Christmas

[barryrob]

Is Christmas Christian?

Barryrob

[Solly]

It's as Christian as you want to make it.

[barryrob]

It's as Christian as you want to make it.
Intresting, but if it is humans that make it Christian does God agree them?
Barryrob

[Solly]

1Co 10:30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks?
1Co 10:31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

Col 3:17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Since when is remembering the Lord and what he has done for us not going to make God agreeable? Unless it involves wilful sin, or distortion of his truth, then what is the problem.

Btw, we don't usually start this sort of thread until late november, early december. :teeth:

Are you going to roll out the 'heathen practices' stuff now?

[barryrob]

1Co 10:30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks?
1Co 10:31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

Col 3:17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Since when is remembering the Lord and what he has done for us not going to make God agreeable? Unless it involves wilful sin, or distortion of his truth, then what is the problem.

Btw, we don't usually start this sort of thread until late november, early december. :teeth:

Are you going to roll out the 'heathen practices' stuff now?


As you know it is pagan I will ask, is it agreeable to God, so then this celebration therefore should be recorded in the Book of Acts of the Apostles & others, as men who did things to God's glory, but it is not there, why?
Barryrob

[Xavier]

As you know it is pagan I will ask, is it agreeable to God, so then this celebration therefore should be recorded in the Book of Acts of the Apostles & others, as men who did things to God's glory, but it is not there, why?
Barryrob

Argument from Silence.

[Solly]

As you know it is pagan I will ask, is it agreeable to God, so then this celebration therefore should be recorded in the Book of Acts of the Apostles & others, as men who did things to God's glory, but it is not there, why?
Barryrob

No, I don't know it's pagan - we didn't slaughter a calf last Christmas at church, we didn't invoke the sun God to return, nor did we practice any fertility rites. The nearest we came to Teraphim we a manger display. however, a good time was had by family gathered together, as well as the brethren singing God's praises, for he was contracted to a span, for our sakes. Loving demonstrations were passed around, and all were glad our saviour came into the world.

Oh, oh, wait,didn't some other people use Dec 25th??? Oh, but they aren't here now, are they, they have gone, and Christianity reigns. sigh.

[barryrob]

No, I don't know it's pagan - we didn't slaughter a calf last Christmas at church, we didn't invoke the sun God to return, nor did we practice any fertility rites. The nearest we came to Teraphim we a manger display. however, a good time was had by family gathered together, as well as the brethren singing God's praises, for he was contracted to a span, for our sakes. Loving demonstrations were passed around, and all were glad our saviour came into the world.





OK, but it would be good to adderss the question.



Oh, oh, wait,didn't some other people use Dec 25th??? Oh, but they aren't here now, are they, they have gone, and Christianity reigns. sigh.Oh, Yes they are!


Barryrob

[Solly]

Looks like we will have to wait until Christmas to get a substantive response form you :poke:

slly

[Gabby]

I've been round and round with this, with myself and with others. I still struggle with it. However, to be consisitant about using or doing pagan things we need to include all those things. So here's a short list. Diamonds were thought to be magical and valued for such. (There goes my wedding ring) Oh and the ring has pagan symbolism also. The white dress and probably most of the wedding cer. Pearls were associated with the moon and such pagan rituals. (There goes my grandmothers necklace.) The Obalisk in my garden where I grow my beans and morning glories, pagan. Almost all of the presious stones were thought to have some magical power. (some still believe this.) Cats were worshiped, so there goes my little porcelein Cat with kitten. Cows are still worshiped in India, but I know people who love to collect cows to decorate with. Feng shwe (can't spell that) believes that mirrors can change a person's fate. Garlic, different herbs, and even the cross is used for pagan rituals. Got to get rid of those vampires.

Anyhow, these are just the things that I've thought of. I'm sure there is many many more.

just my 2 cents,
chris

I wish there was a spell checker here.

[barryrob]

Oh, oh, wait,didn't some other people use Dec 25th??? Oh, but they aren't here now, are they, they have gone, and Christianity reigns. sigh.[/QUOTE]

No they have not gone:-
A) Wicca Lessons Lesson 7

The Wheel of the Year

THE WINTER SOLSTICE: YULE - 21st DECEMBER

Yule is the time we celebrate the return of the waxing sun. Light and life can be seen to be returning and conquering death. Yule is a turning point, a point of change, where the tides of the year turn and begin to flow in the opposite direction. It is the darkest time of the year, the time of the longest night, but there is the promise of the return of light.

We encourage the sun to rise and to grow in power, and we remember the seasons of plenty. Magickally we bring back the season of plenty, and we feast on rich foods and drinks. The fir tree represents life amidst death, it is evergreen, representing everlasting life, and lasting friendship.

Holly and Mistletoe bear berries at this time, symbolizing fertility. Mistletoe berries are white, representing the semen of the Horned God, the Holly berries are blood red, symbolizing both the menstrual blood of the Goddess and the sacrifice of the God. Evergreen trees also represent youth and freshness, and are symbols of the promise of spring. A yule custom, still practised at Christmas is to dress an evergreen tree, and make offerings.

We honour the spirit of the tree, and what it represents. It is sad that a custom of honouring the living tree has been replaced by the meaningless decoration of ghastly plastic or tinsel trees, or the cutting down of thousands of living trees so that people can have them in their living rooms for a couple of weeks, and then dump them, causing environmental damage. It is far better to honour a living tree, outdoors.

The tree may be decorated with appropriate offerings, fruit, decorated pine cones, jewellery, symbols of the sun, symbols of fertility, birds, animals, etc. At yule we say goodbye to the dying sun, and wait through the long, cold night for the sun's rebirth. The night belongs to the Goddess, and is a night of waiting, through her pregnancy, for the Child of Promise.

In the morning we greet the new sun and celebrate the waxing year. The rising sun brings the promise of the spring and the gifts that will bring. It is still a long time before the sun will be strong, but we hope and we trust. The sun is now the Child of Promise, the young hero God. It is a time of making wishes and hopes for the coming year, and of setting resolutions. From the darkness comes light.”-http://www.avalonia.co.uk/wicca/lessons/lesson7.htm


B)
The Wheel of the Year

Yule ~ Midwinter Night's Eve

© by Mike Nichols



Our Christian friends are often quite surprised at how enthusiastically we Pagans celebrate the 'Christmas' season. Even though we prefer to use the word 'Yule', and our celebrations may peak a few days BEFORE the 25th, we nonetheless follow many of the traditional customs of the season: decorated trees, carolling, presents, Yule logs, and mistletoe. We might even go so far as putting up a 'Nativity set', though for us the three central characters are likely to be interpreted as Mother Nature, Father Time, and the Baby Sun-God.



Ultimately, of course, the holiday is rooted deeply in the cycle of the year. It is the Winter Solstice that is being celebrated, seed-time of the year, the longest night and shortest day. It is the birthday of the new Sun King, the Son of God -- by whatever name you choose to call him. On this darkest of nights, the Goddess becomes the Great Mother and once again gives birth. And it makes perfect poetic sense that on the longest night of the winter, 'the dark night of our souls', there springs the new spark of hope, the Sacred Fire, the Light of the World, the Coel Coeth.



That is why Pagans have as much right to claim this holiday as Christians. Perhaps even more so, as the Christians were rather late in laying claim to it, and tried more than once to reject it. There had been a tradition in the West that Mary bore the child Jesus on the twenty-fifth day, but no one could seem to decide on the month. Finally, in 320 C.E., the Catholic Fathers in Rome decided to make it December, in an effort to co-opt the Mithraic celebration of the Romans and the Yule celebrations of the Celts and Saxons.



Thus, despite its shaky start (for over three centuries, no one knew when Jesus was supposed to have been born!), December 25 finally began to catch on. By 529, it was a civic holiday, and all work or public business (except that of cooks, bakers, or any that contributed to the delight of the holiday) was prohibited by the Emperor Justinian. In 563, the Council of Braga forbade fasting on Christmas Day, and four years later the Council of Tours proclaimed the twelve days from December 25 to Epiphany as a sacred, festive season. This last point is perhaps the hardest to impress upon the modern reader, who is lucky to get a single day off work. Christmas, in the Middle Ages, was not a SINGLE day, but rather a period of TWELVE days, from December 25 to January 6. The Twelve Days of Christmas, in fact. It is certainly lamentable that the modern world has abandoned this approach, along with the popular Twelfth Night celebrations.



Of course, the Christian version of the holiday spread to many countries no faster than Christianity itself, which means that 'Christmas' wasn't celebrated in Ireland until the late fifth century; in England, Switzerland, and Austria until the seventh; in Germany until the eighth; and in the Slavic lands until the ninth and tenth. Not that these countries lacked their own mid-winter celebrations of Yuletide. Long before the world had heard of Jesus, Pagans had been observing the season by bringing in the Yule log, wishing on it, and lighting it from the remains of last year's log. Riddles were posed and answered, magic and rituals were practiced, wild boars were sacrificed and consumed along with large quantities of liquor, corn dollies were carried from house to house while carolling, fertility rites were practiced (girls standing under a sprig of mistletoe were subject to a bit more than a kiss), and divinations were cast for the coming Spring. Many of these Pagan customs, in an appropriately watered-down form, have entered the mainstream of Christian celebration, though most celebrants do not realize (or do not mention it, if they do) their origins.



