Vessels of Wrath

[seer]

Romans 9:22-24

"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"


Calvinist often assume that the vessels of wrath spoken of in this verse are all unbelieving men. But if one follows Paul's logic through Romans Chapter's 9,10,11 it is more than obvious that the vessels of wrath Paul is speaking of is restricted to one class of people - the unbelieving Jews.

Now it is true that all men are by nature children of wrath, but that is not what Paul is getting at here.

So if one reads these chapters with an open mind, he will see that there are two main groups in these passages: The Church, made up of both Jews and Gentiles and,as I said, unbelieving Jews.

Now in verses 23,24 Paul makes it clear that the vessels of mercy are the believers. But he doesn't stop there and as we follow his reasoning the vessels of wrath become clear.

Vs. 30-33

"What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith; but that Israel who pursued the righteousness which is based on law did not succeed in fulfilling that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it through faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make men stumble, a rock that will make them fall; and he who believes in him will not be put to shame."

Here still in chapter nine Paul points to the unbelieving Jews.

10:21

"But of Israel he says, All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people."

Again the vessels of wrath that God "endured with much patience."

The same men that God hardened:

11:7,8

"What then? Israel failed to obtain what it sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day."

The same broken off branches of 11:17

"But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree."

Vs. 25

"Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in."

Yes God will harden whom He will (more can be said on that later) but in the context of Romans 9,10,11 the vessels of wrath,the hardened ones,are specifically the unbelieving Jews. Not all unbelievers in general.

[Blake Reas]

I agree that Paul is speaking of the nation of Israel in the verses 1-6. But lets look at what he actually means. He is worried about his kinsmen the Jewish nation it is not why in the context of history that he is worried but he is worried about there very Salvation. In Romans 9:3 he says he is "willing to be cutt off from Christ because his fellow Israelites are not saved at that time. So Paul is asking has the word of God failed? NO! read Romans 9:6. The question of 1-6 is why aren't Paul's fellow kinsmen saved? V. 6 therefore must be interpreted in that reference that Israel is not saved, but why? Paul starts to unpack his argument after this of why the promise of God has not failed.
Romans 9:6-29 also shows that Paul is speaking of Salvation. Paul argues that just because someone is from the ethnic background of Israel it does not mean that they are saved (9:6-9) It is the Children of the promise of Abraham that are saved. Taking an argument from Tom Schreiner:
The phrases the Children of God ( tekna tes epangelias 9:8 and children of the promise (tekna tou theou 9:8) always refer in Paul's writings to those who are saved children of God (Cf. 8:16; Phil 2:15; Gal 4:28)

While this discussion is not talking about all Christians it is talking about the Salvation of the elect of Israel or the remnant. So why would we suppose that there is not a elect with the Gentiles? The point will still stand. Since I have now dealt with the first part of Romans 9 I will skip down to your exegesis of 9:22-24.

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his poer has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared before hand for glory------even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only byt also from the Gentiles. As indeed he says in Hosea:
Those who were not my people I
will calle my people
and her who was not beloved
I will call beloved
And in the very place where it
was said to them, You are
not my people
ther ethey will be called sons
of the living God.
He goes on to quote Isaiah that also expounds this truth. So why is it that you just stopped at verse 24? It seems rather odd that you would charge the Calvinist for not taking the passage in context.:huh:
So what we have in v. 24 is this that God has called some out of the Gentiles and some out of the Jews how do we explain this? What is the meaning of call? Yes the Gentiles do believe by faith but it is the faith that God has given them. This is exactly the point some of Israel has been blinded and hardened 11: 7-36 to make room for the Gentiles and humble the Jews.
I would also like to add that your point of him hardening the Jews actually supports the Calvinist view! It shows that it is exactly how God works. He saves some and grafts in the Gentiles for his purposes namely to bring glory to himself.
Lets move on shall we? In Romans Paul says something else that is even more excellent: God has not rejected those whom he foreknew (11:2) Paul is pointing out that some of Israel has indeed been saved because he himself is a jew! He goes on in 11:3-6:

Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left and they seek my life. But what is God's Reply to him? I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal. So too at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is not longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

I could also supply some passages from the man Christ himself but I guess you could go read John 6 yourself. :thumb:

By His Grace For His Glory
Blake

[seer]

Thanks Blake, but my point remains; the vessels of wrath in the context are unbelieving Jews,that is clear to the objective reader. And I have no doubt that Paul is speaking of salvation when concerning the church. But it does not follow that the destruction extends (in context) to anyone but the unbelieving jews. Since Paul brings in the unbelieving jews within a few verses and speaks of them through the next two chapters.

And a side point. God did not aribitraily decide to harden the majority of Jews:

"But of Israel he says, All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people."

This is a Judgement for their past and continual disobedience.

But of course this hardening is only temporary:

"Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may receive MERCY. "

The very people He hardens, are the same ones He shows mercy too...

[Blake Reas]

Today @ 01:03 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78970#post78970)
seer:

Thanks Blake, but my point remains; the vessels of wrath in the context are unbelieving Jews,that is clear to the objective reader. And I have no doubt that Paul is speaking of salvation when concerning the church. But it does not follow that the destruction extends (in context) to anyone but the unbelieving jews. Since Paul brings in the unbelieving jews within a few verses and speaks of them through the next two chapters.

And a side point. God did not aribitraily decide to harden the majority of Jews:

"But of Israel he says, All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people."

This is a Judgement for their past and continual disobedience.

