How to resist the devil? Can we resist the devil? I need some help please!!!

[Jude3b]

CAN YOU ALL HELP ME - IN A VERY CONFUSING DEBATE THAT I AM HAVING UNDER ANOTHERR FORUM WITH TWO-HUMBLE?
I have never had a debate with someone who claims to be a true Christian and is adamant that we must sin each and every day. Has anyone else ever debated someone who held to such a belief?
I have been having a debate over on the ecclesiology forum with Two-Humble - under the thread - "Is Roman Catholicism a false cult" and we are obviously off topic there. We have been discussing sin and sinning Christians. Two-Humble seems to take the position in his posts there that we all will or must sin - each and every day. I have been preaching there about living right for Christ and by His grace slowing down and stopping the practice of daily sin. Two Humble tells me that I am legalistic and preaching a false gospel.
I would like to ask those who are interested to look and read some of the posts over there on the ecclesiology forum on the thread I mentioned above and either contribute there or here on these subjects:
1) Do we, if we are true believers in Christ have to practice daily sin? Is Two-Humble teaching a biblical doctrine - that a true Christian will continue to go on sinning every day - all their life?
2) Can we resist the devil? Can we cut out sinning, or slow down on it?
3) Do supernatural forces - Satan and Demons cause us problems today?
4) What if any is God's way of deliverance and victory over sin and our enemy Satan?
5) and Lastly, is it "legalistic" for a Christian to preach against sinning every day? Is it a false Gospel to preach that a Christian shouldn't be sinning every day - as Two Humble contends?

Thank you for your help and prayers on these important subjects, Jude 3b

[Alberta girl]

CAN YOU ALL HELP ME - IN A VERY CONFUSING DEBATE THAT I AM HAVING UNDER ANOTHERR FORUM WITH TWO-HUMBLE?
I have never had a debate with someone who claims to be a true Christian and is adamant that we must sin each and every day. Has anyone else ever debated someone who held to such a belief?
I have been having a debate over on the ecclesiology forum with Two-Humble - under the thread - "Is Roman Catholicism a false cult" and we are obviously off topic there. We have been discussing sin and sinning Christians. Two-Humble seems to take the position in his posts there that we all will or must sin - each and every day. I have been preaching there about living right for Christ and by His grace slowing down and stopping the practice of daily sin. Two Humble tells me that I am legalistic and preaching a false gospel.
I would like to ask those who are interested to look and read some of the posts over there on the ecclesiology forum on the thread I mentioned above and either contribute there or here on these subjects:
1) Do we, if we are true believers in Christ have to practice daily sin? Is Two-Humble teaching a biblical doctrine - that a true Christian will continue to go on sinning every day - all their life?
2) Can we resist the devil? Can we cut out sinning, or slow down on it?
3) Do supernatural forces - Satan and Demons cause us problems today?
4) What if any is God's way of deliverance and victory over sin and our enemy Satan?
5) and Lastly, is it "legalistic" for a Christian to preach against sinning every day? Is it a false Gospel to preach that a Christian shouldn't be sinning every day - as Two Humble contends?

Thank you for your help and prayers on these important subjects, Jude 3b
1) I don't have to practice daily sin. It just comes naturaly to me. I could go through a whole day living it for God with prayer and supplication, seeking His will for my life and still find out that I missed an opportunity or entertained a selfish motive. Let's face it, in God's world, that is sin. But if I'm saved, and the Lord is doing a good work in me, I should sin less and less...but I will never be sinless.
2) We are told to resist the devil...and he will flee from you. Why would we be told to do something that is not possible to do? Do you want to resist the devil? Start praising God and speaking of His Glory and goodness and miracles and love; start speaking of the ressurection. Start speaking scripure over you problems and watch the devil run.
3)The devil is still prowling around, seeking whom he may destroy, whispering deception in our ears. That is why we are to put on the helmet of salvation, the belt, the shield etc.
4)The safest place on eath is under the wing of the most high God. He is our sactuary. My old pastor told me to 'stay in the car wash with Jesus and let Him keep you clean'. When Jesus desendended into hell, it wasn't to make a house call, it was to bring back the keys of hell and death. Satan's back is broken. God always has a way, the question is, are we in submission to it?
4)Is it legalistic to keep a priest in business? I mean, if people suddenly stopped sinning, what would the preists do with all their time? I know I get awfuly tired going to Christ with the same old sin, day after day after day. Eventually I get so tired of it I just ask Him to change my heart instead and give me a spiritual victory over that sin. I havn't had to lie and steal and get drunk nearly as often as I used to. But I'm only joking of course, thanks to the act of grace Jesus has manifested in my life, I havn't had to drink at all.
Thank you for letting me share.

[Jude3b]

1) I don't have to practice daily sin. It just comes naturaly to me. I could go through a whole day living it for God with prayer and supplication, seeking His will for my life and still find out that I missed an opportunity or entertained a selfish motive. Let's face it, in God's world, that is sin. But if I'm saved, and the Lord is doing a good work in me, I should sin less and less...but I will never be sinless.
2) We are told to resist the devil...and he will flee from you. Why would we be told to do something that is not possible to do? Do you want to resist the devil? Start praising God and speaking of His Glory and goodness and miracles and love; start speaking of the ressurection. Start speaking scripure over you problems and watch the devil run.
3)The devil is still prowling around, seeking whom he may destroy, whispering deception in our ears. That is why we are to put on the helmet of salvation, the belt, the shield etc.
4)The safest place on eath is under the wing of the most high God. He is our sactuary. My old pastor told me to 'stay in the car wash with Jesus and let Him keep you clean'. When Jesus desendended into hell, it wasn't to make a house call, it was to bring back the keys of hell and death. Satan's back is broken. God always has a way, the question is, are we in submission to it?
4)Is it legalistic to keep a priest in business? I mean, if people suddenly stopped sinning, what would the preists do with all their time? I know I get awfuly tired going to Christ with the same old sin, day after day after day. Eventually I get so tired of it I just ask Him to change my heart instead and give me a spiritual victory over that sin. I havn't had to lie and steal and get drunk nearly as often as I used to. But I'm only joking of course, thanks to the act of grace Jesus has manifested in my life, I havn't had to drink at all.
Thank you for letting me share.

Dear Alberta Girl:

Thank you for sharing. Are in in Alberta, Canada? If yes, whats it like there and would you suggest someone take a vacation there? What is there to do there?

Question about you point one. If you have the time and are willing, can you give me a Bible based definition of sin - with the verses it is based on?

