First Resurrection

[Hitch]

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Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(KJV)
The purpose here is to show cause why the 'First Resurrection' is the regeneration(born-again) of the believer and not a Resurrection of the body.

The believer today meets all the requirements of the definition.

He is 'blessed and made holy'(II cor 5;21) because he is a partner in the Resurrection of Christ.This is how we become joint -heirs. Any one denying the Resurrrection of Christ is antichrist as unless He was raised bodily from the dead our faith is nothing.


Pete refers to the Church as;


1 Pet 2:5
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

John of course concurrs; (note the tense)

Rev 1:6
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
(KJV)

This 'priesthood' is entirely populated by those who 'overcome'. As Paul writes;


Rom 8:36-37
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
(KJV)


Conquerors and overcomers are translated from the same original word. Every christian is expected to be faithful even unto death, so being 'more than conquerors' is the status of all believers in Christ, whether events demonstrated this in life (martyerdom) or not. Every believer
is passed from death unto life. And is securely covered under the Blood of Christ. This renders him free from the power of the 'second death' and allows him to
reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Thus each requirement as liniated in v6 is already accomplished in the believer.


It is as important as it is common to refer to the born-again believer as being 'raised up,,formerly dead...


Eph 2:5-6
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
(KJV)
Eph 2:1
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
(KJV)

I Jn 3:14
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
(KJV)

The pattern here follows;
Num 19:11-12


11 He that toucheth the dead body of any man shall be unclean seven days.
12 He shall purify himself with it on the third day, and on the seventh day he shall be clean: but if he purify not himself the third day, then the seventh day he shall not be clean.
(KJV)


With our 'patnership' in the 'First Resurrection', which came on the Third day. we gain newness of life through the righteousness of Christ imputed judically. This is common to all believers and without it we cannot be seen as 'clean' on the seventh day (last day).

All must participate in the 'third day cleansing' or 'First Resurrection' . Every believer must have a part here. But not every believer will be raised bodily. By the same token every believer must be raised spiritually.

Of course Christ offered up His body as a Sacrfice and neeeded not be raised in the spiritual sense, as we do. So His Resurrection does not require the second step. Thus for the believer, the First Resurrection is first in order and importance.

Take care

Hitch

[John Reece]

:thumb:

[joelkaki]

Great stuff, Hitch. Masterfully presented. :thumb:



Joel

[Justme]

Hi Hitch,

My screen was sitting on one of your posts the day I said " I wonder what this IGNORE button does?" I have never figured out how to UNIGNORE it and this reply will be difficult and I may mess up some of your meanings or intents.

I don't agree with you on these matters, but I sure have no reason to IGNORE you.

Cut from your post:
The purpose here is to show cause why the 'First Resurrection' is the regeneration(born-again) of the believer and not a Resurrection of the body.
******************
Firstly, I'll say that I realize some people use the term 'born again' to refer to a religious experience in their lives explaining WHEN they became a believer or the moment they felt they were 'saved.'. I use the term ,from John, as the change from the natural life to the spiritual one. As in, you are born a natural being , you die and are 'born again' , a spiritual being.

So my purpose will be to show why I would consider the first resurrection(after Jesus) to be those who died prior to the cross.

Dan 12There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Here it tells us the resurrection of those who sleep in the dirt will occur in the time of the Great tribulation which also is the time of the parousia or the coming of the son of man. Prior to the cross there was no way for mortal man to qualify for eternal life because of inherant sin.

Further to this we see in Rev. 7:
15And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.

We also know these people were raised before Paul and the Thessalonians.

1 Thess 4
15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

So this tells us again that those who slept in the dirt will be raised before anyone from Paul on down. It also reaffirms that it it is at the time of the great tribulation event because of the mention of the coming in 1 Thess 4.

So I can't go along with you that the first resurrection has anything to do with your meaning of 'born again' from a biblical point of view.

Justme

[John Reece]

My screen was sitting on one of your posts the day I said " I wonder what this IGNORE button does?" I have never figured out how to UNIGNORE it and this reply will be difficult and I may mess up some of your meanings or intents.

Click on the "profile" button at the top of this page.

Then look at the menu on the right side of the profile page, at the bottom of the list under "-- Forum Options"

Click on "Edit Ignore List". Delete "Hitch" and click on "Update List"

HTH,

John

[Justme]

Thank you John

Justme

[John Reece]

You are very welcome, Justme.

Regarding your response to Hitch, you wrote:


So my purpose will be to show why I would consider the first resurrection (after Jesus) to be those who died prior to the cross.

Are you saying that those who died prior to the cross, and were resurrected after Jesus, are those who share in the first resurrection referred to in Revelation 20?

John.

[Hitch]

So I can't go along with you that the first resurrection has anything to do with your meaning of 'born again' from a biblical point of view

That must explain why you ignored the Scriptures listed.


take care

Hitch

[Justme]

Hi John,

Biblically speaking the first resurrection of Rev 20 were 'those beheaded' and 'those who died for their testimony of Jesus'. and 'those who died for the word of God'. This is shown because of the reference to the reign of 1000 years.

