Without predestination, I'm lost

[Gavin]

I know enough about myself to know that being left to my own free-will is the last thing I need. Without God's sovereign and unconditional initiative grace in my life, I would be totally lost.

Thoughts?

[Arminian]

I know enough about myself to know that being left to my own free-will is the last thing I need.

I think we all know enough about you to agree!!:rofl:

[Woman]

Oh yeah Gav, Baby...without predestination you'd have to be locked up!


:teeth:

[Woman]

Oh yeah Gav, Baby...without predestination you'd have to be locked up!


:teeth:

[Solly]

Were you predestined to post that twice? Is that Double Predestination?

[seer]

I know enough about myself to know that being left to my own free-will is the last thing I need. Without God's sovereign and unconditional initiative grace in my life, I would be totally lost.

One can have eternal security without Calvinist Predestination.

[John Reece]

Today @ 08:49 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=81699#post81699)
Solly:

Were you predestined to post that twice? Is that Double Predestination?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Woman]

:rofl:

[Sozo]

Today @ 02:49 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=81699#post81699)
Solly:

Were you predestined to post that twice? Is that Double Predestination?

She was addressing his split personality.

[Gavin]

(And by the way, I would say the same of any other human being.)

[themuzicman]

Today @ 03:15 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=81690#post81690)
Gavin:

I know enough about myself to know that being left to my own free-will is the last thing I need. Without God's sovereign and unconditional initiative grace in my life, I would be totally lost.

Thoughts?

Then again, according to Calvinists, the majority of people in the earth today will never even have a chance to be saved.

You'd think if God did predestination as you define it, He'd at least make sure most people would be saved, since it is His desire that all of them will be.

Michael

[Sozo]

Today @ 11:34 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=82035#post82035)
themuzicman:



Then again, according to Calvinists, the majority of people in the earth today will never even have a chance to be saved.

You'd think if God did predestination as you define it, He'd at least make sure most people would be saved, since it is His desire that all of them will be.

Michael


According to some Calvinists, it must also be God's will that many people are striken with Schizoprenia that causes them to commit suicide. Which makes the whole predestined to hell thing alot easier for Him!

[Gavin]

According to some Calvinists, it must also be God's will that many people are striken with Schizoprenia that causes them to commit suicide. Which makes the whole predestined to hell thing alot easier for Him!

wow. :rofl: :shrug:

Then again, according to Calvinists, the majority of people in the earth today will never even have a chance to be saved.

I am not sure what you mean by that, but it sounds like another misrepresentation of Calvinism to me.

[themuzicman]

Well, if grace is limited and irresistable, and you only get saved through predesitnation, then we can look at the number of people worldwide who will not be saved and conclude, in Calvinism, that God doesn't want very many people getting saved.

Michael

[Gavin]

Musikman,

Well, if grace is limited and irresistable, and you only get saved through predesitnation, then we can look at the number of people worldwide who will not be saved and conclude, in Calvinism, that God doesn't want very many people getting saved.

Michael

That is just the kind of small-minded misrepresentation of Calvinism that I find so annoying. I wish that you would read what Calvinists had to say regarding God's salvific will before you made such hasty deductions. :argh:

[geebob]

apart from Arminian's observation that all who are saved are saved because God does not leave us alone to our free will (because God does not leave us alone), The idea essentially expressed here represents the selfishness of Calvinism, unless you're willing to take a universalists position or drop the calvinistic notion of predestination altogether.

The second greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself.

If you love your neighbor as yourself, then you should be able to identify their hopes and fears and especially needs as your own.

So the very same notion that causes you to breath a sigh of relief over the security of your own salvation should cause you to despair over your reprobate neighbor for whom calvinistic reprobation means hopelessness, if you are identifying his hopes, fears, and needs as your own.

And although you may not know which of your neighbors is damned, you can still be sure that among your neighbors, some are certainly damned.

This arguement has been more fully discussed here:

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=5188#post5188

[Gavin]

The point of this thread is, God must be the initiator of salvation. Given our sinful state (total depravity or natural inability), no one would ever chose God unless God regenerated his heart first. In other words, in TULIP, the T imples the U.

Thoughts?


2 God looks down from heaven
on the sons of men
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
3 Everyone has turned away,
they have together become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.

[Gavin]

geebob,

apart from Arminian's observation that all who are saved are saved because God does not leave us alone to our free will (because God does not leave us alone), The idea essentially expressed here represents the selfishness of Calvinism, unless you're willing to take a universalists position or drop the calvinistic notion of predestination altogether.

