Total Inability?

[seer]

1 Cor. 2:14

"The unspiritual man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

This is a classic proof text for spiritual inability. Yet there are texts that would seem to modify this view. For instance:

Luke 8:11-14

"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, that they may not believe and be saved. And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away."

Why would or how could the totally depraved "receive the word of God with joy" or have faith (even if it is not a saving faith, which I believe it is) if one is totally depraved when it comes to spiritual truths?

Or Hebrews 6:4,5:

"For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come."

Or how can the totally depraved be spiritually enlightened and become partakers of the Holy Spirit?

[GoBahnsen]

[QUOTE] 1 Cor. 2:14

"The unspiritual man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

This is a classic proof text for spiritual inability. Yet there are texts that would seem to modify this view. For instance:

Luke 8:11-14

"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, that they may not believe and be saved.
Isn't this just the strangest thing to hear? Especially if God "loves everybody" the same way, or with the same love. According to Arminians, God wants everyone to get saved. Yet here comes the Devil saying in a sense "sorry God, but I'll have this one" ((((snatch)))). Yet John the Baptist lies securely in his mother's womb, filled with the Spirit. What a contrast.


And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away." Why did John the Baptist have root? We can't have God being partial, that wouldn't be nice. God wouldn't give John special treatment, that so Calvinistic, it's ugly.



Why would or how could the totally depraved "receive the word of God with joy" or have faith (even if it is not a saving faith, which I believe it is) if one is totally depraved when it comes to spiritual truths?
This is why I believe that it has got to be God Who really makes us to differ. But for God's grace extended to me with a design to really save me, I stand no chance but to be just like the rocky soil type. In fact, I have behaved like them in my pilgrimage. Totally on fire for Jesus, down the road a few years and I'm in a bar trying to pick up a chick. Give me a break. I ought to be on the trash heep of losers. But it seems there is a grace that won't let me go. Praise God!


Or Hebrews 6:4,5:

"For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come."

Or how can the totally depraved be spiritually enlightened and become partakers of the Holy Spirit?
I dealt with this in my tennis court match with Jaltus. I actually think I answered pretty well. I say that humbly, because I also think I stink it up on some answers. But you're assuming that the Hebrews 6 folks actually do depart, but it doesn't say that they do. It merely says that IF they should apostatize, well there is no other sacrifice on this earth that can save them.

But the elect will not apostatize. Certainly there will be apostates, but then they are just those who show their true colors.

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Why would or how could the totally depraved "receive the word of God with joy" or have faith (even if it is not a saving faith, which I believe it is) if one is totally depraved when it comes to spiritual truths?Because they didn't get to the difficult part yet! Who wouldn't want to have all the good parts of the gospel? That doesn't require discernment, though. The discernment comes in accepting the cross, the trouble and hardships that come because of the word. And that must come from God, we can't see that on our own.

Or Hebrews 6:4,5: "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened…"

Or how can the totally depraved be spiritually enlightened and become partakers of the Holy Spirit?I agree that GB's interpretation may be the preferred one here. This is a difficult passage! But speaking of difficult passages, how do you explain the first verse you mentioned? We need to make a synthesis, so how would you explain "he is not able to understand them…"?

Blessings,
Lee

[seer]

Why would or how could the totally depraved "receive the word of God with joy" or have faith (even if it is not a saving faith, which I believe it is) if one is totally depraved when it comes to spiritual truths?




This is why I believe that it has got to be God Who really makes us to differ. But for God's grace extended to me with a design to really save me, I stand no chance but to be just like the rocky soil type. In fact, I have behaved like them in my pilgrimage. Totally on fire for Jesus, down the road a few years and I'm in a bar trying to pick up a chick. Give me a break. I ought to be on the trash heep of losers. But it seems there is a grace that won't let me go. Praise God!

So you agree GB, that the totally depraved can receive the word of God and believe for a while?

[GoBahnsen]

Hi everyone,

Because they didn't get to the difficult part yet! Who wouldn't want to have all the good parts of the gospel? That doesn't require discernment, though. The discernment comes in accepting the cross, the trouble and hardships that come because of the word. And that must come from God, we can't see that on our own.

I agree that GB's interpretation may be the preferred one here. This is a difficult passage! But speaking of difficult passages, how do you explain the first verse you mentioned? We need to make a synthesis, so how would you explain "he is not able to understand them…"?

Blessings,
Lee Lee, good point about, who wouldn't want all the good parts of the Gospel? People like the eternal life part, it's the denying yourself part that goes down hard.

[seer]

Because they didn't get to the difficult part yet! Who wouldn't want to have all the good parts of the gospel? That doesn't require discernment, though. The discernment comes in accepting the cross, the trouble and hardships that come because of the word. And that must come from God, we can't see that on our own.

The point is, even the good things of the Gospel are spiritual things. And they do in fact believe for a while. This is supposed to be impossible.

I agree that GB's interpretation may be the preferred one here. This is a difficult passage! But speaking of difficult passages, how do you explain the first verse you mentioned? We need to make a synthesis, so how would you explain "he is not able to understand them…"?

That we can not, without the aid of God, in our natural state, understand. But that is not the case in the parable:Vs. 12

"The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, that they may not believe and be saved."

The word is in "their heart." So who put the word there? Who in scripture generally puts His word in the hearts of men? God of course.

Vs. 5: "A sower went out to sow HIS SEED; and as he sowed, some fell along the path, and was trodden under foot, and the birds of the air devoured it."

Vs. 11: Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

This is God sowing HIS seed.

[seer]

Isn't this just the strangest thing to hear? Especially if God "loves everybody" the same way, or with the same love. According to Arminians, God wants everyone to get saved. Yet here comes the Devil saying in a sense "sorry God, but I'll have this one" ((((snatch)))). Yet John the Baptist lies securely in his mother's womb, filled with the Spirit. What a contrast.

If you cross reference this with the same teaching in Matthew 13 you will see that men are first responsible for closing "their" eyes. Of course one can not close their eyes unless they were first open. And being chosen for a particular work from birth is no assurance that he will endure to the end. Paul was chosen from his mother's womb, yet he said:

1 Cor.9:

25: Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26: Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air;
27: but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be reprobate.

[seer]

Isn't this just the strangest thing to hear? Especially if God "loves everybody" the same way, or with the same love.

Who knows if God loves all men equally. We do believe that God loves all men enough to give them a real chance at salvation. And remember God loved Israel more than the other nations around them - yet most of the VERY ones He loved were lost. You and I went over those texts in the past GB - remember they are scripture too...

[GoBahnsen]

GB: Isn't this just the strangest thing to hear? Especially if God "loves everybody" the same way, or with the same love.

Who knows if God loves all men equally. We do believe that God loves all men enough to give them a real chance at salvation.
God seems to have this fantastic way of leaving a nation, for the most part, to false religion. What's it like to grow up in a Muslim nation, be taught Christians are the enemy? All your life you are taught to hate. You are praised for being a hater. You work at hating. Finally you serve your god by blowing yourself up and killing as many Jews and Christians as you can in the process.

What "real chance" did he have to say "hey mom and dad, I think I want to serve the Christian God instead of Allah." I'll tell, I think he has far less a real chance then I have of becoming a Muslim. Because I can study Islam here in America, but he can't even find a copy of the Bible and it's outlawed.

Are we to conclude that God loves him? I can't say I understand all this, but this son of Ishmael is outside of God's covenant and from the very nature of his whole life, it doesn't appear God has any design or purpose to change that fact. Now if God purposes to, He will save that Muslim. God is saving Muslims in Muslim countries. Very few. To them I say, God loves you. Look at what He has done for you! But I can't say that God loves all of them.

So no seer, I think your comment about God giving all men a real chance to be saved-- is pie in the sky Arminianism. It's what you people want to believe, but it doesn't square with redemptive history or real life. It's the door of the Ark open to no one in particular, just for those lucky enough to find it.

[seer]

God seems to have this fantastic way of leaving a nation, for the most part, to false religion. What's it like to grow up in a Muslim nation, be taught Christians are the enemy? All your life you are taught to hate. You are praised for being a hater. You work at hating. Finally you serve your god by blowing yourself up and killing as many Jews and Christians as you can in the process.

I believe that God is sovereign enough to order the world so that those who would/could freely believe will hear the gospel. In other words if man in a Muslim nation never hears the gospel and dies without Christ - that is so because God knew that he would never repent in the first place. I was born in a Christian nation because God knew I would freely respond to His overtures. Simple...

[GoBahnsen]

God seems to have this fantastic way of leaving a nation, for the most part, to false religion. What's it like to grow up in a Muslim nation, be taught Christians are the enemy? All your life you are taught to hate. You are praised for being a hater. You work at hating. Finally you serve your god by blowing yourself up and killing as many Jews and Christians as you can in the process.

I believe that God is sovereign enough to order the world so that those who would/could freely believe will hear the gospel. In other words if man in a Muslim nation never hears the gospel and dies without Christ - that is so because God knew that he would never repent in the first place. I was born in a Christian nation because God knew I would freely respond to His overtures. Simple... (emphasis mine)
Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. I'm really glad you said this seer, because it is just the problem with Arminianism. God knows who the good guys are, the ones who are willing. He doesn't make them that way, or bring them to that place, they just are that way. God knows it, so He plans special places for them to be born.