I love and fully agree with your point #'s 2 and 3 and especially thanks for sharing that advice from a former Pator about "staying in the car wash with Jesus and let him keep us clean" - That is good!

If you get a chance - please contribute on the eccesiology forum under the thread - Is Roman Catholicism a false cult. The debate is going on with two-humble there on the current off topic issue of sinning every day.

Praise God for His love and grace.

[GoBahnsen]

CAN YOU ALL HELP ME - IN A VERY CONFUSING DEBATE THAT I AM HAVING UNDER ANOTHERR FORUM WITH TWO-HUMBLE?
I have never had a debate with someone who claims to be a true Christian and is adamant that we must sin each and every day. Has anyone else ever debated someone who held to such a belief?
Jude, you're going to have to agree on a definition of sin with your opponent, for starters.

I have been having a debate over on the ecclesiology forum with Two-Humble - under the thread - "Is Roman Catholicism a false cult" and we are obviously off topic there. We have been discussing sin and sinning Christians. Two-Humble seems to take the position in his posts there that we all will or must sin - each and every day. I haven't taken the time to check in on your other debate with 2humble, but if he/she is saying that we all fall short of God's glory each day, I agree. If he/she is saying that we must openly rebell against God each day, then no way. God is in the business of freeing us from bondage to sin. On the other hand, the closer we come to God the more we realize how sinful we really are.

So sanctification can almost have a backwards feel to it, even though you're really moving forward (if indeed you are).



I have been preaching there about living right for Christ and by His grace slowing down and stopping the practice of daily sin. Two Humble tells me that I am legalistic and preaching a false gospel.
I don't have the facts. You could be getting into a Pelagian form of perfectionism. I don't know. I really think we need to learn to see ourselves "in Christ" not having a righteousness of our own, which is by the law. Yet when we see that more and more, we by no means relax our efforts to obey God. We just realize that our obedience is the outflow of our thankfulness.



I would like to ask those who are interested to look and read some of the posts over there on the ecclesiology forum on the thread I mentioned above and either contribute there or here on these subjects:
1) Do we, if we are true believers in Christ have to practice daily sin? Is Two-Humble teaching a biblical doctrine - that a true Christian will continue to go on sinning every day - all their life?
We don't practice sin as believers, we simply fail to be all we ought to be.


2) Can we resist the devil? Can we cut out sinning, or slow down on it?
Yes, believers can resist the Devil. We can move away from sin in the power of the Holy Spirit, yet we always find ourselves less than perfect, which is what god requires.


3) Do supernatural forces - Satan and Demons cause us problems today?
Yes, we wrestle not against flesh and blood...


4) What if any is God's way of deliverance and victory over sin and our enemy Satan?
The various means of grace. Study your Bible. Pray. Gather with other believers. Pray some more. Tell God that you really just want to live for Him. Confess your sin. Ask for grace to overcome. BUT...always glory in Christ's accomplishment for sin, not your own. Revel in Christ, not your own performance Jude.



5) and Lastly, is it "legalistic" for a Christian to preach against sinning every day? Is it a false Gospel to preach that a Christian shouldn't be sinning every day - as Two Humble contends?

Thank you for your help and prayers on these important subjects, Jude 3bIt can be legalistic, if you lose sight of Christ's obedience for His people. Christ did obey for us you know. Many perfectionist groups refuse that truth. I rather glory in it, and it makes me more pious, though at the same time, I am never impressed with me, but rather Jesus.
It's all about Jesus. Being complete in Him. Resting in Him. Overcoming sin is the fruit of that knowledge. The goal is not to stop sinning, but to look unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith. As we do, we move away from sin quite naturally.

[Jude3b]

Jude, you're going to have to agree on a definition of sin with your opponent, for starters.

I haven't taken the time to check in on your other debate with 2humble, but if he/she is saying that we all fall short of God's glory each day, I agree. If he/she is saying that we must openly rebell against God each day, then no way. God is in the business of freeing us from bondage to sin. On the other hand, the closer we come to God the more we realize how sinful we really are.

So sanctification can almost have a backwards feel to it, even though you're really moving forward (if indeed you are).


I don't have the facts. You could be getting into a Pelagian form of perfectionism. I don't know. I really think we need to learn to see ourselves "in Christ" not having a righteousness of our own, which is by the law. Yet when we see that more and more, we by no means relax our efforts to obey God. We just realize that our obedience is the outflow of our thankfulness.


We don't practice sin as believers, we simply fail to be all we ought to be.

Yes, believers can resist the Devil. We can move away from sin in the power of the Holy Spirit, yet we always find ourselves less than perfect, which is what god requires.

Yes, we wrestle not against flesh and blood...

The various means of grace. Study your Bible. Pray. Gather with other believers. Pray some more. Tell God that you really just want to live for Him. Confess your sin. Ask for grace to overcome. BUT...always glory in Christ's accomplishment for sin, not your own. Revel in Christ, not your own performance Jude.


It can be legalistic, if you lose sight of Christ's obedience for His people. Christ did obey for us you know. Many perfectionist groups refuse that truth. I rather glory in it, and it makes me more pious, though at the same time, I am never impressed with me, but rather Jesus.
It's all about Jesus. Being complete in Him. Resting in Him. Overcoming sin is the fruit of that knowledge. The goal is not to stop sinning, but to look unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith. As we do, we move away from sin quite naturally.

Dear GoBahnsen:

You have articulated your points very well and I agree 100% with what you have stated. These are the same things that I have been sharing with two-humble over on the ecclesiology forum under the thread is Roman Catholicism a false cult.

I especially agree with your last point. "It's all about Jesus. Being complete in Him. Resting in Him. Overcoming sis is the fruit of that knowledge." Amen! It's like the old Imperials song said, "LET JESUS DO IT FOR YOU!"

[GoBahnsen]

Dear GoBahnsen:

You have articulated your points very well and I agree 100% with what you have stated. These are the same things that I have been sharing with two-humble over on the ecclesiology forum under the thread is Roman Catholicism a false cult.

I especially agree with your last point. "It's all about Jesus. Being complete in Him. Resting in Him. Overcoming sis is the fruit of that knowledge." Amen! It's like the old Imperials song said, "LET JESUS DO IT FOR YOU!"I'm glad that you found my remarks helpful and that you could amen them. So how goes the current battle with 2humble?

[Jude3b]

I'm glad that you found my remarks helpful and that you could amen them. So how goes the current battle with 2humble?

Status quo, just like I stated in this thread.