The second greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself.

If you love your neighbor as yourself, then you should be able to identify their hopes and fears and especially needs as your own.

So the very same notion that causes you to breath a sigh of relief over the security of your own salvation should cause you to despair over your reprobate neighbor for whom calvinistic reprobation means hopelessness, if you are identifying his hopes, fears, and needs as your own.

And although you may not know which of your neighbors is damned, you can still be sure that among your neighbors, some are certainly damned.

This arguement has been more fully discussed here:

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/sh...d=5188#post5188

Frankly, I am not sure what that has to do with this thread at all. Yes, under a Calvinist model we grieve for the unrepentant. So what?

[geebob]

I'm sorry, I was probably going a step further which I thought you were taking in the topic.

You present it as if though it is good because of your own confidence in your own salvation and that is what I was addressing. I'm saying that it is selfish for you to affirm this apsect for your own salvation as positive and view that as something that outweighs the tragedy of the reprobate, unless of course you can equally praise God for your own damnation.

Your topic certainly lends itself towards this direction and I don't consider it tangential, but I say you are within the bounds not to allow it to be taken that way so this is my last post on the issue barring that you want discuss your topic going down that rout.

Yes, under a Calvinist model we grieve for the unrepentant. So what?

aside from the further explanation above, for an even worse problem, follow my link in my last post. :brow:

[Gavin]

ah thanks geebob, and I would say that it is not selfish to confident of your own salvation, but I am not sure I am grasping your point still. If you thinks its on topic, feel free to elucidate if you want.

[joelkaki]

And predestination does not necessitate that a small number of people be saved. I believe, though at the moment I would not care to debate it, that God has predestined the great majority of the people through the centuries, to eternal life.

Joel

[themuzicman]

Yesterday @ 03:52 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=82231#post82231)
Gavin:

Musikman,



That is just the kind of small-minded misrepresentation of Calvinism that I find so annoying. I wish that you would read what Calvinists had to say regarding God's salvific will before you made such hasty deductions. :argh:

Yes, yes. All the ivory tower thought and contradictions accepted and making up this whole "two wills in God" thing, and all the philosophical hand wringing to say what I just said in a way that makes it sound more acceptable.

Michael

[geebob]

and all the philosophical hand wringing

there's nothing wrong with a little philosophical hand wringing.

[Will_C_Drotar]

Mind if I post my rough draft here?

I'm writing a systematic theology. In eight years I'll graduate from DTS, and then I'll have it published. But right now, I've got two chapters done.

And they're over my fav topic.

The five lovely points of TULIP.

[Gavin]

Hey Will,

feel free to post your chapters here, but please open a new thread to do it. Thanks!

Gavin

[themuzicman]

04-29-2003 @ 03:55 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=82234#post82234)
Gavin:

The point of this thread is, God must be the initiator of salvation. Given our sinful state (total depravity or natural inability), no one would ever chose God unless God regenerated his heart first. In other words, in TULIP, the T imples the U.

Thoughts?


2 God looks down from heaven
on the sons of men
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
3 Everyone has turned away,
they have together become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.

Personally, I don't have a problem with T or U. It's the L and I that are problems.

Neither T nor U are really points of contention, as far as I know.

Michael

[GrayPilgrim]

Some times T is skewed to refelct something which is often called Utter Depravity which means we are all as bad as possible but this misses the point completely, so I agree that LIP is generally where the contentionlies (although the TU were responses to the Remonstrants).

GP

[Arminian]

I'm writing a systematic theology. In eight years I'll graduate from DTS, and then I'll have it published.

:yipee:

[Gavin]

Perhaps I am confused, but I would think the U would also be a major point of contention, as Arminians would belief in conditional election based on foreknowledge . . . ?

[themuzicman]

Being more Open View, I would argue that Unconditional election is not only valid, but it is a major tenant of the Christian religion as a whole. If God decided that there were conditions on who He might offer salvation to, then the gospel would become a gospel of works or class and not grace.

I think the major problem with L and I is the divergence in the view of predestination, most specifically when someone becomes predestined.

Salvation is limited only to those who accept salvation, thus eliminating universalism, but the difference whether those who will be saved in the future is already limited or not.

