What's the Abyss?

[Chuck_D]

I've always wondered about the "abyss" that the unclean spirits possessing the guy in Luke 8:31 were afraid of. Is it the same as the abyss that Satan is/will be bound in? Where is it? On earth, another "dimension"? If anyone has any insight I'd appreciate it.

[kofh2u]

I've always wondered about the "abyss" that the unclean spirits possessing the guy in Luke 8:31 were afraid of. Is it the same as the abyss that Satan is/will be bound in? Where is it? On earth, another "dimension"? If anyone has any insight I'd appreciate it.


Hello mr honest lawyer.

I just noticed your inquiry about the bottomless pit, the abyss.

I believe it is not the same thing as mentioned in luke 8:31 however.

Rev. 20:1 And I saw (mentally), as it were, an angel, (a psychic aspect to my thinking), come down from heaven (of thoughts in my mind), having the key (of social evolution) for the bottomless pit (of time) and a great chain (of social restraint) was in his hand.

[Sparko]

I've always wondered about the "abyss" that the unclean spirits possessing the guy in Luke 8:31 were afraid of. Is it the same as the abyss that Satan is/will be bound in? Where is it? On earth, another "dimension"? If anyone has any insight I'd appreciate it.
I believe it is a "holding cell" for demons until they are finally cast into the lake of fire after Jesus comes back. It is in another realm than ours, a spiritual realm. It is part of Hell.

It is mentioned also in Revelation 9:


1The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth.


Showing that some demons will be released to torment the people of the beast during the tribulation.

And in Revelation 20 it speaks of the devil being bound up in the Abyss until he is later set loose for a short time, then he will be thrown in the lake of fire.



1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

[...]

7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations ... 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

[kofh2u]

I believe it is a "holding cell" for demons until they are finally cast into the lake of fire after Jesus comes back. It is in another realm than ours, a spiritual realm. It is part of Hell.

It is mentioned also in Revelation 9:


1The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth.


Showing that some demons will be released to torment the people of the beast during the tribulation.

And in Revelation 20 it speaks of the devil being bound up in the Abyss until he is later set loose for a short time, then he will be thrown in the lake of fire.



1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

[...]

7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations ... 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.




You are not wrong.

The Book of Revelation can be understood on the seven levels by which it was sealed. Your intuitive and metaphydical understanding, as you express here, heaven, hell, devil, satan, and the whole understanding, we have long HAD to apply these ideas in order to grasp any meaning from the strange other-worldliness of this book. So, sure its OK.

What you say is essentially the same idea, expressed below on the more rational and concrete level, which itself is no better nor worse, only another seal broken:

Rev. 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, (the subtle cultural system of exploitive sexual mores), that old serpent, (cultural paganism), which is the Devil (of sexual license), and (libidinal lustfulness of) Satan, and bound him, the dragon, (throughout the) 1000 years (of the Dark Ages),

Rev. 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit (of time), and shut him up, (inhibiting the sexual freedom and adolescent license), and set the seal (of the Cross upon him), that he, (the dragon of that subcultural) should deceive the nations no more, till the (Dark Age of) one thousand years should be fulfilled: and after he, (the dragon of paganism), must be unchained, (the immorality reappearing) a little season (of @500 years).

Rev. 20:10 And the Devil (of paganistic sexual exploitation) that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, (that pool extinct psychic influences), where the beast (of self-centered, selfish, sexually motivated economics) and the false prophet (of misdirected technology) are, and their torment (in our culture) shall be (remembered) day and night for ever and ever.

[Sparko]

You are not wrong.

Rev. 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, (the subtle cultural system of exploitive sexual mores), that old serpent, (cultural paganism), which is the Devil (of sexual license), and (libidinal lustfulness of) Satan, and bound him, the dragon, (throughout the) 1000 years (of the Dark Ages) I know we are not supposed to debate in this particular forum, but since you responded to my post and twisted what I had to say, I have a question or two for you.

I have seen your posting of scripture before and I wonder why you insist on adding your (parenthetical definitions) to the words? Why not let the words stand as they are written? Why do you think you have the "right" definition? If the bible writers wanted to say that the serpent was (cultural paganism) I am sure they would have used those words.

I bet you would be upset if someone started putting their own interpretive definitions after each of your words when quoting you in a post, eh? :smile:

[kofh2u]

I have seen your posting of scripture before and I wonder why you insist on adding your (parenthetical definitions) to the words?

Why not let the words stand as they are written?

Why do you think you have the "right" definition?

If the bible writers wanted to say that the serpent was (cultural paganism) I am sure they would have used those words.

I bet you would be upset if someone started putting their own interpretive definitions after each of your words when quoting you in a post, eh? :smile:

Hi mr sparks,

Let me say that I see no violation of the rules concerning debate in asking for clarity and offering constructive criticism.

For sure, the idiosyncratic posts I offer have disturbed the traditional minded readers on tweb, that is certain.