[GoBahnsen]

Status quo, just like I stated in this thread.Give me his Theological position. Where is he coming from? Did you say he is Roman Cath. ? If so that would explain his compatibility with Pelagian perfectionism. They love all the proof texts that seem to be saying that Christians don't sin anymore or can avoid sin altogether. They think Paul was speaking of someone else in Rom 7. And they shy away from the believer's position in Christ. Hang in there.

[Alberta girl]

Dear Alberta Girl:

Thank you for sharing. Are in in Alberta, Canada? If yes, whats it like there and would you suggest someone take a vacation there? What is there to do there?

Question about you point one. If you have the time and are willing, can you give me a Bible based definition of sin - with the verses it is based on?

I love and fully agree with your point #'s 2 and 3 and especially thanks for sharing that advice from a former Pator about "staying in the car wash with Jesus and let him keep us clean" - That is good!

If you get a chance - please contribute on the eccesiology forum under the thread - Is Roman Catholicism a false cult. The debate is going on with two-humble there on the current off topic issue of sinning every day.

Praise God for His love and grace.Hi JudeB3;
One thing about Canada is that it is a large country with many types of land, from mountains to prairie to rolling countryside to artic wastes. If you visited Alberta you could choose from prairie to mountains to bushland to artic. Many people like Canada because our population is scarse in comparison to the United states in relation to our land mass and most of our poulation is concentrated to within about 200 miles of our border with the states. For that reason many people consider our country to be 'pristine', or vey natural.
One dubious claim to fame that we have in Alberta is the worlds largest mall in Edmonton called the West Edmonton Mall. We also have the Calgary Stampede which is a western show feauring western horsemanship such as bronc riding and steer wrestling. We also have lovely ski resorts such as Banff and Jasper, and a glacier that you can visit and walk out on. We have a large dinosaur museum in Drumheller. I don't know where you live but we have a prairie region that spans a two day drive in either direction, north south or east west, with the biggset sky you will ever see on land, and fabulous sun rises and sunsets. What is it like where you live.

As for scripture references, I don't realy have a particular one, but I think I can see it in the sermon on the mount when Jesus talks about the law and goes on to say that we can even sin in our hearts with our imaginations. But I like the part when God tells Able to do his best or sin lies at the door.

[Jude3b]

Hi JudeB3;
One thing about Canada is that it is a large country with many types of land, from mountains to prairie to rolling countryside to artic wastes. If you visited Alberta you could choose from prairie to mountains to bushland to artic. Many people like Canada because our population is scarse in comparison to the United states in relation to our land mass and most of our poulation is concentrated to within about 200 miles of our border with the states. For that reason many people consider our country to be 'pristine', or vey natural.
One dubious claim to fame that we have in Alberta is the worlds largest mall in Edmonton called the West Edmonton Mall. We also have the Calgary Stampede which is a western show feauring western horsemanship such as bronc riding and steer wrestling. We also have lovely ski resorts such as Banff and Jasper, and a glacier that you can visit and walk out on. We have a large dinosaur museum in Drumheller. I don't know where you live but we have a prairie region that spans a two day drive in either direction, north south or east west, with the biggset sky you will ever see on land, and fabulous sun rises and sunsets. What is it like where you live.

As for scripture references, I don't realy have a particular one, but I think I can see it in the sermon on the mount when Jesus talks about the law and goes on to say that we can even sin in our hearts with our imaginations. But I like the part when God tells Able to do his best or sin lies at the door.

Dear Alberta Girl:


Thank you for the information on Alberta. Sounds like a good place for me to visit in the summertime. I'm not into snow skiing. I live in Las Vegas, Nevada, USA. It's a wild and crazy place. Most people know it as sin city. It is! But, it also has a solid group of Christians and some very good solid churches. We are a minority here, like everywhere else - but the neat thing about the Christians in Nevada - they are not ashamed to be known as a Christian.

I agree that Jesus taught that we even sin in our hearts with our imaginations. Such as His teaching on Adultery and lust. Do you like this definition of sin? - "Sin is a wilful transgression of a known law of God"

[Alberta girl]

Dear Alberta Girl:


Thank you for the information on Alberta. Sounds like a good place for me to visit in the summertime. I'm not into snow skiing. I live in Las Vegas, Nevada, USA. It's a wild and crazy place. Most people know it as sin city. It is! But, it also has a solid group of Christians and some very good solid churches. We are a minority here, like everywhere else - but the neat thing about the Christians in Nevada - they are not ashamed to be known as a Christian.

I agree that Jesus taught that we even sin in our hearts with our imaginations. Such as His teaching on Adultery and lust. Do you like this definition of sin? - "Sin is a wilful transgression of a known law of God"
Hi JudeB3:

I would agree with that definition if "a known law" included something placed upon a persons heart by God and only for the one person. For example: I was once listening to a teaching tape. The woman teaching was very knowledgeable about scripture and she shared in part of her story that the Lord spoke to her when she was young in the Lord and told her not to read anymore fiction. Not even Christian fiction. So she was obedient to that word placed in her heart and was left with nothing but non fiction such as scripture and history. Well because of her devotion to that she became very knowledgable and was able to share many pearls of wisdom. But had she disobeyed the Lord and continued to read fiction, she would have never disiplined herself enough to study the word of God to the degree that she did. Now does the Lord tell everyone not to read fiction? Is it written somewhere? No it is not a recognizable law. But for her, it was a recognizable law that the Lord hed given to her. What if one were to describe sin as a rebellion against the will of God for our life? Jonah was told to go to the (can't remember their names) and warn them. He chose to run away instead. That was God's will for Jonahs life but not for anyone elses. Where in the thread did 2 humble make that comment about sinning? I tried to find it but it is a long thread and I seem to have missed it. Can you give me the post number?

[rhutchin]

CAN YOU ALL HELP ME - IN A VERY CONFUSING DEBATE THAT I AM HAVING UNDER ANOTHERR FORUM WITH TWO-HUMBLE?
I have never had a debate with someone who claims to be a true Christian and is adamant that we must sin each and every day. Has anyone else ever debated someone who held to such a belief?
I have been having a debate over on the ecclesiology forum with Two-Humble - under the thread - "Is Roman Catholicism a false cult" and we are obviously off topic there. We have been discussing sin and sinning Christians. Two-Humble seems to take the position in his posts there that we all will or must sin - each and every day. I have been preaching there about living right for Christ and by His grace slowing down and stopping the practice of daily sin. Two Humble tells me that I am legalistic and preaching a false gospel.
I would like to ask those who are interested to look and read some of the posts over there on the ecclesiology forum on the thread I mentioned above and either contribute there or here on these subjects:
1) Do we, if we are true believers in Christ have to practice daily sin? Is Two-Humble teaching a biblical doctrine - that a true Christian will continue to go on sinning every day - all their life?
2) Can we resist the devil? Can we cut out sinning, or slow down on it?
3) Do supernatural forces - Satan and Demons cause us problems today?
4) What if any is God's way of deliverance and victory over sin and our enemy Satan?
5) and Lastly, is it "legalistic" for a Christian to preach against sinning every day? Is it a false Gospel to preach that a Christian shouldn't be sinning every day - as Two Humble contends?