Irresistable grace probably strikes closest to the split between the Calvinist and the Open View, in that, in the Calvinist view, when someone is elected, they are forced to accept it. There is no act of the free will to accept the election.

Michael

[mandolin]

yippee..the good old fashioned Calvinistic PRedestination/free will debate. I love this one.
First off...calvinists are correct in saying that without God we'd all be lost. But why would we be lost?? Well...according to calvinism (and i don't mean this in a derogatory kind of way) we would be lost because our God is a moron. You see... reprobation is an inevitable consecquence of this biblical bastardization. Let me try to explain before everyone starts getting all angry at me.

Inevitably according to calvinists, Adam and Eve had no free will...this means that the sinfulness of man is not because Mankind fell...but because mankind was pushed. Even if they didn't want to eat the fruit...God told them not to...and shoved it down their throats. Neat...what a loving and radical God.

So...now that man is sinful because we had no choice but to fall...now we are destined to hell because we CHOSE to fall??? hmm...this seems strange.

So... now god says he wants every man to be saved....he says it is his will that none should perish...so he picks random guys to follow him whether they want to or not...and casts the rest into hell for being sinful even if they wouldn't have chosen that sinfulness given free will...and even though God forced them to be sinful anyways.

Then for ALL ETERNITY...souls suffer eternal torment in Gehennah...and they had no choice in the matter.
Wow... isn't our God radical!! (sarcasm intended)

Now...granted... this is al based on common sense. I did not quote scripture...and I'm sorry. You can shove every Romans 9 passage down my throat that you want to but the truth still remains (and is radically clear in scripture) that God gives every man the right to choose his own destiny. The misrepresentaion of God as a reprobative pre-damning deity leaves no room for the most inevitable attribute of God: LOVE

Now... God does know what each man will choose from the beginning of time...and therefore, that which god knows IS destined to occur...but to confuse this with the heresy of Calvinistic Predestination is a twisted thinking.

Whoever believes in God shall not perish. WHOEVER!!
Am I right??

So go ahead and rant on my biblical innaccuracies... I'll get my scriptural exegeses on the misrepresented verses of the fore-ordination heresy...and my verses supporting my view as well (i am not an arminianist)

If you try to explain God using one verse or Chapter..you miss the whole point. God loves...and he loves enough to allow us to choose our own destiny.

[mandolin]

yay...i love my predamning reprobative God. He is so loving...
Wait... :huh:


The calvinistic bastardization of the predestination of God is very unbiblical. I will not go into biblical representation of the inaccurasy of Calvinistic ULI... I merely want you "theologians" to step back and realize the implications of the teachings of such a morbid deity.

Without further ado...

This is a crappy satire on the teaching of Calvinists:
(no offense is meant to anyone..we are still brothers and sisters in Christ...this is not meant to be a personal attack on anyone)

:love:
So Adam and Eve are walking through the garden, knowing not to eat of the fruit from the one tree...though the temptation was there...they themselves did not want to eat it. Then out comes God with fruit in his hand...and he shoves it down eve's throut. (granted...this is merely a satirical paraphrase of calvinistic theology) Then god...being full of wrath...condemns adam and eve out of the garden...because they ate the fruit that he forced them to eat.

(really..think about it...this is calvinism)

So... as time passes...Jesus comes to earth to save the lost sheep whom he himself fore-ordained to be scattered...blah blah blah...and those who reject christ are cast into hell and those who accept him are given eternal life. But this is not of their own choice. This is also fore-ordained. And my reprobative God...being "loving, just, and rightous"...casts a majority of his creation into ETERNAL TORMENT, for that which HE programmed.

You see...as his robots... God made them all for one purpose...HELL.

:thumb:
Wow... I love my calvinstic God. (sarcasm intended)

So mankind is sinful...not beacuse he "fell"...but because he was pushed. (let me try to explain this better)

So god (being loving, just and righteous) drives us to the top of this huge cliff...he pushes us off...and then tortures us ETERNALLY because we fell...without even the choice of saying sorry for being pushed.