But of course this hardening is only temporary:

"Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may receive MERCY. "

The very people He hardens, are the same ones He shows mercy too...

Seer,
I agree with your assessment. I think you missed my point though when dealing with verse 24 I think it hurts you a little also verse 23 before that. It specifically talks about God hand picking Gentiles. I actually have been thrown into some confusion lately by reading some biblical theology I guess we all work our way through these issues ehh? :shrug:
By His Grace For His Glory,
Blake

[seer]

I agree with your assessment.

Great - you agree that the vessels are the unbelieving Jews. Not all unbelievers in general.

It specifically talks about God hand picking Gentiles. I actually have been thrown into some confusion lately by reading some biblical theology I guess we all work our way through these issues ehh?

Of course,God picks those who respond to Him. No problem.:cheers:

And perhaps you should study this for a while:

http://www.godrules.net/library/arminius/arminius.htm


; )

[Blake Reas]

Today @ 01:29 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78992#post78992)
seer:



Great - you agree that the vessels are the unbelieving Jews. Not all unbelievers in general.



Of course,God picks those who respond to Him. No problem.:cheers:

And perhaps you should study this for a while:

http://www.godrules.net/library/arminius/arminius.htm


; )

Seer,

Sorry if I was not clear. I think that it starts out asking the question why isn't all of Israel saved? Paul answers because God chooses some and not others. So I do not think we agree in the way you want us to.
By His Grace For HIs Glory
Blake
:cheers:

[seer]

I think that it starts out asking the question why isn't all of Israel saved? Paul answers because God chooses some and not others. So I do not think we agree in the way you want us to.

Who is "us?" I have some thoughts on that subject,and perhaps I will start a new thread,but my ONLY point in this thread was to point out who the vessels of wrath were in context. And remember Paul says that the same ones God hardens are the same ones He will show mercy too.

And all Israel will be saved...

[Blake Reas]

Today @ 02:01 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=79016#post79016)
seer:



Who is "us?" I have some thoughts on that subject,and perhaps I will start a new thread,but my ONLY point in this thread was to point out who the vessels of wrath were in context. And remember Paul says that the same ones God hardens are the same ones He will show mercy too.

And all Israel will be saved...

The question is who is Israel now? Paul seems to equate the Gentiles in also since they are now "grafted" into the family of God. Does it mean both? The concept of Remnant runs all throughout the OT. It is the fact that God sets out some to be saved and others not to be.

Blake

[Gavin]

Seer,

first, great signature quote. :thumb:

Romans 9:22-24

"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"


Calvinist often assume that the vessels of wrath spoken of in this verse are all unbelieving men. But if one follows Paul's logic through Romans Chapter's 9,10,11 it is more than obvious that the vessels of wrath Paul is speaking of is restricted to one class of people - the unbelieving Jews.

Now it is true that all men are by nature children of wrath, but that is not what Paul is getting at here.

So if one reads these chapters with an open mind, he will see that there are two main groups in these passages: The Church, made up of both Jews and Gentiles and,as I said, unbelieving Jews.

Now in verses 23,24 Paul makes it clear that the vessels of mercy are the believers. But he doesn't stop there and as we follow his reasoning the vessels of wrath become clear.

Vs. 30-33

"What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith; but that Israel who pursued the righteousness which is based on law did not succeed in fulfilling that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it through faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make men stumble, a rock that will make them fall; and he who believes in him will not be put to shame."

Here still in chapter nine Paul points to the unbelieving Jews.

10:21

"But of Israel he says, All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people."

Again the vessels of wrath that God "endured with much patience."

The same men that God hardened:

11:7,8

"What then? Israel failed to obtain what it sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day."

The same broken off branches of 11:17

"But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree."

Vs. 25

"Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in."

Yes God will harden whom He will (more can be said on that later) but in the context of Romans 9,10,11 the vessels of wrath,the hardened ones,are specifically the unbelieving Jews. Not all unbelievers in general.

Even if you conclusion is true (which I am not sure I am willing to grant), how does it help you any? God is still hardening people to their unrepentance for the purpose of his glory, is he not?

PS - you are Arminian?

[seer]

The question is who is Israel now? Paul seems to equate the Gentiles in also since they are now "grafted" into the family of God. Does it mean both? The concept of Remnant runs all throughout the OT. It is the fact that God sets out some to be saved and others not to be.

Well Blake, in the context 11:25-31 it has to be national Israel,the unbelieving Jews:

"Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a HARDENING has come upon part of ISRAEL, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all ISRAEL will be saved; as it is written, The Deliverer will come from ZION, he will banish ungodliness from JACOB; and this will be my covenant with THEM when I take away THEIR sins. As regards the gospel THEY are ENEMIES of God, for your sake; but as regards election THEY are BELOVED for the sake of their forefathers.For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of THEIR disobedience, so THEY have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you THEY also may receive MERCY.

Pretty clear,eh?

[seer]

Even if you conclusion is true (which I am not sure I am willing to grant), how does it help you any? God is still hardening people to their unrepentance for the purpose of his glory, is he not?

I think the conclusion is quite clear. As far as the hardening, look at my last post to Blake, the same ones God hardens He also will have mercy on.

PS - you are Arminian?

This week....:huh:

[Blake Reas]

Today @ 02:36 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=79040#post79040)
seer:



I think the conclusion is quite clear. As far as the hardening, look at my last post to Blake, the same ones God hardens He also will have mercy on.



