Open View and Genesis 15:12-15

[Blake Reas]

In this passage God tells Abraham explicitly what he is going to do. I am not arguing from a Calvinistic point of view here I will put that aside. This passage can be explained away as all traditonal foreknowledge passages have been, but i do not see how.
Think of this God tells Abraham hundreds of years before it happens what will happen to his descendants. This is rather amazing and we can add Deut. 31 in here also. This would take a lot of intervention on God's part and not only that a whole lot of getting a lot of guesses right. If we have free-will in the sense that not even Foreknowledge can keep us down then how can God speak with such certainty? I know that the OV will say "well he just works things out that way." This is not going to cut it really. I mean think about it, how many precious free agents is he going to have to intervene on! He is going to take peoples freedom away the very thing you are trying to defend! I may be wrong correct me if I am but these and other passages to me seem to cause just as much problems for OV as does the repentance passages for Calvinist.

I am to the point of Glenn Miller now when at the end of his discussion on foreknowledge he says:



Accordingly, I hold to the core understanding that God can declare 'the end from the beginning' but I cannot go too much deeper into God's pre-time or extra-time process of knowing and planning. I consider it fun philosophical theology, but too methodologically uncertain for constructing scenarios about God's motive in this case…

[Needless to say, in the "God cannot foreknow the future" position, the "why did He go ahead with the plan?" problem does not even arise. Instead, a different set of questions are spawned about God and His relation to the world.]

I give up trying to put God in a box!



By His Grace For His Glory
Blake:doh:

[geebob]

first I'll give the answer which I myself do not hold, but I think deserves a mention. Later editors placed this prediction in the story as they looked back upon events that had already folded. I believe Robyn Banks might defend such a view. I have strong sympathies for the reasons that many evangelicals would reject such an answer, but I do not consider it wholly unreasonable, but for the moment, it doesn't seem likely to me.

Now barring that answer, I would first like to mention that not only is my view of free will a little more complex than say the strict libertarian position I do in fact believe that we make choices, free choices even, that are compatible with prior determination. I explain that view in this post and have expanded in prior posts here,
http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=69403#post69403

As to why I still insist that we have libertarian freedom though I am not only unopposed to comptatibilistic freedom, my reasons are listed in the thread specifically on the topic of libertarian freedom.

But I do not find the complexities of free will discussed their to be satisfactory for this question.

My answer is that God looked upon the present state and direction that Egypt was heading with the attitudes the people generally took towards the grace that was available to them and he knew via statistical necessity, what was counterfactually possible with that nation hundreds of years down the road Thus he could make the plans that he did.

Egypt was a rebelious nation and no doubt there were demonic powers that had a strong hold on egypt. So for the time in question, by statistical necessity, God knew that she would be the kind of nation to oppress and enslave a nation. God did not have to know the actions of any unborn individuals. All he needed to know was that there would be plenty of the kind of people that would be congenial to this plan and place them in power, and if they responded positively to his grace, he may protect them but not let them be in the kind of positions that would prevent the enslavement of the israelites. For no particular individual is the libertarian moment lost for important issues such as whether to respond to God's grace positively or to reject it and I see no reason for much micromanagement by God. The prophecy is very broad.

This is all of course for a good purpose, and my guess for the israelites is that they may learn some of the secrets of civilization that the egyptians had, and they would learn to depend upon him for his protection and provisions. The Egyptians would be punished for their wicked ways and would learn a vivid lesson. The whole nation that was in general heading away from him would have an intense libertarian moment when they could easily recognize the true God. The whole nation did not turn to God, as far as we know, but a good number of people who were egyptians left egypt.

[Blake Reas]

Today @ 08:14 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=79247#post79247)
geebob:

first I'll give the answer which I myself do not hold, but I think deserves a mention. Later editors placed this prediction in the story as they looked back upon events that had already folded. I believe Robyn Banks might defend such a view. I have strong sympathies for the reasons that many evangelicals would reject such an answer, but I do not consider it wholly unreasonable, but for the moment, it doesn't seem likely to me.