For modern Witches, Yule (from the Anglo-Saxon 'Yula', meaning 'wheel' of the year) is usually celebrated on the actual Winter Solstice, which may vary by a few days, though it usually occurs on or around December 21st. It is a Lesser Sabbat or Lower Holiday in the modern Pagan calendar, one of the four quarter-days of the year, but a very important one. Pagan customs are still enthusiastically followed. Once, the Yule log had been the center of the celebration. It was lighted on the eve of the solstice (it should light on the first try) and must be kept burning for twelve hours, for good luck. It should be made of ash. Later, the Yule log was replaced by the Yule tree but, instead of burning it, burning candles were placed on it. In Christianity, Protestants might claim that Martin Luther invented the custom, and Catholics might grant St. Boniface the honor, but the custom can demonstrably be traced back through the Roman Saturnalia all the way to ancient Egypt. Needless to say, such a tree should be cut down rather than purchased, and should be disposed of by burning, the proper way to dispatch any sacred object.



Along with the evergreen, the holly and the ivy and the mistletoe were important plants of the season, all symbolizing fertility and everlasting life. Mistletoe was especially venerated by the Celtic Druids, who cut it with a golden sickle on the sixth night of the moon, and believed it to be an aphrodisiac. (Magically -- not medicinally! It's highly toxic!) But aphrodisiacs must have been the smallest part of the Yuletide menu in ancient times, as contemporary reports indicate that the tables fairly creaked under the strain of every type of good food. And drink! The most popular of which was the 'wassail cup' deriving its name from the Anglo-Saxon term 'waes hael' (be whole or hale).



Medieval Christmas folklore seems endless: that animals will all kneel down as the Holy Night arrives, that bees hum the '100th psalm' on Christmas Eve, that a windy Christmas will bring good luck, that a person born on Christmas Day can see the Little People, that a cricket on the hearth brings good luck, that if one opens all the doors of the house at midnight all the evil spirits will depart, that you will have one lucky month for each Christmas pudding you sample, that the tree must be taken down by Twelfth Night or bad luck is sure to follow, that 'if Christmas on a Sunday be, a windy winter we shall see', that 'hours of sun on Christmas Day, so many frosts in the month of May', that one can use the Twelve Days of Christmas to predict the weather for each of the twelve months of the coming year, and so on.



Remembering that most Christmas customs are ultimately based upon older Pagan customs, it only remains for modern Pagans to reclaim their lost traditions. In doing so, we can share many common customs with our Christian friends, albeit with a slightly different interpretation. And thus we all share in the beauty of this most magical of seasons, when the Mother Goddess once again gives birth to the baby Sun-God and sets the wheel in motion again. To conclude with a long-overdue paraphrase, 'Goddess bless us, every one!'

http://www.americanwicca.com/university/wheel-0009.html

[barryrob]

I've been round and round with this, with myself and with others. I still struggle with it. However, to be consisitant about using or doing pagan things we need to include all those things. So here's a short list. Diamonds were thought to be magical and valued for such. (There goes my wedding ring) Oh and the ring has pagan symbolism also. The white dress and probably most of the wedding cer. Pearls were associated with the moon and such pagan rituals. (There goes my grandmothers necklace.) The Obalisk in my garden where I grow my beans and morning glories, pagan. Almost all of the presious stones were thought to have some magical power. (some still believe this.) Cats were worshiped, so there goes my little porcelein Cat with kitten. Cows are still worshiped in India, but I know people who love to collect cows to decorate with. Feng shwe (can't spell that) believes that mirrors can change a person's fate. Garlic, different herbs, and even the cross is used for pagan rituals. Got to get rid of those vampires.

Anyhow, these are just the things that I've thought of. I'm sure there is many many more.

just my 2 cents,
chris

I wish there was a spell checker here. (Snap)




There is a big differance between an object of great beauty that reflect the handy work of God and a object that is used in or viewed in ones socitey as an object use in worship or religious feastivites. Some of the things you mention above where used by the Jews and God did not object to it.

The point is is it now related to or used in false worship such as the religious feasts stepped in pagan rituals and symbols and still used in a religuous way to venerate God(s).
Barryrob

[Gabby]

(Snap)




There is a big differance between an object of great beauty that reflect the handy work of God and a object that is used in or viewed in ones socitey as an object use in worship or religious feastivites. Some of the things you mention above where used by the Jews and God did not object to it.

The point is is it now related to or used in false worship such as the religious feasts stepped in pagan rituals and symbols and still used in a religuous way to venerate God(s).
Barryrob


These objects were not and still are not just peices of great beauty. New Agers basically worships these things, diamonds crystals, opals, pearls and other minerals. Wears them for luck and prosperity, love and happiness. THIS IS FALSE WORSHIP.

Almost the whole wedding ceremony is pagan rituals. The garter, something old, something new, something blue, tossing the boquet, throwing the garter, throwing the rice, not seeing the bride in her dress before the ceromony. I'm sure I'm missing many many more. How about the diamonds which are so popular. Read on the history of wearing diamonds. The ring itself, the circle of eternity, is pagan. People, non christians inparticular, still hold to the superstions. How many times have you heard the phrase "knock on wood"? Peoples today still believe it is bad luck to see the bride in her gown before the wedding. People hold fast, even to leagalism, to the idea of the white dress for the pure and the off white for those who are not. You won't find that anywhere in the bible. Did you know that black was the color for the brides in the Victorian era. Not so long ago. Red is the color for the brides in China. Red brings good luck you know.

Again, Rom. 14:5,6ff "One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, ...................."


chris

[barryrob]

These objects were not and still are not just peices of great beauty. New Agers basically worships these things, diamonds crystals, opals, pearls and other minerals. Wears them for luck and prosperity, love and happiness. THIS IS FALSE WORSHIP.

Almost the whole wedding ceremony is pagan rituals. The garter, something old, something new, something blue, tossing the boquet, throwing the garter, throwing the rice, not seeing the bride in her dress before the ceromony. I'm sure I'm missing many many more. How about the diamonds which are so popular. Read on the history of wearing diamonds. The ring itself, the circle of eternity, is pagan. People, non christians inparticular, still hold to the superstions. How many times have you heard the phrase "knock on wood"? Peoples today still believe it is bad luck to see the bride in her gown before the wedding. People hold fast, even to leagalism, to the idea of the white dress for the pure and the off white for those who are not. You won't find that anywhere in the bible. Did you know that black was the color for the brides in the Victorian era. Not so long ago. Red is the color for the brides in China. Red brings good luck you know.

Again, Rom. 14:5,6ff "One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, ...................."


chris

Then reject the pagan elements.
Why did Jehovah then commend the 12 Gems but put on the High Priest Brest plate?
Jews use Rings and God allowed it.
I think you will find God is reasonable in his requirments.

You could say the same about the Days of the Week or the pagan symbols on coins etc., but then there are things beyond our power to alter at this time, these Jehovah will have to deal with himself in due time until then we avoid that which is within our power to do so according to our conscience, God will not ask us to change things beyond our power to do so.


Barryrob

[Gabby]

That is my point. It is impossible to rid ourselves of all that is pagan. I have a beautiful wedding ring with diamonds that I wear proudly, as a reminder of my oath and a sign to others that I have taken an oath. I also enjoy it's beauty. I have a string of pearls that I keep, not because I worship the moon, but because I like them. The obilisk in my garden I keep to support my plants, not because I'm making any kind of dediction to some false god. I put lights on my trees outside in the winter because winter is deary and I enjoy the beauty of it, not because I'm looking forward to some winter solstice. I put lights inside my home, in my windows and around my bannister for the same reasons. I decorate with pretty colors and put a tree up with lights and decorations because we choose to make a holiday at the end of December, not to worship the sun or the tree. We talk about Jesus' birth all year, but we focus on Jesus' birth, life and death especially. It's a good teaching moment for our children. You know why? Because I can focus on things differently in my home. I can take the greed and consumerism of that time of the year and focus it for my children on something good and beautiful, when the world focuses on things and fantasy.

The world isn't gonna stop celebrating the Christmas holiday. My children's school isn't gonna stop doing the crafts, and songs of that season. Advertisers aren't gonna stop peddling their wares to my kids. The kids at school aren't gonna stop talking about what they want, what they get. But I can focus it for my children.

It's the same for Easter. Now there's a pagan name for ya!

Anyhow, as for your question, 'is Christmas Christan?' Christmas is what you make it. In and of itself it is NOTHING, just like the wedding ring I wear. People make it what they want. To look at it otherwise, you must do it across the board. Is Easter christian? Is Thanksgiving christian? Is Valentines Christian? ect.

chris

[barryrob]

That is my point. It is impossible to rid ourselves of all that is pagan. I have a beautiful wedding ring with diamonds that I wear proudly, as a reminder of my oath and a sign to others that I have taken an oath. I also enjoy it's beauty. I have a string of pearls that I keep, not because I worship the moon, but because I like them. The obilisk in my garden I keep to support my plants, not because I'm making any kind of dediction to some false god. I put lights on my trees outside in the winter because winter is deary and I enjoy the beauty of it, not because I'm looking forward to some winter solstice. I put lights inside my home, in my windows and around my bannister for the same reasons. I decorate with pretty colors and put a tree up with lights and decorations because we choose to make a holiday at the end of December, not to worship the sun or the tree. We talk about Jesus' birth all year, but we focus on Jesus' birth, life and death especially. It's a good teaching moment for our children. You know why? Because I can focus on things differently in my home. I can take the greed and consumerism of that time of the year and focus it for my children on something good and beautiful, when the world focuses on things and fantasy.

The world isn't gonna stop celebrating the Christmas holiday. My children's school isn't gonna stop doing the crafts, and songs of that season. Advertisers aren't gonna stop peddling their wares to my kids. The kids at school aren't gonna stop talking about what they want, what they get. But I can focus it for my children.

