Should Christians Go to War?

[barryrob]

I moved this to another thread as it was off the topic of the first thread and Barryrob indicated it might be better in a separate thread. I agree. I also removed portions of my quotes that did not deal with war from this post






I don't like war either and yes some christian churches have done some horrendous things and if they made claim to be spokesmen for God and their predictions did not come to pass, then they were false prophets too. But to claim that because the church supports a war that it is satanic is not right either. Was it wrong to stop the Nazi's from taking over the world and killing all those Jews? No it was a just war. If you condemn war just because you think God does not condone bloodshed, then you have a problem with Jehovah in the Old Testament, where he sends his people to conquer whole cities, killing all men, women and children.



The problem is not with christians wanting peace and being peaceful. The problem is with evil men subjugating their fellow men and our job as Christians is to fight for true peace and to fight evil in the world. To allow evil free reign in the name of "pacificism" is to condone evil. If no one stepped up to stop Hitler, you would not be a Jehovah's Witness today, but either a Nazi, or dead.




As I say you are still trying to fit us into a mould that just will not fit!

On war. The Bibles view of those who go to war:-

Catholics that kill Catholics or protestants that kill protestants etc.:-

1 John 4:20-21 If anyone makes the statement: “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother*, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him, that the one who loves God should be loving his brother also.
*Same faith but on the other side.

On those who call themselves Christian and yet kill other humans:-

2 Corinthians 10:3-4 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to [what we are in the] flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, . . .

1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a manslayer, and YOU know that no manslayer has everlasting life remaining in him.

Thus have no part in the following:-

John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

And Why?:-

1 John 3:10-12 The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message which YOU have heard from [the] beginning, that we should have love for one another; 12 not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for the sake of what did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother [were] righteous.



No John your view of war is not that of God’s, as Christians are about saving lives, not taking them with guns, bombs, flame throwers, poison gas, showing me you do no have the correct or same prospective on The Bible as the early Christians:-


By Roy W. Davies' book titled 'Service in the Roman Army on pages 13-14 reads as follows:-

"12 March AD 295, at Theveste, in the forum. Fabius Victor, together with Maximilianus, were brought before the court, and the prosecutor Pompeianus addressed the court. 'Fabius Victor has been appointed recruting-officer with Valesianus Quintianus, the praepositus of Caesariensis. Maximilianus, the son of Victor, is a good recruit, and since he has the qualities to be approved, I submit that he be measured'. Dio the proconsul said, 'What is your name? I cannot serve as a soldier, because I am a christian'. Dio the proconsul replied, ;Get him ready, Let him be measured'. When he had been measured, his height was read out by an equerry, 'He is five feet, ten inches'. Dio said the equerry, 'Give him the signaculum'*. Maximilianus resisted and replied, 'I do not do so. I cannot serve as a soldier. I am a christian. I do not accept the signaculum* of the age, and if you give me the signaculum*, I will break it, because it has no validity. I cannot carry a piece of lead around my neck after the sign of my lord'. Dio said, 'remove his name'. . . . He was condemned, because he refused it take the military oath (sacramentum militiae recusavit) and wear the signaculum* and thus be signatus."
*"Like a modern identity disk"


"WAR Second and Third Centuries. The early church continued a dual view of the state. We have no evidence of Christians in the army prior to A.D. 170. When the pagan philosopher Celsus asserted that Christians were not bearing their duty to the empire but reaping the benefits, the apologetic defence was threefold: they were duty-bound to follow the way of Jesus Christ, for the "law of Christ" means "beating swords into plowshares," refusal of military warfare, and doing good to, even loving, the enemy (Justin, 1 Apol. 39; Irenaeus, Haer. 4.34.4; Tertullian, lud, 3; Origen, Cels. 5.33; 3.7-8; Hippolytus, Trad. ap. 17a; 19); they could not participate in the nation's idolatry especially manifest in the army, since army service required a sacred oath to the emperor and at times emperor worship (Tertullian, Idol. 19; Coron, 1; 11; Hippolytus, Trad. ap. 17b, 19); and their warfare was on a more significant level, namely, praying against the demons that inspire fighting and war (Tertullian, Apol. 32; Origen, Cels, 8.68-75; Athanasius, Inc. 52.4-6). Thus, the Christians replied by arguing that they were the true defenders of the peace of the empire; they worshipped the true God, who gave earthly kings their power. Christians also prayed for the armies to maintain peace as instruments of God's sovereignty (Tertullian, Apol. 30.4)."-Encyclopaedia of Early Christianity Editor Everett Ferguson p.937

So if one is to goes against what the Bible says on this fundamental matter I would find other theological views from such a source highly suspect as to it integrity to the rest of what the Scriptures say.

Perhaps it would be good to start a thread on ‘should those how claim to be Christians go to war’?

Barryrob

[Sparko]

Barryrob,

What is your view on Police officers?

Can (or should) a Christian be a police officer?

If not, does that mean you would like to see all police disbanded as they go against what the bible teaches?

[barryrob]

Barryrob,



A. What is your view on Police officers?



B. Can (or should) a Christian be a police officer?



C. If not, does that mean you would like to see all police disbanded as they go against what the bible teaches?



A. Matthew 22:21 "Pay back, therefore, Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God." Try to imagind what this world would be like with out them. I dred to think.


B.No Christian can take an occupation where they have to carry weapons, maybe with the exception, ia a brother is a farmer or pest control officer (Air Rifle) for the eradication of vermin or something along those lines.



C. The following texts apply:-

Romans 13:5-7 There is therefore compelling reason for YOU people to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of [YOUR] conscience. 6 For that is why YOU are also paying taxes; for they are God’s public servants constantly serving this very purpose. 7 Render to all their dues, to him who [calls for] the tax, the tax; to him who [calls for] the tribute, the tribute; to him who [calls for] fear, such fear; to him who [calls for] honor, such honor.


Romans 13:1-4 Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves. 3 For those ruling are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you, then, want to have no fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad.

But the overriding principle is at Acts 5:29 “In answer Peter and the [other] apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.” So where there is any conflicting ideas, God comes first.



Barryrob

[Sparko]

A. Matthew 22:21 "Pay back, therefore, Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God." Try to imagind what this world would be like with out them. I dred to think.


B.No Christian can take an occupation where they have to carry weapons, maybe with the exception, ia a brother is a farmer or pest control officer (Air Rifle) for the eradication of vermin or something along those lines.
Barryrob,

It is hard to follow your thinking. Instead of coming right out and saying something, you just quote scripture and expect it to speak for you.

The verse you quote above in "A" is speaking about paying taxes and has nothing to do with Police.



C. The following texts apply:-

Romans 13:5-7 There is therefore compelling reason for YOU people to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of [YOUR] conscience. 6 For that is why YOU are also paying taxes; for they are God’s public servants constantly serving this very purpose. 7 Render to all their dues, to him who [calls for] the tax, the tax; to him who [calls for] the tribute, the tribute; to him who [calls for] fear, such fear; to him who [calls for] honor, such honor.
Again, about paying taxes and respecting the government. It says nothing about police (other than to imply you should pay taxes to support the government and respect the authority of such as police officers)


Romans 13:1-4 Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves. 3 For those ruling are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you, then, want to have no fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad.
Basically this verse goes against your views. It is saying that God appoints the governments as authorities over us and give them the power to praise us or punish us (with the SWORD - e.g. weapons and violence when needed) and that the Government is God's minister and avenger.

It supports the idea that Police and Government are working for God, to praise the good and punish the evil. This would mean that it is OK to be a police officer and do God's will. Who better to carry out God's will in Government - a heathen or a Christian?


So do you agree it is OK for Government to act for God and punish those that do Evil? and to use a Sword (weapons)?

[barryrob]

[/font][/color]Barryrob,

It is hard to follow your thinking. Instead of coming right out and saying something, you just quote scripture and expect it to speak for you.

I ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT CHRISTIANS START WITH THE BIBLE FIRST SEE MATT 6:33?

The verse you quote above in "A" is speaking about paying taxes and has nothing to do with Police.

THE POLICE ARE EMPOLYED BUY CEASER (THE GOVERMENTS) SO GIVE THEM THE RESPECT THEY DESERVE AS REPRESANTIVES OF THE STATE/GOVERMENT.


Again, about paying taxes and respecting the government. It says nothing about police (other than to imply you should pay taxes to support the government and respect the authority of such as police officers)






Basically this verse goes against your views. It is saying that God appoints the governments as authorities over us and give them the power to praise us or punish us (with the SWORD - e.g. weapons and violence when needed) and that the Government is God's minister and avenger.

NO HE -GOD- DOES NOT THAY ARE MAN MADE AS MANY OF THEM STAND AGINST CHRIRISTANITY ALSO SATAN OFFERS JESUS ALL THE KINDOMS OF THE WORLD SO THEY ARE UNDER SATANS POWER AS SATAN HIMSELF SAID:-


Luke 4:5-8

So he (DEVIL) brought him (JESUS) up and showed him (JESUS) all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time; 6 and the Devil said to him: "I (DEVIL) will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me (DEVIL) , and to whomever I (DEVIL) wish I (DEVIL) give it. 7 You, therefore, if you (JESUS) do an act of worship before me (DEVIL), it will all be yours." 8 In reply Jesus said to him: "It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’"




It supports the idea that Police and Government are working for God, to praise the good and punish the evil. This would mean that it is OK to be a police officer and do God's will. Who better to carry out God's will in Government - a heathen or a Christian?



SOME OF THE THINGS THEY DO ARE GOOD BUT AS YOU ARE FULLY AWARE NOT ALL E.G THE LAWS THEY PASS RGARDING MORALS.
THE THINGS SOME POWERS DO TO CHRISTIAN IN SOME LANDS ARE VERY BAD, SO NOW ACCORDING TO YOU GOD APPOINTS POWERS THAT PERSECUTE & KILL CHRISTIANS, AND YOU SAY I'M WRONG?



So do you agree it is OK for Government to act for God and punish those that do Evil? and to use a Sword (weapons)?

SOMTIMES YES SOMTIMES NO, IT DEPPENDS UPON WHAT THEY CONSIDER AN EVIL ACT IS AND WHAT GOD CONSIDER AN EVIL ACT IS!


Barryrob

[Sparko]

Barry, watch those quote tags. You had all of your responses inside my quoted text.


It is hard to follow your thinking. Instead of coming right out and saying something, you just quote scripture and expect it to speak for you.

I ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT CHRISTIANS START WITH THE BIBLE FIRST SEE MATT 6:33?
Yes, but you should explain what you think the verse is saying cuz I have noticed that you seem to think the verses mean something I don't.


THE POLICE ARE EMPOLYED BUY CEASER (THE GOVERMENTS) SO GIVE THEM THE RESPECT THEY DESERVE AS REPRESANTIVES OF THE STATE/GOVERMENT.
Right.


Basically this verse goes against your views. It is saying that God appoints the governments as authorities over us and give them the power to praise us or punish us (with the SWORD - e.g. weapons and violence when needed) and that the Government is God's minister and avenger.

NO HE -GOD- DOES NOT THAY ARE MAN MADE AS MANY OF THEM STAND AGINST CHRIRISTANITY ALSO SATAN OFFERS JESUS ALL THE KINDOMS OF THE WORLD SO THEY ARE UNDER SATANS POWER AS SATAN HIMSELF SAID:-
Barryrob, please re-read your verse. It specifically SAYS that they have their authority given to them by GOD, not Satan.

Romans 13:1-4 Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.

Specifically says it!


2 Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God;



those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves. 3 For those ruling are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you, then, want to have no fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad.


Luke 4:5-8
So he (DEVIL) brought him (JESUS) up and showed him (JESUS) all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time; 6 and the Devil said to him: "I (DEVIL) will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me (DEVIL) , and to whomever I (DEVIL) wish I (DEVIL) give it. 7 You, therefore, if you (JESUS) do an act of worship before me (DEVIL), it will all be yours." 8 In reply Jesus said to him: "It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’"

You are taking Satan's word on it? He is the king of liars. He did not have the authority to give Jesus anything. He is a liar.




It supports the idea that Police and Government are working for God, to praise the good and punish the evil. This would mean that it is OK to be a police officer and do God's will. Who better to carry out God's will in Government - a heathen or a Christian?

SOME OF THE THINGS THEY DO ARE GOOD BUT AS YOU ARE FULLY AWARE NOT ALL E.G THE LAWS THEY PASS RGARDING MORALS.
THE THINGS SOME POWERS DO TO CHRISTIAN IN SOME LANDS ARE VERY BAD, SO NOW ACCORDING TO YOU GOD APPOINTS POWERS THAT PERSECUTE & KILL CHRISTIANS, AND YOU SAY I'M WRONG?
God appoints the governments, but he doesn't force them to do his will. They are appointed to do so, but not all do it.

By your complaint, you just prove my point. Why should we let heathen's run our government? They will not follow what God has appointed them to do. That is why Christian's should work in government, to do God's will.



So do you agree it is OK for Government to act for God and punish those that do Evil? and to use a Sword (weapons)?

SOMTIMES YES SOMTIMES NO, IT DEPPENDS UPON WHAT THEY CONSIDER AN EVIL ACT IS AND WHAT GOD CONSIDER AN EVIL ACT IS!
What about punishing someone for murdering someone? What about protecting the innocent? Police officer's are there to protect the innocent and to lock up the guilty. A christian police officer will do a better job of doing God's will than a pagan or atheist Police Officer. So I think it is OK for a Christian to be a police officer.

I would not want to live in a world without police to protect us from criminals, would you? And if we need police officers, then it must be OK to be a police officer, and OK for a christian to be a police officer.

And they need weapons because the criminals have weapons. No good police officer wants to use their weapon, but if they had no weapons they would be unable to protect themselves and us.

Do you agree with me so far?

[barryrob]

Barry, watch those quote tags. You had all of your responses inside my quoted text.

A Yes, but you should explain what you think the verse is saying cuz I have noticed that you seem to think the verses mean something I don't.

B Right.

C Barryrob, please re-read your verse. It specifically SAYS that they have their authority given to them by GOD, not Satan.

Romans 13:1-4 Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.

Specifically says it!


2 Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God;

those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves. 3 For those ruling are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you, then, want to have no fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad.


D You are taking Satan's word on it? He is the king of liars. He did not have the authority to give Jesus anything. He is a liar.


E God appoints the governments, but he doesn't force them to do his will. They are appointed to do so, but not all do it.
By your complaint, you just prove my point. Why should we let heathen's run our government? They will not follow what God has appointed them to do. That is why Christian's should work in government, to do God's will.


Fa What about punishing someone for murdering someone? What about protecting the innocent? Police officer's are there to protect the innocent and to lock up the guilty. A christian police officer will do a better job of doing God's will than a pagan or atheist Police Officer. So I think it is OK for a Christian to be a police officer.

b I would not want to live in a world without police to protect us from criminals, would you? And if we need police officers, then it must be OK to be a police officer, and OK for a christian to be a police officer.

c And they need weapons because the criminals have weapons. No good police officer wants to use their weapon, but if they had no weapons they would be unable to protect themselves and us.