This week....:huh:
Those are some good points. Darn you! Now I have to jumble this around in my head all week!
:bawl:

By His Grace For His Glory
Blake

[seer]

Those are some good points. Darn you! Now I have to jumble this around in my head all week!

I enjoy talking to you Blake, you seem to be searching for the truth rather than being wed to a "system."

[Arminian]

To me, the whole "hardening" issue really misses the point, since it is no different than the Isaianic hardening. But that's a different issue. Anyhow, the issue is not one of individualism, but of covenant identity, the elect, which is joined through faith, and not before faith.

I've posted what follows before, so those who have read it will have to forgive me for posting it agian. I'd like you to read it because it draws upon two sources of Jewish material to show that Paul is using the imagery exactly as I have described. The first source referenced is Sirach, and the second is Jeremiah.

.......

The notion of "vessels" is often used to support the indiviual election theory. I think a parallel is quite probable with Rom 9 and Sirach, whether it be a direct allusion or a commonly understood tradition. And so we should take a close look at Sirach and Romans.

The Book of Sirach (The Wisdom of Ben Sira or Ecclesiasticus in many Latin Vulgate mss) was written by Ben Sira (Prologue by his grandson) during a time of turmoil in the Jewish community, early in the second century B.C.

At the time the Jews in Palestine were not a free people, but were subject to "other nations" who continually fought to gain control of this strategically important territory. Palestine had been under the control of Persia for two centuries. In 332 B.C. Alexander the Great conquered the Persian empire and gained control. Upon his death his vast empire was divided among his four generals. Two of those generals, Ptolemy (Egyptian) and Seleucus
(Syrian), became rivals for control. Their dynasties contended for the land for years to come.

In 301 the Ptolemaic (Egyptian) dynasty finally prevailed and controlled Palestine. Under their control the Jews were able to maintain their religious and social independence generally, the high priest remained the spiritual leader of the covenant community, though they did continue to pay taxes to Egypt.

Meanwhile the Seleucid (Syrian) kings sought to wrest control from Egypt. Finally Antiochus III, a Seleucid, conquered the armies of Ptolemy V. The land holy to the covenant people, the Jews, became subject to Seleucid control.

Significant to Jewish identity as God's chosen people, chosen out from among the "other peoples" of the world, was the impact this foreign rule was having on the nation. This was a period of intense Hellenization, policies cultivated from the time of Alexander the Great. Issues of Greek philosophy, religion and culture was impacting considerably the religious faith and practice of the Jewish community, a people was presumably to be "set apart"
from these nations.

Ben Sira's purpose in writing his book was to demonstrate to his fellow Jews where true wisdom resided: in Jerusalem and not Athens. That is, the Jews were God's covenant people to whom had been given His Wisdom. To reinforce Jewish social and religious integrity the author gloried in the Jewish covenantal distinctiveness and separated way of life. He combined the Jewish wisdom tradition and the traditions in the Book of Moses.

The central point of Ben Sira is that Israel is God's chosen, His portion, whereas the other nations have rulers of their own.

He appointed a ruler for every nation, but Israel is the Lord's
own portion. (ch. 17)

The book is divided into three major divisions with a Prologue and Conclusion:

Grandson's Prologue
Division I (1:1-23:28)
Division II (24:1-43:33)
Division III (44:1-50:24)
Conclusion (50:25-51:30)

As I posted before, Sirach 24:1-22 is "The Praise of Wisdom," a poem which praises personified wisdom, bringing to a climax the "wisdom" poems in Sirach and transitioning into the second division. In these poems hidden wisdom is found in the Lord and is available to those who are in solidarity with His people, Israel; for it is through Israel that the Lord demonstrates and manifests His wisdom, in the covenant and Mosaic law.

This Wisdom poem has 35 lines, as it is patterned after Proverbs 8 which has 35 lines. Personified Wisdom delivers a 22-line speech. Though Wisdom holds sway over all peoples and nations she dwells in Jerusalem, having Israel, "the portion of the Lord," as her inheritance. Ben Sira then identifies Wisdom with the law. The place of God's Wisdom as established at Sinai is Jerusalem, the nation of Israel.

Stanza 1 (24:3-7) tells of Wisdom's origin and part in the creation of the world. The stanza concludes with Wisdom's quest for rest and residence. Human seeking and finding wisdom is portrayed in an inverted form, Wisdom's seeking and finding an abode:

Among all these I sought a resting place;
in whose territory should I abide? (v. 7)

Stanza 2 (24:8-12) tells of the answer to that quest. Where does Wisdom find her abode, in whom does Wisdom dwell?

Then the Creator of all things gave me a command, and My
Creator chose the place for my tent. He said, "Make your
dwelling in Jacob, and in Israel make your inheritance" ... and
so I was established in Zion. Thus in the beloved city He gave
me a resting place, and in Jerusalem was my domain. I took
root in an honored people, in the portion of the Lord, His
heritage. (vv. 8, 10b-12)

For Ben Sira Israel was the Lord's elect, His portion, His heritage. This is the language of collective solidarity. Israel, the corporate whole, is the Lord's portion, the abiding place of His wisdom. Therein alone is to be found His wisdom. In wisdom is found deliverance.

Stanza 3 (24:13-17) tells of Wisdom taking root in Jerusalem and flourishing like a tree. And the conclusion of the poem is Wisdom's invitation to her feast.