It's the same for Easter. Now there's a pagan name for ya!

Anyhow, as for your question, 'is Christmas Christan?' Christmas is what you make it. In and of itself it is NOTHING, just like the wedding ring I wear. People make it what they want. To look at it otherwise, you must do it across the board. Is Easter christian? Is Thanksgiving christian? Is Valentines Christian? ect.

chris



That is what I do as a Christian Witness of Jehovah, which as Jesus said sets us free.

Barryrob

[barryrob]

Argument from Silence.
The Jews claimed that the worship of The Star God Saturn was that of their God:-

Exodus 32:4-6
Then he took [the gold] from their hands, and he formed it with a graving tool and proceeded to make it into a molten statue of a calf. And they began to say: “This is your God, O Israel, who led you up out of the land of Egypt.” When Aaron got to see this, he went to building an altar before it. Finally Aaron called out and said: “There is a festival to Jehovah tomorrow.” So on the next day they were early in rising, and they began offering up burnt offerings and presenting communion sacrifices. After that the people sat down to eat and drink. Then they got up to have a good time.



What did Steven say:-

Acts 7:42-43 So God turned and handed them over to render sacred service to the army of heaven, just as it is written in the book of the prophets, ‘It was not to me that YOU offered victims and sacrifices for forty years in the wilderness, was it, O house of Israel? But it was the tent of Mo´loch and the star of the god Rephan that YOU took up, the figures which YOU made to worship them. Consequently I will deport YOU beyond Babylon.’



So what has the Church done:-

'As The Romans Did' [A Sourcebook In Roman Social History] by Jo-Ann Shelton p.384

"[footnote] 172 Saturnalia was one of the most popular of the whole year. Its place was conveniently taken in the Christian calendar by Christmas, but many of the festivities which surrounded the celebration of Saturn were absorbed into the celebration of Christ's birth. The Christians wisely absorbed what they could not eradicate."

WORSHIP OF THE GOD SATURN

"Saturn (mythology), in Roman mythology, ancient god of agriculture. In later legends he was identified with the Greek god Cronus, who, after having been dethroned by his son Zeus (in Roman mythology, Jupiter), fled to Italy, where he ruled during the Golden Age, a time of perfect peace and happiness. Beginning on December 17 of each year, during the festival known as the Saturnalia, the Golden Age was restored for seven days. All business stopped and executions and military operations were postponed. It was a period of goodwill, devoted to banquets and the exchange of visits and gifts. A special feature of the festival was the freedom given to slaves, who during this time had first place at the family table and were served by their masters…..."-Microsoft® Encarta® 96 Encyclopedia


Swift Platinum Easton's Topical Bible

"Remphan (Acts 7:43; R.V., "Rephan"). In Amos 5:26 the Heb. Chiun (q.v.) is rendered by the LXX. "Rephan," and this name is adopted by Luke in his narrative of the Acts. These names represent the star-god Saturn or Moloch."



Corinthians 10:18-22:-
"LOOK at that which is Israel in a fleshly way: Are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers with the altar? What, then, am I to say? That what is sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No; but I say that the things which the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons, and not to God; and I do not want YOU to become sharers with the demons. YOU cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; YOU cannot be partaking of “the table of Jehovah” and the table of demons. Or “are we inciting Jehovah to jealousy”? We are not stronger than he is, are we?." The New International Version of the Bible reads at 1 Cor 10:20 of the Israelite worship of Saturn "No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons."



Argument from the Bible and History!


Barryrob

[Xavier]

Saturnalia is not Christmas. It might share a date, but not much else.

[Trout]

Barryrob,

I'd like a pony for Christmas, can you help me out?

[barryrob]

Saturnalia is not Christmas. It might share a date, but not much else.

'A Rose by any other name smells the same.'
Barryrob

[barryrob]

Barryrob,

I'd like a pony for Christmas, can you help me out?
Hi Trout
Hope you and yours are well.

Sorry export restrictions from England.

[Trout]

Hi Trout
Hope you and yours are well.

Sorry export restrictions from England.

Darn it. . .

How bout a Christmas card instead? :nsm:

[Xavier]

'A Rose by any other name smells the same.'
Barryrob
Only if its actually a rose...

[Jedidiah]

Then reject the pagan elements. Then, using the same logic, it would be acceptable to God to celebrate the birth of His annointed saviour as long as we reject the pagan elements (all those elements you have pointed out).

beeman

[barryrob]

Then, using the same logic, it would be acceptable to God to celebrate the birth of His annointed saviour as long as we reject the pagan elements (all those elements you have pointed out).

beemanAs you know JWs do not celerbrate any birthdays.

Tell me how can anyone celerbrate the day on which Jesus was born when there is no record anywhere on this planet telling us on what day it happened?

So any date would be wrong!

Barryrob

[Jedidiah]

As you know JWs do not celerbrate any birthdays.

Tell me how can anyone celerbrate the day on which Jesus was born when there is no record anywhere on this planet telling us on what day it happened?

So any date would be wrong!

BarryrobHow is any of this relevant to what I asked?

[barryrob]

How is any of this relevant to what I asked?
God is a God of Truth, so in Truth, which is essential to be excepted by God, what was the true day of Jesus was born on? Because if it is not true then it is a lie!

Barryrob

[Gabby]

What was the true bread that Jesus used at the Passover Feast, what was the true fruit of the vine that he used. Not Matzos and grape juice. What type of grapes, what type of flower and oil and baking methods were used. What not true is not truth! What type of Synagog did Jeus worship in? Stain glassed windows with cushioned pews. Nice pulpit with state of the art mic.? Ones with bathrooms? Kitchens? Classrooms? Wouldn't want to do something that where there isn't an example laid out for us. Prayer shawls and tzit tzits.

How about anniversaries, Valentines Day, Thanksgiving.
Better re-examine everything.

chris

[Jedidiah]

God is a God of Truth, so in Truth, which is essential to be excepted by God, what was the true day of Jesus was born on? Because if it is not true then it is a lie!Since I do not know of anyone who claims that the 25th of December is the day Jesus was born, I do not know anyone guilty of the lie you are pointing at. The Christians I know remember the birth of the the savior on that day because it is the day we remember it as a group, not because anyone pretends that it is THE day. Why not celebrate the coming of the Messiah into this world?

How about an answer to the question I asked originally. Then, using the same logic, woulld it be acceptable to God to celebrate the birth of His annointed saviour as long as we reject the pagan elements?

beeman

[barryrob]

Since I do not know of anyone who claims that the 25th of December is the day Jesus was born, I do not know anyone guilty of the lie you are pointing at. The Christians I know remember the birth of the the savior on that day because it is the day we remember it as a group, not because anyone pretends that it is THE day. Why not celebrate the coming of the Messiah into this world?

How about an answer to the question I asked originally. Then, using the same logic, woulld it be acceptable to God to celebrate the birth of His annointed saviour as long as we reject the pagan elements?

beemanBecause Jesus said:-



Luke 22:19-20




Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: "This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me." 20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.






The above way is the only Jesus Christ said to remember Him, not his birthday which no body know when it is. If Jesus wanted us to celerbrate his birth he would of made sure we know when it was, this He did not do! He wants Christian to celerbtate his Death as this brings salvation to men and glory to God.





What did Paul say:-





1 Corinthians 4:6




"Do not go beyond the things that are written,"





Christmas goes against Paul's words above!





Barryrob

[Jedidiah]

Because Jesus said:-Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: "This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me." Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.

The above way is the only Jesus Christ said to remember Him, not his birthday which no body know when it is. If Jesus wanted us to celerbrate his birth he would of made sure we know when it was, this He did not do! He wants Christian to celerbtate his Death as this brings salvation to men and glory to God.So your reason for rejecting a celebration of the coming of the Lord into the world, is Jesus did not specifically command it? Jesus did not specifically command a number of things in our world that we all take part in.

Also, it is not only Jesus death that is important to our salvation. Paul points out that if Jesus was not raised, we are still in our sins. Why not celebrate the Resurection in that case?

beeman

[Gabby]

barryrob,
Wedding ceremonies are rife with pagan practices. One of the most sacred institutions ordained by God.

chris

[barryrob]

barryrob,
Wedding ceremonies are rife with pagan practices. One of the most sacred institutions ordained by God.

chrisIn some things yes, it has been influcnced by paganisum, but what would one expect in view of:-

Revelation 12:9


So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.





thus the need for care in what we except and do!





Barryrob

[Gabby]

In some things yes, it has been influcnced by paganisum, but what would one expect in view of:-

Revelation 12:9


So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.





thus the need for care in what we except and do!





Barryrob






Do you wear a wedding ring, does it have a diamond? Did your wife wear white? Throw any rice? Garter? Did you not see your wife's wedding dress before the ceremony? ect.

Legalism requires that if there is one offence made then the whole is broken.

[barryrob]

Do you wear a wedding ring, does it have a diamond? Did your wife wear white? Throw any rice? Garter? Did you not see your wife's wedding dress before the ceremony? ect.

Legalism requires that if there is one offence made then the whole is broken.
Do you wear a wedding ring No

does it have a diamond NO

Did your wife wear white NO

Throw any rice NO

Garter NO

Did you not see your wife's wedding dress before the ceremony No Wedding dress worn.

ect ???

Any more?


Legalism requires that if there is one offence made then the whole is broken.
No quite so as the aincet Jews used finger rings which as the pagans did, ear rings as the pagans did but without the same meanings!