Do you agree with me so far?
A Ask me if you think we are at odds.

B OK


C "for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God."

All power(s) are relative to God as He is the supreme one and God allows them to exist as a creation or "stand placed" by man realative to God's power.



*** it-2 p. 1009 Sovereignty ***


Accordingly, as long as it is God’s will to permit man-made governments to rule, the apostle Paul’s injunction to Christians will apply: "Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God." The apostle then goes on to point out that when such governments act to punish one who does what is bad, the ‘superior authority’ or ruler (even though not a faithful worshiper of God) is acting indirectly as a minister of God in this particular capacity, expressing wrath upon the one practicing what is bad.—Rom 13:1-6.
As to such authorities’ being "placed in their relative positions by God," the Scriptures indicate that this does not mean that God formed these governments or that he backs them up. Rather, he has maneuvered them to suit his good purpose, with relation to his will concerning his servants in the earth. Moses said: "When the Most High gave the nations an inheritance, when he parted the sons of Adam from one another, he proceeded to fix the boundary of the peoples with regard for the number of the sons of Israel."—Deut 32:8.


D These words are inspired of God so they CANNOT BE WRONG!

Further Biblical texts that show Satan rules this earth therefore the Worldly Goverments on it:-

John 12:31 Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

John 14:30 I shall not speak much with YOU anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me,

Ephesians 2:2 in which YOU at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air [Satan], the spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience.

Revelation 12:9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

2 Corinthians 4:4 among whom [Satan*] the god of this system of things has [*who has] blinded the minds of the unbelievers [under Satan's control], that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.


E There maybe some situations that a Jehovah's Witness might serve inside the police force, this could be a matter of personal conscience, but we are not allowed to carry weapons:-

*** g95 9/22 pp. 13-14 Should I Learn Self-Defense? ***
Weapons—The Godly View
The threat of violence was real back in Jesus’ day. One of his most famous parables, commonly called the parable of the Good Samaritan, related an incident involving violent robbery. (Luke 10:30-35) When Jesus asked his disciples to equip themselves with swords, it was not for protection. In fact, it led to his stating the principle: "All those who take the sword will perish by the sword."—Matthew 26:51, 52; Luke 22:36-38.
True Christians, therefore, do not arm themselves so as to harm their fellowman. (Compare Isaiah 2:4.) They follow the Bible’s advice at Romans 12:18: "If possible, as far as it depends upon you, be peaceable with all men." Does this mean being defenseless? Not at all!


Fa Yes I agree they serve a very important service, thus God lets them exist for the time being, but also ref. the above


b True the world would be a lot worse, but ref. my other pionts.


c True the Police do, thus the need for God's Kingdom by Jesus Christ to take over total control of this Earth and remove all criminals during Armaggeddon forever, then there will be no need for a Police force as all will be at peace under the rule of The King of kings.

Just a few thoughts.
Do you think we might be satying from Christian participation in state warfare?
Barryrob

[Sparko]

C "for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God."

All power(s) are relative to God as He is the supreme one and God allows them to exist as a creation or "stand placed" by man realative to God's power.



*** it-2 p. 1009 Sovereignty ***


Accordingly, as long as it is God’s will to permit man-made governments to rule, the apostle Paul’s injunction to Christians will apply: "Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God." The apostle then goes on to point out that when such governments act to punish one who does what is bad, the ‘superior authority’ or ruler (even though not a faithful worshiper of God) is acting indirectly as a minister of God in this particular capacity, expressing wrath upon the one practicing what is bad.—Rom 13:1-6.
As to such authorities’ being "placed in their relative positions by God," the Scriptures indicate that this does not mean that God formed these governments or that he backs them up. Rather, he has maneuvered them to suit his good purpose, with relation to his will concerning his servants in the earth. Moses said: "When the Most High gave the nations an inheritance, when he parted the sons of Adam from one another, he proceeded to fix the boundary of the peoples with regard for the number of the sons of Israel."—Deut 32:8.

I can agree with this. I never meant to imply that the goverments were all placed there as Gods doing. There are obviously governments that go against everything God stands for, such as Hitler and his government.

But one of the functions of Government that God endorses is to be his instrument to punish the wicked and help the good. He allows Governments to carry out actions that he does not want private citizens to do.

For example, in the Old Testament, he said you shall not kill (murder), but he also gave the government of the hebrews instructions that they should give the death penalty to many crimes, including one of the 10 commandments (honor your Mother and Father. If not they were to be put to DEATH)

So, how could they put someone to death if they were not allowed to kill? It is because the admonation to not kill was to not kill illegally (murder) - but government sanctioned corporal punishment was OK, and actually required by God. The same with the army. God told them to go and kill whole villages. But this was not murder because it was sanctioned by God as a just action.

Today our Government still has that same sanction, as Paul mentions, to carry out justice. Which includes the death penalty when needed and even going to war to protect the innocent and to punish evil.


[QUOTE]
D These words are inspired of God so they CANNOT BE WRONG!

Barryrob, the bible is inspired for the authors to say the true word of God and write what God wants written. yes. But the bible also reports (truthfully!) what many people SAY in the bible, and even truthfully reports their LIES. Just because Satan says something, does not mean it is true. The bible only truly reports what Satan said. Other wise, you would have to say that Satan was telling the truth to Adam and Eve and did not deceive them, since the bible recorded his words.




Further Biblical texts that show Satan rules this earth therefore the Worldly Goverments on it:-

John 12:31 Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

John 14:30 I shall not speak much with YOU anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me,

Ephesians 2:2 in which YOU at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air [Satan], the spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience.

Revelation 12:9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

2 Corinthians 4:4 among whom [Satan*] the god of this system of things has [*who has] blinded the minds of the unbelievers [under Satan's control], that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.


I never said that Satan was not influential in this world, but he does not own the kingdoms of this world, he is just the said to be the "ruler" as in the king of sin. Sinful people belong to him. But Government is a God created institution, which can do good or evil.

E There maybe some situations that a Jehovah's Witness might serve inside the police force, this could be a matter of personal conscience, but we are not allowed to carry weapons:-

*** g95 9/22 pp. 13-14 Should I Learn Self-Defense? ***
Weapons—The Godly View
The threat of violence was real back in Jesus’ day. One of his most famous parables, commonly called the parable of the Good Samaritan, related an incident involving violent robbery. (Luke 10:30-35) When Jesus asked his disciples to equip themselves with swords, it was not for protection. In fact, it led to his stating the principle: "All those who take the sword will perish by the sword."—Matthew 26:51, 52; Luke 22:36-38.
True Christians, therefore, do not arm themselves so as to harm their fellowman. (Compare Isaiah 2:4.) They follow the Bible’s advice at Romans 12:18: "If possible, as far as it depends upon you, be peaceable with all men." Does this mean being defenseless? Not at all!

the key words are "as far as it depends on you" and "if possible" - God never says to lay down and let evil people to hurt other innocent people. If you see a criminal raping a woman, you should stop him. Police carry weapons only to protect themselves and other good citizens. They HAVE to carry them because the criminals carry them. So for them it is "not possible" to not carry weapons.

Fa Yes I agree they serve a very important service, thus God lets them exist for the time being, but also ref. the above
If God lets them exist and even condones what they do as his will to punish the wicked, then it is OK for Christians to work for the Government and to be police officers and even warriors. Or are you saying that God only gives his blessings for pagans to do this work for him? If the work is righteous and important, then it is OK for Christians to do it too. If not, then the job is not righteous and should not be done by anyone.



c True the Police do, thus the need for God's Kingdom by Jesus Christ to take over total control of this Earth and remove all criminals during Armaggeddon forever, then there will be no need for a Police force as all will be at peace under the rule of The King of kings.
Yes, someday there will be no more evil and no more need for police and courts or human government. But until that day comes, it is the job of every Christian to uphold God's will and not only love your neighbors, but to protect your neighbors and punish the wicked.


Just a few thoughts.
Do you think we might be satying from Christian participation in state warfare?
Barryrob
not sure what "satying" means.

[barryrob]

Sorry try 'straying' ooops, drrrrrr.
Barryrob

[Sparko]

well I was leading into Christian warfare, by starting with local government sanctioned enforcment, like Police and courts. The arguement for police is pretty much the same as for the army, but it is just easier to understand the need for police, since they effect our lived directly, where the army is pretty much something abstract on CNN to most people.

And Barryrob, I am not saying that Christians SHOULD become police as if it were God's commandment or something. I am just arguing that it is a personal decision and it is not condemned by God, since God says he uses the arm of the government to punish the wicked and minister to the good. Therfore if a Christian were to be a police officer and follow the will of God in doing what he commands, then it is OK for them to do so.

Personally, I could not be a police officer as I don't want to carry a weapon. But my brother, who is a Christian, is a police officer. He is one of the good influences in the police force and has gotten some bad cops fired for not following the law themselves, or treating people wrongly. So see, it is good that we have some Christian police officers.

[barryrob]

A
I can agree with this. I never meant to imply that the goverments were all placed there as Gods doing. There are obviously governments that go against everything God stands for, such as Hitler and his government.

But one of the functions of Government that God endorses is to be his instrument to punish the wicked and help the good. He allows Governments to carry out actions that he does not want private citizens to do.

For example, in the Old Testament, he said you shall not kill (murder), but he also gave the government of the hebrews instructions that they should give the death penalty to many crimes, including one of the 10 commandments (honor your Mother and Father. If not they were to be put to DEATH)

So, how could they put someone to death if they were not allowed to kill? It is because the admonation to not kill was to not kill illegally (murder) - but government sanctioned corporal punishment was OK, and actually required by God. The same with the army. God told them to go and kill whole villages. But this was not murder because it was sanctioned by God as a just action.

Today our Government still has that same sanction, as Paul mentions, to carry out justice. Which includes the death penalty when needed and even going to war to protect the innocent and to punish evil.


B
Barryrob, the bible is inspired for the authors to say the true word of God and write what God wants written. yes. But the bible also reports (truthfully!) what many people SAY in the bible, and even truthfully reports their LIES. Just because Satan says something, does not mean it is true. The bible only truly reports what Satan said. Other wise, you would have to say that Satan was telling the truth to Adam and Eve and did not deceive them, since the bible recorded his words.


I never said that Satan was not influential in this world, but he does not own the kingdoms of this world, he is just the said to be the "ruler" as in the king of sin. Sinful people belong to him. But Government is a God created institution, which can do good or evil.


C
a the key words are "as far as it depends on you" and "if possible" - God never says to lay down and let evil people to hurt other innocent people. If you see a criminal raping a woman, you should stop him.

b Police carry weapons only to protect themselves and other good citizens. They HAVE to carry them because the criminals carry them. So for them it is "not possible" to not carry weapons.
If God lets them exist and even condones what they do as his will to punish the wicked, then it is OK for Christians to work for the Government and to be police officers and even warriors. Or are you saying that God only gives his blessings for pagans to do this work for him? If the work is righteous and important, then it is OK for Christians to do it too. If not, then the job is not righteous and should not be done by anyone.


D
Yes, someday there will be no more evil and no more need for police and courts or human government. But until that day comes, it is the job of every Christian to uphold God's will and not only love your neighbors, but to protect your neighbors and punish the wicked.



not sure what "satying" means.
A
I can agree* with some of this, but as regards only the "evil" being punished in war that is not the case is it. For example Women & Children die, then we have frendly frie situations when they kill persons on thier own side, God cannot be aparty to this as it cannot be just can it? In a Just War ONLY the evil will die so no war can be Just on thie sole guide line.

*God sees the need for law & order (hence he allows goverments, police etc. to exist) but man cannot do it his way, they may get somthings right but when it goes wrong major problems ensue e.g. Iraq, I can seem good to ride the world of a tyrant but they have 'won' the war but are lossing the peace! I have no doubt somthing will be sorted in due time but how many more will die in the due time?


B
The Bible says that Christian are the bo "not part of the world" (John 15:19) why, because Satan must rule over it and its Goverments:-

Revelation 13:2 . .And the dragon gave to [the beast*] its power and its throne and great authority.

*World powers.

John 12:31 Now there is a judging of this world [Satan]; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.



C
a We would all help where ever we could and do our best, but that is not the issue here.

b We as Christian must not carry weapons etc. Let me give an example of why the police force could be a danger to us:-





*** yb01 p. 168 Argentina ***


As we were leaving, we saw behind us the police and the army arriving to fulfill the order to close the Kingdom Hall and confiscate the literature. However, they could carry out only the first part of their commission, since the only books left in the hall were the ones in the library."

*** w90 9/1 p. 13 Trusting in Jehovah Brings Happiness ***
Years Under Ban
During the war hysteria of 1940, the work of Jehovah’s Witnesses was put under ban. What a shock! Government-sponsored radio announcements ordered us to hand over to the police our literature, our congregation records, and our Kingdom Hall keys. Realizing the urgency of the situation, I went around to the congregations and urged them to hide their literature and records. The brothers were encouraged to meet in private homes, at a different home each week. In time the congregations reinstituted the door-to-door ministry, using only the Bible. This proved to be a blessing, as all of us learned to use our Bibles better.

*** g97 3/22 p. 14 Jehovah’s Witnesses Vindicated in Greece ***
On March 19, 1991, the Supreme Court dismissed the appeal and upheld the conviction. Over two years later, on September 20, 1993, when the Supreme Court decision was announced, the Kingdom Hall was sealed by the police. As revealed by a police document, the Orthodox Church of Crete was behind this action.
This situation came about because certain laws, passed in 1938 with the intention of restricting religious freedom, are still in force in Greece. They stipulate that if an individual wishes to operate a place of worship, a permit must be obtained from the Ministry of Education and Religious Affairs and also from the local bishop of the Orthodox Church. For several decades, these anachronistic laws have caused many difficulties for Jehovah’s Witnesses.

*** g97 6/8 p. 22 Singapore—Asia’s Tarnished Jewel ***
Jehovah’s Witnesses Banned
All of this changed on January 12, 1972. An expulsion order was issued under the Government Banishment Act, chapter 109, ordering Christian missionary Norman David Bellotti and his wife, Gladys, 23-year residents of Singapore, to leave the country. This was quickly followed by an order deregistering the Singapore Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Within hours the Kingdom Hall was seized by police who smashed their way through the front door. Following almost immediately was an official ban on all literature of the Watch Tower Society. Thus began a period of suppression of Jehovah’s Witnesses.





Notice in alll the above the Police or Army where used by the state to interfere with our (and others) worship and peraching etc. so how could we become member of an institution that maybe ordered to act in such a way to impinge on religious freedoms not only of our but that of others, which we could not do, so how could anyone how claims to be a Christian be part of such a body that can do or maybe asked do this?