:nc:
So...not only are we blamed for falling..though he pushed us...our mouths are duct taped so that we cannot even apologize for being pushed unless he rips off the tape... and everyone without duct taped is poked with a stick until they apologize for being shoved off of this huge friggin' cliff. (irresistable grace and unlimited atonement...he randomly chose all whom he would force to say sorry...and for the rest...well one word...Gehenna)
:poke:

God then takes a all the people with the duct tape on their mouths, and he tortures them eternally for being so stupid...and he takes all those who had no choice but to accept him and gives them eternal life with him. Note the justice portrayed by our mighty God... note the love... and note the incredible righteousness ;)

(keep in mind...this is all satire meant to show the ridiculous nature of calivinism)

So... let's ignore the fact that God wants ALL men to be saved... let's ignore the fact that mankind FELL in the garden, and he was not pushed... let's ignore the fact that God is Loving...just...righteous...in fact, let's ignore everything the bible teaches...and let's misinterpret a few verses and follow the great doctrine of TULIP.

:whack:
God made us fall....our fault....god made sinners remain sinful...their fault...God punishes the wicked whom he programmed for wickedness...and ETERNAL TORMENT awaits them all... What a loving god is shown in the heresy known as calvinism.

According to calvinism...God is a schizophrenic version of Bill Gates...he programmed a majority of everyone to be robots of wickedness...and he cast them into ETERNAL DAMNATION for being precisely what he MADE them be.

I might as well stop now...being that I probably already have a hundred calvinists forming "biblical rebuttals" of my "unbiblical heresy"... so I'll soon post my biblical exegeses of all the "calivist passages" and my lists of the actual God spoken of in the bible.

The above was not meant as a personal attack on anyone. You may think I sound ignorant...but I'm merely trying to evince the ridiculous nature of calvinistic predestination..before i go into the biblical innacuracies of it.

Rock on... and God bless
:rockon:

[seer]

The point of this thread is, God must be the initiator of salvation. Given our sinful state (total depravity or natural inability), no one would ever chose God unless God regenerated his heart first.

I agree and disagree Gavin. There must be a work of God before a man can repent and believe. Though I do not believe that we need to call that work regeneration in the full sense. After all regeneration which means renewl/restoration is a life long process. But I do believe that all our ability to repent,believe, or do good comes from God: "all good gifts come down from above."

Our disagreement would be in the I of TULIP. Is God's grace irresistable. I think scripture says yes....

[seer]

Now mandolin, tell us what you really think! :poke:

[Gavin]

Our schizophrenic reprobative God
(post#32 )


yay...i love my predamning reprobative God. He is so loving...
Wait...


The calvinistic bastardization of the predestination of God is very unbiblical. I will not go into biblical representation of the inaccurasy of Calvinistic ULI... I merely want you "theologians" to step back and realize the implications of the teachings of such a morbid deity.

Without further ado...

This is a crappy satire on the teaching of Calvinists:
(no offense is meant to anyone..we are still brothers and sisters in Christ...this is not meant to be a personal attack on anyone)


So Adam and Eve are walking through the garden, knowing not to eat of the fruit from the one tree...though the temptation was there...they themselves did not want to eat it. Then out comes God with fruit in his hand...and he shoves it down eve's throut. (granted...this is merely a satirical paraphrase of calvinistic theology) Then god...being full of wrath...condemns adam and eve out of the garden...because they ate the fruit that he forced them to eat.

(really..think about it...this is calvinism)

So... as time passes...Jesus comes to earth to save the lost sheep whom he himself fore-ordained to be scattered...blah blah blah...and those who reject christ are cast into hell and those who accept him are given eternal life. But this is not of their own choice. This is also fore-ordained. And my reprobative God...being "loving, just, and rightous"...casts a majority of his creation into ETERNAL TORMENT, for that which HE programmed.

You see...as his robots... God made them all for one purpose...HELL.


Wow... I love my calvinstic God. (sarcasm intended)

So mankind is sinful...not beacuse he "fell"...but because he was pushed. (let me try to explain this better)

So god (being loving, just and righteous) drives us to the top of this huge cliff...he pushes us off...and then tortures us ETERNALLY because we fell...without even the choice of saying sorry for being pushed.

So...not only are we blamed for falling..though he pushed us...our mouths are duct taped so that we cannot even apologize for being pushed unless he rips off the tape... and everyone without duct taped is poked with a stick until they apologize for being shoved off of this huge friggin' cliff. (irresistable grace and unlimited atonement...he randomly chose all whom he would force to say sorry...and for the rest...well one word...Gehenna)


God then takes a all the people with the duct tape on their mouths, and he tortures them eternally for being so stupid...and he takes all those who had no choice but to accept him and gives them eternal life with him. Note the justice portrayed by our mighty God... note the love... and note the incredible righteousness ;)

(keep in mind...this is all satire meant to show the ridiculous nature of calivinism)

So... let's ignore the fact that God wants ALL men to be saved... let's ignore the fact that mankind FELL in the garden, and he was not pushed... let's ignore the fact that God is Loving...just...righteous...in fact, let's ignore everything the bible teaches...and let's misinterpret a few verses and follow the great doctrine of TULIP.