Barryrob

[Gabby]

Do you wear a wedding ring No

does it have a diamond NO

Did your wife wear white NO

Throw any rice NO

Garter NO

Did you not see your wife's wedding dress before the ceremony No Wedding dress worn.

ect ???

Any more?


Legalism requires that if there is one offence made then the whole is broken.
No quite so as the aincet Jews used finger rings which as the pagans did, ear rings as the pagans did but without the same meanings!

Barryrob


Yeah, there's much more. cutting the cake, cans tied to the rear of the car, a liscensed minister or justice of the peace and on and on.

Are you even married?

Interesting, we do certain things on Dec. 25, like gift giving, singing, eating turkey, but it doesn't have the same meaning those pagans put on it.

chris

[Sparko]

In some things yes, it has been influcnced by paganisum, but what would one expect in view of:-

Revelation 12:9


So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.





thus the need for care in what we except and do!





Barryrob





So why is it OK for you Jehovah Witnesses to celebrate Wedding Anniversaries, if they have pagan overtones and history? Isn't that why you are claiming we should not celebrate birthdays and christmas, becase they have pagan origins?

Looks like a double standard.

[Sparko]

No quite so as the aincet Jews used finger rings which as the pagans did, ear rings as the pagans did but without the same meanings!

Barryrob
So what you are saying is that it is not the symbols themselves that are pagan, but the meaning the people assign to the symbols?

Don't be a hypocrite! You denounce Christmas trees, crosses, gift giving, and such and claim they are evil because they have pagan origins, even though people do not assign those pagan meanings to them today. And you claim above that it was OK for ancient Jews to use finger rings and ear rings just like the pagans did, because they had different meanings to the Jews.

[barryrob]

So what you are saying is that it is not the symbols themselves that are pagan, but the meaning the people assign to the symbols?

Don't be a hypocrite! You denounce Christmas trees, crosses, gift giving, and such and claim they are evil because they have pagan origins, even though people do not assign those pagan meanings to them today. And you claim above that it was OK for ancient Jews to use finger rings and ear rings just like the pagans did, because they had different meanings to the Jews.
You obviosly totaly missed the point of this:-

"So what you are saying is that it is not the symbols themselves that are pagan, but the meaning the people assign to the symbols?"


God did not stop the wearing certian types of items but he did other types of itmes:-



Deuteronomy 4:15-20




"And YOU must take good care of YOUR souls, because YOU did not see any form on the day of Jehovah’s speaking to YOU in Ho´reb out of the middle of the fire, 16 that YOU may not act ruinously and may not really make for yourselves a carved image, the form of any symbol, the representation of male or female, 17 the representation of any beast that is in the earth, the representation of any winged bird that flies in the heavens, 18 the representation of anything moving on the ground, the representation of any fish that is in the waters under the earth; 19 and that you may not raise your eyes to the heavens and indeed see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the army of the heavens, and actually get seduced and bow down to them and serve them, which Jehovah your God has apportioned to all the peoples under the whole heavens. 20 But YOU are the ones Jehovah took that he might bring YOU out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to become a people of private ownership to him as at this day.






It is quite clear to see that God Jehovah condems items that have a false religious overtone as most of the things mentioned in the above text where religious symbols used by the Demon worshiping Egyptians. If you look through the list you will see that most of them are used in the Chiurch today as religious symbols, e.g. the "Fish" (ITHEOS), "the representation of male or female" a sex symbol, the "Sun" is the Halo or Nimbus above the head of various saints and Jesus in Art and the "Sun" burst some alter crosses, the "Star" on Icons of Mary is the Satr of the Babynonian Goddes Ishtar, "Bird" a Dove is used as a symbol for a God -holy spirit-, to name but a few of objets of veneration.





Your comment show lack of grasping the fundamentals of what Idolatry constitutes perhaps this is because the Church has misled 1,000,000,000s of people over the centuries into believing that which "is bad is good and that which is good is bad" (Isa. 5 20) hence its toleration in its ranks of so many wicked things. Remember Jesus was a Jew and whole hartedly and followed the above and thus taught his true followers the same.




Barryrob

[barryrob]

So why is it OK for you Jehovah Witnesses to celebrate Wedding Anniversaries, if they have pagan overtones and history? Isn't that why you are claiming we should not celebrate birthdays and christmas, becase they have pagan origins?

Looks like a double standard.
Some do some do not!

[Sparko]

You obviosly totaly missed the point of this:-

"So what you are saying is that it is not the symbols themselves that are pagan, but the meaning the people assign to the symbols?"


God did not stop the wearing certian types of items but he did other types of itmes:-


Your comment show lack of grasping the fundamentals of what Idolatry constitutes perhaps this is because the Church has misled 1,000,000,000s of people over the centuries into believing that which "is bad is good and that which is good is bad" (Isa. 5 20) hence its toleration in its ranks of so many wicked things. Remember Jesus was a Jew and whole hartedly and followed the above and thus taught his true followers the same.
Barryrob

Your comment shows a lack of logical thinking. The point is that JW's say we should not celebrate Christmas, partly becase is it full of pagan symbolism. But then you turn around and say that pagan symbols are not pagan if they have a different meaning to a believer (e.g. rings)

Well you can't have it both ways. To do so is to be hypocritical.

When you can't answer a question or accusation directly, you seem to ignore it and respond with some inane dodge, or repeat yourself as if that makes the logic of the question or accusation go away. Well, it doesn't.

[Sparko]

About JW's celebrating wedding anniversaries:

Some do some do not!
But if some do, then it is not evil in the eyes of your church, is it?

And if it allowed by the watchtower, then why are birth anniversaries considered wrong and pagan? Wedding anniversaries are just as pagan, and as far as I know we are not given instructions to celebrate wedding anniversaries in the bible, and that is one of the points you argue against Christmas and birthdays, that we are not commanded to celebrate them in the bible so they are wrong.

Again, a double standard.

[barryrob]

Your comment shows a lack of logical thinking. The point is that JW's say we should not celebrate Christmas, partly becase is it full of pagan symbolism. But then you turn around and say that pagan symbols are not pagan if they have a different meaning to a believer (e.g. rings)

Well you can't have it both ways. To do so is to be hypocritical.

When you can't answer a question or accusation directly, you seem to ignore it and respond with some inane dodge, or repeat yourself as if that makes the logic of the question or accusation go away. Well, it doesn't.
Do not try and twist my words:-
"But then you turn around and say that pagan symbols are not pagan if they have a different meaning to a believer (e.g. rings)."
I said to God!!


Truth is truth as way say something differant, you can take it or leave it, its up to you.

Barryrob

[Jedidiah]

Barryrob,

It is unfortunate that as we focus on values close to us our emotions often get involved. I see a pattern of low respect on both sides of this issue. I do hope I have not followed, or appeared to follow this pattern in my posts.

My parents are JW and when I ask questions that push to detailed explanations it is only because discourse with my folks has reached a limit. I do not want to break the family ties without need. At this point my folks and I have each agreed to trust the salvation of the others to the hand of the One True God.

I would appreciate, very much, an explanation of the Christmas issue with attention to the details I have asked about. I will, very possibly ask for further clarification as I find problems, from my perspective, with aspects of your answers. These 'pushy' questions are not intended to be disrespectful, but rather seek to understand.

beeman

[barryrob]

So your reason for rejecting a celebration of the coming of the Lord into the world, is Jesus did not specifically command it? Jesus did not specifically command a number of things in our world that we all take part in.

Also, it is not only Jesus death that is important to our salvation. Paul points out that if Jesus was not raised, we are still in our sins. Why not celebrate the Resurection in that case?

beemanIf you are talking about the Easter celebration it also is steeped in Paganism it is even named after the pagan Goddess it glorifies:-

"The English name Easter, like the German Ostern, probably derives from Eostur, the Norse word for the spring season, and not from Eostre, the name of an Anglo-Saxon goddess."—The Encyclopaedia of Religion.

As is clearly seen from it's attendant symbols of fertility such as Eggs, and Rabbits etc.. As Jesus did not tell us to render worship this way and niether is it recorded in the Book of Acts that the early Christians followed such a religious practice.


We must all note this point:-

2 Corinthians 11:14
for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light.

and why? So he can make a religon that to all intense purposes looks right but is in fact a counterfit of the true faith as found in the Bible, so as it is of his making any service rendered through it does not go to Jehovah but goes to him. This is his way of getting uninformed humans to do what Jesus refused to do at:-

Matthew 4:8-10
Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and he said to him: "All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me." Then Jesus said to him: "Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’"

A 1/2 hr. on the www searching about the origins of Easter will show where it comes from.

Barryrob

[barryrob]

Since I do not know of anyone who claims that the 25th of December is the day Jesus was born, I do not know anyone guilty of the lie you are pointing at. The Christians I know remember the birth of the the savior on that day because it is the day we remember it as a group, not because anyone pretends that it is THE day. Why not celebrate the coming of the Messiah into this world?

How about an answer to the question I asked originally. Then, using the same logic, woulld it be acceptable to God to celebrate the birth of His annointed saviour as long as we reject the pagan elements?

beeman
The very concept of celerbrating any birthday is not of the God of the Bible:-

Reasaong form the scriptures p. 69 by WTBTS
"How did early Christians and Jews of Bible times view birthday celebrations?
"The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period in general."—The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander (translated by Henry John Rose), p. 190.

"The later Hebrews looked on the celebration of birthdays as a part of idolatrous worship, a view which would be abundantly confirmed by what they saw of the common observances associated with these days."—The Imperial Bible-Dictionary (London, 1874), edited by Patrick Fairbairn, Vol. I, p. 225."