This is just really bad Arminian stuff, and I wish it would come out in the open more often and as clearly as it has here. Thank you seer. Now... I hope you will turn from it one day, but if you're going to represent non-Reformed Theology, then this is what I like to see. Blatant freewill boasting.

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Seer: … even the good things of the Gospel are spiritual things. And they do in fact believe for a while. This is supposed to be impossible.Yes, the good things are spiritual, and they are not really understood, unbelievers do think they get to "feast in the morning," instead of "for strength and not for drunkenness" (Ecc. 10:17). Their focus is on getting, not on giving. So their belief is mistaken, too! "Gollum the Great! Eat fish every day…"

Lee: how would you explain "he is not able to understand them…"?

Seer: That we can not, without the aid of God, in our natural state, understand.But doesn't this imply that only those in a "supernatural state" can understand them? Implying conversion. I agree with what you said! I think that's total depravity.

Seer: "The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, that they may not believe and be saved."

The word is in "their heart." So who put the word there? Who in scripture generally puts His word in the hearts of men? God of course.But the life is in the seed here! And having God's living word in your heart doesn't mean your heart has come alive. I think the parable is showing that it is the soil that has to change, in addition to the seed being present, implying again, a needed conversion, the life in God's word has to change the heart:

Jeremiah 4:3-4 This is what the Lord says to the men of Judah and to Jerusalem: "Break up your unplowed ground and do not sow among thorns. Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, circumcise your hearts..."

James 1:18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth…

So the word has to change the heart, as well as come into it, and this is God's work, we are not able to do this, "by His will He brought us forth…"

Blessings,
Lee

[Ormly]

(emphasis mine)
Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. I'm really glad you said this seer, because it is just the problem with Arminianism. God knows who the good guys are, the ones who are willing. He doesn't make them that way, or bring them to that place, they just are that way. God knows it, so He plans special places for them to be born.Whoa - Horsie:lol: !! I thought all this was for God's good pleasure??! Now you are saying He doesn't make them that way? I thought He did that He could, somehow, get some glory out of it!!?

[seer]

Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. I'm really glad you said this seer, because it is just the problem with Arminianism. God knows who the good guys are, the ones who are willing. He doesn't make them that way, or bring them to that place, they just are that way. God knows it, so He plans special places for them to be born.

Well yes, God knew who would freely respond to His overtures so He sovereignly arranges the world and history so that they hear the gospel. Works for me.



This is just really bad Arminian stuff, and I wish it would come out in the open more often and as clearly as it has here. Thank you seer. Now... I hope you will turn from it one day, but if you're going to represent non-Reformed Theology, then this is what I like to see. Blatant freewill boasting.

Grow up GB, where is the boasting in receiving a free gift?

[Ormly]

Hi everyone,

Yes, the good things are spiritual, and they are not really understood, unbelievers do think they get to "feast in the morning," instead of "for strength and not for drunkenness" (Ecc. 10:17). Their focus is on getting, not on giving. So their belief is mistaken, too! "Gollum the Great! Eat fish every day…"

But doesn't this imply that only those in a "supernatural state" can understand them? Implying conversion. I agree with what you said! I think that's total depravity.

But the life is in the seed here! And having God's living word in your heart doesn't mean your heart has come alive. I think the parable is showing that it is the soil that has to change, in addition to the seed being present, implying again, a needed conversion, the life in God's word has to change the heart:
Can you demonstrate that conversion means regeneration? I don't think so. Therefore "conversion" doesn't mean something supernatural.

[seer]

Yes, the good things are spiritual, and they are not really understood, unbelievers do think they get to "feast in the morning," instead of "for strength and not for drunkenness" (Ecc. 10:17). Their focus is on getting, not on giving. So their belief is mistaken, too! "Gollum the Great! Eat fish every day…"

Lee: how would you explain "he is not able to understand them…"?

Seer: That we can not, without the aid of God, in our natural state, understand.



But doesn't this imply that only those in a "supernatural state" can understand them? Implying conversion. I agree with what you said! I think that's total depravity.

But like I said, these men still received these spiritual truths. And born again Christians like those in Corinth and even the Apostles were often not understanding spiritual truths. My point being is that often Calvinists see these things as black and white - that men are either all carnal or all spiritual. I do not think that is the case, as shown with the parable under discussion.

But the life is in the seed here! And having God's living word in your heart doesn't mean your heart has come alive. I think the parable is showing that it is the soil that has to change, in addition to the seed being present, implying again, a needed conversion, the life in God's word has to change the heart:

Jeremiah 4:3-4 This is what the Lord says to the men of Judah and to Jerusalem: "Break up your unplowed ground and do not sow among thorns. Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, circumcise your hearts..."

James 1:18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth…

So the word has to change the heart, as well as come into it, and this is God's work, we are not able to do this, "by His will He brought us forth…"

First, I think that most Calvinists would deny that God puts His word in the hearts of the "reprobate." Second, as your quote from Jeremiah shows - we must do something. We must break up our unplowed ground and circumcise our hearts. It is not a unilateral act of God. Third, why would God sow His word in the hearts of men if not for the intent of conversion?

[Ormly]

Man has the ability to comprehend without regeneration.

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Ormly: Can you demonstrate that conversion means regeneration? I don't think so. Therefore "conversion" doesn't mean something supernatural.I thought everyone would agree that conversion is supernatural, though:

John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Seer: But like I said, these men still received these spiritual truths. And born again Christians like those in Corinth and even the Apostles were often not understanding spiritual truths.They received them, but in a mistaken way, I would say, both the unbelievers and the Corinthians:

Romans 2:20-21 … you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth--you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself?

Seer: often Calvinists see these things as black and white - that men are either all carnal or all spiritual. I do not think that is the case, as shown with the parable under discussion.Well, there is a real division, even in this parable, but I agree that conversion is a process. But this is kind of getting off-topic…

Seer: I think that most Calvinists would deny that God puts His word in the hearts of the "reprobate."Whether they do or not, I think they would agree (would you not agree, too?) that the heart change is a critical part of conversion, as well as the word being sown there. The seed does not change the soil, in this parable! But the heart does need to change, I think that is an implication here.

Jeremiah 4:3-4 This is what the Lord says to the men of Judah and to Jerusalem: "Break up your unplowed ground and do not sow among thorns. Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, circumcise your hearts..."


Seer: as your quote from Jeremiah shows - we must do something.Yes, something we cannot do! We can't plow up or circumcise our hearts, God has to do this:

Deuteronomy 30:6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

Romans 2:29 … circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.

Thus we are unable!

Seer: Third, why would God sow His word in the hearts of men if not for the intent of conversion?I believe that is God's ultimate intent, though I would choose other passages, which I think would make this point in a stronger way:

Acts 17:30 but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Ormly: Man has the ability to comprehend without regeneration.That's the conclusion being discussed, though! I think Scripture says otherwise:

John 8:43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.

It's not that they just don't choose to understand, they can't…

Blessings,
Lee

[semmie]

Man has the ability to comprehend without regeneration.shazaam!!!!


lee...how can someone (unregenerate) receive spiritual truths in a mistaken fashion??? care to explain?

[Ormly]

Hi everyone,

I thought everyone would agree that conversion is supernatural, though:

John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.So to be converted to your way of thinking I'd need something supernatural to happen in my life? ----- You might have a point.:wink: --- but I don't think so. Something, however, would have to be lacking in my thinking. But anyway you look at it it has to do with believing something that will ultimately take me in some direction. But that's not regeneration, now is it?

They received them, but in a mistaken way, I would say, both the unbelievers and the Corinthians:

Romans 2:20-21 … you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth--you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself?

Well, there is a real division, even in this parable, but I agree that conversion is a process. But this is kind of getting off-topic…Your whole response so far, is off topic. I don't have a clue what it is you are trying to say with those verses except I guess it is has something to do with the supernatural one should expect in order to be converted.---- I don't know.

Whether they do or not, I think they would agree (would you not agree, too?) that the heart change is a critical part of conversion, as well as the word being sown there. The seed does not change the soil, in this parable! But the heart does need to change, I think that is an implication here.Agree to what? Conversion is a change of mind/heart. I won't agree to anything more.

Yes, something we cannot do! We can't plow up or circumcise our hearts, God has to do this No way. You are to do that after you are regenerated. "Put off the old man...". How about: "crucify the flesh..", rememeber?
Deuteronomy 30:6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

Romans 2:29 … circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.

Thus we are unable!:But it all begins AFTER regeneration and is conditional on the Great Commandent. Then God is able to do the exceeding abundantly in your life otherwise you're spinning your wheels.

I believe that is God's ultimate intent, though I would choose other passages, which I think would make this point in a stronger way:

Acts 17:30 but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.God's ultimate intent?? You're confusing me with that but your verse above should speak volumes to you since you have already stated they are NOT able to repent because, in your mind, it requires something supernatural. But there it is and you posted it, not me. Repentance is but a turning around which is done with the heart/mind not something from outside man.