Our brothers could not be aparty to the stoping of the worship of other religious groups let much less thier own brothers as this could happen at any time anywhere!

For example at this time our brother have taken the Russian Authorites to the Europen Court of Human Rights for forcably entering a meeting of our blind brothers and sisters and forcably shuting the meetings down in one of our Halls, just a a current example?

D
OK I can agree with this as we would and do use the Laws for that reason.

Barryrob

[kofh2u]

On war. The Bibles view of those who go to war:-


1 John 3:10-12 The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message which YOU have heard from [the] beginning, that we should have love for one another; 12 not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for the sake of what did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother [were] righteous.

Barryrob


Against war... but willing to die for peace. No greater love than that? If evil men battle while self righteous men do nothing... where then ARE the Christian Soldiers marching AS tho' to war?


Isa. 60:1 Arise, (O'Israel), shine; for thy enlightenment is come, and
the glory of the LORD, (the meaning of Hebrew scripture), is risen upon thee.

Isa. 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth (for 1000 years), and (a Dark Age), the gross darkness of the people: but the LORD, (the Word), shall arise upon thee thereafter, and his glory shall be seen in the enlightenment upon thee.

Isa. 60:3 And the Gentiles (of Christianity) shall come to thy
enlightenment (O'Israel), and kings (of political rule) to the brightness of thy (nation's) rising.

Isa. 60:4 Lift up thine eyes you people of Israel round about, and
see: all, (the two billion Christian), they gather themselves together,
they come to thee (in the Promised Land): thy sons (of the Diaspora) shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side (from 1948 forever).

Isa. 60:5 Then, thereafter, thou shalt see (these hoards of Christianity, and ye O'Israel), flow together (with them), and thine
heart shall fear (the truth of Christ in your conversion), and be enlarged (in understanding of scripture); because the abundance of the sea (of unconscious realizations) shall be converted unto thee, the
forces of the Gentiles, (now Christians, two billions in number), shall come unto thee.

Isa. 60:6 The multitude of (their) camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah (Jordan of today) ; all they from Sheba shall come (to pilgrimage in the Holy Land): they shall bring gold and incense (and economic prosperity); and they shall show forth the praises of the LORD.

[kofh2u]

A. Matthew 22:21 "Pay back, therefore, Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God." Try to imagind what this world would be like with out them. I dred to think.


B.No Christian can take an occupation where they have to carry weapons, maybe with the exception, ia a brother is a farmer or pest control officer (Air Rifle) for the eradication of vermin or something along those lines.



C. The following texts apply:-

Romans 13:5-7 There is therefore compelling reason for YOU people to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of [YOUR] conscience. 6 For that is why YOU are also paying taxes; for they are God’s public servants constantly serving this very purpose. 7 Render to all their dues, to him who [calls for] the tax, the tax; to him who [calls for] the tribute, the tribute; to him who [calls for] fear, such fear; to him who [calls for] honor, such honor.


Romans 13:1-4 Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves. 3 For those ruling are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you, then, want to have no fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad.

But the overriding principle is at Acts 5:29 “In answer Peter and the [other] apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.” So where there is any conflicting ideas, God comes first.



Barryrob



It is noble to not strike others, but it is Godly to lay down as a martyr if need be to stop violence.

The Holy Spirit resides in the body of the Church, and violence is nevertheless tolerated in the Promised Land.

Zech. 8:15 So again have I thought in these days to do well unto Jerusalem and to the house of Judah: fear ye not.

Zech. 8:16 These are the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in
your gates:

[barryrob]

It is noble to not strike others, but it is Godly to lay down as a martyr if need be to stop violence.

The Holy Spirit resides in the body of the Church, and violence is nevertheless tolerated in the Promised Land.

Zech. 8:15 So again have I thought in these days to do well unto Jerusalem and to the house of Judah: fear ye not.

Zech. 8:16 These are the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in
your gates:
We are Christians not Jews so subject to what Christ says and not the O.T. Law etc.:-



Matthew 5:43-48
"YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; 45 that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. 46 For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? 48 YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect.

We MUST do good to ALL no matter who or what they are like God as his son Jesus died for them setting us the role model to follow:-

1 Peter 2:21
In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely.

So when on earth did he take to arms against his foes?
Was he not prepaired to die for them?
As he was dying did he not ask his Father to forgive them?
So what example did he set for us to follow?

The early Christians had the right idea and set the right pattern:-

"In his early writings, Tretullian obviously does not challenge the moral legitimacy of military activity. . . . Later, Tertullain was to express strong opposition to military service. In his On Idolatry, he writes that this is inherently idolatrous: "One soul cannot be due to two masters, God and Caesar." He concludes that "in disarming Peter." the Lord "unbelted every solder."*-'Christian Ethics' by J. Phillip Wogaman page 44

*John 18:10-11 "Then Simon Peter, as he had a sword, drew it and struck the slave of the high priest and cut his right ear off. The name of the slave was Malchus. Jesus, however, said to Peter: "Put the sword into [its] sheath"

and at Matthew 26:52 "Then Jesus said to him: "Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword"

also at Luke 22:51 "But in reply Jesus said: "LET it go as far as this." And he touched the ear and healed him.

So if Jesus said that they should not fight for him as thier Leader and Master (Matt 23:10; Col 3:24) how could or can Christian fight for anyone else?

Barryrob

[barryrob]

Against war... but willing to die for peace. No greater love than that? If evil men battle while self righteous men do nothing... where then ARE the Christian Soldiers marching AS tho' to war?


Isa. 60:1 Arise, (O'Israel), shine; for thy enlightenment is come, and
the glory of the LORD, (the meaning of Hebrew scripture), is risen upon thee.

Isa. 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth (for 1000 years), and (a Dark Age), the gross darkness of the people: but the LORD, (the Word), shall arise upon thee thereafter, and his glory shall be seen in the enlightenment upon thee.

Isa. 60:3 And the Gentiles (of Christianity) shall come to thy
enlightenment (O'Israel), and kings (of political rule) to the brightness of thy (nation's) rising.

Isa. 60:4 Lift up thine eyes you people of Israel round about, and
see: all, (the two billion Christian), they gather themselves together,
they come to thee (in the Promised Land): thy sons (of the Diaspora) shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side (from 1948 forever).

Isa. 60:5 Then, thereafter, thou shalt see (these hoards of Christianity, and ye O'Israel), flow together (with them), and thine
heart shall fear (the truth of Christ in your conversion), and be enlarged (in understanding of scripture); because the abundance of the sea (of unconscious realizations) shall be converted unto thee, the
forces of the Gentiles, (now Christians, two billions in number), shall come unto thee.

Isa. 60:6 The multitude of (their) camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah (Jordan of today) ; all they from Sheba shall come (to pilgrimage in the Holy Land): they shall bring gold and incense (and economic prosperity); and they shall show forth the praises of the LORD.
A few more thoughts:-

Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses refuse to join or be conscripted into any military force world wide not primarily because we are pacifistic but because we take a neutral regarding the politics of this world (we do not vote in elections etc.), as Jesus Christ said:-



John 15:19 If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, . . .



John 17:16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.



John 18:36 Jesus answered: “My kingdom is no part of this world.



Thus we do not support or take a stand against worldly political activities or warfare, as we remain neutral to all, why?



Our only allegiances are 1st to out God Jehovah:-



Acts 5:29 In answer Peter and the [other] apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.



And 2nd to his appointed King our leader:-



Revelation 12:10 “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God* and the authority of his Christ,. . .

*Jehovah



Matthew 23:10 Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for YOUR Leader is one, the Christ.





The law that God and Jesus Christ said for Christians to follow is:-



Matthew 5:43-48 “YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; 45 that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. 46 For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? 48 YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect.



Matthew 22:37-39 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’



In connection with the above the Watchtower Magazine made this comment:-




Watchtower 1998 12/1 p. 10 Hated for Their Faith
The Early Christians—Hated by Whom?

12 It is clear from Jesus’ teachings that he intended for his disciples to have a balanced view of non-Christians. On the one hand, he said that his followers would be separate from the world—that is, they would shun attitudes and conduct that were in conflict with Jehovah’s righteous ways. They would remain neutral in matters of war and politics. (John 17:14, 16) On the other hand, far from preaching contempt for non-Christians, Jesus told his followers to ‘love their enemies.’ (Matthew 5:44) The apostle Paul urged Christians: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.” (Romans 12:20) He also told Christians to “work what is good toward all.”—Galatians 6:10.”



Barryrob

[k4cym]

Grace and peace to you all in Christ,

This thread on war and law enforcement is a very difficult subject. It deals with the conscience and has a strong root in love.

We are living in a wicked and perverse age, even things that are good and right in God's eyes have been twisted to please the sinful lust.

My thoughts on this subject are given with great concern for my brother's and sister's conscience for one may think eating meat sacrificed to idols is wrong while another may see no problem either way they serve the Lord who is the one governing their lives.

I would like to read the context on loving our enemies.

Mat.5:38-48 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

In this context I see daily personal relationships in how we should be towards one another in our daily contacts.

Being a true Christian in this present evil age will be like a fish swimming up stream. The god of the world has caused such confusion within the true faith that it has caused much bitterness among not only the believers but the unbelievers as well.

When God's word speaks of loving our enemies I don't believe we are to apply this to an outward enemy but rather to an inward attitude of the mind as the Jews had towards the Samaritans. God does not want us carrying an attitude of hate, bitterness towards others, prejudice and the such. Someone can be my enemy and not even know it, why? Because it's an attitude of my heart. God says if we want to be able to be His children we can't have this in our lives.

If someone is called into police work, which it is a calling because they are referred to a ministers, they are professionals. To be a professional means they don't or at least shouldn't carry the personal attitude of hate, bitterness and prejudice towards any of those they deal with. The police officer can do his job with a clear conscience before God.

There is a time when God calls us not to respond to evil when it has to do with the gospel. The gospel is the higher work of God. When the men were about to grab Jesus, Peter cut an ear off one of the men. Jesus responded against Peter's actions because it was God's will that He go to the cross. Another time we see Jesus chasing people out of God's house of prayer with a whip because what the peopler were doing inside the house of prayer was not according to God's will.

At the time the apostles where called, Jesus knew they would have a difficult time spreading the gospel. Jesus told them there would be a time not to have a sword but He also said that there would come a time when they would need a sword so they should buy one. We are not to resist evil when it comes to the gospel and God's will but to allow someone to rape, murder and steal outside of God's will should and need to be dealt with by the authority that God has set up to do such a work. We as common people are not to take revenge, an eye for and eye, because we are not professionals that are trained not to have mental attitude sins of hate, bitterness or prejudice towards those they correct and or punish for their evil as God's ministers of wrath.

Regarding war, I would be very cautious because of man's motive for going to war and the fact that many innocent people get killed in war and that is a big problem with God. He wouldn't even destroy Sodom and Gomorrha if there was even one righteous man.

There is so much more to say but for time and space I'll stop here.

Many blessings to you all,
John

[barryrob]

Grace and peace to you all in Christ,

This thread on war and law enforcement is a very difficult subject. It deals with the conscience and has a strong root in love.

We are living in a wicked and perverse age, even things that are good and right in God's eyes have been twisted to please the sinful lust.

My thoughts on this subject are given with great concern for my brother's and sister's conscience for one may think eating meat sacrificed to idols is wrong while another may see no problem either way they serve the Lord who is the one governing their lives.

I would like to read the context on loving our enemies.

Mat.5:38-48 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

In this context I see daily personal relationships in how we should be towards one another in our daily contacts.

Being a true Christian in this present evil age will be like a fish swimming up stream. The god of the world has caused such confusion within the true faith that it has caused much bitterness among not only the believers but the unbelievers as well.

When God's word speaks of loving our enemies I don't believe we are to apply this to an outward enemy but rather to an inward attitude of the mind as the Jews had towards the Samaritans. God does not want us carrying an attitude of hate, bitterness towards others, prejudice and the such. Someone can be my enemy and not even know it, why? Because it's an attitude of my heart. God says if we want to be able to be His children we can't have this in our lives.

If someone is called into police work, which it is a calling because they are referred to a ministers, they are professionals. To be a professional means they don't or at least shouldn't carry the personal attitude of hate, bitterness and prejudice towards any of those they deal with. The police officer can do his job with a clear conscience before God.

There is a time when God calls us not to respond to evil when it has to do with the gospel. The gospel is the higher work of God. When the men were about to grab Jesus, Peter cut an ear off one of the men. Jesus responded against Peter's actions because it was God's will that He go to the cross. Another time we see Jesus chasing people out of God's house of prayer with a whip because what the peopler were doing inside the house of prayer was not according to God's will.

At the time the apostles where called, Jesus knew they would have a difficult time spreading the gospel. Jesus told them there would be a time not to have a sword but He also said that there would come a time when they would need a sword so they should buy one. We are not to resist evil when it comes to the gospel and God's will but to allow someone to rape, murder and steal outside of God's will should and need to be dealt with by the authority that God has set up to do such a work. We as common people are not to take revenge, an eye for and eye, because we are not professionals that are trained not to have mental attitude sins of hate, bitterness or prejudice towards those they correct and or punish for their evil as God's ministers of wrath.

Regarding war, I would be very cautious because of man's motive for going to war and the fact that many innocent people get killed in war and that is a big problem with God. He wouldn't even destroy Sodom and Gomorrha if there was even one righteous man.

There is so much more to say but for time and space I'll stop here.

Many blessings to you all,
JohnI think you make some good pints as we do live in the worst time in human history because of what humans have do to each other and this world (2 Tim 3:1-5).

But I see this issue from this angle, it is an issue of Soverginty God's or Man's!

God has said:-

Romans 12:19-21
Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah." But, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head." Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.

As hard as it may seem this text takes away the right for Christians to deal out retribution as God says that is his exclucive right not ours, why? Another text will shed light on this from:-

Daniel 2:44
"And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;


God here says that all other rulerships/goverments except His Own He will remove, and we can see why just by watching the TV News. Even if they may seem to be good intentioned DO THEY STAND FOR RULE EXCLUCIVLY BY GOD? I think we can agree that they fail here, thus they must go, thus God says:-

Acts 5:29
We must obey God as ruler rather than men

even if these men seem good intentioned from our view they may not be from God's View so we must stand by what God says and let him deal with all matters His way and in His time as we are in the "Last Days" running down to him taking full control as Jesus said:-

Matthew 6:10
Let your kingdom* come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth**.

God Kingdom by His King Jesus.
**Repaying "vengance" which is only his by Divine Right in King Jesus' hands and NOT MANS!

If we do not do this do we not then put ourselve in God's Place and take over control of human affars which we have no rights to do (as shown by Adam & Eve) under Christ Kingship.
Barryrob

[Sparko]

As far as vengence, Barryrob, I agree. We are not to take revenge on others.