It is a pagan idea directly related to Astrorlogy and protecting spirits to be shuned by Christians.

Barryrob

[Sparko]

The very concept of celerbrating any birthday is not of the God of the Bible:-
Even the angels celebrated the Birth of Jesus.

Luke 2: 11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord. 12This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger."
13 Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,
14 "Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests."



Reasaong form the scriptures p. 69 by WTBTS
"How did early Christians and Jews of Bible times view birthday celebrations?
"The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period in general."—The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander (translated by Henry John Rose), p. 190.

"The later Hebrews looked on the celebration of birthdays as a part of idolatrous worship, a view which would be abundantly confirmed by what they saw of the common observances associated with these days."—The Imperial Bible-Dictionary (London, 1874), edited by Patrick Fairbairn, Vol. I, p. 225."
I am sorry but quoting what some dusty guys said 150 years ago has no bearing on what was true 2000 years ago. What evidence do they give that this was so?


It is a pagan idea directly related to Astrorlogy and protecting spirits to be shuned by Christians.

Huh?

Colossians 2: 16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

[barryrob]

I am sorry but quoting what some dusty guys said 150 years ago has no bearing on what was true 2000 years ago. What evidence do they give that this was so?
The Bible is a lot older than that does the same apply to that then?

Truth does not change with age!

[Sparko]

The Bible is a lot older than that does the same apply to that then?

Truth does not change with age!
My posts are not smorgasbords where you should feel free to pick and choose which parts to reply to and which to ignore. If you want to respond to me, at least have the courtesy to respond to my salient arguments and not ignore them.

That said, the bible is truth because it is the word of God. The words of men might be true or not depending on what evidence they have for their claims. You just quoted a quote of a translation of a quote of a conclusion. That is not evidence. Go back to school.

[barryrob]

Huh?

I reply to what I can when I can In my time not yours with all due respect!

According to authors Ralph and Adelin Linton, there is a definite connection between astrology and birthdays. They observe in their book The Lore of Birthdays: "Mesopotamia and Egypt, the cradles of civilization, were also the first lands in which men remembered and honoured their birthdays. The keeping of birthday records was important in ancient times principally because a birth date was essential for the casting of a horoscope."

Barryrob

[Sparko]

Colossians 2: 16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

[Gabby]

I reply to what I can when I can In my time not yours with all due respect!

According to authors Ralph and Adelin Linton, there is a definite connection between astrology and birthdays. They observe in their book The Lore of Birthdays: "Mesopotamia and Egypt, the cradles of civilization, were also the first lands in which men remembered and honoured their birthdays. The keeping of birthday records was important in ancient times principally because a birth date was essential for the casting of a horoscope."

Barryrob


He's busy over in the Witches, Wiccans and Pagan thread, complimenting them on their spirituality.

[barryrob]

He's busy over in the Witches, Wiccans and Pagan thread, complimenting them on their spirituality.Truth hurts doesn't it.

I have spoken with many in my time so if you do not like then shape up then you will be complemented. "Jealuosy" is 'rottensess to the bones', Soloman.

The ones I have talked to hate War unlike lots of so called 'chrsitians' that praise the "Prince Of Peace" then murder babies, children, and women in war. If you do not like the heat say out of the Kitchen. I speak as I find weither you like it or not!!



Barryob

[barryrob]

Colossians 2: 16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
The above is talking about the Mosaic Law or Torah and that Christians are not under it any more because Christ died doing away with it and all seasonal days etc..!



The text above you have used has less than nothing to do with the topic of this thread as it is relating to ancient Jewish religious practices and Law and shows that followers of Jesus Christ that to follow their –Jewish- special days is useless in pleasing God as the Law is now finished with because of the sacrifice of Jesus, the lamb of God and Greater Passover.



So how much more useless to follow things that come from ancient pagan religious practises which it the topic theme of this thread as we are dealing with post Jewish matters.



Barryrob

[barryrob]

barryrob,
Wedding ceremonies are rife with pagan practices. One of the most sacred institutions ordained by God.

chris
True but they where human additions, it that not so, then do not do them, except that which are required by the Law as Jesus said render to Caesar Caesar’s things but God's things to God. Then avoid that which is obviously pagan.

Barryrob

[Sparko]

The above is talking about the Mosaic Law or Torah and that Christians are not under it any more because Christ died doing away with it and all seasonal days etc..!



The text above you have used has less than nothing to do with the topic of this thread as it is relating to ancient Jewish religious practices and Law and shows that followers of Jesus Christ that to follow their –Jewish- special days is useless in pleasing God as the Law is now finished with because of the sacrifice of Jesus, the lamb of God and Greater Passover.



So how much more useless to follow things that come from ancient pagan religious practises which it the topic theme of this thread as we are dealing with post Jewish matters.



Barryrob
The passage is not saying you can't have religious festivals, new moon celebrations or sabbaths. It is saying legalism about those things is WRONG. If you want to celebrate them, then thats fine. If you don't want to, then that is fine too.

It is saying don't let people like YOU tell us whether we can celebrate such things or not. It is saying that people like YOU who are legalistic to the point of insanity try to SEEM like you are godly, but you have lost your way, because Christ came to FREE us from the law, not put us under MORE regulations. my comments on what these verses mean in this color below

Colossian 2: 13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=COL+2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_119860978_2)] God made you[3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=COL+2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_119860978_3)] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=COL+2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_119860978_4)]

we are no longer bound by legalistic regulations. we are free in Christ.


16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Don't let anyone tell you you can't celebrate a religious festival if you want to, or tell you that you must if you don't want to. They can't judge you because you are free under Christ.

17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

These things do not matter because Christ is the real thing.

18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

Don't let people who believe in legalism (false humility) and who worhip ANGELS (sound like you Jehovah's Witnesses who think Jesus was an Angel) tell you what to do. To put your faith in such works is to cut yourself off from your connection with Christ.

20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.

Since you no longer are subject to the law or this world, why do you still let legalistic jerks tell you what to do? They tell you "Don't eat Pork! Don't drink caffiene or alcohol! Don't do this or that!" But these things do not matter in the long run. These rules are all just rules made up by legalistic men and they will perish.

23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

These legalistic rules might appear to be godly and earn your way to God, but they are false and have no value in truly changing your ways. Only God can change your heart.

--

[Gabby]

Truth hurts doesn't it.

I have spoken with many in my time so if you do not like then shape up then you will be complemented. "Jealuosy" is 'rottensess to the bones', Soloman.

The ones I have talked to hate War unlike lots of so called 'chrsitians' that praise the "Prince Of Peace" then murder babies, children, and women in war. If you do not like the heat say out of the Kitchen. I speak as I find weither you like it or not!!



Barryob


:no:

Who says I like war?? Who says I'm for the war or any war? Who says I'm for the killing of anyone!? For your info. I'm against the war and I'm against capital punishment. How about you??

Who says I'm jealous?? :no:

As a JW what would your fellow JW's think about you fellowshiping with Pagans, Witches and Wiccans?

Your welcome to speak however you like, but your speach betrays you as a hypocrite.

chris

[barryrob]

:no:

Who says I like war?? Who says I'm for the war or any war? Who says I'm for the killing of anyone!? For your info. I'm against the war and I'm against capital punishment. How about you??

Who says I'm jealous?? :no:

As a JW what would your fellow JW's think about you fellowshiping with Pagans, Witches and Wiccans?

Your welcome to speak however you like, but your speach betrays you as a hypocrite.

chrisYou obviously do not understand the meaning of "Fellowship" and of commendation.

Jesus commended a pagan Roman centurian as he had not seen faith like his among the Jews (such as I do not see in the churches):-



Matthew 8:5-10




When he entered into Ca·pernaum, an army officer came to him, entreating him 6 and saying: "Sir, my manservant is laid up in the house with paralysis, being terribly tormented." 7 He said to him: "When I get there I will cure him." 8 In reply the army officer said: "Sir, I am not a fit man for you to enter under my roof*, but just say the word and my manservant will be healed. 9 For I too am a man placed under authority, having soldiers under me, and I say to this one, ‘Be on your way!’ and he is on his way, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it." 10 Hearing that, Jesus became amazed and said to those following him: "I tell YOU the truth, With no one in Israel have I found so great a faith.


*Thus not an Israelite


Anyone how "fellowships" with any of the churches of Chrsitiandom show taset support for the blood they shed in Warfare as they are part of its oranization and it war machine. If you do not agree with War then as Jesus said:-



Revelation 18:4-8




And I heard another voice out of heaven say: "Get out of her*, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind. 6 Render to her even as she herself rendered, and do to her twice as much, yes, twice the number of the things she did; in the cup in which she put a mixture put twice as much of the mixture for her. 7 To the extent that she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury, to that extent give her torment and mourning. For in her heart she keeps saying, ‘I sit a queen, and I am no widow, and I shall never see mourning.’ 8 That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong.





*Pagandom and Christiandom as false religions






"Who says I'm jealous??" the why even comment?





I commend respect for this Earth The God made in anyone I see, as I do not see much more the the earth being exploted by religons including the Church with not more more in mind that an ongoing fight for power, that is why I HATE the institutions of the Christiandom/Churches as they are blantant power mad wor mongers just like the non 'chritsian' religions in the near East!





And they say 'peace on earth to all men" (as long as he is one of us and agrees with us or we will kill him or have him killed or find an excuse to do it) I have not seen that among Wiccans and for this they are better that the Churches and for this they deserve commendation from anybody even you.






Barryrob

[Sparko]

You obviously do not understand the meaning of "Fellowship" and of commendation.