Again, repentance is but a turning 180 degrees from the direction you are going. Does it take a regeneration to be convinced? Is that what regeneration is for or would a simple change of mind to do thing? -- a being persuaded you are going in the wrong direction by hearing something that persuades/convicts? Sorry, but the supernatural isn't needed for that in most cases or unless you are repobate, for a realization of error in direction. Granted, God can engineer circumstances to make us willing to be willing. I can vouch for that. But there is no supernatural indwelling at the outset that one must possess that faith be the thing that enables unto a believing mind, but rather it is the other way around i.e., believing with the mind comes first and then the faith which brings regeneration; the indwelling and we are then born again. Faith comes how? -- By hearing. Faith does not bring hearing that brings faith. Hearing is something left to us, that we do. Pay attention that you hear accurately especially after you are regenerated. You will know you have received something from Christ when you regenerated. You will know you are saved.

That's the conclusion being discussed, though! I think Scripture says otherwise:

John 8:43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.

It's not that they just don't choose to understand, they can't…They were unregenerate! However they were converted!


Why were they unregenerate?

:smile:

[themuzicman]

Um... 1 Cor 2:14 is talking about the Corinthians, who were already saved at the time this letter was written.

Michael

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

how can someone (unregenerate) receive spiritual truths in a mistaken fashion???Like Paul says about himself, and the people he was speaking to:

Acts 22:3 "Under Gamaliel I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers and was just as zealous for God as any of you are today."

Lee: … would you not agree, too? that the heart change is a critical part of conversion, as well as the word being sown there. The seed does not change the soil, in this parable! But the heart does need to change, I think that is an implication here.

Ormly: Conversion is a change of mind/heart. I won't agree to anything more.Yes, and the heart change is needed, that is what I am after here, as well as the presence of the word, the soil has got to change, as well.

Lee: We can't plow up or circumcise our hearts, God has to do this …

Ormly: You are to do that after you are regenerated. "Put off the old man...". How about: "crucify the flesh..", remember?But how can we ourselves do this? It simply can't be done by trying. You just can't grab the old man, and put him in the closet. No, God has to do this, as well as change the heart at conversion:

Romans 8:13 If by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live…

Acts 17:30 but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Ormly: but your verse above should speak volumes to you since you have already stated they are NOT able to repent because, in your mind, it requires something supernatural.Yes, they are not able, yet they are commanded to repent. The first two commands are to love God with all the heart, and our neighbor! Which must sum up repentance. But love comes from God (1 Jn. 4:7), so how can we do this on our own? We are unable.

Ormly: Does it take a regeneration to be convinced?Yes, it does!

Acts 16:14 The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.

Ormly: Faith comes how? -- By hearing. Faith does not bring hearing that brings faith. Hearing is something left to us, that we do.But hearing has a cause, too! "Hearing comes by the word of Christ" (Rom. 10:17). "Hearing!" We can't hear, until Jesus removes our deafness first, thus first life, then faith and repentance. If hearing has a cause, then it's not something we can do on our own.

John 8:43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.

Lee: It's not that they just don't choose to understand, they can't…

Ormly: They were unregenerate! However they were converted! Why were they unregenerate…I'm not sure I understand, yes, I agree they were unregenerate, and therefore they couldn't understand. They were unable…

Michael: 1 Cor 2:14 is talking about the Corinthians, who were already saved at the time this letter was written.I don't think this verse means them, though!

1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit…

1 Corinthians 2:12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.

Thus those who don't have God's Spirit, cannot understand, and this must mean unbelievers.

Blessings,
Lee

[Ormly]

Hi everyone,

Like Paul says about himself, and the people he was speaking to:

Acts 22:3 "Under Gamaliel I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers and was just as zealous for God as any of you are today."So where was the 'spiritual truth' Paul exhibited BEFORE he regeneration? Where was his 'accurate' knowledge of Christ displayed when he was persecuting the Church?
Yes, and the heart change is needed, that is what I am after here, as well as the presence of the word, the soil has got to change, as well.What do mean "as well"? Let not minimise that part of it because that is what comes first.---- in the mind/heart as in: "I've had a change of heart in the matter". That's how conversion begins and someone comes around to your way of thinking. God doesn't just change the old heart. It is from man's own need, that man does that. God gives a new heart from a new nature if after man's conversion to a new way of thinking he enters into the new birth God calls him to: A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. Ezekiel 36:26 (KJV) Many are called ---few choose.
Lee: We can't plow up or circumcise our hearts, God has to do this …
Ormly: You are to do that after you are regenerated. "Put off the old man...". How about: "crucify the flesh..", remember
But how can we ourselves do this? It simply can't be done by trying. You just can't grab the old man, and put him in the closet. No, God has to do this, as well as change the heart at conversionWe can't regenerate ourselves. The message of Christ must first be responded to and received with gladness. It's that part man can do on his own, unless he is reprobate. Which what Calvin would have us all believe..However, beyond regeneration involves a love affair with Christ that motivates man to put off the old man. His will is to become God's will. That takes an effort on man's part that God rewards with, Himself. That's called "Grace". Paul sez: "work out your own salvation...."

Romans 8:13 If by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live…
In the above verse Paul is speaking to those already born again; already regenerated.
Yes, they are not able, yet they are commanded to repent. The first two commands are to love God with all the heart, and our neighbor! Which must sum up repentance. But love comes from God (1 Jn. 4:7), so how can we do this on our own? We are unable.No. It only sums up the great commandmant that the converted [to only the teachings of Christ] will attempt to succeed at with their well meaning efforts from self-effort and the Christian psychology books that promote it. The regenerated person will succeed because he has received from Christ that which is needed to perform the command i.e., a new heart born from a new nature called rebirth which is intrincally linked to the Father because it is the very nature of Christ from which His Character is to progressively show forth. That's called "growing in Christ"; becoming a son.
Does it take a regeneration to be convinced?
Yes, it does!
Acts 16:14 The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.
Wake up! It is Lydia you speak of and, of course, you know she was already a believer in God, right? It says so. So Paul was giving her the reason for the hope that was already in her, that it be made complete in Christ. But hearing has a cause, too! "Hearing comes by the word of Christ" (Rom. 10:17). "Hearing!" We can't hear,Speak for yourself. The woman with the issue of blood heard and she wasn't regenerated.
... until Jesus removes our deafness first, thus first life, then faith and repentance.Is that what happened with the many blind men, lepers and the woman with the issue of blood that were healed? Their faith made the whole. They had heard and NONE were regenerated by any new birth before hand that enabled them to hear.
If hearing has a cause, then it's not something we can do on our own.
Sure hearing has a cause. It's caused by the two things strapped to the side of our head. Simple as that. ---- unless you have an agenda or sickness that stops up them up John 8:43 Why is my language not clear to you Because you are unable to hear what I say. Lee: It's not that they just don't choose to understand, they can't… Ormly: They were unregenerate! However they were converted! Why were they unregenerate.
I'm not sure I understand, yes, I agree they were unregenerate, and therefore they couldn't understand. They were unable…I don't think this verse means them, though!. Oh, you don't? Why not? It's clear Jesus is speaking to only His disciples.
This is where your Calvinist agenda takes precedence. You must learn to recognize the symptoms. You are forced to believe they were regenerated by some other means and that's false doctrine. If you don't believe that you will then say it's a mystery and we can't know for sure. You chose the option that Jesus was MAYBE speaking to others and not the disciples....... Point is, Jesus had not yet gone to the cross for anyone to be regenerated but His disciples WERE CONVERTED to His way, that is why they followed Him.
1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit…
1 Corinthians 2:12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
Thus those who don't have God's Spirit, cannot understand, and this must mean unbelievers.
Yes?? Or the "just converted" nominal Christian not willing to be an all out disciple of Christ, but rather to his religion that comforts him by whispering sweet nothings in his ears --- that can't hear. :wink:

[lee_merrill]

Hi Ormly,

Ormly: So where was the 'spiritual truth' Paul exhibited BEFORE he regeneration? Where was his 'accurate' knowledge of Christ displayed when he was persecuting the Church?No, it wasn't real understanding, though he had thought he had received the Scripture, he probably had the first five books of the Bible memorized!

Lee: The first two commands are to love God with all the heart, and our neighbor! Which must sum up repentance. But love comes from God (1 Jn. 4:7), so how can we do this on our own? We are unable.

Ormly: The regenerated person will succeed because he has received from Christ that which is needed to perform the command …Yes, then the unconverted cannot do this, and thus they cannot repent on their own. Love fulfills the law, and no love, no fulfillment of the law:

1 John 3:10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

Lee: hearing has a cause, too! "Hearing comes by the word of Christ" (Rom. 10:17).

Ormly: The woman with the issue of blood heard and she wasn't regenerated.Yes, I agree that not everyone who hears with their ears really hears. But everyone who does really hear, their hearing has this cause, it is not an ability we have, Christ has to give the hearing:

Isaiah 42:18 Hear, you deaf, and look, you blind, that you may see!