Thank you for your help and prayers on these important subjects, Jude 3b

Sin is basically doing that which is against God's will. To liken it to the law is a good start, but Christ in Matt 5 says that the law says not to murder, but that one breaks that law if he is angry with his brother.

Consequently, if one is to be perfect and not sin, he must not only know the law but all the nuances of that law. Jesus effectively did away with the law and replaced it with a new law - Love one another. Paul describes love in 1 Corinthians 13 and I suspect that if anyone could ever grasp these things, he would be in a position not to sin.

However, we also know that Satan tempts us. As he did with Christ in the wilderness, he throws Scriptures at us to confuse us. Many of the temptations we face come from our ignorance of, or confusion about, what the Scriptures say. The whole issue of divorce is a good example. God hates it but some preachers say Christians can do it.

I would say that the ideal is to preach that Christians should not sin. To reach that ideal requires a committment that is difficult, if not impossible, to attain. We are, after all, still human. Nonetheless, we are commanded, Be holy even as God is holy. Our desire and expectation should be to do that.

[GoBahnsen]

Sin is basically doing that which is against God's will. To liken it to the law is a good start, but Christ in Matt 5 says that the law says not to murder, but that one breaks that law if he is angry with his brother.

Consequently, if one is to be perfect and not sin, he must not only know the law but all the nuances of that law. Jesus effectively did away with the law and replaced it with a new law - Love one another. Paul describes love in 1 Corinthians 13 and I suspect that if anyone could ever grasp these things, he would be in a position not to sin.

However, we also know that Satan tempts us. As he did with Christ in the wilderness, he throws Scriptures at us to confuse us. Many of the temptations we face come from our ignorance of, or confusion about, what the Scriptures say. The whole issue of divorce is a good example. God hates it but some preachers say Christians can do it.

I would say that the ideal is to preach that Christians should not sin. To reach that ideal requires a committment that is difficult, if not impossible, to attain. We are, after all, still human. Nonetheless, we are commanded, Be holy even as God is holy. Our desire and expectation should be to do that.Nice post Rhut. I would add that if we walk in the Spirit we won't fulfill the lust of the flesh. Staying in that fresh place with the Lord seems to get away from us too easily.

We can get stale as Christians. Our hearts wander and we begin to lust for the onions, leeks and garlic of our former lives in the flesh. That is why we are called to be diligent. Disciplined, like a soldier. Yet, since we don't really see the devil ...and the world and the flesh don't always appear to be enemies, we lose our grip on diligence. We forget that we truly are in a warfare and our weapons are not carnal, but mighty through God.

Here's one tip, if I may offer it, for getting some victory over sin. Use the Word. For example: if I glance at some babe running down the street, ponytail swinging back and forth with her halter top on, times past at might have myself a good long look and start lusting in my heart. That's death right there. So now by God's grace, I quickly look away (hard, especially at first) and I use the Word. I say to myself " If a man looks upon a woman to lust after her he has committed adultery with her already in his heart." "If you live after the flesh you shall die..."

Then I meditate on that as I am distancing myself from the temptation. I verbally thank the Lord for His grace to give me power over the flesh. Maybe finish by singing a hymn or spiritual song to the Lord. Just some reminders for us who know the Lord and who already know these things. We can be strong in Christ and only in Him.

[rhutchin]

Nice post Rhut. I would add that if we walk in the Spirit we won't fulfill the lust of the flesh. Staying in that fresh place with the Lord seems to get away from us too easily.

We can get stale as Christians. Our hearts wander and we begin to lust for the onions, leeks and garlic of our former lives in the flesh. That is why we are called to be diligent. Disciplined, like a soldier. Yet, since we don't really see the devil ...and the world and the flesh don't always appear to be enemies, we lose our grip on diligence. We forget that we truly are in a warfare and our weapons are not carnal, but mighty through God.

Here's one tip, if I may offer it, for getting some victory over sin. Use the Word. For example: if I glance at some babe running down the street, ponytail swinging back and forth with her halter top on, times past at might have myself a good long look and start lusting in my heart. That's death right there. So now by God's grace, I quickly look away (hard, especially at first) and I use the Word. I say to myself " If a man looks upon a woman to lust after her he has committed adultery with her already in his heart." "If you live after the flesh you shall die..."

Then I meditate on that as I am distancing myself from the temptation. I verbally thank the Lord for His grace to give me power over the flesh. Maybe finish by singing a hymn or spiritual song to the Lord. Just some reminders for us who know the Lord and who already know these things. We can be strong in Christ and only in Him.

Good observations and good advice.

[Ormly]

We Sin and not know it?! Only the ignorant of God would do such a thing. Consider Job. He had no "second nature" as the born again today, yet he sinned not. He eschewed evil/sin. And you are forced to say he was totally depraved in his success, which is a contradiction to your dogma. God saw him as blameless. How come you all now find it so easy to excuse away your so-called inability to purify your own souls and even call the attempt an error filled "sinless perfection" doctrine in the face of the words of Jesus Himself who says otherwise? :ahem:

[rhutchin]

We Sin and not know it?! Only the ignorant of God would do such a thing. Consider Job. He had no "second nature" as the born again today, yet he sinned not. He eschewed evil/sin. And you are forced to say he was totally depraved in his success, which is a contradiction to your dogma. God saw him as blameless. How come you all now find it so easy to excuse away your so-called inability to purify your own souls and even call the attempt an error filled "sinless perfection" doctrine in the face of the words of Jesus Himself who says otherwise? :ahem:

I doubt that any Christian is aware of the totality of the sin that they commit. If they were, the world would be a different place. All Christians begin as babies and, as such, learn through their study of the Scriptures just as a child learns in school. No 5-year old knows everything and no Christian knows everything. Paul continually exhorts Christians in his letters to grow in knowledge.

Job eschewed the evil/sin of which he was aware, however he was still aware of his need for a redeemer and he was convinced that his redeemer lived. Job knew that he was a sinner despite the good that he sought to do.