Jesus commended a pagan Roman centurian as he had not seen faith like his among the Jews (such as I do not see in the churches):-


Jesus commended the centurian for his faith IN HIM (Jesus) - not his faith in paganism.

Sheesh.

[Gabby]

You obviously do not understand the meaning of "Fellowship" and of commendation.

Jesus commended a pagan Roman centurian as he had not seen faith like his among the Jews (such as I do not see in the churches):-



Matthew 8:5-10




When he entered into Ca·pernaum, an army officer came to him, entreating him 6 and saying: "Sir, my manservant is laid up in the house with paralysis, being terribly tormented." 7 He said to him: "When I get there I will cure him." 8 In reply the army officer said: "Sir, I am not a fit man for you to enter under my roof*, but just say the word and my manservant will be healed. 9 For I too am a man placed under authority, having soldiers under me, and I say to this one, ‘Be on your way!’ and he is on his way, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it." 10 Hearing that, Jesus became amazed and said to those following him: "I tell YOU the truth, With no one in Israel have I found so great a faith.


*Thus not an Israelite


Anyone how "fellowships" with any of the churches of Chrsitiandom show taset support for the blood they shed in Warfare as they are part of its oranization and it war machine. If you do not agree with War then as Jesus said:-



Revelation 18:4-8




And I heard another voice out of heaven say: "Get out of her*, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind. 6 Render to her even as she herself rendered, and do to her twice as much, yes, twice the number of the things she did; in the cup in which she put a mixture put twice as much of the mixture for her. 7 To the extent that she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury, to that extent give her torment and mourning. For in her heart she keeps saying, ‘I sit a queen, and I am no widow, and I shall never see mourning.’ 8 That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong.





*Pagandom and Christiandom as false religions






"Who says I'm jealous??" the why even comment?





I commend respect for this Earth The God made in anyone I see, as I do not see much more the the earth being exploted by religons including the Church with not more more in mind that an ongoing fight for power, that is why I HATE the institutions of the Christiandom/Churches as they are blantant power mad wor mongers just like the non 'chritsian' religions in the near East!





And they say 'peace on earth to all men" (as long as he is one of us and agrees with us or we will kill him or have him killed or find an excuse to do it) I have not seen that among Wiccans and for this they are better that the Churches and for this they deserve commendation from anybody even you.






Barryrob





Fellowship - To share in common
- companionship, or friendly association with others
- a group of people or society sharing a common interest or aim
ect.

Jealousy - Maybe I misunderstood what you were getting at with your "Jealuosy" is 'rottensess to the bones', Soloman. If I did then I'm sorry. But then I must say "Why even the comment?"

As far as the centurian goes, JohnSparks said it well. See his post.

Anyhow what does the exploitation of the earth have to do with your op?? What does war have to do with your op??

Christiandom is not my religion. I don't worship Christiandom.

Anyways, I am not going to respond to anything more that is off topic, and as John has stated, where you do not address my points concerning Christmas I will take it as you conceeding to my points.

chris

[barryrob]

Fellowship - To share in common
- companionship, or friendly association with others
- a group of people or society sharing a common interest or aim
ect.

Jealousy - Maybe I misunderstood what you were getting at with your If I did then I'm sorry. But then I must say "Why even the comment?"

As far as the centurian goes, JohnSparks said it well. See his post.

Anyhow what does the exploitation of the earth have to do with your op?? What does war have to do with your op??

Christiandom is not my religion. I don't worship Christiandom.

Anyways, I am not going to respond to anything more that is off topic, and as John has stated, where you do not address my points concerning Christmas I will take it as you conceeding to my points.

chrisSo those Troops who claim the faith of Jesus and go to war after eating there Turkey and Plum Pudding and after the priest of Christendom Churches bless them and pray for Gods blessing on them. The following day they go a murder others humans while finishing of the rest of the Mince Pies as they offer humans sacrifices on the alter of war and bless the prince of peace. If you cannot see the connection it is that you don not want to see it, I became plan to me at 13.



When I was 13 I when to all the D-Day Beaches and in the English, U.S., Germans cemeteries looked at all the Crosses of all the 'Christian' soldiers who no doubt enjoyed their Turkey at Christmas and ended in a 6ft plot of ground for serving their so called God of peace whom they sung carols to at Christmas and thought nothing of sending them to die in the name of ‘peace’ and I studied the wars which only served to confirm I had made the right decision, to say way from the church as they where a waist of time.



It dawned on me just what it meant when Jesus said "those who live by 'the sword will die by the sword' and for what?



So their descendants can celebrate Christmas whilst destroying the Air, Sea, and Earth by more war, pollution, immorality that the church supports while putting up their Christmas lights praising the prince of peace and sending the ammunition to the Troops to do more killing. What a total waist of life on all sides. What was came to my mind was you will be peaceful or we will kill you your babies your women and ask for the God of Christmas the bless all we do as we do it in his name.



If they had been taught the Bible properly they would have know according to prophecy the Hiltler and all the others powers would be a passing phase in a blood stained history of failure to rule properly and not worth dying for as Jesus is the only worth dying for because it is only He that will bring True Peace to this Earth.



Now that’s what war has to do here hypocrisy in it plainest from which keeps millions away from the churches as it did me until I found what Jesus really meant in his saying as recorded in the Bible.



I was saw the choice Christendom (the churches which I had rejected as useless) or Christianity and chose The Christianity that Jesus preached The Greatest Jehovah’s Witness to walk the face of this earth ever so I thus rejected the pseudo Christian churches Totally now and all their useless festivals as they have no effect on masking people to become truly peaceful, kind, Loving, merciful, to which history adequately testifies across the history of the Church particularly in the 20th and now the 21st century.



And I am very glad to say the least as I can see clearly the difference of those who celebrate Christmas and those who truly Follow “The Prince Of Peace” “King Of kings” Jesus, The Son Of Jehovah.



That is what place War has here



Barryrob

[Gabby]

I'm done chatting with you barryrob. You have some serious issues, much more than I able to deal with. So I dust my sandals off and go my way.

chris


ps why don't you go and ask those in the witches, wiccans and pagan thread about the war. I bet you'd be surprised.

[barryrob]

I'm done chatting with you barryrob. You have some serious issues, much more than I able to deal with. So I dust my sandals off and go my way.

chris


ps why don't you go and ask those in the witches, wiccans and pagan thread about the war. I bet you'd be surprised.
They do not claim to serve Jesus.

I take issues with those who claim to and show them the reality of what they are doing and expose falsehoods like Jesus did with no shame!

Barryod

[Sparko]

When I was 13 I when to all the D-Day Beaches and in the English, U.S., Germans cemeteries looked at all the Crosses of all the 'Christian' soldiers who no doubt enjoyed their Turkey at Christmas and ended in a 6ft plot of ground for serving their so called God of peace whom they sung carols to at Christmas and thought nothing of sending them to die in the name of ‘peace’ and I studied the wars which only served to confirm I had made the right decision, to say way from the church as they where a waist of time.



It dawned on me just what it meant when Jesus said "those who live by 'the sword will die by the sword' and for what?
For WHAT? So YOU, a pugnacious, spiteful, ungrateful, legalistic, twit could freely express your disdain for their sacrifice using a free internet, freedom of speech, and you can walk down to your local restaurant and get your fish and chips without having to bow and scrape to a heinous dictator and yelling "heil hitler" at every turn.

THAT'S what for.

You are beginning to sicken me Barryrob. I had thought you were a nice guy, but your disrespect for those who sacrifice their lives for your freedom is the last straw.

You are nothing but a leach on society. Go move to some deserted island where you dont take advantage of those who died for your freedom.

[barryrob]

For WHAT? So YOU, a pugnacious, spiteful, ungrateful, legalistic, twit could freely express your disdain for their sacrifice using a free internet, freedom of speech, and you can walk down to your local restaurant and get your fish and chips without having to bow and scrape to a heinous dictator and yelling "heil hitler" at every turn.

THAT'S what for.

You are beginning to sicken me Barryrob. I had thought you were a nice guy, but your disrespect for those who sacrifice their lives for your freedom is the last straw.

You are nothing but a leach on society. Go move to some deserted island where you dont take advantage of those who died for your freedom.

[/color]
You missed the whole point again John!!



For the sake of repetition, if they had been taught the Bible correctly they would have know that world powers involved in WW2 would just be a evil passing phase in the history of this earth with all the death and misery they spread over the earth and would soon be gone for good, Hitler (glad to say) went a lot quicker than the rest who do much the same as he did but are able to make themselves look more expectable whilst doing it.



For argument sake the natives that the English kicked of their Island in the Indian Ocean so they could sell it to the US for an Air Force Base thus turning a peaceful island into a harbinger of death and destroying the lives of hundreds of peace loving people and publicly lied to cover it up which has now been exposed via the TV reporter John pliger. If you want to bow done to them do so, as for me I will stick with Jesus the prince of peace and bringer of true justice.





Personaly I would rather die in peace than support war with a full belly, which I just might have to do one day.

I do not disrespect those who died, it make me sick to see they what they died for has been pushed aside for the sake of more militery power, commersial greed, and by the church who now condone the immoralites they died for. Ask yourself if these men and women came back to see what has been done to this world they fought and died for what would they think?

I have spoken and worked with ww2 soldiers (my uncel in Burma ww2, brother in law (in Burma against the communists) Para. from the battle of montie cassino to name a few) who are sickened by what the world powers whom they fought so hard for and seen thier comraides in arms die for have done to this world. So I think what they have to say bears more weight then your oneside view of this matter.

Barryrob

[Sparko]

The only point I missed is the one on the top of your head.