This is spoken of God's servants. How much more do unbelievers need this, then?

John 8:43 Why is my language not clear to you Because you are unable to hear what I say.

Ormly: It's clear Jesus is speaking to only His disciples.I think he is speaking to unbelievers:

John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil…

1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit…


1 Corinthians 2:12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.


Lee: Thus those who don't have God's Spirit, cannot understand, and this must mean unbelievers.

Ormly: Or the "just converted" nominal Christian not willing to be an all out disciple …No, those who do not have the Spirit are not Christians:

Romans 8:9 And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Thus Paul is speaking about unbelievers in 1 Cor. 2, when he says people without the Spirit cannot understand…

Blessings,
Lee

[Ormly]

Hi Ormly,





Ormly: So where was the 'spiritual truth' Paul exhibited BEFORE he regeneration? Where was his 'accurate' knowledge of Christ displayed when he was persecuting the Church? No, it wasn't real understanding, though he had thought he had received the Scripture, he probably had the first five books of the Bible memorized!




Oh, I see. It wasn't really understanding. I gotcha. Well who made that determination? MacArthur, because the Bible indicates otherwise. Perhaps Gameila only knew those books to.Lee: The first two commands are to love God with all the heart, and our neighbor! Which must sum up repentance. But love comes from God (1 Jn. 4:7), so how can we do this on our own? We are unable.





Ormly: The regenerated person will succeed because he has received from Christ that which is needed to perform the command …



Yes, then the unconverted cannot do this, and thus they cannot repent on their own. Love fulfills the law, and no love, no fulfillment of the law:You have yet to explain the woman with the issue as well as others. You can't explain them away except by twisting scripture. Her faith made her whole and that was before regeneration was made possible. How did she get her faith? Read that part again. It's basic stuff. Add to your understanding Titus 2.11.







Yes, then the unconverted cannot do this, and thus they cannot repent on their own. Love fulfills the law, and no love, no fulfillment of the law



1 John 3:10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

Doesn't even apply. ...sorry. The unconverted can repent and be converted.



1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit…


1 Corinthians 2:12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.


Lee: Thus those who don't have God's Spirit, cannot understand, and this must mean unbelievers.

Ormly: Or the "just converted" nominal Christian not willing to be an all out disciple …


Yes, I agree that not everyone who hears with their ears really hears.Really? And on what do you suppose that? The woman heard.


But everyone who does really hear, their hearing has this cause, it is not an ability we have, Christ has to give the hearing:
And from 1 John we can see that the whole thing can be resisted by the born again who can make a willful choice to walk away. Check out Heb, 6, first the first time. Again, John is speaking to the ALREADY BORN AGAIN. You need to make proper distinctions here if you want understanding.

Lee: hearing has a cause, too! "Hearing comes by the word of Christ" (Rom. 10:17).

Ormly: The woman with the issue of blood heard and she wasn't regenerated

Isaiah 42:18 Hear, you deaf, and look, you blind, that you may see!

This is spoken of God's servants. How much more do unbelievers need this, then?

I think he is speaking to unbelievers:
Well how in tthe world can they hear unless they are regenerated!!?? Where was the word of Christ in Isaiah!!??


John 8:43 Why is my language not clear to you Because you are unable to hear what I say.

Ormly: It's clear Jesus is speaking to only His disciples

I think he is speaking to unbelievers:
John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil I stand corrected. Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees. In this you are right.


However, according to your persuasion his disciples could not hear of the deeper things of Christ to which I would agree because they were unregnerate. But because they were of the Father [made righteous through faith] they could hear to the degree sufficient for their conversion to Christ. Conversion it could only be because regeneration was not yet made available. They could only follow Him without having His life indwelling them. I know a lot of people like that today.







[quote]1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit…






1 Corinthians 2:12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.


Lee: Thus those who don't have God's Spirit, cannot understand, and this must mean unbelievers.

Ormly: Or the "just converted" nominal Christian not willing to be an all out disciple …



No, those who do not have the Spirit are not Christians:




Romans 8:9 And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Psalm 51:13 (NASB-U)
Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners will be converted to You.

This verse is probably the best since it speaks of conversion without regeneration quite clearly.
John 12:40 (NASB-U)
"He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and BE CONVERTED AND I heal them."



Thus Paul is speaking about unbelievers in 1 Cor. 2, when he says people without the Spirit cannot understand…
I don't agree. He is speaking to the unregenerate; those not born again; those converted only in their minds to the principles of Christ that we see in abundance in our mainstream churches today. Why do think those churches are failing?

[lee_merrill]

Hi Ormly,

Lee: Love fulfills the law, and no love, no fulfillment of the law…

Ormly: You have yet to explain the woman with the issue as well as others. You can't explain them away except by twisting scripture. Her faith made her whole and that was before regeneration was made possible. How did she get her faith? Read that part again. It's basic stuff. Add to your understanding Titus 2.11.Well, you skipped my point here, though! Just giving me a difficulty does not answer the question I raised! "Your fence is down over here." "Well your fence is down over there!" But that doesn't mean our fences are fine, we both have work to do.

So how can an unbeliever repent, and fulfill the law, if love fulfills the law, and love comes from God?

Now about the woman who was made whole, yes she was told "your faith has saved you," and I would put the order as conversion / regeneration -> faith -> salvation. No mention is made of regeneration in this account, thus I don't think this is the place to look to decide this, nor, I would say, is Titus 2:11, here it is "grace that brings salvation," and again, regeneration is not mentioned.

Lee: I agree that not everyone who hears with their ears really hears.

Ormly: And on what do you suppose that? The woman heard.Yes, and was saved. Some heard Jesus, and were not saved, though.

Lee: … everyone who does really hear, their hearing has this cause, it is not an ability we have, Christ has to give the hearing …

Ormly: And from 1 John we can see that the whole thing can be resisted by the born again who can make a willful choice to walk away. Check out Heb, 6, first the first time. Again, John is speaking to the ALREADY BORN AGAIN. You need to make proper distinctions here if you want understanding.I was referring to Romans 10:17! "John is speaking," do you mean 1 John? The gospel? I'm not sure what you are saying here, I was just trying to point out that hearing has a cause, that's all I meant, thus we do not have the ability to hear, on our own:

Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Isaiah 42:18 Hear, you deaf, and look, you blind, that you may see!

Lee: This is spoken of God's servants. How much more do unbelievers need this, then?


Ormly: Well how in the world can they hear unless they are regenerated!!?? Where was the word of Christ in Isaiah!!??Christ's word was being spoken to them! "Hear, you deaf!" To give them hearing, even for God's servants, thus unbelievers need this, too, even more.

Lee: … those who do not have the Spirit are not Christians:

Romans 8:9 And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.


Thus Paul is speaking about unbelievers in 1 Cor. 2, when he says people without the Spirit cannot understand…

Ormly: This verse is probably the best since it speaks of conversion without regeneration quite clearly:


John 12:40 (NASB-U) "He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and BE CONVERTED AND I heal them."I would say in response that "be converted" is a word that usually means "turn," though it can refer to an inward change, too. But the usual meaning is simply "turn" (ESV, NIV, NKJV have this translation). So I don't think this verse can be a clear proof one way or the other, the meaning can be either way, and the Hebrew word is similar, in Isa. 6:10, it can mean either "return" or again, simply "turn."

Blessings,
Lee

[rhutchin]

I believe that God is sovereign enough to order the world so that those who would/could freely believe will hear the gospel. In other words if man in a Muslim nation never hears the gospel and dies without Christ - that is so because God knew that he would never repent in the first place. I was born in a Christian nation because God knew I would freely respond to His overtures. Simple...

Seer has raised a critical point and it is the chicken or egg issue.

It is a true statement to say, as Seer does, that, "I was born in a Christian nation because God knew I would freely respond to His overtures."

There are some questions raised by this.

1. If the believer responds to the overtures of God, what about the unbeliever? Did he not respond to God's overtures or did God not make overtures to him? All we know for certain is that God made overtures to the believer otherwise he would not be a believer. Since God's overtures (assuming they were made) are not sufficient to cause the unbeliever to believe, were they ever intended to cause the unbeliever to believe?

2. Does God know that a believer will respond to His overtures or does He know that His overtures will elicit a response to believe? If God knows who will believe, then He must know that His overtures are sufficient to gain that outcome. The question is whether God knows His overtures will be successful because He designs them that way or does He know that His overtures will be successful only after He knows that a person becomes a believer? If God really wants to save someone (as in the case of Paul) will He be denied? If God does not want to save a person, and God is the one who makes the overture to that person, can that person be saved?

The Calvinist point is that God is in absolute control of the salvation of people. Even the Arminians agree that God must initiate some action to save a person or that person cannot be saved. If a person believes, it can be attributed to something that God did. If a person does not believe, can it be attributed to something that God did not do? The Calvinist says, Yes. The Arminian says that the person decides not to believe, but that response merely has the Arminian avoiding the issue.

