A Question for Open Theists

[seer]

Revelation 17:8

"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to perdition; and the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will marvel to behold the beast, because it was and is not and is to come."

This is very specific, it is not about a group or class, it is about individuals (names). So how did God know who's name would not be written in the book of life before the foundation of the world?

[Blake Reas]

Today @ 04:04 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=79375#post79375)
seer:

Revelation 17:8

"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to perdition; and the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will marvel to behold the beast, because it was and is not and is to come."

This is very specific, it is not about a group or class, it is about individuals (names). So how did God know who's name would not be written in the book of life before the foundation of the world?

Devil's Advocate: You see Seer the text does not "really' say that God knows the future what it really means that God knows all of the intentions of Satan's heart because he really loves him and wants to have a reciprocal realtionship with him so He allows him to have Libertarian freedom to bring havoc up on the ones God loves. I know it may sound weird but it isn't really it shows the Love of God.
Or they may say

Satan has compatabilistic freedom. But then they are stuck with the problem that God controls Satan to bring Havoc up on his "free" creatrures! Sounds like a nasty diliemma either God is evil in this veiw or he is well Evil!'

Blake

[seer]

Devil's Advocate: You see Seer the text does not "really' say that God knows the future what it really means that God knows all of the intentions of Satan's heart because he really loves him and wants to have a reciprocal realtionship with him so He allows him to have Libertarian freedom to bring havoc up on the ones God loves. I know it may sound weird but it isn't really it shows the Love of God.

That explains it!


Or they may say

Satan has compatabilistic freedom. But then they are stuck with the problem that God controls Satan to bring Havoc up on his "free" creatrures! Sounds like a nasty diliemma either God is evil in this veiw or he is well Evil!'

Bless their hearts - at least they are trying...

:rofl:

[geebob]

This is very specific, it is not about a group or class, it is about individuals (names). So how did God know who's name would not be written in the book of life before the foundation of the world?

It doesn't say that God knew the names before the foundation. It says he has been writting them from the foundation.

This can refer to an ongoing process of things that have been happening since creation, such as the slaying of the martyrs. Notice that Luke 11:50-51 says that the slaying of the martyrs has been taking place "from the foundation of the world."

As for the question of Satan, well, I appreciate Blake's attempt, but...er..well, his advocation for satan is not quite how I'd work it.

Satan has some libertarian freedom, but he also displays what I would call "self-determined" freedom. I explain that more at the following link.

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=69403#post69403

[yxboom]

Today @ 08:04 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=79375#post79375)
seer:

Revelation 17:8

"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to perdition; and the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will marvel to behold the beast, because it was and is not and is to come."

This is very specific, it is not about a group or class, it is about individuals (names). So how did God know who's name would not be written in the book of life before the foundation of the world?

I am simply going to echo geebob here in that these names are not (being) written in the book of life that has been going on from the foundation of the world.

This in fact advocates an open future in that names ARE in fact BEING written instead of a stagnant static settled future where the names would have been there from eternity past, but contrary to that names are being written dynamically. Just as much as names are in fact being REMOVED. Notice this isn't a settled deal but an on-going one.

Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

As for Satan's choices, God isn't stupid.

[seer]

Ok gee, that sounds reasonable... Thanks

[yxboom]

Today @ 08:25 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=79384#post79384)
Blake Reas:

Devil's Advocate: You see Seer the text does not "really' say that God knows the future what it really means that God knows all of the intentions of Satan's heart because he really loves him and wants to have a reciprocal realtionship with him so He allows him to have Libertarian freedom to bring havoc up on the ones God loves. I know it may sound weird but it isn't really it shows the Love of God.
Or they may say

Satan has compatabilistic freedom. But then they are stuck with the problem that God controls Satan to bring Havoc up on his "free" creatrures! Sounds like a nasty diliemma either God is evil in this veiw or he is well Evil!'

Blake

Blake you fail to acknowledge that yes God created Satan with the freedom to love Him but has so turned his heart against God so God has been rejected by Satan and the consequence of hating God is always suffering, pain and sin. So the God who desires love is rejected by Satan and thus love is become hate which consequentially Satan reeks havoc on mankind. It still is far more coherent than God predetermining Satan to reek havoc on mankind because God is love. And more than that, rather than Satan choosing to reject God, God failed to make Satan "love" Him whilst He being absolutely sovereign and meticulously dictating events thus determined Satan would hate Him because He needed a scape-goat. Mock on.