You, at least, are Christian enough to accuse me directly and perhaps, before you judge, fully, that I am arrogant and self-assured, self-confident, as you said, that I have the right meanings in my understanding of the scriptures, you DO give me opportunity to defend what I do.

From your own posts, which I have often read, you appear to be reflective and rational.

I ask you, is the explicit and concise bracketing within the verses really all that different?

I mean, is it NOT implied, even in your own case, when you tell us that the abyss is a "holding cell:... that we will mentally "bracket: you synonyms?

Don't you too realize, that in our mind, we connect your idea directly with the usage of "abyss?"
Can't you visualize us mentally substituting your interpretation, as if in a bracket, in every verse where it appears?

Can't you, too, just see us reaching for the text, substituting your dea for this symbolism?

Don't you actually expect that this mental :bracketing: is taking place after your suggested meaning is offered to us?

I am certain you do not anticipate the same induendo you direct at me, regarding my arrogance to supply meanings. Is it that your separation from the text, the absence of brackets, is REALLY a significant difference?

CHECK YOUR INTERPRETATION BELOW AND SEE....does it really, really make you "think you have the "right" definition?"

Or, have you REALLY "... let the words stand as they are written?"

1The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss (the "holding cell"). 2When he opened the Abyss, (the "holding cell"), smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss, (the "holding cell") . 3And out of the smoke locusts, (demons), came down upon the earth and were given power (to torment the people of the beast during the tribulation) like that of scorpions of the earth.


See what I mean. Isn't your resentment really due an honest Christian re-evaluation?

I mean, "Mr Sparks, Mr Sparks why do ye persecute me?"

[nomad7674]

Or, have you REALLY "... let the words stand as they are written?"

Without further comment, I have to observe the irony of specifically having this discussion from the book of Revelation, in light of certain verses. :smile:

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

[Sparko]

To Kofh2u - I just wanted to know why you did what you did. I was not doing the same thing, nor was I persecuting you.

As a clarification. I offered the idea I had of the abyss seeming to be be a type of holding cell, since the verses speak of demons being chained there and released. Since the Lake of Fire is the final destination for the devil and the demons and the smoke of their torment will go up forever, it will be permanent. The abyss seems to be temporary.

The verses I quoted showed how the bible expressed the temporary nature of the abyss. I quoted them verbatum. If they supported my idea of the abyss as a "holding cell", then so be it. But if they did not, then I would want people to go with what the verses said and ignore me completely. I did not try to convince them by saying what each word meant to me inside the verse quote itself.

To offer up an explanation for a verse and then quoting the verse as a whole as showing why I think it is so, is not the same as bracketing your definitions after nearly every word directly in the verse quote. That does come off as a little odd or maybe arrogant. That is why I asked you about it. There were no hard feelings on my part. Just curiousity.

Back to the thread...

[Tzadi]

The abyss is a temporary holding area for the those who chose to truly work against God. Not in this world but in the one before. There is written of a war in heaven (could be apocraphy I'll have to look it up). It went something like this.

And 'lo the Lord God created first Lucifer who was the most beautiful and prized among all his creations. Lucifer was the morning star, the light bearer. His domain was that of the earth and to him it was given. However lucifer was vanity. He worked iniquities in his heart, and said to them "Am I not as great as he who created us. Come let us rise up and rule for if I am as powerful as Elohim then all of us together may rule for eternity." And with this a great war in heaven was begun, and Lucifer was cast down, along with all who had followed him, yea one third of the host of heaven was cast down to the earth that day, and thiers is the Abyss"

This passage and I can't find it in my NIV so it must be Apocryphal, but anyways it would seem to indicate that Lucifer and company were cast down to the earth and locked away in a real place called the Abyss. This is not hell, but does appear to be a place of binding.

The lake of fire however is something completely different. After the return of christ 1,000 years of peace and prosperity are to be upon the earth, according to some accounts there will be a minor resurrection and those who could not know right from wrong will have a 1,000 years to learn it. Anyways after 1,000 years the gate to the abyss will be unlocked by God. There will be a battle in the Valley of Magedo which has been bastardized to Armageddon. This will be the final confrontation of good versus evil. At which all evil will be cast into a lake of fire to burn for all eternity.

Hope that helps.

Please note I am not a member of any organized religion. There is no religion which supports my beliefs, however scripture does uphold it firmly and thats good enough for me.

[kofh2u]

The abyss is a temporary holding area for the those who chose to truly work against God. Not in this world but in the one before. There is written of a war in heaven (could be apocraphy I'll have to look it up). It went something like this.

And 'lo the Lord God created first Lucifer who was the most beautiful and prized among all his creations. Lucifer was the morning star, the light bearer. His domain was that of the earth and to him it was given. However lucifer was vanity. He worked iniquities in his heart, and said to them "Am I not as great as he who created us. Come let us rise up and rule for if I am as powerful as Elohim then all of us together may rule for eternity." And with this a great war in heaven was begun, and Lucifer was cast down, along with all who had followed him, yea one third of the host of heaven was cast down to the earth that day, and thiers is the Abyss"

This passage and I can't find it in my NIV so it must be Apocryphal, but anyways it would seem to indicate that Lucifer and company were cast down to the earth and locked away in a real place called the Abyss. This is not hell, but does appear to be a place of binding.