I do not see why we sould need to rely on Robyn Banks here anyway. The Documentary Hypothesis is a theory that many are starting to question. I am glad you do not hold to it. If that is true Moses did not have anything to do with the Pentateuch.

Now barring that answer, I would first like to mention that not only is my view of free will a little more complex than say the strict libertarian position I do in fact believe that we make choices, free choices even, that are compatible with prior determination. I explain that view in this post and have expanded in prior posts here,
http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=69403#post69403

As to why I still insist that we have libertarian freedom though I am not only unopposed to comptatibilistic freedom, my reasons are listed in the thread specifically on the topic of libertarian freedom.

But I do not find the complexities of free will discussed their to be satisfactory for this question.

My answer is that God looked upon the present state and direction that Egypt was heading with the attitudes the people generally took towards the grace that was available to them and he knew via statistical necessity, what was counterfactually possible with that nation hundreds of years down the road Thus he could make the plans that he did.

Egypt was a rebelious nation and no doubt there were demonic powers that had a strong hold on egypt. So for the time in question, by statistical necessity, God knew that she would be the kind of nation to oppress and enslave a nation. God did not have to know the actions of any unborn individuals. All he needed to know was that there would be plenty of the kind of people that would be congenial to this plan and place them in power, and if they responded positively to his grace, he may protect them but not let them be in the kind of positions that would prevent the enslavement of the israelites. For no particular individual is the libertarian moment lost for important issues such as whether to respond to God's grace positively or to reject it and I see no reason for much micromanagement by God. The prophecy is very broad.

This is all of course for a good purpose, and my guess for the israelites is that they may learn some of the secrets of civilization that the egyptians had, and they would learn to depend upon him for his protection and provisions. The Egyptians would be punished for their wicked ways and would learn a vivid lesson. The whole nation that was in general heading away from him would have an intense libertarian moment when they could easily recognize the true God. The whole nation did not turn to God, as far as we know, but a good number of people who were egyptians left egypt.

Thanks for the answer, I still find it unconvincing. We all have are presuppostions don't we! :teeth:

By His Grace For His Glory
Blake

[geebob]

Thanks for the answer, I still find it unconvincing. We all have are presuppostions don't we!

NO! You must find it convincing! It is the only way for rational persons!

I will make you believe it!

you are getting very sleepy...look deep into my eyes ===> :dufus:

[Jaltus]

You do not need the straight documentary hypothesis (since it does not fit certain areas anyway), but what makes sense is that Moses could have used sources. If so, what is the problem for Moses to have cobbled together the stories into a coherent whole? You see, Moses came after Abraham, and thus knew how the prophecy would work out.

Just being a foil for the moment, carry on.

[yxboom]

Jaltus is trying to be snide in advocating the view he holds.

[Blake Reas]

Today @ 05:02 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=79404#post79404)
Jaltus:

You do not need the straight documentary hypothesis (since it does not fit certain areas anyway), but what makes sense is that Moses could have used sources. If so, what is the problem for Moses to have cobbled together the stories into a coherent whole? You see, Moses came after Abraham, and thus knew how the prophecy would work out.

Just being a foil for the moment, carry on. '

I agree totally, I like reading about the JEDP. It still does not get anyone out of the problem though. If scripture is from God in any typ of way then the teaching cannot lie because God does not lie. So what you have here is Moses under the inspiration of God putting the order of events perfectly as they had happened. If Moses did so after the fact in a way in which the story did not happen as it says, then Scripture is dishonest and how can it be trusted? Just some thoughts to think about. :hrm:

By His Grace For HIs Glory
Blake

[Blake Reas]

Today @ 04:59 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=79403#post79403)
geebob:



NO! You must find it convincing! It is the only way for rational persons!

I will make you believe it!

you are getting very sleepy...look deep into my eyes ===> :dufus:

:duh: I am now at your service almight Geebob! What do you want me to believe:bow:. along with your faithful followers :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

By His Grace For His Glory
Blake