Come to me, you who desire me, and eat your fill of my fruits.
For the memory of me is sweeter than honey, and the possession
of me sweeter than the honeycomb ... Whoever obeys me will not
be put to shame, and those who work with me will not sin. (vv.
19-20, 22)

The call is to join the Lord's elect, Israel. To find wisdom is to find deliverance and rest. Wisdom, deliverance and rest is found only in solidarity with God's elect. The call of Wisdom is to join the elect body, to dwell in Zion, in Jerusalem His chosen city, the city of His inheritance.

Though Israel, Zion and Jerusalem are the dwelling place of God's Wisdom, the individual Jew must also make a choice. Will they be faithful to God's covenant? Or will they fall away from the covenant? First, their falling away from the covenant (and God's wisdom which dwells in Israel) is not God's doing:

Do not say, "It was the Lord's doing that I fell away." For He does
not do what He hates. Do not say, "It was He who led me astray."
For He has no need of the sinful. (15:11-12)

Second, the "fear of the Lord" is the beginning of wisdom. The wise, those who dwell faithfully in Israel in God's wisdom, thus in covenant harmony, these are the ones who fear the Lord and hate sin:

The Lord hates all abominations; such things are not loved who
fear Him. (15:13)

Third, each has a choice to make in the midst of their present turmoil among the nations from whom they had been chosen. One can choose to remain in or fall away from Israel and the covenant wherein resides God's Wisdom:

It was He who created humankind in the beginning, and He left
them in the power of their own free choice. If you choose,
you can keep the commandments, and to act faithfully is a matter
of your own free choice. He has placed before you fire and water;
stretch out your hand for whichever you choose. Before each
person is life and death, and whichever one chooses will be
given. (15:14-17)

Sira's timely message to the Jewish people is that out of all of creation the Lord has elected His portion, Israel. There His wisdom dwells for those who seek it. Deliverance is in solidarity with God's elect. The Lord has elected the people of Israel by an eternal covenant. Yet, not "every Jew" will be delivered, but "to those who repent He grants a return" (17:24). Those who remain faithful to Torah and wisdom (contained in Sirach) will be
delivered. Faithfulness to Torah is solidarity with the covenant people, the "portion of the Lord." Solidarity with all other peoples results in repayment and recompense. Those who fall away from Israel, God's elect portion, will be given what they choose.

As stated above, the Wisdom poem of chapter 24 is the transition from the Wisdom poems (Division I) to a series of admonitions for the people to observe in life among the nations (Division II). Sira admonishes by way of sections of precept, proverb and beatitude:

a. 25:1-26:27
b. 26:28-29:20
c. 29:21-33:18
d. 33:19-38:23
e. 38:24-41:13
f. 41:14-43:33

For now we will focus on section "c" (29:21-33:18). In the sub-section (32:14-33:6) we find precepts and directives identifying the fear of the Lord and the maintenance of the covenant as that for which one will never be put to shame, whereas the sinner, the fool, suffers loss.

The one who seeks God will accept His discipline, and those who
rise early to seek Him will find favor. The one who seeks the law
will be filled with it, but the hypocrite will stumble at it ...
Those who fear the Lord will form true judgments, and they will
kindle righteous deeds like a light. The sinner will find a decision
according to his liking ... Guard yourself in every act, for this is
the keeping of the commandments. (32:14-17, 23)

The one who keeps the law preserves himself, and the one who
trusts the Lord will not suffer loss. No evil will befall the one
who fears the Lord, but in trials such a one will be rescued again
and again. The wise will not hate the law ... The sensible person
will trust in the law; for such a one the law is as dependable as
a divine oracle. (32:24-33:3).

The references here to the law ("seeking" "keeping" "not hating" "trusting") are not references to doing the law in order to "enter" the covenant. The Jew was already in the covenant by having been born a Jew. Being a member of Israel was being in covenant relationship, for Israel was God's elect people. These references are to the Jew's responsibility to "maintain" that covenant relationship. The law was the center of covenant life; the law
was the wisdom of God. Fear of the Lord and wisdom maintained covenant. These are found in Israel, Jerusalem, Zion.

Ben Sira's purpose in writing his book was to demonstrate to his fellow Jews where true wisdom resided: in Jerusalem. That is, the Jews were God's covenant people to whom had been given His Wisdom. He here reinforces Jewish social and religious integrity, glorying in the Jewish distinctiveness and separated way of life.

In the sub-section (33:7-18) we find a series of pairs which interestingly merges Greek conceptuality (classification into categories of opposites) with Jewish Wisdom categories. As Sira later says: "All things come in pairs, one opposite the other, and He has made nothing incomplete" (42:24).

Why is one day more important than another, when all the
daylight in the year is from the sun? By the Lord's wisdom
they were distinguished, and He appointed the different
seasons and festivals. Some days He exalted and hallowed,
and some He made ordinary days. (7-9)

The first opposing pair is direct reference to the Jewish calender of weeks, months and festivals based on the luner year (cf. 43:6-8; 39:12; 50:6). "Exalted and hallowed" days are the "seasons and festivals" marking and celebrating the covenant at Sinai where God chose Israel from among the nations and made them a holy and set apart nation. The contrast is to the "ordinary days" of the nations, those outside the covenant of the Lord. Sira's
focus here is to direct the reader's attention to the distinction between themselves and the surrounding nations who were causing such turmoil. They can rest in their elect status as God's portion, His elect covenant people.