But Policing is not about revenge, it is about meting out justice. When someone breaks a law, to capture and punish that person is no vengence, but carrying out justice and protecting the innocent. And police do it as an instrument of Government as approved of by God. It is not something personal. Without good police, evil would be much worse in this world. I thank God for police and being able to live in a country where we can be free and not afraid of criminals controlling our lives by fear and intimidation.

[k4cym]

I think you make some good pints as we do live in the worst time in human history because of what humans have do to each other and this world (2 Tim 3:1-5).

But I see this issue from this angle, it is an issue of Soverginty God's or Man's!

God has said:-

Romans 12:19-21
Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah." But, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head." Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.

As hard as it may seem this text takes away the right for Christians to deal out retribution as God says that is his exclucive right not ours, why? Another text will shed light on this from:-

Daniel 2:44
"And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;


God here says that all other rulerships/goverments except His Own He will remove, and we can see why just by watching the TV News. Even if they may seem to be good intentioned DO THEY STAND FOR RULE EXCLUCIVLY BY GOD? I think we can agree that they fail here, thus they must go, thus God says:-

Acts 5:29
We must obey God as ruler rather than men

even if these men seem good intentioned from our view they may not be from God's View so we must stand by what God says and let him deal with all matters His way and in His time as we are in the "Last Days" running down to him taking full control as Jesus said:-

Matthew 6:10
Let your kingdom* come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth**.

God Kingdom by His King Jesus.
**Repaying "vengance" which is only his by Divine Right in King Jesus' hands and NOT MANS!

If we do not do this do we not then put ourselve in God's Place and take over control of human affars which we have no rights to do (as shown by Adam & Eve) under Christ Kingship.
Barryrob

Hi Barryrob,

I think one of our problems with understanding God's wrath is that we think it only refers to the end of time judgment of the wicked. God has always used man and angel throughout time to bring about His will. We seem to think that just because a man or woman is carrying out God's will it takes away from God's vengeance and make it ours. I don't believe this is true.

God has always called men, women and angel to become vessels used for His good will in day to day living.

Romans 13:4 for he is GOD'S SERVANT for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.

Romans 13:6 For this cause ye pay tribute also; for they are MINISTERS OF GOD'S SERVICE, attending continually upon this very thing.

One of the problems is that there are times where God's authority is corrupted because of lack of obedience to God's will. We find this throughout the bible where men in position of authority have been corrupted and have perverted God's will for reasons of personal gain, pride or personal agenda (man's will), we also find God dealing with them harshly. This is why at the end God will eliminate all kingdoms once and for all and establish His everlasting kingdom with Christ over all...Amen to that.

Many blessings,
John

[barryrob]

Hi Barryrob,

I think one of our problems with understanding God's wrath is that we think it only refers to the end of time judgment of the wicked. God has always used man and angel throughout time to bring about His will. We seem to think that just because a man or woman is carrying out God's will it takes away from God's vengeance and make it ours. I don't believe this is true.

God has always called men, women and angel to become vessels used for His good will in day to day living.

Romans 13:4 for he is GOD'S SERVANT for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.

Romans 13:6 For this cause ye pay tribute also; for they are MINISTERS OF GOD'S SERVICE, attending continually upon this very thing.

One of the problems is that there are times where God's authority is corrupted because of lack of obedience to God's will. We find this throughout the bible where men in position of authority have been corrupted and have perverted God's will for reasons of personal gain, pride or personal agenda (man's will), we also find God dealing with them harshly. This is why at the end God will eliminate all kingdoms once and for all and establish His everlasting kingdom with Christ over all...Amen to that.

Many blessings,
JohnI can go with this:-

Romans 13:4 for he is GOD'S SERVANT for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.

Romans 13:6 For this cause ye pay tribute also; for they are MINISTERS OF GOD'S SERVICE, attending continually upon this very thing.

to a limited degree for this reason its an issue of whose rule has the ultimate in a Christians life? Say and where do we stand on the issues of how mush de the earthly rulers rule over CHRISTIANS. For example when a person joins the armed forces they take a oath of allegiance, here is the British one:-

"I . . . . . . . Swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elisabeth the Second, Her Heirs and Successors and that I will as in duty bound honesty and faithfully defend Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors in Person, Crown and Dignity against all enemies and will observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors and of the Generals and Officers set over me."

How does this part of the above oath "true allegiance to Her majesty Queen Elizabeth the second" as the leader of the British people with what Jesus said at:-

Matthew 23:10 "Your [Christians] Leader is ONE, the Christ."

Did not Jesus also say that Christians:-

Matthew 6:24 "No one can slave for two masters"

I know it is relating to money but how much more should that principle apply to who tells us as Christians what and what not to do or how to act! Saying a oath to serve the head of state and obey him or her as to obey them is in conflict with our oath to serve Christ as our "ONE Leader" as with the early Christians:-

"When the young man had finished with the recruiting board he was promoted to the title of trio, 'recruit' and enjoyed an intermediate status between a civilian and a soldier ... he swore by the gods and the emperor to serve well. Normally this ceremony occurred four months after the probatio ... This commitment, called iusiurandum or sometimes sacramentum, had a religious aspect, and in consequence some Christians believed that the oath-sacrmentum was incompatible with the baptism-sacramentum".-The Imperial Roman Army by Yann Le Bohec p.74

How can one be totally whole souled in serving God when one has made another oath to serve some human ruler who will lay claim to a Christians total obeisance?

Barryrob

[k4cym]

I can go with this:-

Romans 13:4 for he is GOD'S SERVANT for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.

Romans 13:6 For this cause ye pay tribute also; for they are MINISTERS OF GOD'S SERVICE, attending continually upon this very thing.

to a limited degree for this reason its an issue of whose rule has the ultimate in a Christians life? Say and where do we stand on the issues of how mush de the earthly rulers rule over CHRISTIANS. For example when a person joins the armed forces they take a oath of allegiance, here is the British one:-

"I . . . . . . . Swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elisabeth the Second, Her Heirs and Successors and that I will as in duty bound honesty and faithfully defend Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors in Person, Crown and Dignity against all enemies and will observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors and of the Generals and Officers set over me."

How does this part of the above oath "true allegiance to Her majesty Queen Elizabeth the second" as the leader of the British people with what Jesus said at:-

Matthew 23:10 "Your [Christians] Leader is ONE, the Christ."

Did not Jesus also say that Christians:-

Matthew 6:24 "No one can slave for two masters"

I know it is relating to money but how much more should that principle apply to who tells us as Christians what and what not to do or how to act! Saying a oath to serve the head of state and obey him or her as to obey them is in conflict with our oath to serve Christ as our "ONE Leader" as with the early Christians:-

"When the young man had finished with the recruiting board he was promoted to the title of trio, 'recruit' and enjoyed an intermediate status between a civilian and a soldier ... he swore by the gods and the emperor to serve well. Normally this ceremony occurred four months after the probatio ... This commitment, called iusiurandum or sometimes sacramentum, had a religious aspect, and in consequence some Christians believed that the oath-sacrmentum was incompatible with the baptism-sacramentum".-The Imperial Roman Army by Yann Le Bohec p.74

How can one be totally whole souled in serving God when one has made another oath to serve some human ruler who will lay claim to a Christians total obeisance?

Barryrob

I can see your point. I too have a problem with some of these oaths, they almost seem cultish. Even in some private organization such as the Free Mason, Lions Club and the such we find cultish oaths. If I feel convicted in what I'm doing then It's probably against God.

1 John 3:19-21 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

I totally agree with the command to love our enemies but I think with all these other verses that speak of God's ministers of wrath I think we have to understand that there must be an understanding that God does use men and woman as well as angels to bring about His will.

I myself am a police detective and have been in law enforcement for approx. 25 years now. I can say with a clear conscience that I don't carry any enemies in my own heart. I can't attest for others and how they feel about me, there are people who hate police just because they're police.

I think to take the command to love our enemies and blanket all situations with it will cause us to miss some other truths that we need to understand about God's calling to men and women to be His ministers in keeping evil in somewhat control.

If I take what God says about loving our enemies to mean I can't even defend myself or my family then God must be saying that I can hurt and kill my own family because He tells me to hate them.

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

I think we have to study these things out to get a clear picture of what God wants and expects of us. I do believe that we should love our enemies for the sake of the gospel but that does not mean that we let people rape or kill our wives and children for their sick and perverted personal gratification.

I pray for understanding I these areas, for my heart is to do our Father's will. If it weren't for verses such as Rom. 13:1-7 I would have gotten out of law enforcement a long time ago.

Many blessing to you Brother Barryrob,
John

[barryrob]

I can see your point. I too have a problem with some of these oaths, they almost seem cultish. Even in some private organization such as the Free Mason, Lions Club and the such we find cultish oaths. If I feel convicted in what I'm doing then It's probably against God.

1 John 3:19-21 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

I totally agree with the command to love our enemies but I think with all these other verses that speak of God's ministers of wrath I think we have to understand that there must be an understanding that God does use men and woman as well as angels to bring about His will.

I myself am a police detective and have been in law enforcement for approx. 25 years now. I can say with a clear conscience that I don't carry any enemies in my own heart. I can't attest for others and how they feel about me, there are people who hate police just because they're police.

I think to take the command to love our enemies and blanket all situations with it will cause us to miss some other truths that we need to understand about God's calling to men and women to be His ministers in keeping evil in somewhat control.

If I take what God says about loving our enemies to mean I can't even defend myself or my family then God must be saying that I can hurt and kill my own family because He tells me to hate them.

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

I think we have to study these things out to get a clear picture of what God wants and expects of us. I do believe that we should love our enemies for the sake of the gospel but that does not mean that we let people rape or kill our wives and children for their sick and perverted personal gratification.

I pray for understanding I these areas, for my heart is to do our Father's will. If it weren't for verses such as Rom. 13:1-7 I would have gotten out of law enforcement a long time ago.

Many blessing to you Brother Barryrob,
JohnYour comment:-

"If I take what God says about loving our enemies to mean I can't even defend myself or my family then God must be saying that I can hurt and kill my own family because He tells me to hate them.

Here is an area that seems hard to apply love of enemy but it does not mean that we do not protect our families on a one to one bases:-

"Jesus had given his disciples counsel: "You heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ However, I say to you: Do not resist him that is wicked; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him." (Matthew 5:38, 39) Here Jesus was not teaching pacifism or denying the right of self-defense* from bodily harm, but he was teaching that a Christian does not need to pay back blow for blow, retaliating, taking vengeance. He was inculcating the principle of avoiding quarrels by not replying or reacting in kind. A slap on the cheek is not intended to injure physically but only to insult or to provoke into a fight. Jesus did not say that if someone strikes a Christian on the jaw, he should get up off the floor and hold the other side of his face for a target. What Jesus was saying was that if anyone tried to provoke a Christian into a fight or argument by either slapping him with an open hand or stinging him with insulting words, it would be wrong to retaliate. This is in harmony with the statements of the apostles, giving further emphasis to this principle.—Romans 12:17-21; 1 Peter 3:9."-‘Insight on the Scriptures’ Vol. 1 p.429 Published by Jehovah’s Witnesses

*or your family

We have to separate the real issue which is THE SUPPORT FOR STATE SPONSORED WARFARE FOR THE SAKE OF NATIONALISM OR THE IMPOSITION OF ANY GIVEN POLITICAL REGIME UPON THAT OF ANOTHER NATION BY FORCE OF ARMS FOR OR IN NATIONAL INTERESTS WHAT EVER THEY MAY BE.

The issue is do we obey Caesar (the state) and go and kill other human beings upon the command of another human in or for what he/they consider to be right and against whom they consider to be a enemy (thus deciding for me/you who your enemy is) when Jesus Commands to Love them?



What is "Nationalism?

"Nnationalism n. 1 patriotic feeling, principles, etc. 2 policy of national independence. nationalist n. & adj. nationalistic adj."

"Patriot n. person devoted to and ready to defend his or her country. patriotic adj. patriotically adv. patriotism n. [Greek patris fatherland]."

Christian are a New Nation:-

1 Peter 2:9-10

But YOU are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies" of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light. For YOU were once not a people, but are now God’s people; YOU were those who had not been shown mercy, but are now those who have been shown mercy.

Christian now belong to God as he bought them with the Blood of Jesus so there fore we constitute a people with Laws and heritage but now under God not men. So to whom do we show patriotic allegiance? to the Head of our Nation Jesus who twice refused earthy rulership once at Matthew 4:5-8 by the Devil and again at John 6:15 by the people herein setting the example for followers as Christians are drawn out (Ekklesia, drawn out) from the world under Satan's control to be under the direct Leadership and Command (Matt 28:18-20) of God's King Christ Jesus where our sole loyalty and patrioctic feeling lie:-

1 Timothy 1:1

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus under command* of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus, our hope

*as all Christians are.

Added to this we have a sobering comment at:-

1 John 3:14-15

He who does not love remains in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother is a manslayer, and YOU know that no manslayer has everlasting life remaining in him.

If we hate a fellow Christian we are a "manslayer" as in our heart we have no love for that person. But then the text opens it up in a general sense they "no manslayer" has life from God so herein is the point to kill other humans is not to love ones enemy which it against Gods direct Command that we must obey and if we take life we are "a manslayer" of whom God says will not live so do we do as was said at:-

Acts 5:29

"We must obey God as ruler rather than men.

and live or not and die as being disobedient towards God, which would put us on the side of the Devil as he is ultimately behind all disobedience against God!

Which will we do?

Barryrob

[k4cym]

Your comment:-

"If I take what God says about loving our enemies to mean I can't even defend myself or my family then God must be saying that I can hurt and kill my own family because He tells me to hate them.

Here is an area that seems hard to apply love of enemy but it does not mean that we do not protect our families on a one to one bases:-

"Jesus had given his disciples counsel: "You heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ However, I say to you: Do not resist him that is wicked; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him." (Matthew 5:38, 39) Here Jesus was not teaching pacifism or denying the right of self-defense* from bodily harm, but he was teaching that a Christian does not need to pay back blow for blow, retaliating, taking vengeance. He was inculcating the principle of avoiding quarrels by not replying or reacting in kind. A slap on the cheek is not intended to injure physically but only to insult or to provoke into a fight. Jesus did not say that if someone strikes a Christian on the jaw, he should get up off the floor and hold the other side of his face for a target. What Jesus was saying was that if anyone tried to provoke a Christian into a fight or argument by either slapping him with an open hand or stinging him with insulting words, it would be wrong to retaliate. This is in harmony with the statements of the apostles, giving further emphasis to this principle.—Romans 12:17-21; 1 Peter 3:9."-‘Insight on the Scriptures’ Vol. 1 p.429 Published by Jehovah’s Witnesses

*or your family

We have to separate the real issue which is THE SUPPORT FOR STATE SPONSORED WARFARE FOR THE SAKE OF NATIONALISM OR THE IMPOSITION OF ANY GIVEN POLITICAL REGIME UPON THAT OF ANOTHER NATION BY FORCE OF ARMS FOR OR IN NATIONAL INTERESTS WHAT EVER THEY MAY BE.