[Ormly]

The Calvinist says, Yes. The Arminian says that the person decides not to believe, but that response merely has the Arminian avoiding the issue.

Nonsense! The ABILITY to believe is God given grace from creation per Titus 2.11 & Jn 1.9. What else does one need but the ability to choose that he reveal love and allegiance?

[Ormly]

Ormly: You have yet to explain the woman with the issue as well as others.
You can't explain them away except by twisting scripture. Her faith made her whole and that was before regeneration was made possible. How did she get her faith? Read that part again. It's basic stuff. Add to your understanding Titus 2.11.
Well, you skipped my point here, though! Just giving me a difficulty does not answer the question I raised! "Your fence is down over here." "Well your fence is down over there!" But that doesn't mean our fences are fine, we both have work to do.You are doing your best to side-track and distort.

So how can an unbeliever repent, and fulfill the law, if love fulfills the law, and love comes from God?
What Law do you have in mind that seems to be short-circuiting your thinking that I must respond to? But since you seem to be implying the law of Moses to your "love" analogy, may I ask how they repented in the OT given they had no "love" or "fullfillment of the law" to enable them.


Now about the woman who was made whole, yes she was told "your faith has saved you," and I would put the order as conversion / regeneration -> faith -> salvation. No mention is made of regeneration in this account, thus I don't think this is the place to look to decide this, nor, I would say, is Titus 2:11, here it is "grace that brings salvation," and again, regeneration is not mentioned. So what? Sufficient is it that PROPER distinctions can be made. You say: "No mention is made of regeneration in this account, thus I don't think this is the place to look to decide this,…" You are correct when stumbling over the regeneration issue with the woman since it wasn’t possible and there is no other place to look. So conversion is a "stand-alone" issue in the story. She saw, she heard, she believed and was converted by her senses and need.. It seems to me she was only exercising her God given ability[s] to believe per Titus 2.11 and Jn. 1.9.

Ok, since regeneration was not yet possible she was therefore converted/turned by her faith in what she saw and heard and that was all she needed to be made whole i.e., faith came by her hearing and "justification by [her] faith", remember? -- And Jesus was standing right there to do the "justifying" and while He was at it, He healed her.. How 'bout that?! That’s the logical conclusion any one of sound mind would conclude. ----

So conversion /regeneration CAN"T be one in the same, can it? – Unless it just so happens that way with some believers who are so persuaded. ---- Moving on: Your analogy would be most correct if read as: [one’s] faith, conversion-turning/salvation, regeneration, faith OF Christ in seed form. Think about it.



Lee: I agree that not everyone who hears with their ears really hears.

Ormly: And on what do you suppose that? The woman heard.

Yes, and was saved. Some heard Jesus, and were not saved, though.No! She was only "justified" by her faith. Jesus had not concluded His mission that would bring salvation to anyone and satisfy the law, replacing it with "Love". These are distinctions that must be made that we solve some of the so-called mysteries of the Bible. Again, at this point in time regeneration wasn’t possible. [see Jn 20.22 for the first instance regeneration happening]



Lee: … everyone who does really hear, their hearing has this cause, it is not an ability we have, Christ has to give the hearing …

Ormly: And from 1 John we can see that the whole thing can be resisted by the born again who can make a willful choice to walk away. Check out Heb, 6, first the first time. Again, John is speaking to the ALREADY BORN AGAIN. You need to make proper distinctions here if you want understanding

I was referring to Romans 10:17! "John is speaking," do you mean 1 John? The gospel? I'm not sure what you are saying here, I was just trying to point out that hearing has a cause, that's all I meant, thus we do not have the ability to hear, on our own:


Well, the woman heard on her own. She was only excercising her God given ability to do so. Her cause stemmed from her need, would you say? Needs and circumstances usually create a lot of causes that make us hear. Good parenting will reveal that. Father is in the business of good parenting.
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. OK. Good, fine. The woman heard and was made whole because she believed the report. She did that on her own.. Preachers are what that’s for.. That takes care of Romans 10.17. --- moving on:
Isaiah 42:18 Hear, you deaf, and look, you blind, that you may see!

Lee: This is spoken of God's servants. How much more do unbelievers need this, then?


Ormly: Well how in the world can they hear unless they are regenerated!!?? Where was the word of Christ in Isaiah!!??


Christ's word was being spoken to them! "Hear, you deaf!" To give them hearing, even for God's servants, thus unbelievers need this, too, even more.


In Isaiah!!!??

Lee: … those who do not have the Spirit are not Christians:

Romans 8:9 And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.


Thus Paul is speaking about unbelievers in 1 Cor. 2, when he says people without the Spirit cannot understand…

Ormly: This verse is probably the best since it speaks of conversion without regeneration quite clearly:

John 12:40 (NASB-U) "He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and BE CONVERTED AND I heal them."

To those who refuse the good news after repeatedly hearing it God will do such a thing and He did.


I would say in response that "be converted" is a word that usually means "turn," though it can refer to an inward change, too. But the usual meaning is simply "turn" (ESV, NIV, NKJV have this translation). So I don't think this verse can be a clear proof one way or the other, the meaning can be either way, and the Hebrew word is similar, in Isa. 6:10, it can mean either "return" or again, simply "turn."

Good! That’s all it means though, correct? You said it, I didn’t. ---- Therefore it doesn’t mean regeneration! Glad to see you come around. :smile: :smile:



The HTML doesn't seem to be working to well. None of my post should be in BOLD type.:blush:

[rhutchin]

rhutchin
The Calvinist says, Yes. The Arminian says that the person decides not to believe, but that response merely has the Arminian avoiding the issue.

Ormly
Nonsense! The ABILITY to believe is God given grace from creation per Titus 2.11 & Jn 1.9. What else does one need but the ability to choose that he reveal love and allegiance?

We have two true statements--

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people. (Titus)

The true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. (John)

It is also true that the heart is deceitful and desparately wicked. (Jeremiah)

This creates the problem of Total Depravity -- No one has a desire to believe. On an intellectual level, people are aware of Christ and of salvation. Christ gave light to all so none dare deny that they are sinners. People are able to understand the Scriptures on an intellectual level. In theory, all should believe, yet none have a desire to believe. The great example is Paul. Intellectually, he knew as much about the Scriptures as any person could. He had no desire to accept Christ until Christ confronted him on the road to Damascus. Had Christ not taken that action, would Paul have believed?

You ask a good question --What else does one need but the ability to choose that he reveal love and allegiance? The answer is, Nothing. In theory, all should choose Christ. None do absent God making overtures.

[Ormly]

We have two true statements--

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people. (Titus)

The true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. (John)What do you mean WAS coming into the world. It was is the world from the beginning. He was called the "Word". He was the light that shined into every man ever born.

John 1:9 (NASB-U)
There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

John 1:9 (KJV)
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

It is also true that the heart is deceitful and desparately wicked. (Jeremiah)

[quote]Jeremiah 17:9-10 (KJV)
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.Seems Jeremiah wasn't desperately wicked -- or Job, Abraham, etc. Shall I go on or would you rather have the opportunity to narrow the selection down as to who's heart was desperately wicked? But than the perhaps God was referring to man in a more general sense when He made that remark. Of course if you have a pet doctrine you wish to protect you will strongly disagree and throw out a few curve balls. I hope you won't do that.:smile:


I posted the scriptures so that comparisons can be made and your twist on them can be pointed out with little commentary.

This creates the problem of Total Depravity -- No one has a desire to believe.Nonsense from the git-go. Abraham had a desire and others, adnausm. Give that up.

On an intellectual level, people are aware of Christ and of salvation. Christ gave light to all so none dare deny that they are sinners.Why not dare to deny if you reject the light? Bit of a free choice you speak of, I'm afraid. Also it speaks of resisting that which you believe can't be resisted since giving light is to speak to one's conscience, not his intellect, as you would have it. Intellect alone will yield to the miriad of excuses.

People are able to understand the Scriptures on an intellectual level. In theory, all should believe, yet none have a desire to believe Why would you suppose that men love darkness more than light? Do you know what the darkness is that man should love it so? That challenging issue remains even with the new born that he be proven by his allegiance. Do you believe man's love for darkness just somehow disappears when he is born again? I've got news for you--- it intensifies. It's called spiritual warfare. Overcoming 'self' now is the challenge to all new born in Christ.

The great example is Paul. Intellectually, he knew as much about the Scriptures as any person could. He had no desire to accept Christ until Christ confronted him on the road to Damascus. Had Christ not taken that action, would Paul have believed?Paul had a GREAT DESIRE to know the truth and he thought he had it all. His mind was made up and snapped shut. He was a righteous man. Now why do you think Jesus chose him?

You ask a good question --What else does one need but the ability to choose that he reveal love and allegiance? The answer is, Nothing. In theory, all should choose Christ. None do absent God making overtures.You mean from need and dire circumstamces engineered by God that man calls out in desperation? I'll agree to that. I pray that God will move upon the heart of one of His son's and not just one of His children to speak to that individual when the time comes.:smile:

The bold type is NOT of my doing -- sorry about that :blush:

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Lee: … how can an unbeliever repent, and fulfill the law, if love fulfills the law, and love comes from God?