All human beings come from the ground, and humankind was
created out of the dust. In the fullness of His knowledge He
distinguished them and appointed their different ways. Some
He blessed and exalted and some He made holy and brought near
to Himself; but some He cursed and brought low, and turned
them out of their place. (10-12)

The second opposing pair further distinguishes the "blessed" covenant people Israel "appointed" (elected to be His special covenant people) to be His portion from among the other nations who remained outside the blessing. Israel had been "blessed" (in Abraham their father) and "exalted" (chosen as His portion) and "made holy" (set apart from the other nations) and "brought near" (through their exclusive priesthood) to the Lord.

But the opposite to this is His cursing of the other nations. In His exaltation of Israel the other nations outside the Sinai covenant are "brought low." This is not a reference to each non-Jew being cursed to an eternal damnation. Deliverance and wisdom were always available to the nations; they need only become members of Israel, the dwelling place of God's Wisdom, the exclusive source of life. Solidarity with the elect people was
deliverance. Sira's purpose is to re-establish the integrity of the elect nation, Israel, in the minds of his troubled readers.

Like clay in the hand of the potter, to be molded as He pleases,
so all are in the hand of their Maker, to be given whatever He
decides. (13)

Here we see the work of the electing Lord as a potter, the Lord who chose Israel to be His portion out of and instead of the other nations as a potter molds clay as he pleases.

The pairs continue:

"good ... evil"
"life ... death"
"sinner ... godly"

Sira then concludes:

Look at all the works of the Most High; they come in pairs,
one the opposite the other.

The Lord's works come in pairs. Sira encourages his distraught readers that God has indeed chosen them for good, for life, to be godly. They should take comfort and remain in the Jewish covenant; they should not be swayed by the nations who rule over them, for wisdom does not dwell in their midst.

But the Jew was responsible to remain in the covenant and not fall away by his own free choice. To fall away was to accept the wisdom of the nations; but within the nations dwells only evil, death and sinners. There are "pairs" to God's works, says Sira; and there is a choice to make between following those nations and maintaining their covenant membership within Israel, the dwelling place of God's Wisdom.

[Arminian]

Let's look at a couple sources for Ben Sira's book. It is clear that he merges the Hebrew Wisdom tradition and the Book of Moses (Pentateuch). It appears that he draws from the Prophets as well, as his grandson says he has. Take a look at this parallel from Jeremiah:

This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: "Go
down to the potter's house, and there I will give you my
message." So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw
him working at the wheel. But the pot he was shaping from the
clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into
another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.

Then the word of the Lord came to me: "O house of Israel, can
I not do with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD.
"Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O
house of Israel. If at any time I announce that a nation or
kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that
nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not
inflict on it the disaster I had planned.

And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to
be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does
not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do
for it.

Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in
Jerusalem, 'This is what the Lord says: Look! I am preparing a
disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from
your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your
actions.' But they will reply, 'It's no use. We will continue with
our own plans; each of us will follow the stubbornness of his
evil heart.'"

Therefore this is what the LORD says: "Inquire among the nations:
Who has ever heard anything like this? A most horrible thing has
been done by Virgin Israel. Does the snow of Lebanon ever vanish
from its rocky slopes? Do its cool waters from distant sources
ever cease to flow? Yet my people have forgotten me; they burn
incense to worthless idols, which made them stumble in their
ways and in the ancient paths. They made them walk in bypaths
and on roads not built up. Their land will be laid waste, an object
of lasting scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake
their heads. Like a wind from the east, I will scatter them before
their enemies; I will show them my back and not my face in the
day of their disaster."

They said, "Come, let's make plans against Jeremiah; for the
teaching of the law by the priest will not be lost, nor will
counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophets. So come,
let's attack him with our tongues and pay no attention to anything
he says." (Jer 18:1-18)

The Jews of Ben Sira's day understood all of this "preparing a disaster ... and devising a plan" against Israel and Israel being "laid waste." The understood this as having been behind them, Jeremiah's reference being to the Babylonian Captivity from which the nation had already been restored.

This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: "Go
down to the potter's house, and there I will give you my
message." So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw
him working at the wheel. But the pot he was shaping from the
clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into
another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.

In Second Temple Judaism the restored Jews, the restored house of Israel, believed that THEY were God's "other pot" which He had formed to replace the "marred" pot, those upon whom the Lord had brought disaster and captivity, those who had previously followed the "stubbornness of his evil heart."

Our interest is how the Jews understand the nature of Israel's elect status, and here how Ben Sira reflects that common understanding. The picture is of God electing a nation from among the nations, a clan from among the clans, a family from among the families. Deliverance and possession of Wisdom was not on the basis of individuals being selected as recipients. It was the corporate entity, the body, the collective whole which received the
blessings.

The individual Jew was born into the covenant but nevertheless had to "maintain" their position within the elect body by their own free choice. They could "fall away" from the elect body "by free choice." And the individual Gentile was outside this blessing on the basis of their corporate solidarity with the "other nations," but could nevertheless become a member of the elect nation by choice and thereby receive the blessings.

Now having read Paul we know that Ben Sira and Second Temple Judaism misinterpreted Jeremiah. Jeremiah says:

This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: "Go
down to the potter's house, and there I will give you my
message." So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw
him working at the wheel. But the pot he was shaping from the
clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into
another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him ...

... Then the word of the Lord came to me: "O house of Israel,
can I not do with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD.
"Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O
house of Israel."

The "pot He was shaping from the clay" which became "marred in His hands" was the national Israel, the covenant community established at Mount Sinai. This covenant could not make one righteous. It was weak. It was only a temporary measure until the arrival of the Seed of Abraham in whom God would bless all nation, in whom God would establish a new covenant community.

