]

Today @ 02:32 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78357#post78357)
SherBear:
In this same way, God created an instruction book ... warning us of the dangers. He sent His only Son to die for our sins ... to take our place so that we can again fellowship with Him. He often thumps us on the head to see where we are erring ... and provided Christ as Intercessory ... all to warn us of those consequences of failure to follow His sovereignty ... He is more loving,

The difference is that there is actual evidence that drugs (some of em anyway) are deadly.

There is NO evidence at all that God created any instruction book, there is no evidence that he sent his only son to die. All that is merely Christian dogma. It's religious belief based on faith.

What would a loving God be like? For starters, we wouldn't have things like

Alzheimers

huntington's

parkinson's

NF

diabetes

polio

small pox

cancer and other deadly things like that.

There wouldn't be any SIDS, miscarriges, genetic disorders causing paralysis, blindness, deafness etc. etc. etc.

He wouldn't allow things like the Holocaust or September 11th to occur and would intervene with actions like rape, murder, genocide etc. The free will excuse just doesn't make any sense.

If Christians really believed in free will the way they speak of it when defending against the argument from evil/suffering, they would want to scrap the entire justice system. They wouldn't want to take away the free will to choose abortion!

Not only human caused cruelity but also famine, draughts, floods, earthquakes, valcanoes and other major catastrophes that cause massive death counts.

[tgamble]

Today @ 02:19 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78340#post78340)
cloaked_dagger:

Uhhhhh.... I don't understand. It seems like there's plenty of food and water to me. I know you'll probably mention starving people in Africa or something, but is that really God's fault? I would have to say it's ours for not taking action and doing something about it

You say it's our fault for NOT doing something about it, yet at the same time excuse God for not doing anything about it either.

How does that work?

If humans doing nothing is wrong, then why is God doing nothing NOT wrong?

Additionally, what humans can do and what God can do is vastly different. God surely has the power to create better farming conditions, clean water, cures dor dicease etc. At least humans are trying to do something about it. God doesn't do anything at all.

[Sozo]

Today @ 08:38 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78364#post78364)
NSMinistries:




My answer to this comment would be God's love in very Unconditional. Unlike or love to those around us. He allows us to make our mistakes and still is there when we crawl back. With our kids we are selfish and don't want to see them hurt because it also hurts us.

I don't allow my children to make mistakes, because I love them, and because they are too ignorant to make the right decisions.

[tgamble]

Today @ 10:40 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78247#post78247)
Solly:

...what could he do, what would you like him to do, what couldn't he do.


I fail to see what being a god of love has to do with ability.

I'd like him to wipe out suffering caused by dicease and natural disasters for starters. What couldn't he do?

He couldn't stand and watch someone being raped and murdered and not do anything. He couldn't allow the holocaust and terrorist attacks to occur.


Would he send people to hell (punish them)?

No.


Would he intervene when someone was about to be murdered or raped?

Let me put it this way. If there was a situation where a person (a cop for example) witnessed an obduction, rape and murder and did nothing to prevent it, would you consider him a decent person?


Would he intervene when you raised your hand to your child in anger?

You talking about spanking or child abuse?


Would he stop certain people dying at a certain time?

You mean from cancer or SIDS? Wouldn't you? If God doesn't and we have to assume that he has a good reason, isn't it insulting to him to ignore his example and do the opposite? It's basically saying that he's wrong to do nothing!

As for consequences (ie. over population or whateveR) an all powerful God wouldn't have to worry about such things. He'd be able to create solutions that solve problems and don't cause any extra ones.

[NSMinistries]

Today @ 08:56 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78394#post78394)
Sozo:



I don't allow my children to make mistakes, because I love them, and because they are too ignorant to make the right decisions.

You can't always be there to hold their hand and walk them through the right things to do. Some mistakes have to be corrected and lessons learned the hard way or they won't grow up...

[NSMinistries]

By the way nice to talk with you again Sozo:teeth:

[Sozo]

Today @ 09:08 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78402#post78402)
NSMinistries:



You can't always be there to hold their hand and walk them through the right things to do. Some mistakes have to be corrected and lessons learned the hard way or they won't grow up...


Thank you for the liberal psychiatric community's opinion on raising kids. I'll stick with God's opinion.

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."

[Sozo]

Nice talking to you too! :smile:

[NSMinistries]

Today @ 09:13 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78406#post78406)
Sozo:




Thank you for the liberal psychiatric community's opinion on raising kids. I'll stick with God's opinion.

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."

"We all go a little mad sometimes."

[Sozo]

Today @ 09:19 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78414#post78414)
NSMinistries:



"We all go a little mad sometimes."

If only they could create a pill for raising kids :lol:
















(Give them enough time, and I'm sure they will) :no:

[NSMinistries]

Today @ 09:23 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78418#post78418)
Sozo:



If only they could create a pill for raising kids :lol:
















(Give them enough time, and I'm sure they will) :no:

With all the kids on pills now I thought they had...

[Sozo]

Today @ 09:35 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78428#post78428)
NSMinistries:



With all the kids on pills now I thought they had...