The issue is do we obey Caesar (the state) and go and kill other human beings upon the command of another human in or for what he/they consider to be right and against whom they consider to be a enemy (thus deciding for me/you who your enemy is) when Jesus Commands to Love them?



What is "Nationalism?

"Nnationalism n. 1 patriotic feeling, principles, etc. 2 policy of national independence. nationalist n. & adj. nationalistic adj."

"Patriot n. person devoted to and ready to defend his or her country. patriotic adj. patriotically adv. patriotism n. [Greek patris fatherland]."

Christian are a New Nation:-

1 Peter 2:9-10

But YOU are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies" of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light. For YOU were once not a people, but are now God’s people; YOU were those who had not been shown mercy, but are now those who have been shown mercy.

Christian now belong to God as he bought them with the Blood of Jesus so there fore we constitute a people with Laws and heritage but now under God not men. So to whom do we show patriotic allegiance? to the Head of our Nation Jesus who twice refused earthy rulership once at Matthew 4:5-8 by the Devil and again at John 6:15 by the people herein setting the example for followers as Christians are drawn out (Ekklesia, drawn out) from the world under Satan's control to be under the direct Leadership and Command (Matt 28:18-20) of God's King Christ Jesus where our sole loyalty and patrioctic feeling lie:-

1 Timothy 1:1

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus under command* of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus, our hope

*as all Christians are.

Added to this we have a sobering comment at:-

1 John 3:14-15

He who does not love remains in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother is a manslayer, and YOU know that no manslayer has everlasting life remaining in him.

If we hate a fellow Christian we are a "manslayer" as in our heart we have no love for that person. But then the text opens it up in a general sense they "no manslayer" has life from God so herein is the point to kill other humans is not to love ones enemy which it against Gods direct Command that we must obey and if we take life we are "a manslayer" of whom God says will not live so do we do as was said at:-

Acts 5:29

"We must obey God as ruler rather than men.

and live or not and die as being disobedient towards God, which would put us on the side of the Devil as he is ultimately behind all disobedience against God!

Which will we do?

Barryrob

Barryrob,

I agree with everything you say. Someone is not our enemy just because someone over us tells they are. I believe the enemy that God is concerned with is the enemy attitude we carry towards another person.

God says that if we hate our brother we have murdered, hate is an inward thing.

Eternal life is an inward thing in the same way sin is an inward thing. The two can't have fellowship (light and darkness).

The law says, "Thu shall not kill," but I believe that the taking of another life to protect someone else is of the higher calling of the law which is the spirit of it, love. Either way it's all part of an evil and perverse age we live in. We should not even have to make these kind of choices, there will come a time when we won't have to any longer until then we are to keep our conscience clear before the Lord.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the purpose of the law is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,

Many blessings,
John

[barryrob]

Barryrob,

I agree with everything you say. Someone is not our enemy just because someone over us tells they are. I believe the enemy that God is concerned with is the enemy attitude we carry towards another person.

God says that if we hate our brother we have murdered, hate is an inward thing.

Eternal life is an inward thing in the same way sin is an inward thing. The two can't have fellowship (light and darkness).

The law says, "Thu shall not kill," but I believe that the taking of another life to protect someone else is of the higher calling of the law which is the spirit of it, love. Either way it's all part of an evil and perverse age we live in. We should not even have to make these kind of choices, there will come a time when we won't have to any longer until then we are to keep our conscience clear before the Lord.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the purpose of the law is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,

Many blessings,
JohnHi John



It not a matter of what we think as puney men surely its God's view that really matters, is that not so?


So I think you might have missed the import of 1 John 3:15 as the “manslayer” here is paralled with “Cain” how killed in brother under the influence of the “wicked one” who himself is called a manslayer or muderer at John 8:44 who in effect killed all mankind. So can a Christian follow the path of Cain and become a manslayer and still have a good relationship with God? who says:-


Isaiah 2:1-4

And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.



Micah 4:3

And he will certainly render judgment among many peoples, and set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.



Barryrob

[k4cym]

Hi John



It not a matter of what we think as puney men surely its God's view that really matters, is that not so?


So I think you might have missed the import of 1 John 3:15 as the “manslayer” here is paralled with “Cain” how killed in brother under the influence of the “wicked one” who himself is called a manslayer or muderer at John 8:44 who in effect killed all mankind. So can a Christian follow the path of Cain and become a manslayer and still have a good relationship with God? who says:-


Isaiah 2:1-4

And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.



Micah 4:3

And he will certainly render judgment among many peoples, and set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.



Barryrob


Hi Barryrob,

I agree that Isaiah 2:1-4 and Micah 4:3 this will be an awesome time but not now. These verses speak of when Jesus reigns over the whole earth and there will be peace. There was a short time during Jesus' ministry that His disciples were not to resist for the sake of Jesus' work and the will of God. But now the Scriptures have been fulfilled in Christ so now in this age until Jesus returns He says;

Luke 22:35-37 Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you out to preach the Good News and you were without money, duffle bag, or extra clothing, how did you get along?'' "Fine,'' they replied. "But now,'' he said, "take a duffle bag if you have one, and your money. And if you don't have a sword, better sell your clothes and buy one! For the time has come for this prophecy about me to come true: "He will be condemned as a criminal!" Yes, everything written about me by the prophets will come true.''

Many blessings in Christ,
John

[barryrob]

Hi Barryrob,

I agree that Isaiah 2:1-4 and Micah 4:3 this will be an awesome time but not now. These verses speak of when Jesus reigns over the whole earth and there will be peace. There was a short time during Jesus' ministry that His disciples were not to resist for the sake of Jesus' work and the will of God. But now the Scriptures have been fulfilled in Christ so now in this age until Jesus returns He says;

Luke 22:35-37 Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you out to preach the Good News and you were without money, duffle bag, or extra clothing, how did you get along?'' "Fine,'' they replied. "But now,'' he said, "take a duffle bag if you have one, and your money. And if you don't have a sword, better sell your clothes and buy one! For the time has come for this prophecy about me to come true: "He will be condemned as a criminal!" Yes, everything written about me by the prophets will come true.''

Many blessings in Christ,
John
These verses speak of NOW, not in the future, Jesus rules over Christians NOW:-

Isaiah 2:1-4 The thing that Isaiah the son of A´moz visioned concerning Judah and Jerusalem: 2 And it must occur in the final part of the days .... And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.


Micah 4:1-4 And it must occur in the final part of the days .... And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.



"The final part of the days" is NOW the time of the end when Jesus is sorting out persons who will follow what he says and thoses who will not or "the last days" as Paul called them when he wrote to Timothy at 2 Tim 3:1. God's people will be truly peacfull during the time of the end as living witnesses to what he says can, will, and is being done and working, as I said before war is no longer a problem for us as we will not get involved as we are Christian Neutrals and only obey God's established Kingdom Government By Christ Jesus fulfilling:-




Psalm 46:8-9 Come, YOU people, behold the activities of Jehovah, How he has set astonishing events on the earth. 9 He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces; The wagons he burns in the fire.





This is NOW happened among JWs as we will not take up arms world-wide in any and all nations so we alone show it can, is, and will be done regardless of what the Godless nations do or think, is that not how Jesus acted.





John you are still missing the point, Christians MUST be harmless NOW, later might be to late!




Barryrob

[k4cym]

These verses speak of NOW, not in the future, Jesus rules over Christians NOW:-

Isaiah 2:1-4 The thing that Isaiah the son of A´moz visioned concerning Judah and Jerusalem: 2 And it must occur in the final part of the days .... And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.


Micah 4:1-4 And it must occur in the final part of the days .... And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.



"The final part of the days" is NOW the time of the end when Jesus is sorting out persons who will follow what he says and thoses who will not or "the last days" as Paul called them when he wrote to Timothy at 2 Tim 3:1. God's people will be truly peacfull during the time of the end as living witnesses to what he says can, will, and is being done and working, as I said before war is no longer a problem for us as we will not get involved as we are Christian Neutrals and only obey God's established Kingdom Government By Christ Jesus fulfilling:-




Psalm 46:8-9 Come, YOU people, behold the activities of Jehovah, How he has set astonishing events on the earth. 9 He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces; The wagons he burns in the fire.





This is NOW happened among JWs as we will not take up arms world-wide in any and all nations so we alone show it can, is, and will be done regardless of what the Godless nations do or think, is that not how Jesus acted.





John you are still missing the point, Christians MUST be harmless NOW, later might be to late!




Barryrob

Hi Barryrob,

And what do you do with this verse?

Luke 22:35-37 Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you out to preach the Good News and you were without money, duffle bag, or extra clothing, how did you get along?'' "Fine,'' they replied. "But now,'' he said, "take a duffle bag if you have one, and your money. And if you don't have a sword, better sell your clothes and buy one! For the time has come for this prophecy about me to come true: "He will be condemned as a criminal!" Yes, everything written about me by the prophets will come true.''

Do you hold law enforcement and military in the same category?

Many blessings,
John

[barryrob]

Hi Barryrob,

And what do you do with this verse?

Luke 22:35-37 Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you out to preach the Good News and you were without money, duffle bag, or extra clothing, how did you get along?'' "Fine,'' they replied. "But now,'' he said, "take a duffle bag if you have one, and your money. And if you don't have a sword, better sell your clothes and buy one! For the time has come for this prophecy about me to come true: "He will be condemned as a criminal!" Yes, everything written about me by the prophets will come true.''

Do you hold law enforcement and military in the same category?

Many blessings,
John





Note he –Jesus- did not say join the Pagan Roman Army/Police etc.. We need to see what Jesus in the context of the time He in His Day not ours! What where thoses days like? Wild country, Wild Animals, Bandits, when going from town to town preaching so the needed some form of protection, rember the point I made Jesus did not condem self protection then or now against wild men & animals.






Where these swords for used in the Roman Army etc. as the army also served as the Police then. An interesting list of objections to Christian service in the Roman Army is the following from Adolf Harnack's book 'Milita Christi' page 65:-


"What was offensive to the early Christians about this profession [Roman Solider] can be summarised:

(1) it was a warrior's profession, and Christianity on principle rejected war and the shedding of blood;

(2) the officers, under given circumstances, had to pass the sentence of death, and soldiers in the ranks had to carry out everything they where ordered to do;

(3) the unconditional oath required of the solider was in conflict with the unconditional obligation to God;

(4) the cult of the emperor was at it strongest in the army and was hardly avoidable for each individual solider had to take part;

(5) the officers had to offer sacrifices, and the regular solider had to take part;

(6) the military standards appeared to be heathen sacra;

(7) the conduct of soldiers in peacetime (their extrotions, loose morals, and so forth) conflicted with the Christian ethic;

(8) the traditional, rough games and jokes in the army, for example, the mimus, were offensive in themselves and were connected in part with service of idols and the festivals of the gods."



So where do we see Christians in the above list? Did not Paul say:-



1 Corinthians 15:33 “Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits.”




So what has changed today?

We can say the the Idols today would by the Militery or State Flags and salute or oaths and the like!

Barryrob

[k4cym]

Note he –Jesus- did not say join the Pagan Roman Army/Police etc.. We need to see what Jesus in the context of the time He in His Day not ours! What where thoses days like? Wild country, Wild Animals, Bandits, when going from town to town preaching so the needed some form of protection, rember the point I made Jesus did not condem self protection then or now against wild men & animals.






Where these swords for used in the Roman Army etc. as the army also served as the Police then. An interesting list of objections to Christian service in the Roman Army is the following from Adolf Harnack's book 'Milita Christi' page 65:-


"What was offensive to the early Christians about this profession [Roman Solider] can be summarised:

(1) it was a warrior's profession, and Christianity on principle rejected war and the shedding of blood;

(2) the officers, under given circumstances, had to pass the sentence of death, and soldiers in the ranks had to carry out everything they where ordered to do;

(3) the unconditional oath required of the solider was in conflict with the unconditional obligation to God;

(4) the cult of the emperor was at it strongest in the army and was hardly avoidable for each individual solider had to take part;

(5) the officers had to offer sacrifices, and the regular solider had to take part;

(6) the military standards appeared to be heathen sacra;

(7) the conduct of soldiers in peacetime (their extrotions, loose morals, and so forth) conflicted with the Christian ethic;

(8) the traditional, rough games and jokes in the army, for example, the mimus, were offensive in themselves and were connected in part with service of idols and the festivals of the gods."



So where do we see Christians in the above list? Did not Paul say:-



1 Corinthians 15:33 “Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits.”




So what has changed today?

We can say the the Idols today would by the Militery or State Flags and salute or oaths and the like!

Barryrob

Hi Barryrob,

Here we have soldiers of the day asking John the Baptist a preacher of repentance what they must do. John tells them to drop their swords and get out of the Roman Army or perish. I don't hear John saying this but I do hear him telling them how to be a Christian in their profession.

Luke 3:14 Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, "And what shall we do?'' So he said to them, "Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages.''

Here we have a moment in Jesus' time when He had the opportunity to preach repentance to a centurion but instead we hear the first compliment from Jesus of someone having so great a faith in all Israel.

Matthew 8:8 The centurion answered and said, "Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. "For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, `Go,' and he goes; and to another, `Come,' and he comes; and to my servant, `Do this,' and he does it.' When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, "Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!

Here we have Cornelius another heathen solider call by God to turn away from his evil and repent, or do we hear God commending Cornelius for his ways?

Acts 10:1-4 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!'' And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?'' So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.

You say that Jesus gives permission to defend against personal attacks but I don't see the scriptures though I would like to. I do hear Jesus commanding to resist not evil.

Matthew 5:39 "But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

I do hear God calling out ministers to be His servants of wrath baring not the sword in vain.

Romans 13:4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

We are not to take matter into our own hands for conscience sake. God has ordained other for this purpose whether Christian or pagan.

I do see a separation between resisting evil when evil is done in resistance to the will of God because of the gospel (Peter cutting the ear off) compared to evil done for the sake of evil (Jesus with the whip).

The problem I see is not that a Christian is in the military or law enforcement but how these organizations are ran and the weapons of mass destruction that are used.

The shedding of innocent blood has always been a problem with God so I believe a Christian should not take part to this style of warfare for conscience sake.

Deuteronomy 19:10 That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.

What are your thoughts on these matters?

Many blessings,
John

[barryrob]

Hi Barryrob,

A. Here we have soldiers of the day asking John the Baptist a preacher of repentance what they must do. John tells them to drop their swords and get out of the Roman Army or perish. I don't hear John saying this but I do hear him telling them how to be a Christian in their profession.

Luke 3:14 Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, "And what shall we do?'' So he said to them, "Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages.''

B. Here we have a moment in Jesus' time when He had the opportunity to preach repentance to a centurion but instead we hear the first compliment from Jesus of someone having so great a faith in all Israel.

Matthew 8:8 The centurion answered and said, "Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. "For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, `Go,' and he goes; and to another, `Come,' and he comes; and to my servant, `Do this,' and he does it.' When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, "Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!

C. Here we have Cornelius another heathen solider call by God to turn away from his evil and repent, or do we hear God commending Cornelius for his ways?

Acts 10:1-4 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!'' And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?'' So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.

D. You say that Jesus gives permission to defend against personal attacks but I don't see the scriptures though I would like to. I do hear Jesus commanding to resist not evil.

Matthew 5:39 "But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

E. I do hear God calling out ministers to be His servants of wrath baring not the sword in vain.

Romans 13:4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

F. We are not to take matter into our own hands for conscience sake. God has ordained other for this purpose whether Christian or pagan.

I do see a separation between resisting evil when evil is done in resistance to the will of God because of the gospel (Peter cutting the ear off) compared to evil done for the sake of evil (Jesus with the whip).

The problem I see is not that a Christian is in the military or law enforcement but how these organizations are ran and the weapons of mass destruction that are used.

J. The shedding of innocent blood has always been a problem with God so I believe a Christian should not take part to this style of warfare for conscience sake.

K. Deuteronomy 19:10 That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.

What are your thoughts on these matters?

Many blessings,
JohnA. John lived in pre Christian times so is outside our point of reference, but suffice to say that during the pre Christian period God had required Israel to form an Army to fight theocratic wars by God's direct command.

B. Once again we are in per Christian time before the Christian Congregation was formed. But he used the opportunity to show love and use this man as an example of what faith should be like, who knows what happened later, I don't.

D. Isaiah 2:4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.

E. This deals with issues of faith e.g. if we are insulted or persecuted for our faith let the retribution be given by God e.g.:-

Jude 9 But when Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: "May Jehovah rebuke you."

F. The "he" is the Governmental arrangement that God allows to exist, not that he has appointed as this would include Godless communistic Governments which God does not support Ps 14:1.

G. But Jesus told Peter he was wrong to do it!!

H. The worst record of the use of WMDs where in so called Christian nations during WWI & WW2 among it various denominations, thus one of my reasons for my total rejection of Christendom's blood guilty Churches is for slaughtering of other human beings.

J. I go further, all warfare under the Prince of Peace.

K. The greater fulfilment of the above in the spiritual estate of the Christian Congregation and how we deal with other human beings which is "Love your enemy." and as recorded at:-

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for YOU, 7 but, to YOU who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will ..."

No Christian (much less Pagans) will have God's approval in doing that as it is God's right exclusivly.


Just a few trhoughts
Barryrob

[k4cym]

A. John lived in pre Christian times so is outside our point of reference, but suffice to say that during the pre Christian period God had required Israel to form an Army to fight theocratic wars by God's direct command.

B. Once again we are in per Christian time before the Christian Congregation was formed. But he used the opportunity to show love and use this man as an example of what faith should be like, who knows what happened later, I don't.

D. Isaiah 2:4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.

E. This deals with issues of faith e.g. if we are insulted or persecuted for our faith let the retribution be given by God e.g.:-

Jude 9 But when Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: "May Jehovah rebuke you."

F. The "he" is the Governmental arrangement that God allows to exist, not that he has appointed as this would include Godless communistic Governments which God does not support Ps 14:1.

G. But Jesus told Peter he was wrong to do it!!

H. The worst record of the use of WMDs where in so called Christian nations during WWI & WW2 among it various denominations, thus one of my reasons for my total rejection of Christendom's blood guilty Churches is for slaughtering of other human beings.

J. I go further, all warfare under the Prince of Peace.

K. The greater fulfilment of the above in the spiritual estate of the Christian Congregation and how we deal with other human beings which is "Love your enemy." and as recorded at:-

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for YOU, 7 but, to YOU who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will ..."

No Christian (much less Pagans) will have God's approval in doing that as it is God's right exclusivly.


Just a few trhoughts
Barryrob

Hi Barryrob,

First of all I would like to say that I am blessed by your scripture knowledge and your willingness to share with patience in such a controversial subject.

So let me understand where you are. Are you saying that being a police officer is against Christ?

My thoughts are, if God has ministers of His wrath then why can't they be Christians?

I don't agree with modern day warfare. Too much innocent blood shed which is totally against God's commands both in the OT and the NT.

Jeremiah 7:1-10 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, "Stand in the gate of the Lord's house, and proclaim there this word, and say, `Hear the word of the Lord, all you of Judah who enter in at these gates to worship the Lord!' '' Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: "Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place. "Do not trust in these lying words, saying, `The temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord are these.' "For if you thoroughly amend your ways and your doings, if you thoroughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbor, "if you do not oppress the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place, or walk after other gods to your hurt, "then I will cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever. "Behold, you trust in lying words that cannot profit. "Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, burn incense to Baal, and walk after other gods whom you do not know, "and then come and stand before Me in this house which is called by My name, and say, `We are delivered to do all these abominations'?

Notice that God desires no innocent blood shed in the land that He has given to our fathers forever and ever, He didn't say "No blood shed.". This holds true for today because we're still in that land for the new heaven and the new earth are not here yet.

Many blessings,
John

[barryrob]

As far as vengence, Barryrob, I agree. We are not to take revenge on others.

But Policing is not about revenge, it is about meting out justice. When someone breaks a law, to capture and punish that person is no vengence, but carrying out justice and protecting the innocent. And police do it as an instrument of Government as approved of by God. It is not something personal. Without good police, evil would be much worse in this world. I thank God for police and being able to live in a country where we can be free and not afraid of criminals controlling our lives by fear and intimidation.Yes I can agree with you on the need for police and what it would be like with out them, which I think in said before in this thread, yes and they do a lot of good, but as we can both agree they are not the final solution to the problems of crime, violence, etc. But God approved or God made, No:-

Ephesians 6:12-13 because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places. 13 On this account take up the complete suit of armor from God, that YOU may be able to resist in the wicked day and, after YOU have done all things thoroughly, to stand firm.

Whilst the as I say they do some good, to who do they hold allegiance, to The God of the Bible, which would make them Theocratic, No, not according to the above text as it show the real power behind all the governments of this world "wicked spirit forces" and as the Bible say of human efforts to solve problems:-

Jeremiah 10:23-24 "I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step. Correct me, O Jehovah, however with judgment; not in your anger, that you may not reduce me to nothing."

and why, because at the end of the day God will is not done by them, no matter how well intentioned the efforts are mostly done with out God being taken into account in there establishment and running, thus they fail and will fail to being lasting "Peace and Security" as in them is Satan's influence, e.g. we will solve our own problems and we do not need God's help. The Bible tells us what will happen to all Worldly Governments and kingdoms:-

Daniel 2:44-45 "And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms*, and it itself will stand to times indefinite; 45 forasmuch as you beheld that out of the mountain a stone was cut not by hands, and [that] it crushed the iron, the copper, the molded clay, the silver and the gold. The grand God himself has made known to the king what is to occur after this. And the dream is reliable, and the interpretation of it is trustworthy."

*All the world powers depicted in the Statue in the Dream God gave to The King of Babylon which included all the world powers of our day, God will destroy, their Armies, Judicial systems, Political structures and supports to an annihilation forever at Armageddon because of rejecting Jehovah's Universal Sovereignty.

Barryrob

[Sparko]

Yes I can agree with you on the need for police and what it would be like with out them, which I think in said before in this thread, yes and they do a lot of good, but as we can both agree they are not the final solution to the problems of crime, violence, etc. But God approved or God made, No:-


Whilst the as I say they do some good, to who do they hold allegiance, to The God of the Bible, which would make them Theocratic, No, not according to the above text as it show the real power behind all the governments of this world "wicked spirit forces" and as the Bible say of human efforts to solve problems:-
Barryrob

See that is where we see things differently. You see the police as having allegience to the evil government.

First, the Government is only as evil as the people in power are. If good Christians ran the government then it would not be an evil government. So my point is that we should try to get as many good Christians into our government as we can, not avoid public office as you Jehovah's witnesses do, not even voting.

And the police are only as "wicked" as the individuals are who are police officers. If a police officer is an Atheist, then he has no allegience to God or Christian principals. My brother is a Christian police officer and while he is sworn to uphold the laws of the land, his allegience is to Jesus and his principals are driven by God and Christ.

So if we put Christians in office to give us Christian based laws, and we have christian police officers who uphold christian laws, then we will be much better off, right?

[barryrob]

See that is where we see things differently. You see the police as having allegience to the evil government.

First, the Government is only as evil as the people in power are. If good Christians ran the government then it would not be an evil government. So my point is that we should try to get as many good Christians into our government as we can, not avoid public office as you Jehovah's witnesses do, not even voting.

And the police are only as "wicked" as the individuals are who are police officers. If a police officer is an Atheist, then he has no allegience to God or Christian principals. My brother is a Christian police officer and while he is sworn to uphold the laws of the land, his allegience is to Jesus and his principals are driven by God and Christ.

So if we put Christians in office to give us Christian based laws, and we have christian police officers who uphold christian laws, then we will be much better off, right?Any form of rulership, goverment, kingdom, etc. by it's very existance is a rival rulership or power to that of God's.

As the scriptures say:-



1 Corinthians 15:24-26 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he (Jesus) has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing.





Here we see a short list of God's enemies that will be destroyed by him via his King Jesus Christ which includes Goverments so the Scriptures disagree with you John!



Barryrob

[barryrob]

Hi Barryrob,

First of all I would like to say that I am blessed by your scripture knowledge and your willingness to share with patience in such a controversial subject.

So let me understand where you are. Are you saying that being a police officer is against Christ?

My thoughts are, if God has ministers of His wrath then why can't they be Christians?

I don't agree with modern day warfare. Too much innocent blood shed which is totally against God's commands both in the OT and the NT.

Jeremiah 7:1-10 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, "Stand in the gate of the Lord's house, and proclaim there this word, and say, `Hear the word of the Lord, all you of Judah who enter in at these gates to worship the Lord!' '' Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: "Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place. "Do not trust in these lying words, saying, `The temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord are these.' "For if you thoroughly amend your ways and your doings, if you thoroughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbor, "if you do not oppress the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place, or walk after other gods to your hurt, "then I will cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever. "Behold, you trust in lying words that cannot profit. "Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, burn incense to Baal, and walk after other gods whom you do not know, "and then come and stand before Me in this house which is called by My name, and say, `We are delivered to do all these abominations'?

Notice that God desires no innocent blood shed in the land that He has given to our fathers forever and ever, He didn't say "No blood shed.". This holds true for today because we're still in that land for the new heaven and the new earth are not here yet.

Many blessings,
John
Hi John

Good to hear your thoughts on warfare, much how I feel.

You rise some very interesting pints:-

A controversial point you make here "So let me understand where you are. Are you saying that being a police officer is against Christ?" I a word yes. Now let me explain. A Policeman/woman or Solider have sworn an oath to obey the state which is in violation to the oath or vow that all humans should make to God:-

Daniel 7:13-14 son of man [Jesus] happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days [Jehovah] he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

If any person does not serve Jesus as God's King then that only leave one other option, serve the Devil as these are the only two kinds of rule that all humans have to choose from! So what will God's King to all worldly Governments:-

1 Corinthians 15:24-26 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing.

Even if all efforts are well intentioned that Stand Against Almighty God:-

Psalm 2:2 The kings of earth take their stand And high officials themselves have massed together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one [Jesus],

Here we see all the earthly rulership from God's View point!

Psalm 2:5-6 At that time he will speak to them in his anger And in his hot displeasure he will disturb them, 6 [Saying:] "I, even I, have installed my king Upon Zion, my holy mountain."

Here we see what he thinks of them because they refuse to obey Jesus' rule!



Psalm 2:8-9 Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your own possession. 9 You will break them with an iron scepter, As though a potter’s vessel you will dash them to pieces."

Here we see that all power over and on this earth is NOW Jesus Christ's and what he has been commissioned to do with them by Jehovah as they all stand in against to him and his rule.


This is intersting "My thoughts are, if God has ministers of His wrath then why can't they be Christians?"
What is a minister of God commisioned to do? Ths scriptures show:-

Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."

1st There is no greater power on this earth than Jesus so every human sould obey his commands and teach others to do the same 2) thus make disciples ("taught ones"), 3) and to be doers of God's will, 4) until Armaggeden happens.

Please note that according to the above Scripture Jesus is the only Prime Minister (on human) appointed by God!

Just a few point to pray about.
Love to all.
Barryrob

[Sparko]

Any form of rulership, goverment, kingdom, etc. by it's very existance is a rival rulership or power to that of God's.

As the scriptures say:-

1 Corinthians 15:24-26 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he (Jesus) has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing.

Here we see a short list of God's enemies that will be destroyed by him via his King Jesus Christ which includes Goverments so the Scriptures disagree with you John!

Barryrob

Remember the goverment of the Israelites? God set up that Government for them and it was God's goverment. It was not in conflict with God, but worked hand and hand with God. Until some bad rulers got in charge, then they went against God and did what was right in their eyes.

A government can be with God or against God. If Godly men are in charge, it can work with God, if we allow evil men to be in charge, then it will go against God.

It is our duty to at least TRY to keep godly men in charge and to TRY to make our government follow God and work WITH God and not against him.

We are privelaged in the US to be able to actually make changes to our government (local, state and federal) and make sure Godly men and women get into office and to get ungodly people out of office. We can even run for office ourselves and make more changes.

It is our duty as Christians to keep this world as close to God's will as we can, until Jesus comes back and sets up his perfect Government.

[barryrob]

Remember the goverment of the Israelites? God set up that Government for them and it was God's goverment. It was not in conflict with God, but worked hand and hand with God. Until some bad rulers got in charge, then they went against God and did what was right in their eyes.

A government can be with God or against God. If Godly men are in charge, it can work with God, if we allow evil men to be in charge, then it will go against God.

It is our duty to at least TRY to keep godly men in charge and to TRY to make our government follow God and work WITH God and not against him.

We are privelaged in the US to be able to actually make changes to our government (local, state and federal) and make sure Godly men and women get into office and to get ungodly people out of office. We can even run for office ourselves and make more changes.

It is our duty as Christians to keep this world as close to God's will as we can, until Jesus comes back and sets up his perfect Government.

You are trying to sugest the totaly impposible read Psalm 2, it show God's view of all human powers and what he is going to do with them via Christ, so if anyone supports them they will have to go the same way!

Barryrob

[Sparko]

I agree it is impossible for man to create the perfect government that aligns with God.

But on the scale of governments that range from that of Hitler, to that of the USA, you have to agree that the USA's Government is closer to God's will than Hitler's was.

We can never reach perfection. But it is OUR Christian duty to make sure our Government is as close to God's will as we can make it. To do otherwise is to allow government to become as evil as Hitler's did.

Do you not agree that a Christian has a duty to fight evil and promote Christ and God's values and will?

[barryrob]

I agree it is impossible for man to create the perfect government that aligns with God.

But on the scale of governments that range from that of Hitler, to that of the USA, you have to agree that the USA's Government is closer to God's will than Hitler's was.

We can never reach perfection. But it is OUR Christian duty to make sure our Government is as close to God's will as we can make it. To do otherwise is to allow government to become as evil as Hitler's did.

Do you not agree that a Christian has a duty to fight evil and promote Christ and God's values and will?
Hitler's rule and weapons of war have killed millions. The weapons made and sold by the USA and the wars it has fought have killed millions so how do they differ in the end (as with all the powers on men e.g The Concentration Camp was invented by the Brithish during the Boer War). What is worse they both claim to be Christian. "A Rose by any other name is still a Rose" mass murder or the production and use of wepons sale and use of them by any power makes them no better than each other. Thus said John:-

1 John 5:19 the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one.

Hitler, USA, Britan, in fact ALL world powers or is John not telling the truth?

It is a Chrisdtian duty to make a stand against evil by following Jesus example and Preaching Govermtn by God is the only way and telling other people that this is what God's Kingdom is and will be and staying nuetral as regards tha slaughter purpetuated by the Godless power no matter who they are thus fillfil Jesus words:-

John 15:19 If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU.



I would personal perfure to be hated by all the Goverments/Powers of this world because I will not Murder (or Kill) another human at the say so of a power hungery politian and to be loved by Jesus for not taking a Life that he Died for to save!!!

Romans 13:8-10 Do not YOU people be owing anybody a single thing, except to love one another; for he that loves his fellowman has fulfilled [the] law. 9 For the [law code], "You must not commit adultery, You must not murder, You must not steal, You must not covet," and whatever other commandment there is, is summed up in this word, namely, "You must love (Gk. Lit. You will love") your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor; therefore love is the law’s fulfillment.

"MUST" in the above is unconditional (it is God's Will)upon Nation, Skin, Politics, Money, etc. did not Jesus love thoses who murdered him, did he not die for them also, so then, should not true Christins do the same and die for them instead of killing them as Jesus did?? True Love works Good to all:-


Matthew 5:43-48 ""YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; 45 that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. 46 For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? 48 YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect."


Did not God give rain and sun and food to the Gremans and Japanes in WW1 & WW2 so was he wrong or did he set the example for Christian to follow:-


Ephesians 5:1-2 Therefore, become imitators of God, as beloved children, 2 and go on walking in love, just as the Christ also loved YOU and delivered himself up for YOU as an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling odor.


Jesus died for all, even Adolf Hitler, as he could have excepted what Jesus had done for him. Jesus died for all the Greman people and the people in Japan, you, me, everyone, yes Jesus showed us the way, not to be like human powers but for us to show the power of true love and die FOR thoses who hate us, that is the only way to stop the killing.

Sorry John your ways have failed to bring ""Peace and Security" (1 Thess 5:3).

Barryrob

[Sparko]

so you equate the usa's government to hitler's? That is so sad Barryrob.

You should leave this country that you hate so much. If you feel like that about our country and government, then you are a hypocrite to live here, taking advantage of the peace and security it provides, while denouncing it as Satanic.

If you feel it is Satanic, why do you stay here taking advantage of the satanic benefits it provides?

Leave.

[barryrob]

so you equate the usa's government to hitler's? That is so sad Barryrob.

You should leave this country that you hate so much. If you feel like that about our country and government, then you are a hypocrite to live here, taking advantage of the peace and security it provides, while denouncing it as Satanic.

If you feel it is Satanic, why do you stay here taking advantage of the satanic benefits it provides?

Leave.


I thinks its very sad as well but, even worse than that its true!

So where would I go that is any differant?

Jesus hated the rulers in his own land so that would make him a hypocrite as well?

Peace & security with all the gun crime and with the highest killer among young Americans 25-30. is AIDs, when the 10 commandments are legaly removed for the laws courts, when terroists could strike any time, when the socity is encased in materialsum.

You say itmate it Christian based when it National emblom Liberty is a the Roman pagan Goddess Libitas when it goverment is a copy of the Pagan Sente with the pagan Roman Aquila as its nations symbol. When you next go to Grend Centeral station in NY look above the main enterance and you will see looking back the Roman Pagan Gods Mercury, Hercules, Miverva on the pediment and on the ceiling of the Main Hall more pagan gods the signs of the Zodiac Orion = Hercules. When you next go into the U.N. Building in NY look on the front Doors and you will see the Pagan Gods glorified:-

PAX

JUISTITIS
VERITAS
FRATER & NITAS

No mention of Jesus or Jehovah in the UN Garden they quote "beating swords into plowsherars" then form an Army (with blue hats) to kill the killers which does nothing more that purpetuate the circit of violance. They claim to bring P & S buy force?! Jesus did it with love.

Jesus lived in a countery that he considered to be run by Satan's followers Re John 8:44 to it religious leaders. So wuld he have to leave as well so that he would not get the benifits that come from God.


If I did leave where would I go that is any differant as Satan is the God of the whole world according to Gods Word:-

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

Your sugestions fail again John


Barryrob

[Sparko]

you dissapoint me Barryrob.

Jesus did say to make a difference. YOu are not to sit on your keester and soak in the satanic benefits of your government all the while bemoaning how evil they are.

You dont keep you light hidden and let the darkness prevail. You bring your light out and share it with the world trying to light it up and make a difference.

Matt 5: 13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.
14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.



If you don't even try, then you have lost your saltiness and are hiding your light under a bowl. You should leave the country and go to some island where you wont be bothered by this evil government. Either lead, follow or get out of the way. But don't stand there and tell me our government is as evil as Hitler's and just sit there accepting it, hypocritically soaking in the benefits of peace and comfort that you have. If the devil is providing them for you then you should reject them on principal, not glibly accept them. Do you think that Jesus would have accepted bread if the Devil offered it to him in the desert?

[kofh2u]

Some very good bible analysis on all sides.

barryrob:

Daniel 7:13-14 son of man [Jesus] happened to be coming;

KOFHY:
32AD, right?

barryrob:
...and to the Ancient of Days [Jehovah] he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One.

KOFHY:
Matt. 17:2 And was transfigured, (becoming totally conscious, even in his Unconscious Mind, the phylogenetic storehouse of our Ancient of ancients), right before
them: and his face did shine as the sun, (as had the face of Moses), and his raiment was white as the light.

barryrob:
14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him.

KOFHY:
Rev. 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, (the subtle cultural system
of exploitive sexual mores), that old serpent (cultural Paganism), which is the devil (of sexual license), and (libidinal lustfulness of) satan, and bound him, the dragon, a thousand (1000) Years throughout (The DARK AGES),

barryrob:
His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

KOFHY:
Rev. 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit (of time), and shut him up (so as to inhibit the culture of sexual freedom and license), and set a seal, (the Cross) upon him, that he (could not maintain that subculture that) should deceive the nations no more, till the a thousand year (of the Dark Age) should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed (an the subculture reinstated) a little season (of @500 years).

barryrob:
If any person does not serve Jesus as God's King then that only leave one other option, serve the Devil as these are the only two kinds of rule that all humans have to choose from!

KOFHY:
he MUST be loosed (an the subculture reinstated) a little season (of @500 years).

barryrob:
So what will God's King to all worldly Governments:-

1 Corinthians 15:24-26 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet.

KOFHY:
Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones (of Christian authority) and (the priest of Roman Catholicism), they sat upon them (in 604AD), and (theocratic) judgment was given unto them (under Universal Catholicism):

barryrob:
26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing.

KOFHY:

1Cor. 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (the final moment of the second coming): for the trumpet (that sounds from our own awakened Unconscious Mind) shall sound (as in the Transfiguration), and the dead, (genetically preserved, Collective Unconscious Minds stored in our brain), shall be raised (mentally) incorruptible (as spirit-like thoughts), and we shall be changed (into Homoiousian beings).

1Cor. 15:53 For this corruptible, (partly unconscious, and unknowing mind) must put on incorruption (in the form of total consciousness and remembrance), and this mortal (conscious life experience) must put on
immortality (in phylogenetic Consciousness).

1Cor. 15:54 So when this corruptible (Unconsciousness Mind) shall have put on incorruption (by means of total consciousness), and this mortal (process of dying) shall have put on immortality (by means of genetically reproduced phylogenetic memory), then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory (for we shall have access, mentally, to our own past lives).

1Cor. 15:55 O death, where is thy sting (for are we not resurrected from our heavenly bode of the human genome, time and again)? O grave, where is thy victory (for is not our mind genetically reformed in every birth we shall continuously re-experience)?

barryrob:
Even if all efforts are well intentioned that Stand Against Almighty God:-

Psalm 2:2 The kings of earth take their stand And high officials themselves have massed together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one [Jesus],

KOFHY:
Rev. 6:15 And (1) the kings of the earth, (POLITICIAN), and (2) the
great men, (STATESMEN), and (3) the rich men, (ECONOMIC BARONS), and (4) the chief captains, (PRIESTHOODS), and (5) the mighty men, (MILITARY LEADERS), and (6) every bondman, (CRAFTSMAN), and (7) every free man, (PEASANT), hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the (pagan temples);

Rev. 6:16 And said to the mountains (of the previous social institutions) and rocks (of cultural norms), Fall on us, (help!), and hide us from the face (of Papal judgment) of (Universal Catholism), him that sitteth on the throne (of Christian Rome) and from the (words of) wrath of the Lamb, (the Word of the New Testament):

Rev. 6:17 For the great day of his wrath, (the one thousand year reign predicted), is come; and who shall be able to stand?

barryrob:
Psalm 2:5-6 At that time he will [b]speak to them in his anger And in his hot displeasure he will disturb them, 6 [Saying:] "I, even I, have installed my king Upon Zion, my holy mountain."

KOFHY:
Zech. 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, ( 324-1492 A D),
saith the LORD of hosts (of Christian hoards), that I will cut off the names of the idols (of pagan Rome) out of the land (of Western Europe), and Paganism shall no more be remembered: (during the 1000 years of a Dark Age) and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit (of Libidinal excesses) to pass out of the land.

barryrob:
Psalm 2:8-9 Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your own possession.

KOFHY:
Zech. 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of
all the nations (and denominations of Christian religions) which came
against (this New) Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to
worship the King, (the lion of Judah, root of David), the LORD of hosts, (Lord of the myraid of Christians), and to keep the feast of tabernacles, (and build cube shaped geometries of Urim and Thummim, as if Sukkots).

barryrob:
9 [b]You will break them with an iron scepter, As though a potter’s vessel you will dash them to pieces."

KOFHY:
Rev. 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron, (an undeniable
interpretation of scripture); as the vessels of a potter shall they be
broken to shivers, (so the verses, as the individual pieces of a massive
puzzle, shall they be separated out from one another): even as I
received of my Father, (the Word of the Old Testament).

barryrob:
This is intersting "My thoughts are, if God has ministers of His wrath then why can't they be Christians?"


What is a minister of God commisioned to do? Ths scriptures show:-

Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,

KOFHY:
Rev. 16:12 And the sixth angel (an insight within my mind), poured out his vial (of intuitions) upon the great river of Islam, Euphrates; and the waters (of that people's theology) thereof was dried up (and ready for the fire of Christian baptism), that the way of conversion (to Christ) of the (Mullah) kings of the (middle) east might be prepared.

barryrob:
20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU.

KOFHY:
Love God.
Love thy enemy.

barryrob:
And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."

KOFHY:
Rev. 10:7 But in the days of (Christian Humanitarism) the voice of the seventh angel, (the spirit of human Harmony), when he, (that awakening subconscious apparatus of mind), shall begin to sound (consciously in the thoughts of men), the MYSTERY of God, (to be revealed in phylogenetic memory), should be finished, as he hath informed his servants the prophets (as recorded in scripture).

barryrob:
1st There is no greater power on this earth than Jesus so every human should obey his commands and teach others to do the same

KOFHY:
Absolutely!

barryrob:
2) thus make disciples ("taught ones"),

KOFHY:
Isa. 60:5 Then, thereafter, thou shalt see (these hoards of Christianity, and ye O'Israel), flow together (with them), and thine
heart shall fear (the truth of Christ in your conversion), and be enlarged (in understanding of scripture); because the abundance of the sea (of unconscious realizations) shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles, (now Christians, two billions in number), shall come unto thee.

barryrob:
3) and to be doers of God's will,

KOFHY:
Isa. 61:3 To appoint unto them (the Jews from diaspora) that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for (crematorium) ashes, the oil of joy for mourning (their Holocaust), the garment of (scriptures') praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they (of Jacob and of Israel) might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

Isa. 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the
former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

Isa. 61:5 And strangers (in Gaza and the West bank) shall stand and
feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien (Jordanians, the PLO) shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.

Isa. 61:6 But ye shall be named (the Kohanim), Priests of the LORD: men shall call you (the Aaronic) Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the (Christian) Gentiles, and in their glory, (Jesus), shall ye boast
yourselves.

barryrob:
4) until Armaggeden happens.

KOFHY: The sign of the Fig Tree...
Isa. 66:7 Before (Israeli Statehood) she travailed, she brought forth; before (sovereign nationality) her pain came (in Holocaust), she was delivered of a (Christian) man child.

Isa. 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to bring forth (a new country) in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as (had) Zion travailed (in the United Nation approval), she brought forth her children (from the ends of the earth).

Isa. 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth (this nation, Israel), and not
cause to bring forth (my prophecies)? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth (this one prediction), and shut the womb (from those prophecies remaining)? saith thy God.

Isa. 66:10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

[barryrob]

you dissapoint me Barryrob.

Jesus did say to make a difference. YOu are not to sit on your keester and soak in the satanic benefits of your government all the while bemoaning how evil they are.

You dont keep you light hidden and let the darkness prevail. You bring your light out and share it with the world trying to light it up and make a difference.

Matt 5: 13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.
14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.



If you don't even try, then you have lost your saltiness and are hiding your light under a bowl. You should leave the country and go to some island where you wont be bothered by this evil government. Either lead, follow or get out of the way. But don't stand there and tell me our government is as evil as Hitler's and just sit there accepting it, hypocritically soaking in the benefits of peace and comfort that you have. If the devil is providing them for you then you should reject them on principal, not glibly accept them. Do you think that Jesus would have accepted bread if the Devil offered it to him in the desert?
You make me feel very comfortable with my ideas as the pagan Romans felt very much the same about my 1st Century Bothers.