[seer]

Blake you fail to acknowledge that yes God created Satan with the freedom to love Him but has so turned his heart against God so God has been rejected by Satan and the consequence of hating God is always suffering, pain and sin.

Interesting yxboom: Where does the Bible say that God created Satan to love Him? Wasn't he a liar and murderer from the beginning?

[yxboom]

Today @ 09:33 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=79430#post79430)
seer:



Interesting yxboom: Where does the Bible say that God created Satan to love Him? Wasn't he a liar and murderer from the beginning?

Yes, just as Adam and Eve were created from the beginning.

Matthew 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

Define the beginning. Was it a general point of reference or an exact moment such that Adam and Eve were the first to be created.


Why I believe Satan was not created evil...

Ezekiel 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.

Satan was blameless in all His ways UNTIL he was found to be unrighteous. This shows there was a point in time Satan rebelled and what it is he rebelled from. That which we all rebel. To reject the God of heaven and earth.

[seer]

...Matthew 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

...Define the beginning. Was it a general point of reference or an exact moment such that Adam and Eve were the first to be created.

But it was THEIR beginning. So from their beginning they were created male and female. Just as Satan was from his beginning a liar and murderer.

Ezekiel 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.

Why on earth do you think this refers to Satan. Especially since Ezekiel tells us that this is a lamentaion against the King of Tyrus vs.12?

[Blake Reas]

Today @ 05:28 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=79427#post79427)
yxboom:



Blake you fail to acknowledge that yes God created Satan with the freedom to love Him but has so turned his heart against God so God has been rejected by Satan and the consequence of hating God is always suffering, pain and sin. So the God who desires love is rejected by Satan and thus love is become hate which consequentially Satan reeks havoc on mankind. It still is far more coherent than God predetermining Satan to reek havoc on mankind because God is love. And more than that, rather than Satan choosing to reject God, God failed to make Satan "love" Him whilst He being absolutely sovereign and meticulously dictating events thus determined Satan would hate Him because He needed a scape-goat. Mock on.


I know I was being a butt head. :poke:! A little humor never hurt anyone. I still think you are stuck with the problem though. I God loves us why does he let Satan live?

[doogieduff]

Today @ 10:56 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=79452#post79452)
seer:



But it was THEIR beginning. So from their beginning they were created male and female. Just as Satan was from his beginning a liar and murderer.



Why on earth do you think this refers to Satan. Especially since Ezekiel tells us that this is a lamentaion against the King of Tyrus vs.12?

Read Ezekiel 28 and you'll clearly see who it is talking about. Read vs. 11-13. Was the King of Tyre in "Eden, the Garden of God, until inquity was found in you"? Of course not. Was the King of Tyre "the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty"? Nope. But guess who was? God's top angel...who fell. So no, he was not a liar and murderer from the beginning.

[seer]

Read Ezekiel 28 and you'll clearly see who it is talking about. Read vs. 11-13. Was the King of Tyre in "Eden, the Garden of God, until inquity was found in you"? Of course not. Was the King of Tyre "the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty"? Nope. But guess who was? God's top angel...who fell. So no, he was not a liar and murderer from the beginning.

No,no doggie you are missing the whole point. First you have no evidence that is being (even if it is not King of Tyre) is Satan. That is an assumption. Second this is Hebrew hyperbole - a figurative way of showing the height of the King's fall.

I'll prove this from another such reference:

Ez.31

2-4

"Son of man, say to Pharaoh king of Egypt and to his multitude: Whom are you like in your greatness? Behold, I will liken you to a cedar in Lebanon, with fair branches and forest shade, and of great height, its top among the clouds. The waters nourished it, the deep made it grow tall, making its rivers flow round the place of its planting, sending forth its streams to all the trees of the forest."

This is speaking of Pharaoh.

Now go on:

8-9

"The cedars in the garden of God could not rival it, nor the fir trees equal its boughs; the plane trees were as nothing compared with its branches; no tree in the garden of God was like it in beauty. I made it beautiful in the mass of its branches, and all the trees of Eden envied it, that were in the garden of God."

Was Pharaoh literally a tree in Eden. And the most beautiful tree in Eden?