Ormly: … you seem to be implying the law of Moses to your "love" analogy, may I ask how they repented in the OT given they had no "love" or "fullfillment of the law" to enable them.I believe they could fulfill the law, really fulfill it, just like we can, that they had real love from God:

Psalm 18:1 He said: I love you, O Lord, my strength.

Psalm 18:20 The Lord dealt with me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands he rewarded me.

Psalm 116:1 I love, because he has heard my voice and my pleas for mercy.

So how is it possible for unbelievers to love? Love is required to keep the law, Moses' law, all God's laws, and love comes from God.

Lee: I would put the order as conversion / regeneration -> faith -> salvation. No mention is made of regeneration in [Mt. 9:22].

Ormly: She saw, she heard, she believed and was converted by her senses and need.. It seems to me she was only exercising her God given ability[s] to believe per Titus 2.11 and Jn. 1.9.Well, let's discuss Titus 2:11 and Jn. 1:9, then! I don't think the Mt. 9 account decides this question for us.



Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ

Ormly: The woman heard and was made whole because she believed the report. She did that on her own.. Preachers are what that’s for.But "hearing" has a cause! That's the point I'm making here, hearing itself comes through the word of Christ, so unbelievers do not have an innate ability to hear.

Lee: Christ's word was being spoken to them! "Hear, you deaf!" [Isa. 42:18]. To give them hearing, even for God's servants, thus unbelievers need this, too, even more.


Ormly: In Isaiah!!!??Yes, why would God say this to them, if it was not for them? Thus again, unbelievers certainly need this:

Mark 4:9 Then Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

Implying that some did not have ears to hear, they simply couldn't hear:

Mark 4:11-12 … to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

God was preventing them from turning! But now you bring up this point:

Ormly: To those who refuse the good news after repeatedly hearing it God will do such a thing and He did.Then at least we agree that there are some unbelievers who cannot hear, this is not an ability every unbeliever has. And just because God causes blindness to some, doesn't mean the others can see!

Psalm 58:4 Their venom is like the venom of a snake, like that of a cobra that has stopped its ears.

Now it seems the wicked hear are said to stop their ears. But a cobra doesn't actually have ears! So they don't have ears, and they stop them, they are blind, and yet blinded:

Matthew 13:12 Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.

Lee: So I don't think this verse can be a clear proof one way or the other, the meaning can be either way, and the Hebrew word is similar, in Isa. 6:10, it can mean either "return" or again, simply "turn."


Ormly: Good! That’s all it means though, correct? You said it, I didn’t. ---- Therefore it doesn’t mean regeneration!No, I'm saying it's unclear what is meant here, thus we need to look to other, clearer, passages.

Ormly: Seems Jeremiah wasn't desperately wicked -- or Job, Abraham, etc.Weren't they, though?

Job 9:2 But how can a mortal be righteous before God?

Job 42:6 Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.

Ormly: Paul had a GREAT DESIRE to know the truth and he thought he had it all. His mind was made up and snapped shut. He was a righteous man. Now why do you think Jesus chose him?1 Timothy 1:15-16 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-- of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

A pretty good definition of total depravity!

Blessings,
Lee

P.S. I'm not sure what it is with the bold type, maybe we're supposed to be buccaneers or something! That's a bold type! Yo ho ho...

[Ormly]

Lee: … how can an unbeliever repent, and fulfill the law, if love fulfills the law, and love comes from God?


Ormly: … you seem to be implying the law of Moses to your "love" analogy, may I ask how they repented in the OT given they had no "love" or "fullfillment of the law" to enable them

I believe they could fulfill the law, really fulfill it, just like we can, that they had real love from God:

Psalm 18:1 He said: I love you, O Lord, my strength.


Psalm 18:20 The Lord dealt with me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands he rewarded me.

Psalm 116:1 I love, because he has heard my voice and my pleas for mercy.

So how is it possible for unbelievers to love? Love is required to keep the law, Moses' law, all God's laws, and love comes from God.
You can believe that til the cows come home and you still wouldn't be right.

All you are giving me is 'tulip' pedals. I understand they even have that in a new freeze dried version served up in fast food services for those who haven't as yet worn out their re-dedicators.



Your quotes from Ps are of David who had a heart after God so spare me having to read what you are trying to force fit into your convoluted thinking.Lee: I would put the order as conversion / regeneration -> faith-> salvation. No mention is made of regeneration in [Mt. 9:22].


Ormly: She saw, she heard, she believed and was converted by her senses and need.. It seems to me she was only exercising her God given ability[s] to believe per Titus 2.11 and Jn. 1.9.
Well, let's discuss Titus 2:11 and Jn. 1:9, then! I don't think the Mt. 9 account decides this question for us.Who is surprised that you have looked at this head on not claimed "It's a mystery"? You're a Calvinist and those who are not chained to his dogma understand the handicap/bondage you struggle under. You should maybe get with Gb and cry with him in his sadness. Mt 9 is all there is unless you'd like to read the accounts of others who were healed under the same circumstances? Wanna do that? It might help you solve your mystery. Having said that I wish to point out that MT9 is intrintically linked to other scripture for making Spiritual application for the re-born in Christ, more clear. Calvinism won't take you there. Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ

Ormly: The woman heard and was made whole because she believed the report. She did that on her own.. Preachers are what that’s for.
But "hearing" has a cause! That's the point I'm making here, hearing itself comes through the word of Christ, so unbelievers do not have an innate ability to hear She had two ears --countum --two.

Romans 10:17 (KJV)



So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.



We also have prophets today that speak the word of God.---or haven't you heard. ---or maybe choose not to hear. Hmmm?Lee: Christ's word was being spoken to them! "Hear, you deaf!" . To give them hearing, even for God's servants, thus unbelievers need this, too, even more.


[i]Ormly: In Isaiah!!!??

Yes, why would God say this to them, if it was not for them? Thus again, unbelievers certainly need this:But from Christ? That's the second time I've asked and you clearly are avoiding making some necessary distinctions. I wonder way? Mark 4:9 Then Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

Implying that some did not have ears to hear, they simply couldn't hear:

So?, And? You don't have ears to hear either, as far as I'm concerned and I'm assuming you have two of them on the sides of your head.
Mark 4:11-12 … to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"


God was preventing them from turning! But now you bring up this point:Ormly: To those who refuse the good news after repeatedly hearing it God will do such a thing and He did Again, And? So? Why did God do that that I haven't already pointed up? Lets not be more dishonest than you are being. -- either that or you don't have ears to hear --one or the other-- I'll give you the option in choosing.Then at least we agree that there are some unbelievers who cannot hear, this is not an ability every unbeliever has. And just because God causes blindness to some, doesn't mean the others can see!All unbelievers could at one time in their life, hear. I repeat the below:John 1:9 (KJV)


That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Make sure you read that real good, OK, cause you aren't hearing too well in this.Psalm 58:4 Their venom is like the venom of a snake, like that of a cobra that has stopped its ears.

Now it seems the wicked hear are said to stop their ears. But a cobra doesn't actually have ears! So they don't have ears, and they stop them, they are blind, and yet blinded:

No foolin', Dick Tracy. The verse even points that up. Perhaps it's your MacArthur paraphrase that is throwing you off. Throw it away and get a real Bible.:wink:

Matthew 13:12 Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.Good verse. Try to remember it.---I'll pray for you.

Lee: So I don't think this verse can be a clear proof one way or the other, the meaning can be either way, and the Hebrew word is similar, in Isa. 6:10, it can mean either "return" or again, simply "turn."

Ormly: Good! That’s all it means though, correct? You said it, I didn’t. ---- Therefore it doesn’t mean regeneration!
No, I'm saying it's unclear what is meant here, thus we need to look to other, clearer, passages.Not unclear at all to those willing to hear --and can. How much more simple can Jesus say what He said. Don't you believe Him or are you going to hold out for a Macarthur-Calvinst interpretation of the Greek?Ormly: Seems Jeremiah wasn't desperately wicked -- or Job, Abraham, etc.Weren't they, though?Are you saying they were? Seems you are. Oh I see, God waved His magic wand at His good pleasure and chose any ol' sucker out there.Job 9:2 But how can a mortal be righteous before God?
Job 42:6Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.

That would be in order for you based on what you've posted.
Ormly: Paul had a GREAT DESIRE to know the truth and he thought he had it all. His mind was made up and snapped shut. He was a righteous man. Now why do you think Jesus chose him?1 Timothy 1:15-16 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-- of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.A pretty good definition of total depravity!

Not hardly and only to the one who can't hear though he have two ears. Perhaps some parables are in order.:ahem:

:smile:rm

[lee_merrill]

Well, I think I will leave off here, having said my say...

Blessings,
Lee

[rhutchin]

rhutchin
We have two true statements--

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people. (Titus)

The true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. (John)

Ormly
What do you mean WAS coming into the world. It was is the world from the beginning. He was called the "Word". He was the light that shined into every man ever born.

