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37818
01-25-2014, 08:42 PM
Just before Jesus prophesied His transfiguration, Jesus is cited to say,

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." -- Matthew 16:27.

"Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels." -- Mark 8:38.

"For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels." -- Luke 9:26.

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"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, . . . " -- Matthew 16:28; 17:1.

"And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. . . ." -- Mark 9:1, 2.

"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. . . . " -- Luke 9:27, 28.

Technical note here: "after six days" and "an about eight days after these sayings," refer to the same span of days. Luke counts of the day Jesus said some would not see death, in regards to Him appearing in His kingdom to of the day Jesus was transfigured about 8 days, "after six days" are the days in between.

JohnnyP
01-25-2014, 09:33 PM
I think this may be an Eschatology not a Language issue, but I don't think the Transfiguration fits the bill with some of these verses:


Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Although as you may know I believe in a future fulfillment at Judgment, I also believe in a partial fulfillment with Stephen, who we may presume was also rewarded for being a martyr, and in Revelation, Jesus is at the right hand of the Father at the Throne surrounded by angels.


Acts 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

37818
01-26-2014, 01:01 AM
I think this may be an Eschatology not a Language issue, but I don't think the Transfiguration fits the bill with some of these verses:
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Both those verses have to do with Eschatology. It was just after what Jesus said, as cited in Matthew 16:27, and parallel passages Mark 8:38 and Luke 9:26, what Jesus said next was about His transfiguration.




Although as you may know I believe in a future fulfillment at Judgment, I also believe in a partial fulfillment with Stephen, who we may presume was also rewarded for being a martyr, and in Revelation, Jesus is at the right hand of the Father at the Throne surrounded by angels.Perterist believe in a future fulfillment at judgement. Right now Jesus is at the right hand of power, the right hand of God. The point of this thread, is that prophecy that some standing before Jesus as Jesus so stated, would see Him in the kingdom. That was what was seen in the transfiguration. I see the blatant denial of this as obvious flaw in the Preterist hermeneutic. I honestly do not expect preterist here to see this flaw. I know this, if I came around to the preterist view point. I would still believe Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27 to be Jesus speaking of His transfiguration.

John Reece
01-26-2014, 01:44 PM
The point of this thread, is that prophecy that some standing before Jesus as Jesus so stated, would see Him in the kingdom. That was what was seen in the transfiguration. I see the blatant denial of this as obvious flaw in the Preterist hermeneutic.

Your concept of "the preterist hermeneutic" is not applicable to all preterists.

For instance, consider the interpretation provided by R. T. France in The Gospel of Matthew (NICNT: Eerdmans, 2007), pages 640-641, comment on Matthew 16:28, via Accordance):


28 This future authority of the Son of Man is now given a timescale. Some of those standing there as Jesus speaks will still be alive to see it. The solemn introductory formula “I tell you truly” (see on 5:18) and the emphatic wording “will by no means taste death” mark this out as a pronouncement to be noted. The wording seems unnecessarily heavy: “there are some of those standing here who will” seems a long-winded way of saying “some of you will,” and “will by no means taste death before they see” seems a complicated way of saying “will live to see,” or “will see before you die.” But it is the preceding words which have produced this solemn wording. Jesus has spoken in vv. 24–26 of martyrdom as a realistic prospect for those who follow him, but not all of them will “taste” that death before his kingship is revealed to them. Some of them may be martyred before that, but not all.

So how and when might some of them expect to see “the Son of Man coming in his kingship”? Perhaps the simplest answer is to link these words with the further allusion to Dan 7:14 in 28:18, where after the resurrection eleven of them (“some,” not all, following the death of Judas) will encounter Jesus now endowed with “all authority in heaven and on earth.” But that will be only the beginning of an extended period during which the newly established sovereignty of the Son of Man will be increasingly visible. The imminent “seeing” of v. 28 need not then be thought to exhaust the range of application of the fulfillment of Daniel’s vision. Verse 28 speaks of a more specific focus for the more general and timeless authority expressed in v. 27.12 See above on 10:23 for this range of application of the Daniel vision, and below on 26:64 on when Jesus’ judges in the Sanhedrin might be expected to “see” him as king and judge. So it is probably inappropriate to this saying to posit a specific time and place. The point is that while some of them are still alive it will have become clear to those with the eyes to see it that Jesus the Son of Man is enthroned as king.

But the immediate context here suggests another possibility which perhaps better suits the surprising phrase “some of those standing here.” Six days later (an unusually precise time-connection in Matthew, which suggests a deliberate linking of the two pericopes 16:24–28 and 17:1–8) just three (“some”) of those who heard Jesus’ words in 16:28 were to witness a “vision” (17:9) of Jesus in heavenly glory. This was a unique experience granted to those three alone; the rest of the Twelve would not see anything like that before they died. It may be questioned whether the vision on the mountain fully matches the promise of “seeing the Son of Man coming in his kingship,” as that kingship was yet to be established after his death and resurrection hence, no doubt, Jesus’ instruction in 17:9 to keep the vision secret until after the resurrection. But it is likely that Matthew (and Mark and Luke, who use the same awkward phrase about “some of those standing here” and equally closely link that saying with the following account of the Transfiguration) saw in this vision at least a proleptic fulfillment of Jesus’ solemn words in v. 28, even though the truth of Jesus’ kingship was to be more concretely embodied in later events following his resurrection.