I do not understand your last sentence above -- "How come you all now find it so easy to excuse away your so-called inability to purify your own souls and even call the attempt an error filled "sinless perfection" doctrine in the face of the words of Jesus Himself who says otherwise?"

[Ormly]

I doubt that any Christian is aware of the totality of the sin that they commit. If they were, the world would be a different place. All Christians begin as babies and, as such, learn through their study of the Scriptures just as a child learns in school. No 5-year old knows everything and no Christian knows everything. Paul continually exhorts Christians in his letters to grow in knowledge.Why? Scripture plainly teaches they do know. Oh, I see, you must be referring to the nominal Christian or maybe the converted but regenerate. In that I would agree. They aren't aware of much given the cheap salvation message is most all they ever hear from the pulpit week after week. Anyone knows when reading Paul that he is speaking to Spirit filled, tongues speaking, born again Christians who are endeavoring to be disciples and not "just saved" folk seeking to keep their fire insurance paid up..


Job eschewed the evil/sin of which he was aware, however he was still aware of his need for a redeemer and he was convinced that his redeemer lived. Job knew that he was a sinner despite the good that he sought to do.

I do not understand your last sentence above -- "How come you all now find it so easy to excuse away your so-called inability to purify your own souls and even call the attempt an error filled "sinless perfection" doctrine in the face of the words of Jesus Himself who says otherwise?"Sorry, I find that hard to believe. Perhaps 1 Peter 1 might be a help if you read it. And Job's need for a redeemer stemmed from that fact that he could make the distinctions between the unrighteousness he could do nothing about i.e., the transgression of Adam, and the unrighteousness he knew he was responsible for, his own character displayed in everyday life. I wonder how it was that he desired to please God in his life being totally depraved and totally unregenerate?

[Jude3b]

Can we earn salvation? No!

Our only hope is in Christ and what He bought for us on the cross.

That much said, we should obey Him and stop the sinning. He Love us - why would we want to bring shame upon Him and go on sinning and sinning and sinning? Obviously if we are truly saved and love Him, we won't! We will live our lives to His glory - and by His grace and love. Amen.

[Ormly]

Can we earn salvation? No!

Our only hope is in Christ and what He bought for us on the cross.

That much said, we should obey Him and stop the sinning. He Love us - why would we want to bring shame upon Him and go on sinning and sinning and sinning? Obviously if we are truly saved and love Him, we won't! We will live our lives to His glory - and by His grace and love. Amen.

That's true. Now what does 1 Peter 1 speak of and who is it written to?

[GoBahnsen]

Can we earn salvation? No!

Our only hope is in Christ and what He bought for us on the cross.

That much said, we should obey Him and stop the sinning. He Love us - why would we want to bring shame upon Him and go on sinning and sinning and sinning? Obviously if we are truly saved and love Him, we won't! We will live our lives to His glory - and by His grace and love. Amen.This thread would probably be better off in Christianity 201, but I'll let it ride because of the unorthodox participation (not you Jude).

I think we have got to be very careful about the talk of "let's just stop sinning."
As if sin is just outward acts. It would be a lot easier if sin were just stopping the adultery, the stealing, the cheating, the lying. Most Christians have gotten that out of the way (by God's grace) already. Or have they?Stealing? Do we give our time and service to God in it's fulness? No we steal time from God. Lying? Do we tell God we are going to do X and then don't? Liars. Do we spend more time and energy loving ourselves more than God and neighbor? Cheaters! Any talk of "let's just say no" fails to recognize the depths of our depravity and our desparate need for an alien righteousness. The more we think we can keep the law, the less we will appreciate what Jesus has done for us who believe.

I'm not saying we shouldn't fight sin everyday. We should, but let us recognize that even in our fight against sin we often do it sinfully. We fall short of God's glory and we need His mercies new every morning. The goal insn't to stop sinning, but to move closer to Jesus in our communion with Him. Confess to Him our sin. Talk with Him. Seek Him. Learn of Him. Share Him. Praise Him. Live for Him.

The focus on Pious living often turns into a legalistic endeavor and a judgmental attitude toward those who exercise a liberty we think is sinful. Being pious is good, but it can go astray easily and perfectionistic teachings often snare a dumb sheep who can't recognize the danger associated with it.

[cuja1]

I just wanted to add that if you think it is impossible to not sin then you are missing out on an amazing experience. You would be missing out on the experience to let God's power work in you. When you try not to sin, you will see the ferocious battle you are facing and that only God can help you overcome it. I believe this also leads to greater love for God. I won't say I'm even close to being perfect but I have experienced a joy in striving for perfection. I don't mean to make it sound like it's a fun experience all the time, sometimes this striving can be more of a drudgery. But when you feel God's power working through you, it's pretty awesome.

[GoBahnsen]

I just wanted to add that if you think it is impossible to not sin then you are missing out on an amazing experience. So it is possible to not sin? What's stopping us then? And even if you are "not there"...are others? And if so, what makes them more cooperative than you? Why are you so bad, but they have stopped being bad?


You would be missing out on the experience to let God's power work in you. Why can't we experience God's power working in us without believing we can stop sinning altogether? Must we believe that sinless perfection is attainable in this life and in fact has been possibly attained by some, in order to not "miss out" trying to get it?


When you try not to sin, you will see the ferocious battle you are facing and that only God can help you overcome it. I believe this also leads to greater love for God. Or a legalistic heart and a holier than thou attitude? Not saying this about you friend, but I want to exercise a great caution at this juncture in thought.


I won't say I'm even close to being perfect but I have experienced a joy in striving for perfection. Nothing wrong with striving against sin. It's when we say, perfection is attainable that we open up to a host of strange and dangerous teachings.


I don't mean to make it sound like it's a fun experience all the time, sometimes this striving can be more of a drudgery. But when you feel God's power working through you, it's pretty awesome.
Yes it is, I know of it and it is exciting, but what is more exciting is being found in Christ not having a righteousness of my own which is through perfect obedience to the law.

[gary cook]

Well we may sin everyday .Because we only know in part ,But satan is not the problem ,We have been given power over him .Our flesh is the problem .But when born again ,our spirit is made perfect and can not sin .The flesh it can .But when BORN AGAIN ?WE are NEW CREATURES ,in the world ,but not of it .We are to reckon our selfs dead with CHRIST JESUS .their for we sin not .But the flesh may .We can not make our selfs clean ,the flesh I speak of .But we are perfect in the LORD .We live in grace by FAITH .if we walk in love,we will not sin .sin is rebellion to GOD .So as long as we don"t rebell .by doing things hE told us not too do But the body is full of sin ,That is why it dies ,But we have A new body waiting for us in NEW JERUSALEM .Which is above ,JESUS CHRIST IS THEIR NOW .it is heading here now in space .