Of course not, these images are used to show the greatness of a being, and later how far they fell.

10-11

"Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Because it towered high and set its top among the clouds, and its heart was proud of its height, I will give it into the hand of a mighty one of the nations; he shall surely deal with it as its wickedness deserves. I have cast it out."

Did Pharaoh the "tree" literally tower among the clouds?

Speaking of Edom

Obadiah 1:3,4

"The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee, thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; that saith in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground?Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD. "

Did Edom really set it's nest among the stars:


We also find this language in the NT.

Matthew 11:23

"And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day."

Was Capernaum literally exaulted into Heaven?

See doggie, this is figurative language showing from how high these great nations and men fell.

And you still have to answer the question. If God didn't want Satan around how come He didn't get rid of him centuries ago?

[Blake Reas]

Today @ 07:24 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=79504#post79504)
seer:



No,no doggie you are missing the whole point. First you have no evidence that is being (even if it is not King of Tyre) is Satan. That is an assumption. Second this is Hebrew hyperbole - a figurative way of showing the height of the King's fall.

I'll prove this from another such reference:

Ez.31

2-4

"Son of man, say to Pharaoh king of Egypt and to his multitude: Whom are you like in your greatness? Behold, I will liken you to a cedar in Lebanon, with fair branches and forest shade, and of great height, its top among the clouds. The waters nourished it, the deep made it grow tall, making its rivers flow round the place of its planting, sending forth its streams to all the trees of the forest."

This is speaking of Pharaoh.

Now go on:

8-9

"The cedars in the garden of God could not rival it, nor the fir trees equal its boughs; the plane trees were as nothing compared with its branches; no tree in the garden of God was like it in beauty. I made it beautiful in the mass of its branches, and all the trees of Eden envied it, that were in the garden of God."

Was Pharaoh literally a tree in Eden. And the most beautiful tree in Eden?

Of course not, these images are used to show the greatness of a being, and later how far they fell.

10-11

"Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Because it towered high and set its top among the clouds, and its heart was proud of its height, I will give it into the hand of a mighty one of the nations; he shall surely deal with it as its wickedness deserves. I have cast it out."

Did Pharaoh the "tree" literally tower among the clouds?

Speaking of Edom

Obadiah 1:3,4

"The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee, thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; that saith in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground?Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD. "

Did Edom really set it's nest among the stars:


We also find this language in the NT.

Matthew 11:23

"And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day."

Was Capernaum literally exaulted into Heaven?

See doggie, this is figurative language showing from how high these great nations and men fell.

And you still have to answer the question. If God didn't want Satan around how come He didn't get rid of him centuries ago?

Actually, I think Doogie here has a valid objection. In the ancient near east the writers of the Biblical Stories would fuse Historical events with Cosmic happenings. For instance in Psalms when it speaks of God freeing the people from Egypt. The writer sees it as destroying a Cosmic force. So it could be Satan but we cannot be dogmatic. The illusions to the garden of Eden etc. are convincing but there is no way to know with certainty. Wow I am agreeing with an OVer! that is scary.

By His Grace For His Glory
Blake

[seer]

Well Blake,you do have a point, but the fact is there is no conclusive evidence in Scripture that Satan is a fallen being. I suspect that the Devil is doing exactly what God created Him to do. And as you know that is the Ancient Jewish belief.

[yxboom]

Today @ 11:24 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=79504#post79504)
seer:

And you still have to answer the question. If God didn't want Satan around how come He didn't get rid of him centuries ago?
I will simply disagree without detracting more from the original question.

If God doesn't want Satan around...basically the assumption is there is only two options in this situation. Theodicy is either God predetermined to create Satan evil to serve as arch-nemesis in the game called history or every other option is wrong.

Why pray God's will be done? Why did Jesus rebuke Satan? Why did Jesus cast out demons, afterall He wanted them here and more than that created them for the very reason that they are here. The question in reverse is far more begging since there are no other options.

[seer]

Why pray God's will be done? Why did Jesus rebuke Satan? Why did Jesus cast out demons, afterall He wanted them here and more than that created them for the very reason that they are here. The question in reverse is far more begging since there are no other options.

That still does not answer the question. But then again who would have tested Christ in the wilderness if not Satan? I would have to say though that God will destroy the works of the Devil when they are not needed any more. And Christ gave us a foretaste of that.