However, when you tie in the Daniel 12, verses and 1 Thess 4:15 it shows that all those who 'sleep in the dirt' precede those who are alive and remain at the coming.

Is 'prior to the cross' the correct term for the cutoff point, I don't know, there were other statements made such 'sittting at the right hand til the enemies.... etc so it doesn't say exactly.

Martha in John 11, obviously passed from her earthly life to a eternal life at some point.

At any rate I can't see any of this having a connection to the 'born again' situation as talked about here.

Justme

[Justme]

Hi Hitch,
.

That must explain why you ignored the Scriptures listed.

Actually I read them all and quoted others to show why we disagree.
Here's some more reasons.

In John 3 it is stated that no one can SEE the kingdom of God.

3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.

No one in the natural or earthly realm can ever SEE the Kingdom of God.

Luke 17

21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

It doesn't come with careful observation.

The kingdom of God is apparently interchangeable with the phrase Kingdom of Heaven. The kingdom is eternal and therefore not visible. So to SEE the kingdom of God one must be in the 'spiritual' realm.

The interchangeable phrases are shown here.

Matthew 11

11I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Luke uses:
I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

We know that eternal things can not be seen by:

2 Cor 4
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

So I see the 'born again' in John 3 as being the start of the spiritual life so one may SEE the kingdom of GOD.

Justme

[John Reece]

Today @ 06:21 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=81641#post81641)
Justme:

Hi John,

Biblically speaking the first resurrection of Rev 20 were 'those beheaded' and 'those who died for their testimony of Jesus'. and 'those who died for the word of God'. This is shown because of the reference to the reign of 1000 years.

However, when you tie in the Daniel 12, verses and 1 Thess 4:15 it shows that all those who 'sleep in the dirt' precede those who are alive and remain at the coming.

Is 'prior to the cross' the correct term for the cutoff point, I don't know, there were other statements made such 'sittting at the right hand til the enemies.... etc so it doesn't say exactly.

Martha in John 11, obviously passed from her earthly life to a eternal life at some point.

At any rate I can't see any of this having a connection to the 'born again' situation as talked about here.

Justme

The “first resurrection” in Revelation 20 is at the beginning of the millennial reign of Christ with those who come to life and reign with him.

Do you see those you regard as having a part in the first resurrection as currently reigning with Christ in the millennium referred to in Revelation 20?

John

[Justme]

Hi John,


Do you see those you regard as having a part in the first resurrection as currently reigning with Christ in the millennium referred to in Revelation 20?

Actually, no, but that's a whole nother story. What I am pointing out here is the problem of the meaning of 'born again' fitting the 'first resurrection as described in Rev 20.

Those first resurrected there have died
prior to Paul or those he was talking to. 1 Thess 4. Therefore the 'first resurrected' can not be someone who has a religious experience tommorow, as I see it.

Justme

[John Reece]

Today @ 03:01 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=81877#post81877)
Justme:

Hi John,

Actually, no, but that's a whole nother story. What I am pointing out here is the problem of the meaning of 'born again' fitting the 'first resurrection as described in Rev 20.

Those first resurrected there have died
prior to Paul or those he was talking to. 1 Thess 4. Therefore the 'first resurrected' can not be someone who has a religious experience tommorow, as I see it.

Justme

Justme,

I have been trying to understand what you have written, but it still eludes me.

:huh:

[Justme]

Hi John,


I have been trying to understand what you have written, but it still eludes me.

Go ahead with questions on it and I'll try clear it up.

Justme

[John Reece]

Today @ 01:10 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=82510#post82510)
Justme:

Hi John,

Go ahead with questions on it and I'll try clear it up.

Justme

:smile:

I've been trying to understand enough to ask a question. Age is having its effects on my brain :smile: .

Revelation 20 indicates that those who participate in the first resurrection reign with Christ from the time of the first resurrection.

As best I can understand what you have written above, you think the reign has not begun, but the first resurrection has occurred.

Have I misunderstood you?

Blessings,

John

[Justme]

Hi John,


As best I can understand what you have written above, you think the reign has not begun, but the first resurrection has occurred.

Okay, I see. Actually, yes, I see that 'first resurrection' has occurred and the 1000 years thing is probably over.

I consider the great tribulation to be over. Since I see it that way it follows that a lot of other stuff from the Book of Revelation would be over as well.

Because the coming of the son of man is immedieately after the tribulation it would follow that those that are referred to in Rev 20 would have been raised before those in 1 Thess 4:15. That is because Daniel 12:1-3 tells us the resurrection of those who sleep in the dirt will be in connection with the great tribulation.

I see the coming of the son of man as the establishment of the kingdom of Heaven or the final part of the establisment of the new covenant. I do not see the second coming of christ in judgement of mankind, from biblical time onward, as being a once only event.

I understand the second coming of Christ to occur after the personal death of each individual beginning with those who were alive at His parousia after the great tribulation.

Justme

[John Reece]

Justme,

Thanks for the explanation. I think I understand.