When the Lord promises to "form it into another pot" He is referring to "that day" when the Seed of Abraham arrives, and one's being a physical Israelite, a Jew, will matter nothing. For in that day all peoples of the world will be blessed with Abraham by faith. There will no longer be "Jew" and "Gentile." But there will only be one people, a new creation in Him, created for good works which the old people ("marred pot") were unable to do. The
new people ("another pot") will be enabled to do it, however, for they will have the law written upon their hearts by the Spirit of God Himself.

But is this fair? Is it a just God who would form a covenant people and then turn from them? Sure, individual Jews may fall away from Holy Israel (God's holy, set apart nation) by disobedience. But would a just God reject His people as a whole? His very own portion from the earth? Hasn't He promised to restore His people to greatness and righteousness? Has He now rejected His covenant people? If so then the very word of the Lord has failed!

These are the questions asked of Paul as he proclaimed his gospel of the arrival of "another pot" and the destruction of the "marred pot." Paul's answer is that the Jews had misread the promise to Abraham. It was to Abraham and "his Seed." Not "seeds" as if the reference is to the earthly nation of Israel (the "marred pot"). But to Jesus, His Anointed Servant who would establish the "true" Israel, the obedient nation ("another pot"), a holy
nation and chosen race as Peter describes it. The Jews had misread the promise. For, as Paul argued

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are
not all Israel who are descended from Israel; neither are they
all children because they are Abraham’s descendants.

God's word has NOT failed; the Jewish reading of that word was in error. For the promise to Abraham was not to be confused with the Sinai covenant, wherein the Jewish nation had been established. There was no longer any "boast in the flesh," that is, boast in physical descent from Abraham, Isaac or Jacob.

That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of
God, but the children of the promise are regarded as
descendants.

Of course, Paul goes to lengths in many of his books to explain who the true descendants of Abraham are: those who are, by faith, in Messiah. Paul continues his explication of the "true Israel" as contrasted to the "marred pot" and His righteousness in His choice.

... for though the twins were not yet born, and had not done
anything good or bad, in order that God’s purpose according to
His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of
Him who calls ... Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau
I hated."

God's choice of His Messianic vehicle of deliverance was a just choice. The physical Jew's complaint that God would be unjust to reject the "marred pot" (the Sinai covenant people) has no merit. God is just in His choices. He has chosen Messiah and has rejected Sinai. Sinai was only temporary. Those who abide in Sinai abide in sin, for there is no longer cover in Sinai; it is obsolete. Those who abide in God's Elect One, Messiah, abide in
the very Wisdom of God.

The Jewish response:

Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?

"If you are right, Paul," according to the Jews, "then God is unjust for finding fault in us, the Jews. For a Jew is a Jew. One cannot resist being Jewish. One cannot change the covenant which formed the Jewish nation, which was His righteous will."

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?
The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make
me like this, will it? Or does not the potter have a right over
the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable
use, and another for common use?"

God is just in reshaping the clay from a "marred pot" into "another pot." For the molded does not answer back to the molder. The Potter has every right over the clay in His hands.

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to
make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of
wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so in order that He
might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy,
which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also
called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

The "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" are the "nations" from whom the nation of Israel had been set apart under Sinai. He had endured until the coming of His Servant, in whom He would make known the riches of His glory. The "us" is the "other pot" composed of both Jew and Gentile together in one covenant in Messiah.

Paul's argument is that the "other pot" is God's elect people, and no longer was the "marred pot" a part of His plan. And the mystery now revealed is that this "other pot" was His plan from the foundation. Messiah, His Elect One, had been chosen from the foundation. And the "other pot" was to be composed of both Jew and Gentile. The Jewish exclusivism of the "marred pot" was no longer a part of His plan.

Paul includes a few more OT texts to support the point:

As He says also in Hosea, I will call those who were not my
people, "My people," and her who was not beloved, "Beloved."

His point is that those who had previously not been a part of the chosen, who in fact had been excluded from the commonwealth, were now included as a part of the elect. For the elect are those who abide in His Elect One. Jewish exclusivism is a thing of the past. All peoples are fellow-heirs in Messiah. Deliverance is open to all peoples. And not on the basis of their becoming members of the elect physical nation, but now on the basis of
their becoming members of the "true" Elect One, by faith.

Wisdom dwells in this new covenant people, for Messiah IS God's Wisdom. Those who join partake in God's Wisdom.

[Blake Reas]

Arminian,

Hey! How is everything going? Anyway I have something very interesting for you. I am sure you have heard of Douglas Wilson anyway I believe he adopts your "staying in the Covenant" in his new book you can get the whole thing on line for Free! Here is the link it is called Reformed is Not Enough. He talks about salvation being objective. I will let the book explain. You can buy a hard copy off of Canon Press.

God Bless,


http://www.christkirk.com/Literature/ReformedIsNotEnough.pdf


[url]

[Blake Reas]

Arminian,

How does this verse out of Sirach play into your over all schem? Just curious:


Sirach 33:7-15

Why is any day better than another, when all the daylight in the year is from the sun? [8] By the Lord's decision they were distinguished, and he appointed the different seasons and feasts;[9] some of them he exalted and hallowed, and some of them had ordinary days. [10] All men are from the ground, and Adam was created from the dust. [11] In the fullness of his knowledge the Lord distinguished them and appointed their different ways [12] Some of them he blesesed and exalted, and some of them he made holy and brought near to himself; but some of them he cursed and brought low, and he turned them out of their place[13] As clay in the hand of the potter- for all his ways are are as he pleases-- So men are in the hand of him who made them, to give them as he decides. [RSV] taken from Piper's "The Justification of God"

This sound predestinarian to me, I may be wrong!