God made us fall....our fault....god made sinners remain sinful...their fault...God punishes the wicked whom he programmed for wickedness...and ETERNAL TORMENT awaits them all... What a loving god is shown in the heresy known as calvinism.

According to calvinism...God is a schizophrenic version of Bill Gates...he programmed a majority of everyone to be robots of wickedness...and he cast them into ETERNAL DAMNATION for being precisely what he MADE them be.

I might as well stop now...being that I probably already have a hundred calvinists forming "biblical rebuttals" of my "unbiblical heresy"... so I'll soon post my biblical exegeses of all the "calivist passages" and my lists of the actual God spoken of in the bible.

Rock on... and God bless



So wait, Mandolin, are you saying that Calvinism is bad or not? Stop beating around the bush (sarcasm intended)!

:rofl:

By the way, go learn about Calvinism before you attack it next time. Its obvious you don't really care or know what most Calvinists believe.

Sincerely,
Gavin

[mandolin]

well... i have greatly studied both arminianism and calvinism. Both are quite lame.

One preahes reprobation...this is a sick portrayal of God...the other teaches of a god who isn't involved in the salvation of man.

Both of these ore absurd.

The bible says god wills for all men to be saved. The implications of such a statement are this: GOD WANTS ALL TO BE SAVED :teeth:

make sense?

so god also called those who are saved ...
wait does it say he called only those who are saved?? or did he merely call those who are saved??
You follow??
my thinking is simple... God wills for all to be saved... in fact... he calls all to be saved. To be saved we have to accept that calling. To say it is without the existance of free will is unbiblical...to say salvation is without the help from god is unbiblical.

any rebuttals to that??

because the biblical god is no god of reprobation...and he's no god of pascifism to the salvation his creation either...therefore... Calvin and Arminius...both wrong.

As i said before...I don't mean these as personal attacks, so I'd also appreciate if you'd tone down your judgement of my satirical views.

The best way to teach is through satire... to say that god is fore-ordaining is absurd...read my previous post about the stick-poking :lol:

:read:
so read you bible..and then tell me God is a god of the calvinistic reprobation inevitably taught through TULIP.

[Gavin]

Mandolin,

I have reached Calvinism because it is inescapable from the Scriptures. My claim regarding your post is that you don't really understand what the majority of Calvinists believe, and as a result you repeatedly say that Calvinism is something than Calvinists assert. If you want examples, you needn't go farther than the first four words of the post I quoted.

I suggest you learn more about a theological position before you speak so harshly against it.

Blessings,
Gavin

[mandolin]

for the sake of time-saving...let's just assume I'm arminianist for now. Though I am neither calvinist nor arminianist...I most cloely agree with the teachings of Arminius.

My reasoning is quite simple:

Reprobation...biblical??? i think not.
so......
5 point Calvinism...biblical??? i think not.

5 point calvinism being the doctrine of reprobation...and reprobation being unbiblical...it is safe to assume that 5 point calvinism is unbiblical.

[mandolin]

again... as stated earlier... i am not speaking out against calvinists.

Also... I'm really not speaking against calvinism.

I'm speaking of the inevitable consequences OF calvinism that are not taught BY calvinism.

Make sense?

sure... if you ignore the fact that millions are burning in hell based on the fore-ordination of God...than calvinism makes total sense.

But Hell sucks....right??

and calvinism ends at a single truth as I tried to portray in my previous post about the stick poking...god is a jerk.

I mean nothing offensive by this...but the calvinistic god is a sphincter. :smile:

[seer]

Well Gavin,

mandolin said:

"According to calvinism...God is a schizophrenic version of Bill Gates...he programmed a majority of everyone to be robots of wickedness...and he cast them into ETERNAL DAMNATION for being precisely what he MADE them be."

That is pretty much what Calvin taught in Inst.3:21:5, and The Eternal Presdestination of God 8:5.

[mandolin]

But in rooms like these, i guess a person is clearly wrong unless they agree with some great theologian...so I have to agree with the statement:

"God chose me... the devil chose me... my choice is the tie-breaker." D.L. Moody