[Ormly]

The focus on Pious living often turns into a legalistic endeavor and a judgmental attitude toward those who exercise a liberty we think is sinful. Being pious is good, but it can go astray easily and perfectionistic teachings often snare a dumb sheep who can't recognize the danger associated with it.



Is that the only thing it can be called?? Pious?? How about righteous living humbly lived before the Lord, Hmmmm? Why the extreme label you place on it except to attempt to excuse your own shortcomings and lack in doing the Great Commandmant and anyone elses who you desire to keep at your level of spirituality. I'd ask that question[s] of anyone with that kind of an "unregenerate" mind set, not just you.

[Lion]

I see a cry for help in the thread. I think most people try too hard to avoid sin and forget what Paul said in this text:

Gal. 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

What is Paul saying here? What did Christ do for you and me? Christ offers forgivness free for the asking. All we have to do is confess our sins and He will forgive us. We need to forget the mistakes of the past. Quit focussing on resisting Satan and focus on the salvation we are offered in Jesus. When we live in Christ, all the effort of resisting the devil goes away. Not that we may sin, but we are FORGIVEN. Sin does not have dominion over us. God looks at the tendency of the life, not on the sin we may commit. They have been forgiven. Focussing on living a sinless life leads to legalism. Focus on the life in Christ. Trust Jesus to lead you into the Christ centered life. Let the Holy Spirit speak to you when you pray. Study the Word and let the word guide you.

[Ormly]

Never mind that He redeemed you, what are you doing for Christ should now be your question. And this idiocy: When we live in Christ, all the effort of resisting the devil goes away

Did it go away from Him?? Why then should we expect it to be otherwise with us, Hmmm? What do think overcoming is all about?

[Jude3b]

That's true. Now what does 1 Peter 1 speak of and who is it written to?

Dear Ormly:

You need to include verses 1 thru 9 of the First Epistle of Peter to understand who and what Peter was writing to. He obviously was writing to the "elect" who were scattered throughout what is now modern Turkey. Peter knew there were suffering grief in all kinds of trials and he wrote to encourage them to perservere in a "lively hope."

[Ormly]

Dear Ormly:

You need to include verses 1 thru 9 of the First Epistle of Peter to understand who and what Peter was writing to. He obviously was writing to the "elect" who were scattered throughout what is now modern Turkey. Peter knew there were suffering grief in all kinds of trials and he wrote to encourage them to perservere in a "lively hope."
Doesn't 1 Peter 1 mean the whole chapter? If I meant only 1 Peter 1.1 I would have stated it that way.:ahem:

[GoBahnsen]

Is that the only thing it can be called?? Pious?? How about righteous living humbly lived before the Lord, Hmmmm? Why the extreme label you place on it except to attempt to excuse your own shortcomings and lack in doing the Great Commandmant and anyone elses who you desire to keep at your level of spirituality. I'd ask that question[s] of anyone with that kind of an "unregenerate" mind set, not just you.You're on to me again. Can't hide anything from you Orm. Yes the extreme label, that extreme word "pious" was used by me to excuse by own shortcomings and lack of doing the great Commandment and my desire to keep others at my level of spirituality. Hey, it's the best a guy can do when he is unregenerate.

I hope I can one day become like you and show the love and compassion, the patience in well doing and that I can see the truth as you so wonderfully express it in your warm and loving posts.

[Ormly]

You're on to me again. Can't hide anything from you Orm. Yes the extreme label, that extreme word "pious" was used by me to excuse by own shortcomings and lack of doing the great Commandment and my desire to keep others at my level of spirituality. Hey, it's the best a guy can do when he is unregenerate.

I hope I can one day become like you and show the love and compassion, the patience in well doing and that I can see the truth as you so wonderfully express it in your warm and loving posts.

Being serious about the Gospel would be a step in the right direction. ---but then, one must know it.

[GoBahnsen]

Being serious about the Gospel would be a step in the right direction. ---but then, one must know it.Have you checked with Nahum? He knows what it is and I hope I can too one day. This being unregenerate really stinks.

[rhutchin]

rhutchin
I doubt that any Christian is aware of the totality of the sin that they commit. If they were, the world would be a different place. All Christians begin as babies and, as such, learn through their study of the Scriptures just as a child learns in school. No 5-year old knows everything and no Christian knows everything. Paul continually exhorts Christians in his letters to grow in knowledge.

Ormly
Why? Scripture plainly teaches they do know. Oh, I see, you must be referring to the nominal Christian or maybe the converted but regenerate. In that I would agree. They aren't aware of much given the cheap salvation message is most all they ever hear from the pulpit week after week. Anyone knows when reading Paul that he is speaking to Spirit filled, tongues speaking, born again Christians who are endeavoring to be disciples and not "just saved" folk seeking to keep their fire insurance paid up..

It would be helpful if you could display the Scriptures that you think show that people are aware of the totality of their sin. I was referring to the most mature, as well as the nominal, Christian. If cheap salvation messages are the source of nominal Christians, then it is likely that those nominal Christians are not actually saved. Salvation entails some degree of knowledge of one’s need for salvation that is not available through cheap salvation messages. I suspect Paul is speaking to those Christians who, like the Bereans, search the Scriptures daily to see what those Scriptures say.


rhutchin
Job eschewed the evil/sin of which he was aware, however he was still aware of his need for a redeemer and he was convinced that his redeemer lived. Job knew that he was a sinner despite the good that he sought to do.

I do not understand your last sentence above -- "How come you all now find it so easy to excuse away your so-called inability to purify your own souls and even call the attempt an error filled "sinless perfection" doctrine in the face of the words of Jesus Himself who says otherwise?"

Ormly
Sorry, I find that hard to believe. Perhaps 1 Peter 1 might be a help if you read it. And Job's need for a redeemer stemmed from that fact that he could make the distinctions between the unrighteousness he could do nothing about i.e., the transgression of Adam, and the unrighteousness he knew he was responsible for, his own character displayed in everyday life. I wonder how it was that he desired to please God in his life being totally depraved and totally unregenerate?

Maybe you could explain what you think 1 Peter 1 says and relate it to this discussion. The desire to please God is derived, in part, from one’s knowledge that they do not please God. The believer’s knowledge that he disobeys Him whom he desires to obey because he cannot control his own desires contributes to a poverty of spirit that increasingly causes the believer to rely on God and not on himself.