Blake

[Arminian]

Blake,

Hey! How is everything going? Anyway I have something very interesting for you.

Everything is going fine, except I have a sprain and have to keep my leg elevated. It's too hard to use my computer.

[Arminian]

Blake,

How does this verse out of Sirach play into your over all schem? Just curious:


Sirach 33:7-15


This sound predestinarian to me, I may be wrong!

My paper was written to address Piper's misunderstanding, and you'll see those exact verses addressed in my post. Or you can just read almost any other scholar's comments on the verses in question. It's rare that any would disagree with my understanding if they take a contextual approach.

Sirach is written to show that God exalted the Israelites over the rest of humanity. Therefore, he wants them to identify with those God exalted over those he did not. The Jews at the time were moving away from their identity, so they needed to be brought back.

[Blake Reas]

Today @ 09:51 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=80236#post80236)
Arminian:

Blake,



My paper was written to address Piper's misunderstanding, and you'll see those exact verses addressed in my post. Or you can just read almost any other scholar's comments on the verses in question. It's rare that any would disagree with my understanding if they take a contextual approach.

Sirach is written to show that God exalted the Israelites over the rest of humanity. Therefore, he wants them to identify with those God exalted over those he did not. The Jews at the time were moving away from their identity, so they needed to be brought back.

Thanks Arminian! :thumb:


Blake

[Blake Reas]

Yesterday @ 07:44 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=79922#post79922)
Arminian:

Let's look at a couple sources for Ben Sira's book. It is clear that he merges the Hebrew Wisdom tradition and the Book of Moses (Pentateuch). It appears that he draws from the Prophets as well, as his grandson says he has. Take a look at this parallel from Jeremiah:

This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: "Go
down to the potter's house, and there I will give you my
message." So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw
him working at the wheel. But the pot he was shaping from the
clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into
another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.

Then the word of the Lord came to me: "O house of Israel, can
I not do with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD.
"Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O
house of Israel. If at any time I announce that a nation or
kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that
nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not
inflict on it the disaster I had planned.

And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to
be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does
not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do
for it.

Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in
Jerusalem, 'This is what the Lord says: Look! I am preparing a
disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from
your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your
actions.' But they will reply, 'It's no use. We will continue with
our own plans; each of us will follow the stubbornness of his
evil heart.'"

Therefore this is what the LORD says: "Inquire among the nations:
Who has ever heard anything like this? A most horrible thing has
been done by Virgin Israel. Does the snow of Lebanon ever vanish
from its rocky slopes? Do its cool waters from distant sources
ever cease to flow? Yet my people have forgotten me; they burn
incense to worthless idols, which made them stumble in their
ways and in the ancient paths. They made them walk in bypaths
and on roads not built up. Their land will be laid waste, an object
of lasting scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake
their heads. Like a wind from the east, I will scatter them before
their enemies; I will show them my back and not my face in the
day of their disaster."

They said, "Come, let's make plans against Jeremiah; for the
teaching of the law by the priest will not be lost, nor will
counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophets. So come,
let's attack him with our tongues and pay no attention to anything
he says." (Jer 18:1-18)

The Jews of Ben Sira's day understood all of this "preparing a disaster ... and devising a plan" against Israel and Israel being "laid waste." The understood this as having been behind them, Jeremiah's reference being to the Babylonian Captivity from which the nation had already been restored.

This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: "Go
down to the potter's house, and there I will give you my
message." So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw
him working at the wheel. But the pot he was shaping from the
clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into
another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.

In Second Temple Judaism the restored Jews, the restored house of Israel, believed that THEY were God's "other pot" which He had formed to replace the "marred" pot, those upon whom the Lord had brought disaster and captivity, those who had previously followed the "stubbornness of his evil heart."

Our interest is how the Jews understand the nature of Israel's elect status, and here how Ben Sira reflects that common understanding. The picture is of God electing a nation from among the nations, a clan from among the clans, a family from among the families. Deliverance and possession of Wisdom was not on the basis of individuals being selected as recipients. It was the corporate entity, the body, the collective whole which received the
blessings.

The individual Jew was born into the covenant but nevertheless had to "maintain" their position within the elect body by their own free choice. They could "fall away" from the elect body "by free choice." And the individual Gentile was outside this blessing on the basis of their corporate solidarity with the "other nations," but could nevertheless become a member of the elect nation by choice and thereby receive the blessings.

Now having read Paul we know that Ben Sira and Second Temple Judaism misinterpreted Jeremiah. Jeremiah says:

This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: "Go
down to the potter's house, and there I will give you my
message." So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw
him working at the wheel. But the pot he was shaping from the
clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into
another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him ...

... Then the word of the Lord came to me: "O house of Israel,
can I not do with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD.
"Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O
house of Israel."

The "pot He was shaping from the clay" which became "marred in His hands" was the national Israel, the covenant community established at Mount Sinai. This covenant could not make one righteous. It was weak. It was only a temporary measure until the arrival of the Seed of Abraham in whom God would bless all nation, in whom God would establish a new covenant community.

When the Lord promises to "form it into another pot" He is referring to "that day" when the Seed of Abraham arrives, and one's being a physical Israelite, a Jew, will matter nothing. For in that day all peoples of the world will be blessed with Abraham by faith. There will no longer be "Jew" and "Gentile." But there will only be one people, a new creation in Him, created for good works which the old people ("marred pot") were unable to do. The
new people ("another pot") will be enabled to do it, however, for they will have the law written upon their hearts by the Spirit of God Himself.