But let's be honest yxboom, if God didn't want,to some degree, the Devil around, he would have been gone centuries ago...

[yxboom]

My point was not to answer the question.

[Blake Reas]

Yesterday @ 10:04 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=79578#post79578)
seer:

Well Blake,you do have a point, but the fact is there is no conclusive evidence in Scripture that Satan is a fallen being. I suspect that the Devil is doing exactly what God created Him to do. And as you know that is the Ancient Jewish belief.

Actually Seer, I am taking data from the ancient near east. The OT whether you like it or not depicts Yaweh as sovereign over even other supernatural beings. It is there, the context dictates it to an extent. Notice the language of Eden etc. it is clearly talking about the Historical event and the supernatural event that lies behind it.
And yes YHWH is depicted as Great King all throughout the Old Testament so that would imply His control over everything. We notice in the book of Job that Satan must ask permission of God what to do. So yes God does in ordain things but works them out in History. He does not just wind things up He causes his plan to work out in the context of History.

Blake

[Blake Reas]

Today @ 06:56 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=80115#post80115)
Blake Reas:



Actually Seer, I am taking data from the ancient near east. The OT whether you like it or not depicts Yaweh as sovereign over even other supernatural beings. It is there, the context dictates it to an extent. Notice the language of Eden etc. it is clearly talking about the Historical event and the supernatural event that lies behind it.
And yes YHWH is depicted as Great King all throughout the Old Testament so that would imply His control over everything. We notice in the book of Job that Satan must ask permission of God what to do. So yes God does in ordain things but works them out in History. He does not just wind things up He causes his plan to work out in the context of History.

Blake



Here is another soveriegnty passage:

See now that, I, even I, am He,
and there is no god
beside me;
I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal
and there is none that can
deliever out of my hand
Song of Moses (Deuteronomy 32: 39)

God Bless,
Blake

[Jaltus]

Possbile control over everything does not mean specific sovereignty. False assumption there, Blake.

God has the power to destroy the entire universe, does that mean He uses it? Obviously not. Having the ability to do something does not mean excercising that ability.

[doogieduff]

seer,

What about Isaiah 14? That seems to show satan as a fallen angel.

[geebob]

I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal
and there is none that can
deliever out of my hand

that God does these things does not indicate that everytime these things are done, God does it. You could interpret the prior statement that there is no God beside him to the effect that no-one else does these things, but that is hardly necessary.

[Woman]

Simple minded question:

1. The history of God, heaven, Satan, angels, etc. happened before Genesis, right?

2. Where is this history written?

3. Are there extra-Biblical sources?

4. What is an open-theist?

Thanks,
Woman

[Jaltus]

Today @ 06:56 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=80399#post80399)
Woman:

Simple minded question:

1. The history of God, heaven, Satan, angels, etc. happened before Genesis, right?

Some say yes, some say no. The view fo the latter is that Genesis 3 is the fall of Satan and man, with Genesis 6 being the fall of demons.

2. Where is this history written?

It is embedded in other portions of scripture. Revelation actually details some of this in, I think, chapter 12 dealing with the dragon and its fall from heaven.

3. Are there extra-Biblical sources?

Be more specific. Do you mean from the Ancient Near East times, or do you mean a Systematic Theology text?

4. What is an open-theist?

Open Theists are Christians who believe that God has only partial foreknowledge since it is impossible for anyone to know a future action taken by a free agent. Thus, nothing you or I will do can be known since that would mean we did not freely make that decision. It also holds to Libertarian Free Will. Generally, Open Theists are an extreme form of Evangelicalism.

[geebob]

Open Theists are Christians who believe that God has only partial foreknowledge since it is impossible for anyone to know a future action taken by a free agent.

Ahem. An open theist CAN believe that God has partial foreknowledge, but some like Greg Boyd hold that the foreknowledge is complete because to know an indeterminate future exhaustively is to know that it is filled with multiple possibilities for the same events and consequntly, to not know which of those possibilities will come to pass because there is no fact of the matter about which ones will come to pass until something happens to exclude the other possibilities from happening. So we all reject edf (exhaustive definite foreknowledge)-but some still hold hold to ef.

[doogieduff]

seer,

On your original verse, it doesn't say that names were written in it from the foundation of the world, it says the book of life is from the foundation of the world, and names were being written in it from that point on...