I was being facetious.

[NSMinistries]

Today @ 09:37 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78433#post78433)
Sozo:



I was being facetious.

I know, just getting your goat...:poke:

[Sozo]

And now, back to our program...


If God was a God of love...

Would he send people to hell (punish them)?

Would he intervene when someone was about to be murdered or raped?

Would he intervene when you raised your hand to your child in anger?

Would he stop certain people dying at a certain time?

What would a God who is loving do, if he existed?

He would allow us to see our need for something greater than ourselves, so that we would not depend on ourselves.

A loving God would provide the hope that places us above our circumstances, even though we still dwell in the midst of them.

[DBoone]

Solly's initial statement suggests that we discuss the actions of the Biblical God, but still it would be valuable to hear comments from faiths other than Judeo-Christian.

But since I am a Christian I'll be answering from that perspective.

To begin with, hell was created by God for the devil and his angels, but when we side with the devil we reap the same consequences. A loving God would do exactly what the Bible says He's done. Love involves free choice and since God is holy if people choose to to be unholy they separate themselves from God by their sin. Of course even the loving God has taken this into account in sending Christ as the Lamb of God, read John 3:16.

God is not only loving but He is also just and holy, so I don't see why the issue of punishing sin is so disturbing to people, except that they want the right to choose to live their life how they want but to be exempt of any consequence. Well God does not play favorites, if he was not going to punish sin He also would not reward obedience, and that would definitely be considered unloving.

Now without getting too much into the history of God's covenants with Man, they all are designed for Man to enter into a relationship with God thru faith in Him. In each covenant He makes with Man, faith also involves obedience. When we are faithful and obedient to God we reap blessing and life, and when we are unfaithful and disobedient we reap destruction and death. But God gives us that choice, He says "Choose you this day, life or death, blessing or cursing."

And saying we go to hell without any chance to believe in God is ludicrous, especially in this day and age when the Gospel is preached virtually around the world, and even then where it has been yet preached, God has accounted for that as well, read Romans. The Biblical text is very clear that we have walked away from Him, and that we suffer the consequences of our actions, both in this life and the life hereafter, to turn to God and live or to die in our sin. And the position of the Atheist is very weak here, "You never gave us enough information to make an educated choice to believe in You." Well, whose standard are you using to judge the evidence? Your own human, imperfect, and incomplete frame of reference. Whereas God has revealed Himself to us. Every account of the revelation of God to Man can be read in the Bible, written down for our benefit. The pinnacle of that revelation was when Jesus comes to Earth, empties Himself to become a man and dies in our stead. But y'know, by today's standards that just ain't enough. Also the Bible says in Romans that God has revealed himself both in the things that can be seen and the things that cannot be seen. Why do our heart's codemn us when we sin? Because our hearts know that we are here on this earth for a higher purpose. Why even when we say that we don't believe in God do we say we are spiritual? Because we know in our hearts that the spiritual world exists and we function on that level as well as in the natural.

God loves us even more than we love ourselves. That much is evident in the fact that we would be perfectly happy to live our lives in sin and ignorance, but God has shown us a better way in Christ. So if you're reading this far, the choice is yours.

[Solly]

DBoone; not the Christian God specifically, but certainly a personal god, as opposed to an impersonal "divine force"

[DBoone]

I think it would be helpful to define what a loving action might be to really make the most of this discussion.

For example some people insist that tolerance is a necessary attribute while others feel it is more loving to establish clear boundaries for conduct.

Let's look at God in this light. Would we really want a God who is tolerant of all things?

[Sher]

Today @ 12:42 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78547#post78547)
DBoone:

I think it would be helpful to define what a loving action might be to really make the most of this discussion.

For example some people insist that tolerance is a necessary attribute while others feel it is more loving to establish clear boundaries for conduct.

Let's look at God in this light. Would we really want a God who is tolerant of all things? I would adjust your second paragraph to say "complete tolerance", as you indicate in your third paragraph ... God is already VERY tolerant :smile:

Clear boundaries for conduct are needed for any person ... and definitely for any society ... or we would have anarchy (complete disorder).

I wouldn't want God to be omnitolerant, any more than I would want to be completely tolerant with my son. Laws exist for a reason, and all humans have to follow them or suffer the consequences ... the Laws of God are no different.

[GPiper]

Today @ 02:08 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78331#post78331)
Sozo:



Gpiper... do you have any toddlers in your home?


No toddlers but I do have two grandson's 9 and 7 that occasionally come on scene!

[DBoone]

Thanks SherBear, that's exactly what I wanted to say, but I had a mental block when I tried to modify the word 'tolerant'.

You're right. Whenever God spoke a judgement against a nation in the OT it was only after decades and sometimes centuries of warning on God's part. And this raises an interesting point: If these were pagan nations in the OT and they professed to follow different gods than the Biblical One, then how did God warn these people of their sin? The same way He speaks to all of us, in our hearts. I'm not excluding the preaching of His word, either.

So I would say that God is very tolerant. He doesn't just drop a bomb on us when we sin. He tries to reason with us first.