You are an ungrateful twit. Those that died for your freedom deserve your respect. If America did not come over and save your sorry hide, you would be wearing lederhosen, yelling heil hitler and doing the goosestep.

And I doubt you would be a Jehovah's Witness. That would have been outlawed.

Grow up.

And how did you turn a discussion about Christmas into one about war?

Your pagan cult has no business telling me what I should and should not celebrate.

[barryrob]

The only point I missed is the one on the top of your head.

You are an ungrateful twit. Those that died for your freedom deserve your respect. If America did not come over and save your sorry hide, you would be wearing lederhosen, yelling heil hitler and doing the goosestep.

And I doubt you would be a Jehovah's Witness. That would have been outlawed.

Grow up.

And how did you turn a discussion about Christmas into one about war?

Your pagan cult has no business telling me what I should and should not celebrate.
'Stick and stone may brake my bone but names will never hurt me' so goes the children’s rhyme. Your insults I do not mind as Jesus was treated much the same and told us to expect it also so just you fulfil his words, but never mind there are far more important things to talk of.


You still have totally miss the point of Jesus coming to this earth to offer himself as a sacrifice to save humans and to bring peace between them and God and each other.


I do not tell you what to do I show you the application of Bible principles like Jesus did in his day which most did not like then either.


We where outlawed in ALL the world powers (still are in some) that took part in the mass slaughtering of the WW2 particularly in Germany as we where sent to the Concentration Camps and some of our brothers beheaded as the Nazis did not consider us fit to wastes bullets on us Bible Students as we where called then. They also put my brother among the prostitutes and Black people and ones they the Nazis also considered to be sub human (as that is how they thought of us more or less) trying to brake our faith in the Prince Of Peace the one who has established peace not by the celebrating of some day but living peace day to day regardless of the cost to self (Matt 5:5). So we went on about preaching the Kingdom message to them as soon some of them became Christians right in the camps. Adolph Hitler said in one of his Nuremberg rails the he would annihilate the Bible Students (JWs) out of the Fatherland, interestingly more Jehovah's witnesses came out of the Concentration Camps than went in.



Freedom in this world is a very relative thing at best it differs in degree from nation to nation but men do not bring REAL freedom as their freedom is slavish devotion to some form of political system to which they demand the kind of devotion that only belongs to God and his son Jesus Christ this I reject, I only have one Leader Jesus:-



Matthew 23:10 Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for YOUR Leader is one, the Christ.


This you do not seem to like!?


Here are the things the Holy Spirit produced in the follower of the Prince of Peace, Jesus:-


Galatians 5:22-24
On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus impaled the flesh together with its passions and desires.


How strange War seem to be missing????


Now lets look at the other side of the coin:-


Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, 20 idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, 21 envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.


How strange again here we see the qualities that manifest themselves in all humans during the Wars of those who claim to worship the "Prince of Peace" during Christmas e.g. "enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions"


and here is also what God himself says on the pages of the Bible about humans that act in such a way:-


"As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom" so is becomes quite clear that God does not agree with their actions in War in any way as they have NO part in his "kingdom" arrangement or the Prince Of Peace that celebrate on the so call Mass To Christ or Christmas.

That is what God says in the Bible John I believe it and do my best to live by it. This I do not see in the Church otherwise I would be with them.

What does worry me herein John is the you seem to agree with some of the ideas of A. Hitler you agree to going to War!

Christian Love
Barryrob

[barryrob]

The passage is not saying you can't have religious festivals, new moon celebrations or sabbaths. It is saying legalism about those things is WRONG. If you want to celebrate them, then thats fine. If you don't want to, then that is fine too.

It is saying don't let people like YOU tell us whether we can celebrate such things or not. It is saying that people like YOU who are legalistic to the point of insanity try to SEEM like you are godly, but you have lost your way, because Christ came to FREE us from the law, not put us under MORE regulations. my comments on what these verses mean in this color below

Colossian 2: 13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=COL+2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_119860978_2)] God made you[3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=COL+2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_119860978_3)] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=COL+2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_119860978_4)]

we are no longer bound by legalistic regulations. we are free in Christ.


16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Don't let anyone tell you you can't celebrate a religious festival if you want to, or tell you that you must if you don't want to. They can't judge you because you are free under Christ.

17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

These things do not matter because Christ is the real thing.

18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

Don't let people who believe in legalism (false humility) and who worhip ANGELS (sound like you Jehovah's Witnesses who think Jesus was an Angel) tell you what to do. To put your faith in such works is to cut yourself off from your connection with Christ.

20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.

Since you no longer are subject to the law or this world, why do you still let legalistic jerks tell you what to do? They tell you "Don't eat Pork! Don't drink caffiene or alcohol! Don't do this or that!" But these things do not matter in the long run. These rules are all just rules made up by legalistic men and they will perish.

23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

These legalistic rules might appear to be godly and earn your way to God, but they are false and have no value in truly changing your ways. Only God can change your heart.

--

This is so so, but Jesus still only left only one celebration “The Lord’s Evening Meal” and the bit about angels but that goes with out saying!

[Sparko]

Barryrob,

I want to apologize for getting mad at you and calling you names. I was wrong to do so.

But I come from a military family. My dad was in vietnam and my brother was in Desert Storm to help free Kuwait. I have know many soldiers who willingly fought and even suffered and died for the freedom of people like you. People who do not appreciate what a gift they were given of freedom. people who take things like religious freedom for granted and seem to denigrate and even dispise the people who made your freedom possible. In this country, vietnam veterans were treated with contempt and many veterans have suffered depression and illness from their own countrymen's treatment of them. So when I see someone like you who talks down about soldier's and their contrbutions to our freedom, it makes my blood boil.

You can hold whatever opinion you want. But don't push those opinions my way. I won't listen to you. I am sorry again for calling you names, but I am not sorry in any way about how I feel about people like you.

I am done with this thread. You are too stubborn to bother discussing anything with. When someone tries to reason with you, you just ignore their points and fall back to posting JW literature. When we point out the hypocricy of a pagan cult like yours calling US pagan for celebrating Christ's birth, you just post more JW literature.

Have fun living in your little closed off universe. Be sure to explain all this pagan stuff to Jesus when you stand before him in judgement. Maybe your wiccan buddies will be there to hold your hand.

[Gabby]

AMEN John! (((((((John))))))))

[barryrob]

Barryrob,

I want to apologize for getting mad at you and calling you names. I was wrong to do so.

But I come from a military family. My dad was in vietnam and my brother was in Desert Storm to help free Kuwait. I have know many soldiers who willingly fought and even suffered and died for the freedom of people like you. People who do not appreciate what a gift they were given of freedom. people who take things like religious freedom for granted and seem to denigrate and even dispise the people who made your freedom possible. In this country, vietnam veterans were treated with contempt and many veterans have suffered depression and illness from their own countrymen's treatment of them. So when I see someone like you who talks down about soldier's and their contrbutions to our freedom, it makes my blood boil.

You can hold whatever opinion you want. But don't push those opinions my way. I won't listen to you. I am sorry again for calling you names, but I am not sorry in any way about how I feel about people like you.

I am done with this thread. You are too stubborn to bother discussing anything with. When someone tries to reason with you, you just ignore their points and fall back to posting JW literature. When we point out the hypocricy of a pagan cult like yours calling US pagan for celebrating Christ's birth, you just post more JW literature.

Have fun living in your little closed off universe. Be sure to explain all this pagan stuff to Jesus when you stand before him in judgement. Maybe your wiccan buddies will be there to hold your hand.Hay no apology needed John I have no probs. with what you say I feel the same from the other end of the situation. My Granddad was Gassed in WW1 and it rotted his Lungs away, my 2 uncles where POWS under the Japanese so I know how you feel to some degree. My Brother in law (who died a few years ago) told me how when he went on patrol in the jungle they used illegal weapons a sawn of Shot gun and to make sure they kill they would open the Large ball cartage and fill the shot with Candle Wax so when it hit the target it exploded it, best in the chest/belly.



So do not assume I take anything for granted what they did, they leave priceless lessons for us to learn about peace if we can put aside our own personal feelings.


I do not view freedom the same as you do. The only freedom humans have is to worship God, as we are sinners who only deserve death. The freedom to worship God only comes from Him alone as this freedom can be done anywhere under any circumstance even the hardest of and any of times.


Yes I am stubben (if you want to put it like that) as you say for when I saw all the 1,000s of graves e.g. of all the US Solider in the greave yard for those who died on the beachhead of Utah and Omaha the size if a large Golf Coarse with a Sea of crosses and the odd Star for a Jew I felt stunned as I had been lead to believe of the “Give Me Death Or Glory” thinking, and it hit me like a stone in the face its about death with no glory just more death I felt sick to my heart then my Father took me on a tour of the Battle field of WW1 in France the following year and in the with more and more masses of Crosses for the allies and Black Marble for the German as I remember. That finished war in my eyes as a waist of life this is wrong from any view when I was 13/14 I have never lost that and never will. Then reading about the history of the Russian invasions when they a Had machine guns well behind their own line to shot deserts from the Front line and in WW1 they shot as deserts the are now know to have been suffering from shell shock and somewhat out of their mind due to Battle trauma, this also is wrong.


A few years ago I watched a TV program on the development of military weapons and the Armours show how the bullets (as then) where designed it tumble upon hitting the Target which would then roll the internal organs into a ball and the a bullet that saw designed to open into upon impact and splinter into many fine Needles to make the wound nearly inoperable.