Blessings,

John

[Justme]

Hi John,

Thanks for getting back to me, you're a nice guy to talk to. I'd be interested in hearing how you believe these things take place.

Thank you,
Justme

[John Reece]

Today @ 02:52 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=82984#post82984)
Justme:

Hi John,

Thanks for getting back to me, you're a nice guy to talk to. I'd be interested in hearing how you believe these things take place.

Thank you,
Justme

Hi Justme,

My approach to Revelation has been to ascertain the meaning of the introduction (1:1-3) and the conclusion (22:10-21) and to interpret the symbolism in between accordingly.

I believe the first resurrection is from the death that has resulted from the disobedience of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. It is resurrection to the life in Christ described by Paul in Ephesians and Colossians.

Ephesians 1

Thanksgiving and Prayer

15 For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Ephesians 2

Made Alive in Christ

1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. (ESV)

That relates to:

Revelation 20

4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

As I understand it (which is what you asked me to tell), this text is symbolic and cosmic: It spans both Testaments (Old and New) as well as Heaven and Earth.

The reference to “those beheaded” may relate to the death of John the Baptizer (he wasn’t a Baptist :smile: ) as a symbol of Old Testament believers being included in the resurrection described by Paul in Ephesians.

Blessings,

John

[Justme]

Hi John,

You went to considerable trouble to do that for me and I thank you.

Justme

[John Reece]

Today @ 03:48 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=83736#post83736)
Justme:

Hi John,

You went to considerable trouble to do that for me and I thank you.

Justme

Hi Justme,

You do me a great favor by asking honest questions, which make me think and enable me to put into writing what I would not otherwise be able to do.

God's grace is really a part of the process, as are you.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and questions,

Blessings,

John

[Elect Lady]

Greetings All,

I am NEW to the Board, and very glad to be here!

My thoughts on the First Resurrection, is the same as Hitch.

[1] Spiritual Resurrection (new birth):

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, Hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation but is "Passed" from death to life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and "Now" is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they shall Live.


Compare: Ezk. 37:4 (the dry bones), 1 Pet.1:23 (Born again of incorruptible seed), Ro. 8:1 (No Condemnation to those in Christ) 6:4-10 (Buried with Christ in death, Raised to walk in newsness of life).


[2] Bodily Resurrection (from the grave):

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming in which ALL that are IN the Graves shall hear His voice,

29 And shall "come forth"; they that have done good, unto the Resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the Resurrection of damnation.

Compare: Dan.12:2 (some awake to everlasting life, and some to everlasting contempt), Rev.20:12-13 (the dead raised, and judged according to their works).

Notice, the dinstinction:

Spiritual (Vs.24) He that heareth My "Word" and believeth on Him that sent me hath everlasting life, No Condemnation, is passed "from" death to life.

Bodily (Vs. 28) All that are in the Graves, shall hear His "Voice"

Bodily (Vs. 29) Shall "come forth" to Resurrection of life, or Resurrection to damnation.

I believe, All born-again Christains, have part in the First Resurrection!

Blessings to all,

[Justme]

Hi lady elect,

There are quite a few on this board that will agree with you, I think. I'm not one of them, but that's irrelevent.

In John 5:25 are you considering that the 'dead' are those who do not accept Christ. Like they are physically alive, but spiritually nowhere because they do not accept Christ?

I think I understand the rest of your post, but not the 'now' and 'dead' part in John 5:25.

Justme

[Elect Lady]

Today @ 04:33 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=84797#post84797)
Justme:

Hi lady elect,

There are quite a few on this board that will agree with you, I think. I'm not one of them, but that's irrelevent.

In John 5:25 are you considering that the 'dead' are those who do not accept Christ. Like they are physically alive, but spiritually nowhere because they do not accept Christ?

I think I understand the rest of your post, but not the 'now' and 'dead' part in John 5:25.

Justme

---------------------------------------------------------

Greetings Justme,

Thank you, I hope I can clarify!

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming and Now is, when the dead shall hear "the Voice" of of the Son of God: and they shall Live.

Notice: The hour (Time) is coming, and "now is" (Come), when the dead shall hear "the Voice" of the Son of God, and Live (Remember, when Jesus, died and descended into hell):


1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might "bring us" to God, being put to death in the Flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By the which also He went and Preached unto the "spirits" in prison.

20 Which sometime were "disobedient," when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight "souls" were saved by water.

21 The "like" figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, But the answer of a good conscience toward God,) By the Resurrection of Jesus Christ:

22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto Him.


1 Peter 4:5 Who shall give account to Him that is ready to Judge the quick and the dead.

6 For this cause was the Gospel Preached also to them that are dead, that they might be Judged according to men in the Flesh, but LIVE according to men in the spirit.

I believe, When Christ descended into hell (Ps.16:10), He "Bound Satan" (Rev.20:1-3), set the captives free, which ascended into heaven with Him, when He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men (Eph. 4:8), and are now the Souls on thrones in heaven, with the Martyrs that "Lived and Reigned" with Christ a thousand years (Rev. 20:4)!


Blessings,