But is this fair? Is it a just God who would form a covenant people and then turn from them? Sure, individual Jews may fall away from Holy Israel (God's holy, set apart nation) by disobedience. But would a just God reject His people as a whole? His very own portion from the earth? Hasn't He promised to restore His people to greatness and righteousness? Has He now rejected His covenant people? If so then the very word of the Lord has failed!

These are the questions asked of Paul as he proclaimed his gospel of the arrival of "another pot" and the destruction of the "marred pot." Paul's answer is that the Jews had misread the promise to Abraham. It was to Abraham and "his Seed." Not "seeds" as if the reference is to the earthly nation of Israel (the "marred pot"). But to Jesus, His Anointed Servant who would establish the "true" Israel, the obedient nation ("another pot"), a holy
nation and chosen race as Peter describes it. The Jews had misread the promise. For, as Paul argued

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are
not all Israel who are descended from Israel; neither are they
all children because they are Abraham’s descendants.

God's word has NOT failed; the Jewish reading of that word was in error. For the promise to Abraham was not to be confused with the Sinai covenant, wherein the Jewish nation had been established. There was no longer any "boast in the flesh," that is, boast in physical descent from Abraham, Isaac or Jacob.

That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of
God, but the children of the promise are regarded as
descendants.

Of course, Paul goes to lengths in many of his books to explain who the true descendants of Abraham are: those who are, by faith, in Messiah. Paul continues his explication of the "true Israel" as contrasted to the "marred pot" and His righteousness in His choice.

... for though the twins were not yet born, and had not done
anything good or bad, in order that God’s purpose according to
His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of
Him who calls ... Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau
I hated."

God's choice of His Messianic vehicle of deliverance was a just choice. The physical Jew's complaint that God would be unjust to reject the "marred pot" (the Sinai covenant people) has no merit. God is just in His choices. He has chosen Messiah and has rejected Sinai. Sinai was only temporary. Those who abide in Sinai abide in sin, for there is no longer cover in Sinai; it is obsolete. Those who abide in God's Elect One, Messiah, abide in
the very Wisdom of God.

The Jewish response:

Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?

"If you are right, Paul," according to the Jews, "then God is unjust for finding fault in us, the Jews. For a Jew is a Jew. One cannot resist being Jewish. One cannot change the covenant which formed the Jewish nation, which was His righteous will."

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?
The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make
me like this, will it? Or does not the potter have a right over
the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable
use, and another for common use?"

God is just in reshaping the clay from a "marred pot" into "another pot." For the molded does not answer back to the molder. The Potter has every right over the clay in His hands.

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to
make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of
wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so in order that He
might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy,
which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also
called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

The "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" are the "nations" from whom the nation of Israel had been set apart under Sinai. He had endured until the coming of His Servant, in whom He would make known the riches of His glory. The "us" is the "other pot" composed of both Jew and Gentile together in one covenant in Messiah.

Paul's argument is that the "other pot" is God's elect people, and no longer was the "marred pot" a part of His plan. And the mystery now revealed is that this "other pot" was His plan from the foundation. Messiah, His Elect One, had been chosen from the foundation. And the "other pot" was to be composed of both Jew and Gentile. The Jewish exclusivism of the "marred pot" was no longer a part of His plan.

Paul includes a few more OT texts to support the point:

As He says also in Hosea, I will call those who were not my
people, "My people," and her who was not beloved, "Beloved."

His point is that those who had previously not been a part of the chosen, who in fact had been excluded from the commonwealth, were now included as a part of the elect. For the elect are those who abide in His Elect One. Jewish exclusivism is a thing of the past. All peoples are fellow-heirs in Messiah. Deliverance is open to all peoples. And not on the basis of their becoming members of the elect physical nation, but now on the basis of
their becoming members of the "true" Elect One, by faith.

Wisdom dwells in this new covenant people, for Messiah IS God's Wisdom. Those who join partake in God's Wisdom.


Am I correct in saying that this is the perspective of the "new Perspective on Paul" ? The whole thing about getting in and staying in the covenant sounds awful familiar (E.P. Sanders, Dunn, etc?)

God Bless,
Blake

[Arminian]

Am I correct in saying that this is the perspective of the "new Perspective on Paul" ? The whole thing about getting in and staying in the covenant sounds awful familiar (E.P. Sanders, Dunn, etc?)

That is my persepective, so I suppose that my response reflects some of that perspective (If fact, I know it does). However, there is no one "New Perspective." Each "NP" theologian that has played a major role in the marketplace of ideas is different than all the others. From a psycho-social approach, I'd say I'm much more like Sanders. From a theological approach, I'd say I'm more like Hays. From any other approach (with two exceptions), I'd say I'm more like Wright.

Whether or not NP grows or dies on the vine, it has forever changed the way people view Galatians and a number of other major portions of Paul's writings. Things that you used to find in nearly every commentary on the subject will never be proposed again.

But my interpretation of Sirach does not come from NP, even though my paper does have NP content. My understanding of Sirach is the same that most theologains have held for hundreds of years.

[seer]

bump

[Arminian]

Hey, I thought I deleted my posts on this topic. I left the portion on Paul's use Wisdom out of that one.

[Xavier]

Hey, I thought I deleted my posts on this topic. I left the portion on Paul's use Wisdom out of that one.
:huh: