John 6 does it teach Individual election?

[Blake Reas]

Does John 6 teach predestination? I figured this would start a good discussion. I will comment on what I feel qualified to (which isn't much)

Blake

[Blake Reas]

I guess no one wants to discuss it? Ok, I guess I will just stick to Commentaries :shrug: .

Blake

[Pereynol of Sheer Dread]

What does John 6:45 imply for this question? Opinions?

[Blake Reas]

Today @ 02:47 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=83664#post83664)
pereynol:

What does John 6:45 imply for this question? Opinions?

Sounds like depravity to me, but I think that "most" christians hold to it in some since. Anyone with knowledge of Greek would be interesting in this Conversation.

:help:

Blake

[joelkaki]

To give a jumpstart to the original question: YES. Anyone care to dare to disagree?


Joel

[Solly]

Sorry Blake, but which part of John 6 are you referring to, it's a long chapter.

[Arminian]

Nope.

[Blake Reas]

05-04-2003 @ 06:54 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=87016#post87016)
Arminian:

Nope.


Thanks for the lengthy reply everyone!
:hrm: (sits back with an angry scoul and turns green:yx:) :cir:

[Arminian]

When helko is used figuratively it can have a wide variety of meanings. But when used in connection with teaching (as it is here), the word and others like it were references to coming to the truth through instruction. Ancient literature is full of examples, but here's one from P. Aboth 1:12:

Be of the disciples of Aaron, ....bringing them nigh to the Law.

The idea is not one of force, but of instruction. Jesus all along has been claiming to be God's Word. He is not giving the instruction himself, but is only doing what he sees the Father doing (John 5:18). He is not speaking his own words, but only those of the Father. This is why Jesus says, in John 5:24, "He who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life..." When listening to Christ, they were being taught by the Father. That was the means of drawing.

Jesus was teaching them the Father's Word so that they "might be saved" (John 5:34), but they refused to receive the Word (John 5:38) and thereby were refusing "to come to me that you may have life" (John 5:40).

Jesus said that he has life in himself, and he connects this with the "manna from heaven" imagery. Those Jews expected the bread to fall upon them because of their Jewish heritage, but Jesus used the opportunity to show that the "new" way is of faith. Just like the Israelites at Kadesh-barnea, crossing over is a matter of faith in what God has said. Just like the Israelites in the wilderness, they grumble among themselves. Jesus is the True Promised Land, and the ultimate exodus has begun.

Now Jesus being "lifted up" is mentioned twice. The first time is in John 3 where Jesus says that he came to save the world and not condemn the world, but those who do not believe remain condemned. Here, in John 12, he uses the words again, and relates it to drawing all men to himself. So the lifting up of Christ is his means of teaching all men about the love of God and His salvation. Christ will bring nigh, instruct, and guide all men to himself because he is God's Word. Of course, that doesn't mean that all will listen and therefore come to Christ. This is an invitation.

In a nutshell:

John 7
16Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. 17If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. 18He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.

[ollie]

04-30-2003 @ 09:47 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=83664#post83664)
pereynol:

[quote]What does John 6:45 imply for this question? Opinions?
John 6:45. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


Perhaps it implies what we read further on:

John 6:50. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that A MAN may eat thereof, and not die.
51. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if ANY man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of THE WORLD.

[ollie]

04-29-2003 @ 08:45 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=82558#post82558)
Blake Reas:

Does John 6 teach predestination? I figured this would start a good discussion. I will comment on what I feel qualified to (which isn't much)

Blake
It seems to teach that Christ is the predestined pathway back to God and that path is open to any and all that would hear and learn of God and come to Him through Jesus.

[John Reece]

Today @ 10:10 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=93043#post93043)
ollie:

It seems to teach that Christ is the predestined pathway back to God and that path is open to any and all that would hear and learn of God and come to Him through Jesus.

:thumb:

[Blake Reas]

Yesterday @ 08:57 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=92949#post92949)
Arminian:

When helko is used figuratively it can have a wide variety of meanings. But when used in connection with teaching (as it is here), the word and others like it were references to coming to the truth through instruction. Ancient literature is full of examples, but here's one from P. Aboth 1:12:

Be of the disciples of Aaron, ....bringing them nigh to the Law.

The idea is not one of force, but of instruction. Jesus all along has been claiming to be God's Word. He is not giving the instruction himself, but is only doing what he sees the Father doing (John 5:18). He is not speaking his own words, but only those of the Father. This is why Jesus says, in John 5:24, "He who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life..." When listening to Christ, they were being taught by the Father. That was the means of drawing.

Jesus was teaching them the Father's Word so that they "might be saved" (John 5:34), but they refused to receive the Word (John 5:38) and thereby were refusing "to come to me that you may have life" (John 5:40).

Jesus said that he has life in himself, and he connects this with the "manna from heaven" imagery. Those Jews expected the bread to fall upon them because of their Jewish heritage, but Jesus used the opportunity to show that the "new" way is of faith. Just like the Israelites at Kadesh-barnea, crossing over is a matter of faith in what God has said. Just like the Israelites in the wilderness, they grumble among themselves. Jesus is the True Promised Land, and the ultimate exodus has begun.

Now Jesus being "lifted up" is mentioned twice. The first time is in John 3 where Jesus says that he came to save the world and not condemn the world, but those who do not believe remain condemned. Here, in John 12, he uses the words again, and relates it to drawing all men to himself. So the lifting up of Christ is his means of teaching all men about the love of God and His salvation. Christ will bring nigh, instruct, and guide all men to himself because he is God's Word. Of course, that doesn't mean that all will listen and therefore come to Christ. This is an invitation.

In a nutshell:

John 7
16Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. 17If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. 18He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.


Arminian,

Thanks for the reply, but were you talking about John 6:37 or John 6:44? I am sorry I did not clarify I meant 37.

[mickiel]

But , of course, men still see limited atonement or predestined election, both bred from selfishness in salvation or the elevation of elitism. Here are the verses of salvation seen through eyes that have that hope; 27-God set a seal on Christ to "give eternal life away", so we know eternal life is freely given. vs 33 clearly states that this is given TO THE WORLD. vs. 33 is the answer to vs. 37, God gave the whole world to Christ. In vs. 40 everyone who beholds and believes will have eternal life - compare this with Isaiah 45:23- God himself is speaking, he says EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, EVERY TOUNGE SHALL CONFESS, all men will believe at this time. Now verse 44-no man can come to me unless God draws him- compare this with John 12:32 If i be lifted up i WILL DRAW ALL MEN TO ME, again the focus is for everyone, nor a predestined few, in Phil. 3:21, Jesus has the power
to SUBJECT ALL THINGS to HIMSELF, no things will be left out. vs 45 of John 6-they shall ALL be taught of God, not just the believers in vs 47, all mankind, which includes the believers. In vs 65, eternal life is free, but it is not free to take from God, it is granted by God who is not a respector of persons. God is just and fair, none will be left out.

[Arminian]

Blake,

Thanks for the reply, but were you talking about John 6:37 or John 6:44? I am sorry I did not clarify I meant 37.

My bad.... With my last post in mind, my point was that the Father draws through his word, which is the message of Christ. So when 6:37 is in view, the issue is that God gives his believing covenant people to Christ. The idea of unbelievers is not in view.

Some people misunderstand the use of the neuter singular, which they interpret as a masculine plural. "That which the father has given me" is the closest translation in English.

In John 6:37 and 39 the adjective (pan) is a neuter singular. It is used with the neuter singular relative pronoun (ho). Here the adjective is used substantivally, that is, it does not modify a substantive, but is the substantive.

The use of the neuter is a "collective."

pan ho is used collectively where the masculine pantes hous
would be expected ... the collective aspect of the Father's
gift of believers. (Barrett)

Blass, Debrunner, Funk, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament. makes the point this way:

The neuter is sometimes used with reference to persons if
it is not the individuals but a general quality that is to be
emphasized. (138:1)

The neuter singular, then, may be used of persons but only in the "abstract" sense of the collective whole and not in the "personal" sense of "each." Something other than "each individual" is in view. For that would be expressed with the masculine singular (pas) "each" or "every."

Something other than "each individual" or any "quality" of each individual is in view. For that would still be expressed with the masculine singular (pas) "each" or "every."

a. Jesus is saying, "Though you reject Me, God has given me a people, and that people will come to me."

b. Contrast that with, "Though you reject Me, God has given me people, and those people will come to me."

Note that the latter (b) makes allusion to "individual people" (which would be expressed with the masculine, for they are specific "persons" from the speaker's purview). The former (a) refers to a "collective" whole without any allusion (from the speaker's purview) to specific persons who make up the whole.

So, the former (a) refers to a "collective" whole without any allusion to the "individuals" who make up the whole (which would also use the masculine). That is, the articular masculine is used to designate "the whole" if the specific persons who make up that whole (or their "qualities") were within the purview of the speaker.

The refrence in not to unbelievers that will some day believe.

[RevSteve45]

Blake,

I think it is important to recognize the context in which Jesus is speaking here. Jesus has just finished saying that He is the "Bread of Life." He follows that by saying:

John 6:35, And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. (KJV)

But, despite this, there are people who hear Jesus, and have NOT come to Him. Therefore, Jesus says:

John 6:36, But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. (KJV)

Even though certain people in this group do not believe, it does not negate the fact that God has a group of people who WILL believe upon Jesus:

John 6:37, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (KJV)

My commentary says the following:

"'All that,' (pan ho) is neuter singular, signifying the total group of believers and not individual members of the group. The character or nature of the group is stressed, not the identity.

Jesus expanded this statement in verse 45. The Father attracts, convicts and convinces the individual by means of the Spirit's activity.

"The Father giveth" and the Son receives. It is the total company that the Father gives to the Son. But "him that cometh to me" speaks of the individual members of the group." (The Complete Biblical Library, Volume 5, Study Bible: John, by Robert E. Tourville, M.A., pg. 167)

So I do not believe Jesus is teaching anything concerning predestination or election here. Instead, He is letting those that have not believed on Him, "Even though you do not believe, My Father is giving ("giveth" is in the present tense) Me a group of people, and the individual members of that group who come to Me, I will not cast out."

In His Service,
Steve

[mickiel]

[:

John 6:37, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (KJV)

but this is the verse that deals with predestined salvation. How many people has God given Christ? John 12:32-- all men, 1 Tim. 2:6-all men, John 17:2-authority over all flesh, Luke 3:6- all flesh, Luke 9:56 all men are called, Romans 5:18-all are elected, 1Tim. 4:10- all men, 1 John 4:14--all men in the world are the target of salvation, Luke 2:10- the calling is to all people, 1 John 2:2-all sin is forgiven by Christ the payment for all mens salvation and the debt of their sins, John 1:29- all mens sins are taken away, All men are elected, all men are called, but not everybody will be chosen to help Christ rule.