[Ormly]

[QUOTE]rhutchin



I doubt that any Christian is aware of the totality of the sin that they commit. If they were, the world would be a different place. All Christians begin as babies and, as such, learn through their study of the Scriptures just as a child learns in school. No 5-year old knows everything and no Christian knows everything. Paul continually exhorts Christians in his letters to grow in knowledge.

Ormly
Why? Scripture plainly teaches they do know. Oh, I see, you must be referring to the nominal Christian or maybe the converted but unregenerate. In that I would agree. They aren't aware of much given the cheap salvation message is most all they ever hear from the pulpit week after week. Anyone knows when reading Paul that he is speaking to Spirit filled, tongues speaking, born again Christians who are endeavoring to be disciples and not "just saved" folk seeking to keep their fire insurance paid up..


It would be helpful if you could display the Scriptures that you think show that people are aware of the totality of their sin.Are you sure? And why the need to reveal the totality of it, isn't a little bit enough? What sin prevents was enough for those in the OT that it was eschewed by the righteous. Don't you already know enough stories about them? Try David, Job. Make some distinctions and see some contrasts.





I was referring to the most mature, as well as the nominal, Christian. If cheap salvation messages are the source of nominal Christians, then it is likely that those nominal Christians are not actually saved.That's true. Many probably aren't. Isn't that a sad commentary? Where would you place the blame?


Salvation entails some degree of knowledge of one’s need for salvation that is not available through cheap salvation messages. I suspect Paul is speaking to those Christians who, like the Bereans, search the Scriptures daily to see what those Scriptures say.True again. Among others I'm sure Paul spoke to a variety of mature-immature Christians but mostly to Pentecostal ones because that was a normal experience for the Christian that Paul lead them into.[Acts 19.2] Strange, huh? And he wasn't even there on the day of Pentecost but Oh, his own experience on that road to smite a few.
rhutchin
Job eschewed the evil/sin of which he was aware, however he was still aware of his need for a redeemer and he was convinced that his redeemer lived. Job knew that he was a sinner despite the good that he sought to do.

I do not understand your last sentence above -- "How come you all now find it so easy to excuse away your so-called inability to purify your own souls and even call the attempt an error filled "sinless perfection" doctrine in the face of the words of Jesus Himself who says otherwise?"

Ormly
Sorry, I find that hard to believe. Perhaps 1 Peter 1 might be a help if you read it. And Job's need for a redeemer stemmed from that fact that he could make the distinctions between the unrighteousness he could do nothing about i.e., the transgression of Adam, and the unrighteousness he knew he was responsible for, his own character displayed in everyday life. I wonder how it was that he desired to please God in his life being totally depraved and totally unregenerate?
Maybe you could explain what you think 1 Peter 1 says and relate it to this discussion. The desire to please God is derived, in part, from one’s knowledge that they do not please God. The believer’s knowledge that he disobeys Him whom he desires to obey because he cannot control his own desires contributes to a poverty of spirit that increasingly causes the believer to rely on God and not on himself.Based on your questions, your perspective is "totally" wrong. Though poverty of spirit points to unregenerate man's recognition of his need it is but the beginning step when he [the sincere] calls upon the Lord to correct the situation, "He shall be filled". Upon being filled; the indwelling born again experience, he knows he has received something because he begins to mourn --- for others. In this there is no attitude of the Monk who runs off to make jams and jellies. ))
1 Peter 1 points to the responsibilty of the one who loves God. It is our responsibility to purify our own soul by the same power Jesus had as a man and in much the same way i.e, trials and temptations from our old nature. Surely you haven't forgotten what he brought you from that continues to drag you down. Keep in mind Jesus didn't have to overcome His human nature, He had to protect it as Adam didn't protect his! Jesus overcame Satan who came at Him from the outside as he did when he came against Adam. With us it is our sinful human nature where we will find him to defeat him. Jesus said: "Abide in me..." ---kingdom living, here.

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good" p[the Word of the Lord].Romans 12:21 (NASB-U) Resist him -- he will flee. Remmber?

Now --- who was Paul speaking to? The Bereans? The unregenerate" ?

See Jn 17 to review the prayer of Jesus with regard to becoming one with the Father.

1 Peter 1:7 (KJV)
That the trial of your faith,[allegiance] being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: ---

1 Peter 1:9 (KJV)
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. ----

1 Peter 1:13 (KJV)
Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

WHY?? Since by your thinking God does all this as by some magical experience that man can't prevent from happening if God so chooses and for the born again, it's a done deal. You're wrong! Regenerate man still has a respnsibility.

------ As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 1 Peter 1:14 (KJV)

Therefore:

----- it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1 Peter 1:16 (KJV)

Does that sound like "sinless perfection" I don't think so and it is very necessary since:
"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:35 (NASB-U)

Striving for Holiness is a deterent to self-righteousness; for the pure in heart, because they shall see God.

Now ---- Seeing you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 1 Peter 1:22 (KJV)

------------And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. 1 Peter 1:25 (KJV)

To that I say "amen". I did my best.

[rhutchin]

rhutchin
Maybe you could explain what you think 1 Peter 1 says and relate it to this discussion. The desire to please God is derived, in part, from one’s knowledge that they do not please God. The believer’s knowledge that he disobeys Him whom he desires to obey because he cannot control his own desires contributes to a poverty of spirit that increasingly causes the believer to rely on God and not on himself.

Ormly
Based on your questions, your perspective is "totally" wrong. Though poverty of spirit points to unregenerate man's recognition of his need it is but the beginning step when he [the sincere] calls upon the Lord to correct the situation, "He shall be filled". Upon being filled; the indwelling born again experience, he knows he has received something because he begins to mourn --- for others. In this there is no attitude of the Monk who runs off to make jams and jellies. ))
1 Peter 1 points to the responsibilty of the one who loves God. It is our responsibility to purify our own soul by the same power Jesus had as a man and in much the same way i.e, trials and temptations from our old nature. Surely you haven't forgotten what he brought you from that continues to drag you down. Keep in mind Jesus didn't have to overcome His human nature, He had to protect it as Adam didn't protect his! Jesus overcame Satan who came at Him from the outside as he did when he came against Adam. With us it is our sinful human nature where we will find him to defeat him. Jesus said: "Abide in me..." ---kingdom living, here.

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good" p[the Word of the Lord].Romans 12:21 (NASB-U) Resist him -- he will flee. Remmber?

Now --- who was Paul speaking to? The Bereans? The unregenerate" ?

