Determinism And The Attributes Of God [Archive]

lee_merrill

September 11th 2004, 05:54 PM

Hi Seer,

What if God simply created men and angels to display His attributes? And though this play we call life God makes Himself known to all rational beings. In one set of beings He displays His attributes of love, mercy, grace, tenderness, etc... in the other set of beings He displays His attributes of justice, hatred, anger, indignation, etc... That through this drama all sentient beings (both lost and saved) come to a "Knowledge of the Holy?"I don't believe God expresses his love and can put his justice on hold, though, or that he can express his justice without also expressing his love:

Psalm 136:17-20 Who struck down great kings, His love endures forever. And killed mighty kings--His love endures forever. Sihon king of the Amorites, His love endures forever. And Og king of Bashan--His love endures forever.

Now this might mean love just for the Israelites! It might mean love even for these kings, too, though.

And if this is the reality of the thing, will it do any good to cry foul?Certainly we can't claim a right to question God!

Romans 9:20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?

But then Paul goes on for two more chapters! Explaining God's ways. So I believe we will be fully satisfied, both with God's mercy, and with his justice, we won't have to stop at "God did it, so it must be fair by definition," forever.

Job 42:5-6 "My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes."

Now Job was rebuked for speaking about what he didn't know! But here he repents, because (he says), now I see you. He understands better! Now his questions are answered, not left off in a corner, or pushed aside. God isn't afraid of our questions, he wants us to try and understand…

Proverbs 2:3-5 … and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Blessings,
Lee

freelight

September 17th 2004, 06:32 PM

Once GB, called me a closet Calvinist. There may be some truth to that. Certainly the doctrine of determinism has always brought me much comfort.

So let me ask - what if all this is not about free will at all. What if God simply created men and angels to display His attributes? And though this play we call life God makes Himself known to all rational beings. In one set of beings He displays His attributes of love, mercy, grace, tenderness, etc... in the other set of beings He displays His attributes of justice, hatred, anger, indignation, etc... That through this drama all sentient beings (both lost and saved) come to a "Knowledge of the Holy?" And if this is the reality of the thing, will it do any good to cry foul?
Greetings seer,

Things are intentionally determined indeed....but this does not imply such determination will be absolutely actualized by the determiner. Free will certainly plays a part within the coordinations of the souls station, condition and destiny. We as sentient beings have been given an arena of freedom in which to think/act and determine our destinies. Our determinations are of course coordinated within the Matrix of the greater divine Will. A common quadary in this paradigm...is discovering the dynamics of these coordinations....and the play of the souls power of will in relation to divine Will. It would appear that the soul has some degree of liberty to choose whatever course it wills within the grant of God. Gods universal will must be for the salvation and ultimate liberation of all IMO. The divine laws of justice/mercy play out with all sentient beings and all reap what they sow - this is universal law. So naturally the attributes of God and his laws are manifest thru all/creation. In this case God does not will any to perish or be destroyed...although some will apparently take this course. Thru-out it all....Gods holiness is evident as his laws are universal - none can escape the judgments of Light...the light of conscience which is a reflection of divine law/discernment. These judgments are going on moment to moment - these dynamics at work within all souls who have their being in God. It is the law of compensation/sowing & reaping.

What brings me comfort is that God has given me a soul whose will is in a sense sovereign. Thats right. This grants a divine honor and responsibility to my own being that God would bestow such upon a soul. God willed and it pleasured him to give me life/consciousness/liberty of will. Each have this grant of freedom by the measure given by God. My destiny has been determined, pre-planned, fore-ordained as the intentional vision of God. His Will is sovereign and transcendentally supernal - yet he has given me a certain sovereignty of will as it pertains to my own personal destiny/course.

So....God is not willing and taking pleasure in the torture, suffering, harm or destruction of any of his children.....ever! A notion that God somehow preplanned that He would pour out his wrath on certain souls just so he could somehow be glorified or deemed 'holy' is unreasonable to me. God is glorified in the supremacy of his Love...and the glory of eternal Life, Wisdom, Truth, goodness, beauty. All wickedness, depravity, corruption will eventually be purged in the brightness of the divine Glory in the lives of those who bare his divine seed...and have chosen Life over spiritual death/extinction - those who choose and desire the living waters shall be nourished thereby.

Notice that Gods mercy/justice are ever being manifested in the lives of all sentient beings. The law works universally and all are tempered by it. God is not torturing anyone.....but none can escape from the law of compensation(reaping & sowing). This acknowledges the souls dignity in its own choosing....and none can lay the blame on God as having forced a souls salvation or damnation. The pursuasive will of God is ever emenating its divine influence....but such is tempered by the free will coordinations of the soul. Gods glory is intact and manifested in all dimensions in the interplay of Creator-creature relationships. Besides the judgements transpiring at all times within the conscience.....the attributes of Deity/LAW will be manifested at the end of certain epochal dispensations as well...perhaps in greater degree.

So...this 'play of Life' is an infinite field where free will liberties are given a stage....an opportunity of being, expression. I dont think its about God making two sets of people and determining that one group gets to be saved and the other gets to be damned...and this 'determination' somehow gives God glory :blush: . I fail to see any divine logic in that scenario. Rewards and punishments for adherence or transgression of divine law are inherent in Life itself and Gods law is glorified thru-out.

God has determined that we have life/existence/being. Included in this grant of being....is the nobility of a certain freedom...to be and be-come that which divine Will intends. This Will is supreme in that it is transcendental and immanently vital. Even so.....the coordinates of consciousness within a soul are ever at work affecting the 'determinants' which guide ones course temporily and likewise eternally. This is the dignity of be-ing and be-coming that I see as bestowed by Deity to all free souls/Man.

I am almost a universalist :smile: ...however....because I maintain a certain sovereignty of free will....it appears that some souls may choose to forfeit their souls/be expunged/made extinct as it were. Many perspectives of course exist within these scenarios/possibilities.

Look forward to responsive dialogue if you 'choose' :wink:

paul