John 1:9 (NASB-U)
There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

John 1:9 (KJV)
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

That’s interesting. I cut and paste from the NET Bible. I gather that the Greek construction is more interesting than people might suspect.


rhutchin
It is also true that the heart is deceitful and desparately wicked. (Jeremiah)

Ormly
Jeremiah 17:9-10 (KJV)
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.


Seems Jeremiah wasn't desperately wicked -- or Job, Abraham, etc. Shall I go on or would you rather have the opportunity to narrow the selection down as to who's heart was desperately wicked? But than the perhaps God was referring to man in a more general sense when He made that remark. Of course if you have a pet doctrine you wish to protect you will strongly disagree and throw out a few curve balls. I hope you won't do that.


I posted the scriptures so that comparisons can be made and your twist on them can be pointed out with little commentary.

Is it true that the heart of Jeremiah or Job or Abraham was not desperately wicked? I am not sure that those men would agree with you. I am also not aware that the Scriptures give us any indication that this is not the case for all men. The distinction here seems to be between the outward appearance of Jeremiah or Job or Abraham (that would argue to some against them having a heart that is deceitful) and the actual condition of their hearts. Paul, in Romans, argues in Chap 2 that there is none righteous and does so emphatically while quoting from the Psalm. In Rom 7, Paul describes his struggles against what appears to be his own deceitful heart.

I am not sure what pet doctrine you might be thinking that I have or how it is that I have twisted the citation from Jeremiah to say something other than what it says. Given the context from verse 1 onward, it would appear that if God were to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings, then all would be condemned.


rhutchin
This creates the problem of Total Depravity -- No one has a desire to believe.

Ormly
Nonsense from the git-go. Abraham had a desire and others, adnausm. Give that up.

Do you mean that Abraham and others had a desire for God from birth? Is it possible that such desires came later in life and can be attributed to something that God did to cause that desire?


rhutchin
On an intellectual level, people are aware of Christ and of salvation. Christ gave light to all so none dare deny that they are sinners.

Ormly
Why not dare to deny if you reject the light? Bit of a free choice you speak of, I'm afraid. Also it speaks of resisting that which you believe can't be resisted since giving light is to speak to one's conscience, not his intellect, as you would have it. Intellect alone will yield to the myriad of excuses.

Yet as we proceed in John 1, we see that Christ came to the world and the world did not recognize Him. Christ came to His people and they did not receive Him. Can we conclude from this that the light that Christ brought into the world was sufficient to bring salvation to all? It does not appear so from these verses. If all reject that light, what then?


rhutchin
People are able to understand the Scriptures on an intellectual level. In theory, all should believe, yet none have a desire to believe

Ormly
Why would you suppose that men love darkness more than light? Do you know what the darkness is that man should love it so? That challenging issue remains even with the new born that he be proven by his allegiance. Do you believe man's love for darkness just somehow disappears when he is born again? I've got news for you--- it intensifies. It's called spiritual warfare. Overcoming 'self' now is the challenge to all new born in Christ.

Men love darkness because their hearts are desperately wicked. Do you have another explanation?


rhutchin
The great example is Paul. Intellectually, he knew as much about the Scriptures as any person could. He had no desire to accept Christ until Christ confronted him on the road to Damascus. Had Christ not taken that action, would Paul have believed?

Ormly
Paul had a GREAT DESIRE to know the truth and he thought he had it all. His mind was made up and snapped shut. He was a righteous man. Now why do you think Jesus chose him?

Was Paul a “righteous” man? Is it true that God chose Paul because of some merit in Paul? If you could support those positions with the Scriptures, that would be impressive. As it is, this seems to be no more than your personal opinion.


rhutchin
You ask a good question --What else does one need but the ability to choose that he reveal love and allegiance? The answer is, Nothing. In theory, all should choose Christ. None do absent God making overtures.

Ormly
You mean from need and dire circumstances engineered by God that man calls out in desperation? I'll agree to that. I pray that God will move upon the heart of one of His son's and not just one of His children to speak to that individual when the time comes.

If you attribute all things to God, then you are on the right track. Without intervention by God to cause us to act, we would be without hope.

[Ormly]

Hi r, I answered one or two of your remarks again. Just needed you to know that.


rhutchin
We have two true statements--

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people. (Titus)

The true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. (John)

Ormly
What do you mean WAS coming into the world. It was is the world from the beginning. He was called the "Word". He was the light that shined into every man ever born.

John 1:9 (NASB-U)
There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

John 1:9 (KJV)
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

That’s interesting. I cut and paste from the NET Bible. I gather that the Greek construction is more interesting than people might suspect.Yes. I agree and we shall see below just how it can be manipulated by those with agenda.


rhutchin
It is also true that the heart is deceitful and desparately wicked. (Jeremiah)

Ormly
Jeremiah 17:9-10 (KJV)
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.


Seems Jeremiah wasn't desperately wicked -- or Job, Abraham, etc. Shall I go on or would you rather have the opportunity to narrow the selection down as to whose heart was desperately wicked? But than the perhaps God was referring to man in a more general sense when He made that remark. Of course if you have a pet doctrine you wish to protect you will strongly disagree and throw out a few curve balls. I hope you won't do that.I posted the scriptures so that comparisons can be made and the twist on them can be pointed out with little commentary Keep in mind that the KJV was heavily, if not all, Calvin's influence. But it is my favorite regardless.

Is it true that the heart of Jeremiah or Job or Abraham was not desperately wicked? I am not sure that those men would agree with you. I am also not aware that the Scriptures give us any indication that this is not the case for all men. The distinction here seems to be between the outward appearance of Jeremiah or Job or Abraham (that would argue to some against them having a heart that is deceitful) and the actual condition of their hearts. Paul, in Romans, argues in Chap 2 that there is none righteous and does so emphatically while quoting from the Psalm. In Rom 7, Paul describes his struggles against what appears to be his own deceitful heart.All honest men would certainly agree with that about themselves if asked. That is the way of the righteous. But does the word used actually mean wicked as we supppose? Check out some other translations.

Per the KJV, I’m not sure they would apply the word "wicked" to themselves, to the degree the word has been interpreted by Calvinists that excludes all but one dimension. It’s a given that all men need a new heart of flesh but couldn't receive one until Jesus accomplished all on the cross. Therefore the context you use to prove me wrong is given little attention. You seem to be incapable, or just unwilling, of making the distinction between a righteousness that all men are responsible for in their daily living and the one they were deprived of from their earthly father, Adam. Keeping that concern in the forefront of your thinking you might try reading your references again for the first time. Doing so honestly will certainly cause you to re-think your next remark:

"I am not sure what pet doctrine you might be thinking that I have or how it is that I have twisted the citation from Jeremiah to say something other than what it says. Given the context from verse 1 onward, it would appear that if God were to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings, then all would be condemned."If you only mean to implicate the Israelites of that time, I would agree. Their daily deeds certainly were "unrighteous". But wasn’t it righteous Israel that God blessed in times prior? So we can see that their righteousness was a variable and thus proves my point that man is capable of altering his condition by making choices conducive to the blessings of a Holy God. I believe that is undeniable.


Do you mean that Abraham and others had a desire for God from birth? Is it possible that such desires came later in life and can be attributed to something that God did to cause that desire Sure, when they were able to look about and see His wondrous works in the heavens and on earth. Is anything else needed that man be drawn to God? Is man not without excuse? Why do we suppose man needs something extra from God that he might believe in Him? However, we know that the heathen seek extra signs. Well, Abraham was a heathen but didn't need an extra special something.. So now, according to Calvin we have a totally depraved heathen who believes there is a God. You now have a choice to make either to believe man is capable to comprehend the existence of a God or he needs that something special in order to do so. Keep in mind, his people were star gazers connoting a belief in God. So we can suspect he was in the proccess of sorting out the issues that "caught the attention of God". Common heathen sense would tell you man is capable and either accepting his findings or rejecting them. God has given grace to all men for the purpose of seeing Him, rejection of what he sees brings blindness. Remember, ol' Pharaoh and his dealings with God through Moses?

Yet as we proceed in John 1, we see that Christ came to the world and the world did not recognize Him.You mean the "Word" became flesh and was rejected. His "flesh" was a different manifestation [of the "word"] unlike they looked for in messiah but even in this it can be seen that those who rejected Him in His flesh rejected that particular 'carpenter image' manifestation. But they did have a knowledge of God because of the "light" that was shown in them from the beginning per Jn1.9. Why were they preists?. But they, in their "religious unrighteousness ", could not connect the dots. Remember --They rejected and became blind. We face that today in our religious churches.

Christ came to His people and they did not receive Him. Can we conclude from this that the light that Christ brought into the world was sufficient to bring salvation to all? It does not appear so from these verses. If all reject that light, what then?The light, from the beginning, was to reveal God to the conscience that man might believe unto justification. That’s all it could do until the cross and resurrection was complete. It wasn’t intended to bring salvation. It couldn’t in and of itself. Innocent shed blood could only do that.[Rom 5.1]

rhutchin
People are able to understand the Scriptures on an intellectual level. In theory, all should believe, yet none have a desire to believe.None?? I don't think so.