Then I became informed in the Bible and saw the meaning of what Jesus had been talking about at last, I do not mean to offend but I cannot hold with carnal war in any way as there is a far more important spiritual warfare going on and it is taking 1,000,000s of casualties every year this is the war I must fight to the death and to its end and then world peace free for all (Matt .


Matthew 5:4-5
"Happy are those who mourn, since they will be comforted. 5 "Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.


Matthew 5:9
"Happy are the peaceable, since they will be called ‘sons of God.’


Sorry John I just cannot agree with your stand as I do not see Jesus in it our support the things I have outlined above!


As regards the Wiccans etc. they need our frendship because who else can they go to, Jesus died for them as well as us is that not so.


Barryrob

[Sparko]

Barryrob, you better just quit while you are ahead. Dont go making an enemy of me.

I don't want to hear your simpering mock sympathy while you use it as a platform to preach about how wrong these brave soldiers were who gave their lives for your freedom.

You are sad at the price war took on these soldiers and others. I get that. But you don't think their sacrifice was necessary and you don't appreciate that without them, you would not be on TWEB posting your contempt of their sacrifice for you.

So, please stop while I can remain halfway civil about it. I beg of you.

[barryrob]

Barryrob, you better just quit while you are ahead. Dont go making an enemy of me.

I don't want to hear your simpering mock sympathy while you use it as a platform to preach about how wrong these brave soldiers were who gave their lives for your freedom.

You are sad at the price war took on these soldiers and others. I get that. But you don't think their sacrifice was necessary and you don't appreciate that without them, you would not be on TWEB posting your contempt of their sacrifice for you.

So, please stop while I can remain halfway civil about it. I beg of you.
There is nothing mock about what I say and I simper to nothing and no one!!

[barryrob]

AMEN John! (((((((John))))))))You may agree with John but I wonder if you agree with Almighty God your maker and the one whom you say you obey and agree with on His ultimate view on all the militery?:-

Revelation 19:11-19
And I saw the heaven opened, and, look! a white horse. And the one seated upon it [JESUS] is called Faithful and True, and he [JESUS] judges and carries on war in righteousness. 12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and upon his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God [JESUS]. 14 Also, the armies that were in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. 15 And out of his mouth there protrudes a sharp long sword, that he may strike the nations with it, and he [JESUS] will shepherd them with a rod of iron. He treads too the winepress of the anger of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 And upon his outer garment, even upon his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. 17 I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he [JESUS] cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven: "Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, 18 that YOU may eat the fleshy parts of kings and the fleshy parts of military commanders and the fleshy parts of strong men and the fleshy parts of horses and of those seated upon them, and the fleshy parts of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great." 19 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage the war with the one seated on the horse [JESUS] and with his [JESUS] army.


Psalm 2:2
The kings of earth take their stand And high officials themselves have massed together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one [JESUS],



Psalm 2:4-9
The very One sitting in the heavens will laugh; Jehovah himself will hold them in derision. 5 At that time he will speak to them in his anger And in his hot displeasure he will disturb them, 6 [Saying:] "I, even I, have installed my king [JESUS] Upon Zion, my holy mountain." 7 Let me refer to the decree of Jehovah; He has said to me: "You are my son; I, today, I have become your father. 8 Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your own possession. 9 You [JESUS] will break them with an iron scepter, As though a potter’s vessel you [JESUS] will dash them to pieces."


Revelation 16:14
to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.




Revelation 16:16
And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Har-Magedon.


This is what GOD says in the Bible and I do not think you or anyone is stronger or more right than he -God- is somhow!!!!


AMEN COME LORD JESUS to clean this earth from the scourge of war and those who do it.


So I ask again do you agree with the Almighty God of the universe or a human(s) because it will show just where your faith and what your faith is in really in??

Barryrob

[Jin-Roh]

:cheers:
Merry Christmas

[Krusader]

Hay no apology needed John I have no probs. with what you say I feel the same from the other end of the situation. My Granddad was Gassed in WW1 and it rotted his Lungs away, my 2 uncles where POWS under the Japanese so I know how you feel to some degree. My Brother in law (who died a few years ago) told me how when he went on patrol in the jungle they used illegal weapons a sawn of Shot gun and to make sure they kill they would open the Large ball cartage and fill the shot with Candle Wax so when it hit the target it exploded it, best in the chest/belly.



So do not assume I take anything for granted what they did, they leave priceless lessons for us to learn about peace if we can put aside our own personal feelings.


I do not view freedom the same as you do. The only freedom humans have is to worship God, as we are sinners who only deserve death. The freedom to worship God only comes from Him alone as this freedom can be done anywhere under any circumstance even the hardest of and any of times.


Yes I am stubben (if you want to put it like that) as you say for when I saw all the 1,000s of graves e.g. of all the US Solider in the greave yard for those who died on the beachhead of Utah and Omaha the size if a large Golf Coarse with a Sea of crosses and the odd Star for a Jew I felt stunned as I had been lead to believe of the “Give Me Death Or Glory” thinking, and it hit me like a stone in the face its about death with no glory just more death I felt sick to my heart then my Father took me on a tour of the Battle field of WW1 in France the following year and in the with more and more masses of Crosses for the allies and Black Marble for the German as I remember. That finished war in my eyes as a waist of life this is wrong from any view when I was 13/14 I have never lost that and never will. Then reading about the history of the Russian invasions when they a Had machine guns well behind their own line to shot deserts from the Front line and in WW1 they shot as deserts the are now know to have been suffering from shell shock and somewhat out of their mind due to Battle trauma, this also is wrong.


A few years ago I watched a TV program on the development of military weapons and the Armours show how the bullets (as then) where designed it tumble upon hitting the Target which would then roll the internal organs into a ball and the a bullet that saw designed to open into upon impact and splinter into many fine Needles to make the wound nearly inoperable.


Then I became informed in the Bible and saw the meaning of what Jesus had been talking about at last, I do not mean to offend but I cannot hold with carnal war in any way as there is a far more important spiritual warfare going on and it is taking 1,000,000s of casualties every year this is the war I must fight to the death and to its end and then world peace free for all (Matt .


Matthew 5:4-5
"Happy are those who mourn, since they will be comforted. 5 "Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.


Matthew 5:9
"Happy are the peaceable, since they will be called ‘sons of God.’


Sorry John I just cannot agree with your stand as I do not see Jesus in it our support the things I have outlined above!


As regards the Wiccans etc. they need our frendship because who else can they go to, Jesus died for them as well as us is that not so.


Barryrob
Jehovah's Witnesses are hypocritical. Some, who became JWs after serving in the army/navy, etc., take veterans' pensions. They won't salute the flag, but sure as heck will stand with their hand out, not to mention the free medical services they receive.

Why not be like the Amish, who won't even accept Social Security benefits.

[Krusader]

If you are talking about the Easter celebration it also is steeped in Paganism it is even named after the pagan Goddess it glorifies:-

"The English name Easter, like the German Ostern, probably derives from Eostur, the Norse word for the spring season, and not from Eostre, the name of an Anglo-Saxon goddess."—The Encyclopaedia of Religion.

As is clearly seen from it's attendant symbols of fertility such as Eggs, and Rabbits etc.. As Jesus did not tell us to render worship this way and niether is it recorded in the Book of Acts that the early Christians followed such a religious practice.


We must all note this point:-

2 Corinthians 11:14
for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light.

and why? So he can make a religon that to all intense purposes looks right but is in fact a counterfit of the true faith as found in the Bible, so as it is of his making any service rendered through it does not go to Jehovah but goes to him. This is his way of getting uninformed humans to do what Jesus refused to do at:-

Matthew 4:8-10
Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and he said to him: "All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me." Then Jesus said to him: "Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’"

A 1/2 hr. on the www searching about the origins of Easter will show where it comes from.

Barryrob
Barryrob, Christians live under grace, something JWs no absolutely nothing about. Paul said that ALL things were lawful, though some may not be expedient. You should not be judging those that choose to celebrate the birth of Christ on Dec. 25 - because, to his own master he stands or fall, and stand he will, because the Lord is able to make him stand.

[barryrob]

Barryrob, Christians live under grace, something JWs no absolutely nothing about. Paul said that ALL things were lawful, though some may not be expedient. You should not be judging those that choose to celebrate the birth of Christ on Dec. 25 - because, to his own master he stands or fall, and stand he will, because the Lord is able to make him stand.


We do not Judge anyone (anyone can change the next day) but we do and will show people what they are doing that God will not except as Jesus said:-

John 3:19-21
Now this is the basis for judgment, that the light has come into the world but men have loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked. 20 For he that practices vile things hates the light and does not come to the light, in order that his works may not be reproved. 21 But he that does what is true comes to the light, in order that his works may be made manifest as having been worked in harmony with God."

Christmas is a work of Darkness!

Barryrob

[Krusader]

We do not Judge anyone (anyone can change the next day) but we do and will show people what they are doing that God will not except as Jesus said:-

John 3:19-21
Now this is the basis for judgment, that the light has come into the world but men have loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked. 20 For he that practices vile things hates the light and does not come to the light, in order that his works may not be reproved. 21 But he that does what is true comes to the light, in order that his works may be made manifest as having been worked in harmony with God."

Christmas is a work of Darkness!

Barryrob

Oh, Come On! Paul, himself, said not to judge another individual because they esteem one day above another. Read Galatians in a real translation and get back to me.

[Sparko]

Christmas is a work of Darkness!

Barryrob

Paul said not to judge others by what festivals they celebrate, Barryrob.

Colossians 2: 16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. 20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21“Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their selfimposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

[barryrob]

Paul said not to judge others by what festivals they celebrate, Barryrob.