See Jn 17 to review the prayer of Jesus with regard to becoming one with the Father.

1 Peter 1:7 (KJV)
That the trial of your faith,[allegiance] being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: ---

1 Peter 1:9 (KJV)
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. ----

1 Peter 1:13 (KJV)
Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

WHY?? Since by your thinking God does all this as by some magical experience that man can't prevent from happening if God so chooses and for the born again, it's a done deal. You're wrong! Regenerate man still has a responsibility.

------ As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 1 Peter 1:14 (KJV)

Therefore:

----- it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1 Peter 1:16 (KJV)

Does that sound like "sinless perfection" I don't think so and it is very necessary since:
"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:35 (NASB-U)

Striving for Holiness is a deterent to self-righteousness; for the pure in heart, because they shall see God.

Now ---- Seeing you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 1 Peter 1:22 (KJV)

------------And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. 1 Peter 1:25 (KJV)

To that I say "amen". I did my best.

You made a good start but left some loose ends.

Let’s focus on the following statements that you made.

Regenerate man still has a responsibility…

Therefore:

----- it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1 Peter 1:16 (KJV)

Does that sound like "sinless perfection" I don't think so and it is very necessary since:…

Striving for Holiness is a deterent to self-righteousness; for the pure in heart, because they shall see God.

It seems that you are saying that man does not achieve sinless perfection after being saved and that it is then his responsibility to strive for holiness.

If that is correct, then can you identify what it is that you think man must strive against? Can you explain what makes it necessary for a person to strive against whatever it is you think he must strive against?

[gary cook]

GOD said to be perfect ,as HE is.The flesh is full of sin ,But we are SPIRIT Sin this flesh .And do not sin .The flesh sins.Other wise the HOLY SPIRIT could not dwell ,with in us .GOD CAN NOT LOOK UPON SIN .

[rhutchin]

GOD said to be perfect ,as HE is.The flesh is full of sin ,But we are SPIRIT Sin this flesh .And do not sin .The flesh sins.Other wise the HOLY SPIRIT could not dwell ,with in us .GOD CAN NOT LOOK UPON SIN .

Ormly has taken the position that the flesh is not full of sin, at least not after God saves a person. That is contrary to your observation.

Ormly then says that man must strive to be perfect. Apparently, Ormly's position is that man is not full of sin but neither is he full of perfection. The pefection that Christ's commands is what man must strive for but in striving for perfection, man is not hindered by any sin that may reside in his flesh (although Ormly may admit to some residue of sin - It is difficult to tell exactly what Ormly believes). I do not want to put words in Ormly's mouth, but it seems that he is heading in that direction.

[Ormly]

You made a good start but left some loose ends.

Let’s focus on the following statements that you made.It seems that you are saying that man does not achieve sinless perfection after being saved and that it is then his responsibility to strive for holiness.That's right and by his love for the Father he will proceed in that direction just as Jesus, the man, did as our example.

If that is correct, then can you identify what it is that you think man must strive against?Himself; his lusts that are amplified within him that are antagonistic towards the mind of God/faith OF Christ. What do you believe regenerate man is to overcome, Satan? Jesus did that! All we have to do is resist him, remember? Satan has access to our old nature IF we allow him by our will and choosing. So, as Paul says, "don't quench the Spirit". [you just might ask the question: why?, if Paul didn't have something in mind when he said that]
Jesus, by virtue of the new birth, has given us the means to overcome that which Satan desires to get at in us that will cause us to fail in Christ and the reason for our salvation if we are not alert to his schemes. Those of us of Penetecost are given every power that Jesus possessed. Therfore, you who would deny Pentecost for today, does: "Put on the whole armour of God that you be able to stand.." say to you if not that we have the same power?

[rhutchin]

rhutchin
It seems that you are saying that man does not achieve sinless perfection after being saved and that it is then his responsibility to strive for holiness. If that is correct, then can you identify what it is that you think man must strive against?

Ormly
Himself; his lusts that are amplified within him that are antagonistic towards the mind of God/faith OF Christ. …

Against his lusts? That sounds like the idea behind Depravity even if not Total Depravity.

However, even in view of these “lusts” your position is still that the saved person is not Totally Depraved. The distinction might be that the saved person now desires to please God whereas the unsaved person has no desire for God.

However, your acknowledgement that man must still contend with his former lusts (the spirit is willing but the flesh is still weak) is sufficient for this argument.

The original issue was whether the person whom God has saved is aware of the totality of his sin. If such a person is aware of all the lusts that remain and that he strives against, then we might say that he could be aware of all his sin. However, if that person is not cognizant of all the lusts that are at work in his members, then he could not be aware of the totality of his sin.

There is a test that would help us determine whether a person is fully aware of the lusts that work in his flesh. James 4:3 tells us that if we ask God for something and do not receive it, then it is because our request was only to satisfy our passions or lusts. If a person always receives that which he prays for then we might assume that he has a pretty good handle on the lusts that work in his flesh and does not allow those lusts to enter into his prayers. If a person does not receive the things for which he asks, then we might conclude that he either is not aware of the lusts raging within him or cannot control them. Either way, we can say that he is not fully aware of the lusts working in him and therefore not aware of the totality of sin that he is committing.

[Ormly]

Against his lusts? That sounds like the idea behind Depravity even if not Total Depravity.

However, even in view of these “lusts” your position is still that the saved person is not Totally Depraved. The distinction might be that the saved person now desires to please God whereas the unsaved person has no desire for God.

However, your acknowledgement that man must still contend with his former lusts (the spirit is willing but the flesh is still weak) is sufficient for this argument.

The original issue was whether the person whom God has saved is aware of the totality of his sin. If such a person is aware of all the lusts that remain and that he strives against, then we might say that he could be aware of all his sin. However, if that person is not cognizant of all the lusts that are at work in his members, then he could not be aware of the totality of his sin.

There is a test that would help us determine whether a person is fully aware of the lusts that work in his flesh. James 4:3 tells us that if we ask God for something and do not receive it, then it is because our request was only to satisfy our passions or lusts. If a person always receives that which he prays for then we might assume that he has a pretty good handle on the lusts that work in his flesh and does not allow those lusts to enter into his prayers. If a person does not receive the things for which he asks, then we might conclude that he either is not aware of the lusts raging within him or cannot control them. Either way, we can say that he is not fully aware of the lusts working in him and therefore not aware of the totality of sin that he is committing.
Oh, Bull. Enough. Stick to your self-help books, 12 twelve step programs and Disneyland church. I'm done.