The lake of fire however is something completely different. After the return of christ 1,000 years of peace and prosperity are to be upon the earth, according to some accounts there will be a minor resurrection and those who could not know right from wrong will have a 1,000 years to learn it. Anyways after 1,000 years the gate to the abyss will be unlocked by God. There will be a battle in the Valley of Magedo which has been bastardized to Armageddon. This will be the final confrontation of good versus evil. At which all evil will be cast into a lake of fire to burn for all eternity.

Hope that helps.

Please note I am not a member of any organized religion. There is no religion which supports my beliefs, however scripture does uphold it firmly and thats good enough for me.


Your understanding of the symbolism is right on target.

What you said, of course, requires that we try to find the actual scripture, which as you say, does support the ideas.

I find that almost all writers, trying to explain the meaning they perceive, go to great lengths, write long defenses of their choices, and usually try at length to explain how scripture supports their guesses.

Often, by the time one fumble
through all they have to say, the simple clarity of a message like your own has been lost. And, often, if thoroughly checked out, what they tells us is less than comprehensive.

This was my response to sparks in his questuon about bracketing meanings and understandings directly within the actual context. When you read the entire Book of Revelation, written with these brackets following each and every mysterious perplexity,... well, you just sort of sense that at least there is continuity and completion to the entire interpretation.

Like what you said,....

Rev. 20:1 And I saw (mentally), as it were, an angel, (a psychic aspect to my thinking), come down from heaven (of thoughts in my mind), having the key (of social evolution) for the bottomless pit (of time) and a great chain (of social restraint) was in his hand.

Rev. 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, (the subtle cultural system of exploitive sexual mores), that old serpent, (cultural paganism), which is the Devil (of sexual license), and (libidinal lustfulness of) Satan, and bound him, the dragon, (throughout the) 1000 years (of the Dark Ages),

Rev. 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit (of time), and shut him up, (inhibiting the sexual freedom and adolescent license), and set the seal (of the Cross upon him), that he, (the dragon of that subcultural) should deceive the nations no more, till the (Dark Age of) one thousand years should be fulfilled: and after he, (the dragon of paganism), must be unchained, (the immorality reappearing) a little season (of @500 years).

The 14 symbolized ideas are ALL clearly identified in these verses. The reader need not reach for scripture, because t
ere it is... and, I might add, without a word added nor removed. The idea suggested for each element of symbolism reads in context with everyother element in the verse, and obviously, in context with the scripture, too.

Now, as you said, the 500 years end... the battle begins:

Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired (in 1624 AD), Satan, (the satanic libidinal culture of paganism), shall be loosed out of his prison (in a Renaissance),

Rev. 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations of (religious denominations) which are in the four quarters of the earth, (of the Western World), to gather them together to battle (in secular vs scriptural arguments): the number of (Christians) whom is as the sand of the sea, (two billion).


See how my Freudian Bible interprets clearly, concisely, and explicitly by these means? Whether you agree or not, that the interpretation is correct, you understand what is being said in this interpretive fashion... without the normal accompaniment of propaganda and over selling. It merely states directly what the darn meaning are in the author's opinion.

I can not see any indication of what sparks suggests is an arrogance in using this approach, unless he means that it violates an unstated norm of traditional presentation which insists upon vague and confusing by obscurum per obscurius, true?

[Sparko]

See how my Freudian Bible interprets (distorts the orginial meaning) clearly, concisely , and explicitly by these means (adding meaning to the original text that was not meant by the original authors)? Whether you agree or not (and you shouldn't), that the interpretation is correct (it is not), you understand (my scriptural gymnastics is really twisting) what is being said ( a load of :horsepucky: ) in this interpretive (dishohest) fashion... without the normal accompaniment of propaganda and over selling. It merely states (changes the text's meaning) directly (into saying) what the darn meaning(s) are (not really saying) in the author's opinion (which is wrong.)

I can not see (I am blindly not understanding) any indication of what sparks (who, I freely admit, is always right about everything) suggests is an arrogance in using this approach (that changes the meaning of the text into what I want it to say), unless he means that it violates an unstated norm of traditional (meaning: honest) presentation which insists upon vague (clear) and confusing (untouched quotes).

by obscurum per obscurius (a nonsense phrase that really means I am wrong in all respects to this argument), true? (I am adimitting I am wrong)

It's kinda like that example, above. Instead of quoting your statement and then responding to it by arguing for my understanding and interpretation externally, I am inserting my argument directly into your text, making you say something you did not mean to say, or might not have meant to say. It is not my right to blithely insert my meanings into your quotes. I might argue against what you said, but I should do that externally to your quotes.