You know as well as me that Jehovah's Witnesses are more active than most churches and do make a big difference in today's world as we are know all over the world for our Kingdom Preaching with 5,000 each week joining us, small in number but large in spirit as these will also be going from House to House etc. preaching:-

Acts 5:42 And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.

The Church just encourage more war as they support their favoured politician or party and do most of them focus on making each member of it congregation to be a preacher, no!

My you do miss the mark by a mile good thing come from God not men did you not read:-

Matthew 5:43-48 "YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; 45 that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. 46 For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? 48 YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect.

God supplies my food and sun, show me a man that can make the sun shine and rain fall to make food grow??

Satan and his followers kill other humans.

Barryrob

[Sparko]

You make me feel very comfortable with my ideas as the pagan Romans felt very much the same about my 1st Century Bothers.
Yes. but what did the Christians do? They took over the roman empire without firing a shot.



You know as well as me that Jehovah's Witnesses are more active than most churches and do make a big difference in today's world as we are know all over the world for our Kingdom Preaching with 5,000 each week joining us, small in number but large in spirit as these will also be going from House to House etc. preaching:-
The only difference you make as far as government goes is to convince more and more people to not try to influence government for God and let Satan take over more and more.

Like Churchill said, "all it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing"

Matthew 5:43-48 "YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; 45 that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. 46 For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? 48 YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect.

God supplies my food and sun, show me a man that can make the sun shine and rain fall to make food grow??

I never said a thing about rain or sunshine or food, did I? Who is it that keeps criminals from robbing you and beating up and killing your family? Who is it that stops other countries from invading and killing all of us? The government serves a purpose, and it is God's instrument to provide safety and justice and peace for us. IF it is a Godly governement. If not, then it will be a tool of Satan to torture and kill.

I am done with this thread Barryrob. You have no clue.

[barryrob]

I am done with this thread Barryrob. You have no clue.

Intresting they said the very same about Jesus at John 10:20 "Many of them were saying: “He has a demon and is mad. Why do YOU listen to him?”" for doing good!

I my have no clue but I have a lot of PEACE with God and Men.

Well here we have it. my sentments exatly:-

Your words, "Yes. but what did the Christians do? They took over the roman empire without firing a shot." Well why don't you think like them???



Barryrob

[sylas]

Some very good bible analysis on all sides.

Not in your case, kofh2u. You are still quoting your own private interpretation, the Freudian Bible, incorrectly labelled as if it was the bible itself, and with no argument or justification for the ludicrous additions you make to the biblical text.

Cheers -- Sylas

(See also the thread Is David Judah Layb the coming messiah? in Comparative Religion, and also this post in which other material from kofh publishers is shown.)

[barryrob]

Not in your case, kofh2u. You are still quoting your own private interpretation, the Freudian Bible, incorrectly labelled as if it was the bible itself, and with no argument or justification for the ludicrous additions you make to the biblical text.

Cheers -- Sylas

(See also the thread Is David Judah Layb the coming messiah? in Comparative Religion, and also this post in which other material from kofh publishers is shown.)
So what is your personal view point, should christian get involved in national Warfare?

We would you like to hear your views.

Barryrob

[barryrob]

Some very good bible analysis on all sides.

barryrob:

Daniel 7:13-14 son of man [Jesus] happened to be coming;

KOFHY:
32AD, right?

barryrob:
...and to the Ancient of Days [Jehovah] he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One.

KOFHY:
Matt. 17:2 And was transfigured, (becoming totally conscious, even in his Unconscious Mind, the phylogenetic storehouse of our Ancient of ancients), right before
them: and his face did shine as the sun, (as had the face of Moses), and his raiment was white as the light.

barryrob:
14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him.

KOFHY:
Rev. 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, (the subtle cultural system
of exploitive sexual mores), that old serpent (cultural Paganism), which is the devil (of sexual license), and (libidinal lustfulness of) satan, and bound him, the dragon, a thousand (1000) Years throughout (The DARK AGES),

barryrob:
His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

KOFHY:
Rev. 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit (of time), and shut him up (so as to inhibit the culture of sexual freedom and license), and set a seal, (the Cross) upon him, that he (could not maintain that subculture that) should deceive the nations no more, till the a thousand year (of the Dark Age) should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed (an the subculture reinstated) a little season (of @500 years).

barryrob:
If any person does not serve Jesus as God's King then that only leave one other option, serve the Devil as these are the only two kinds of rule that all humans have to choose from!

KOFHY:
he MUST be loosed (an the subculture reinstated) a little season (of @500 years).

barryrob:
So what will God's King to all worldly Governments:-

1 Corinthians 15:24-26 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet.

KOFHY:
Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones (of Christian authority) and (the priest of Roman Catholicism), they sat upon them (in 604AD), and (theocratic) judgment was given unto them (under Universal Catholicism):

barryrob:
26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing.

KOFHY:

1Cor. 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (the final moment of the second coming): for the trumpet (that sounds from our own awakened Unconscious Mind) shall sound (as in the Transfiguration), and the dead, (genetically preserved, Collective Unconscious Minds stored in our brain), shall be raised (mentally) incorruptible (as spirit-like thoughts), and we shall be changed (into Homoiousian beings).

1Cor. 15:53 For this corruptible, (partly unconscious, and unknowing mind) must put on incorruption (in the form of total consciousness and remembrance), and this mortal (conscious life experience) must put on
immortality (in phylogenetic Consciousness).

1Cor. 15:54 So when this corruptible (Unconsciousness Mind) shall have put on incorruption (by means of total consciousness), and this mortal (process of dying) shall have put on immortality (by means of genetically reproduced phylogenetic memory), then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory (for we shall have access, mentally, to our own past lives).

1Cor. 15:55 O death, where is thy sting (for are we not resurrected from our heavenly bode of the human genome, time and again)? O grave, where is thy victory (for is not our mind genetically reformed in every birth we shall continuously re-experience)?

barryrob:
Even if all efforts are well intentioned that Stand Against Almighty God:-

Psalm 2:2 The kings of earth take their stand And high officials themselves have massed together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one [Jesus],

KOFHY:
Rev. 6:15 And (1) the kings of the earth, (POLITICIAN), and (2) the
great men, (STATESMEN), and (3) the rich men, (ECONOMIC BARONS), and (4) the chief captains, (PRIESTHOODS), and (5) the mighty men, (MILITARY LEADERS), and (6) every bondman, (CRAFTSMAN), and (7) every free man, (PEASANT), hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the (pagan temples);

Rev. 6:16 And said to the mountains (of the previous social institutions) and rocks (of cultural norms), Fall on us, (help!), and hide us from the face (of Papal judgment) of (Universal Catholism), him that sitteth on the throne (of Christian Rome) and from the (words of) wrath of the Lamb, (the Word of the New Testament):

Rev. 6:17 For the great day of his wrath, (the one thousand year reign predicted), is come; and who shall be able to stand?

barryrob:
Psalm 2:5-6 At that time he will [b]speak to them in his anger And in his hot displeasure he will disturb them, 6 [Saying:] "I, even I, have installed my king Upon Zion, my holy mountain."

KOFHY:
Zech. 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, ( 324-1492 A D),
saith the LORD of hosts (of Christian hoards), that I will cut off the names of the idols (of pagan Rome) out of the land (of Western Europe), and Paganism shall no more be remembered: (during the 1000 years of a Dark Age) and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit (of Libidinal excesses) to pass out of the land.

barryrob:
Psalm 2:8-9 Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your own possession.

KOFHY:
Zech. 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of
all the nations (and denominations of Christian religions) which came
against (this New) Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to
worship the King, (the lion of Judah, root of David), the LORD of hosts, (Lord of the myraid of Christians), and to keep the feast of tabernacles, (and build cube shaped geometries of Urim and Thummim, as if Sukkots).

barryrob:
9 [b]You will break them with an iron scepter, As though a potter’s vessel you will dash them to pieces."

KOFHY:
Rev. 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron, (an undeniable
interpretation of scripture); as the vessels of a potter shall they be
broken to shivers, (so the verses, as the individual pieces of a massive
puzzle, shall they be separated out from one another): even as I
received of my Father, (the Word of the Old Testament).

barryrob:
This is intersting "My thoughts are, if God has ministers of His wrath then why can't they be Christians?"


What is a minister of God commisioned to do? Ths scriptures show:-

Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,

KOFHY:
Rev. 16:12 And the sixth angel (an insight within my mind), poured out his vial (of intuitions) upon the great river of Islam, Euphrates; and the waters (of that people's theology) thereof was dried up (and ready for the fire of Christian baptism), that the way of conversion (to Christ) of the (Mullah) kings of the (middle) east might be prepared.

barryrob:
20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU.

KOFHY:
Love God.
Love thy enemy.

barryrob:
And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."

KOFHY:
Rev. 10:7 But in the days of (Christian Humanitarism) the voice of the seventh angel, (the spirit of human Harmony), when he, (that awakening subconscious apparatus of mind), shall begin to sound (consciously in the thoughts of men), the MYSTERY of God, (to be revealed in phylogenetic memory), should be finished, as he hath informed his servants the prophets (as recorded in scripture).

barryrob:
1st There is no greater power on this earth than Jesus so every human should obey his commands and teach others to do the same

KOFHY:
Absolutely!

barryrob:
2) thus make disciples ("taught ones"),

KOFHY:
Isa. 60:5 Then, thereafter, thou shalt see (these hoards of Christianity, and ye O'Israel), flow together (with them), and thine
heart shall fear (the truth of Christ in your conversion), and be enlarged (in understanding of scripture); because the abundance of the sea (of unconscious realizations) shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles, (now Christians, two billions in number), shall come unto thee.

barryrob:
3) and to be doers of God's will,

KOFHY:
Isa. 61:3 To appoint unto them (the Jews from diaspora) that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for (crematorium) ashes, the oil of joy for mourning (their Holocaust), the garment of (scriptures') praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they (of Jacob and of Israel) might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

Isa. 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the
former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

Isa. 61:5 And strangers (in Gaza and the West bank) shall stand and
feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien (Jordanians, the PLO) shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.

Isa. 61:6 But ye shall be named (the Kohanim), Priests of the LORD: men shall call you (the Aaronic) Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the (Christian) Gentiles, and in their glory, (Jesus), shall ye boast
yourselves.

barryrob:
4) until Armaggeden happens.

KOFHY: The sign of the Fig Tree...
Isa. 66:7 Before (Israeli Statehood) she travailed, she brought forth; before (sovereign nationality) her pain came (in Holocaust), she was delivered of a (Christian) man child.

Isa. 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to bring forth (a new country) in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as (had) Zion travailed (in the United Nation approval), she brought forth her children (from the ends of the earth).

Isa. 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth (this nation, Israel), and not
cause to bring forth (my prophecies)? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth (this one prediction), and shut the womb (from those prophecies remaining)? saith thy God.

Isa. 66:10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

A very intersting post, but sum your personal views on participation in warfare in 2 or 3 paragraphes with a text or two. looking forward to your thoughts

Barryrob

[sylas]

So what is your personal view point, should christian get involved in national Warfare?

I'm not a Christian, so this is not for me to say.

[barryrob]

I'm not a Christian, so this is not for me to say.Thanks for your intrest anyway.
Barryrob

[barryrob]

Against war... but willing to die for peace. No greater love than that? If evil men battle while self righteous men do nothing... where then ARE the Christian Soldiers marching AS tho' to war?


Isa. 60:1 Arise, (O'Israel), shine; for thy enlightenment is come, and
the glory of the LORD, (the meaning of Hebrew scripture), is risen upon thee.

Isa. 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth (for 1000 years), and (a Dark Age), the gross darkness of the people: but the LORD, (the Word), shall arise upon thee thereafter, and his glory shall be seen in the enlightenment upon thee.

Isa. 60:3 And the Gentiles (of Christianity) shall come to thy
enlightenment (O'Israel), and kings (of political rule) to the brightness of thy (nation's) rising.

Isa. 60:4 Lift up thine eyes you people of Israel round about, and
see: all, (the two billion Christian), they gather themselves together,
they come to thee (in the Promised Land): thy sons (of the Diaspora) shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side (from 1948 forever).

Isa. 60:5 Then, thereafter, thou shalt see (these hoards of Christianity, and ye O'Israel), flow together (with them), and thine
heart shall fear (the truth of Christ in your conversion), and be enlarged (in understanding of scripture); because the abundance of the sea (of unconscious realizations) shall be converted unto thee, the
forces of the Gentiles, (now Christians, two billions in number), shall come unto thee.

Isa. 60:6 The multitude of (their) camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah (Jordan of today) ; all they from Sheba shall come (to pilgrimage in the Holy Land): they shall bring gold and incense (and economic prosperity); and they shall show forth the praises of the LORD.
I wonder if you agree with Almighty God your maker and agree with on His ultimate view on all the militery?:-




Psalm 46:8-10
Come, YOU people, behold the activities of Jehovah, How he has set astonishing events on the earth. 9 He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces; The wagons he burns in the fire. 10 "Give in, YOU people, and know that I am God. I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth."




Revelation 19:11-19
And I saw the heaven opened, and, look! a white horse. And the one seated upon it [JESUS] is called Faithful and True, and he [JESUS] judges and carries on war in righteousness. 12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and upon his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God [JESUS]. 14 Also, the armies that were in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. 15 And out of his mouth there protrudes a sharp long sword, that he may strike the nations with it, and he [JESUS] will shepherd them with a rod of iron. He treads too the winepress of the anger of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 And upon his outer garment, even upon his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. 17 I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he [JESUS] cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven: "Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, 18 that YOU may eat the fleshy parts of kings and the fleshy parts of military commanders and the fleshy parts of strong men and the fleshy parts of horses and of those seated upon them, and the fleshy parts of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great." 19 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage the war with the one seated on the horse [JESUS] and with his [JESUS] army.


Psalm 2:2
The kings of earth take their stand And high officials themselves have massed together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one [JESUS],



Psalm 2:4-9
The very One sitting in the heavens will laugh; Jehovah himself will hold them in derision. 5 At that time he will speak to them in his anger And in his hot displeasure he will disturb them, 6 [Saying:] "I, even I, have installed my king [JESUS] Upon Zion, my holy mountain." 7 Let me refer to the decree of Jehovah; He has said to me: "You are my son; I, today, I have become your father. 8 Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your own possession. 9 You [JESUS] will break them with an iron scepter, As though a potter’s vessel you [JESUS] will dash them to pieces."


Revelation 16:14
to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.




Revelation 16:16
And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Har-Magedon.


This is what GOD says in the Bible and I do not think you or anyone is stronger or more right than he -God- is somhow!!!!


AMEN COME LORD JESUS to clean this earth from the scourge of war and those who do it.


Do you agree with the Almighty God of the universe or a human(s) because it will show just what your faith is in really in??

Barryrob