Ormly
Why would you suppose that men love darkness more than light? Do you know what the darkness is that man should love it so? That challenging issue remains even with the new born that he be proven by his allegiance. Do you believe man's love for darkness just somehow disappears when he is born again? I've got news for you--- it intensifies. It's called spiritual warfare. Overcoming 'self' now is the challenge to all new born in Christ.[/quote]
rhutchin --Men love darkness because their hearts are desperately wicked. Do you have another explanation?[/quote]Can you explain why any new born, regenerated Christian, full of the Holy Ghost, would ever give into temptation, per Heb.6? I think you will say he was never saved. So I guess we will have to go through Heb. 6. and explore that portion also.

rhutchin
The great example is Paul. Intellectually, he knew as much about the Scriptures as any person could. He had no desire to accept Christ until Christ confronted him on the road to Damascus. Had Christ not taken that action, would Paul have believed?Ormly
Paul had a GREAT DESIRE to know the truth and he thought he had it all. His mind was made up and snapped shut. He was a righteous man. Now why do you think Jesus chose him?

Was Paul a "righteous" man?Yes. Show where he wasn’t. He thought he was doing God a favor by persecuting the Church. But do you think he would have rejected the scene on the day of Pentecost? I only ask.

Is it true that God chose Paul because of some merit in Paul?Merit in the sense you wish me to say? No. But lets make no mis-mistake as to the foreknowing of God who saw in Paul that particular character He would eventually use at this appointed time; one that was steadfast and unmovable. Paul was that, wasn’t he, both before and after his conversion? And speaking of the "something special" from God that was performed for Paul and not for the heathen who may seek that kind of a sign, God foreknew Paul would be convinced and not trample the pearls of Christ under foot. In fact God made sure and because of Paul's character, God would give him no choice. In this I see God's sovereignity.

If you could support those positions with the Scriptures, that would be impressive. As it is, this seems to be no more than your personal opinion. Well, interpretation can be only opinion after everything is concluded. Why do we have so many Bible translations? I might point out that knowing the Bible doesn’t mean memorizing it. If so which translation would you choose and would it be the correct one? No, knowing the Bible is to know the story of the God of the Bible given revelationally. This Spiritual effort, procedure and success will reveal the contradictions and discrepancies of agenda ridden religious doctrine.

rhutchin
You ask a good question --What else does one need but the ability to choose that he reveal love and allegiance? The answer is, Nothing. In theory, all should choose Christ. None do absent God making overtures.But for the new born in Christ it is not about choosing Christ but choosing the Father as Jesus chose Him in His wilderness experience. Can you make the connection yet between yourself and the man Jesus? What did Jesus have that you don’t?

If you attribute all things to God, then you are on the right track. Without intervention by God to cause us to act, we would be without hope.Sorry but for most God has given all He is going to give. The record is there and man has a God given capability to see it. Total depravity is a mis-used term to explain man’s inability to remove the stain of Sin from himself due to Adam’s transgression, the BIG SIN if you will, but to do daily righteousness is from the choices he can make. Micah 6:8 (NASB-U)

He has told you, O man, what is good;

And what does the Lord require of you

But to do justice, to love kindness,

And to walk humbly with your God?



All this from totally depraved, sin sick, deceitfully and desperately wicked man? I don’t think so and find it strange that you would disagree with me in this. So obviously there’s more than meets the eye when interpreting Jeremiah, Paul and Isaiah, wouldn’t you conclude that. ---context--

:smile:rm

[rhutchin]

rhutchin
It is also true that the heart is deceitful and desparately wicked. (Jeremiah)

Ormly
Jeremiah 17:9-10 (KJV)
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.


Seems Jeremiah wasn't desperately wicked -- or Job, Abraham, etc. Shall I go on or would you rather have the opportunity to narrow the selection down as to whose heart was desperately wicked? But than the perhaps God was referring to man in a more general sense when He made that remark. Of course if you have a pet doctrine you wish to protect you will strongly disagree and throw out a few curve balls. I hope you won't do that.

I posted the scriptures so that comparisons can be made and the twist on them can be pointed out with little commentary Keep in mind that the KJV was heavily, if not all, Calvin's influence. But it is my favorite regardless.

Is it possible for you to point out the twist that you see. I think this is a case where a little commentary would help (at the least, it would help me).


rhutchin
Is it true that the heart of Jeremiah or Job or Abraham was not desperately wicked? I am not sure that those men would agree with you. I am also not aware that the Scriptures give us any indication that this is not the case for all men. The distinction here seems to be between the outward appearance of Jeremiah or Job or Abraham (that would argue to some against them having a heart that is deceitful) and the actual condition of their hearts. Paul, in Romans, argues in Chap 2 that there is none righteous and does so emphatically while quoting from the Psalm. In Rom 7, Paul describes his struggles against what appears to be his own deceitful heart.

Ormly
All honest men would certainly agree with that about themselves if asked. That is the way of the righteous. But does the word used actually mean wicked as we suppose? Check out some other translations.

Per the KJV, I’m not sure they would apply the word "wicked" to themselves, to the degree the word has been interpreted by Calvinists that excludes all but one dimension. It’s a given that all men need a new heart of flesh but couldn't receive one until Jesus accomplished all on the cross. Therefore the context you use to prove me wrong is given little attention. You seem to be incapable, or just unwilling, of making the distinction between a righteousness that all men are responsible for in their daily living and the one they were deprived of from their earthly father, Adam. Keeping that concern in the forefront of your thinking you might try reading your references again for the first time. Doing so honestly will certainly cause you to re-think your next remark:

Since I am not well versed in Hebrew, how about explaining the Hebrew word that is translated as “wicked.” The context suggests that it is not a positive concept and I would enjoy seeing why you think that the term, “wicked,” does not capture that sense or perhaps, exaggerates that sense.

I will be the first to admit that I make no real “distinction between a righteousness that all men are responsible for in their daily living and the one they were deprived of from their earthly father, Adam.” To me, we lost both with Adam’s sin. In fact, I have never seen a distinction made concerning righteousness other than to distinguish human righteousness from God’s righteousness.


rhutchin
"I am not sure what pet doctrine you might be thinking that I have or how it is that I have twisted the citation from Jeremiah to say something other than what it says. Given the context from verse 1 onward, it would appear that if God were to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings, then all would be condemned."

Ormly
If you only mean to implicate the Israelites of that time, I would agree. Their daily deeds certainly were "unrighteous". But wasn’t it righteous Israel that God blessed in times prior? So we can see that their righteousness was a variable and thus proves my point that man is capable of altering his condition by making choices conducive to the blessings of a Holy God. I believe that is undeniable.

I agree. The issue then, is to explain how man is capable of altering his condition by making choices conducive to the blessings of a Holy God. Are people born with this capability? Is it gained through experience? Where do you think it comes from?


rhutchin
Do you mean that Abraham and others had a desire for God from birth? Is it possible that such desires came later in life and can be attributed to something that God did to cause that desire

Ormly
Sure, when they were able to look about and see His wondrous works in the heavens and on earth. Is anything else needed that man be drawn to God? Is man not without excuse? Why do we suppose man needs something extra from God that he might believe in Him? However, we know that the heathen seek extra signs. Well, Abraham was a heathen but didn't need an extra special something. So now, according to Calvin we have a totally depraved heathen who believes there is a God. You now have a choice to make either to believe man is capable to comprehend the existence of a God or he needs that something special in order to do so. Keep in mind, his people were star gazers connoting a belief in God. So we can suspect he was in the proccess of sorting out the issues that "caught the attention of God". Common heathen sense would tell you man is capable and either accepting his findings or rejecting them. God has given grace to all men for the purpose of seeing Him, rejection of what he sees brings blindness. Remember, ol' Pharaoh and his dealings with God through Moses?

Does that mean that the smart guys who study the stars can figure out that God is real and the dummies cannot? Of all the people who studied the stars, does it not seem unusual that only Abraham seems to have figured it out and then coincidentally, he is of the lineage of Adam through Noah to Terah and the one from whom Christ would be born. To me, it seems like someone planned it out.


rhutchin
Yet as we proceed in John 1, we see that Christ came to the world and the world did not recognize Him.

Ormly
You mean the "Word" became flesh and was rejected. His "flesh" was a different manifestation [of the "word"] unlike they looked for in messiah but even in this it can be seen that those who rejected Him in His flesh rejected that particular 'carpenter image' manifestation. But they did have a knowledge of God because of the "light" that was shown in them from the beginning per Jn1.9. Why were they preists?. But they, in their "religious unrighteousness ", could not connect the dots. Remember --They rejected and became blind. We face that today in our religious churches.

If Christ became flesh and was rejected, what was the purpose of the “light” and what did that light accomplish? We are told that Christ was the light and that He was rejected. What good was the knowledge of God that came from the light, if the people still could not connect the dots after receiving the light?


rhutchin
Christ came to His people and they did not receive Him. Can we conclude from this that the light that Christ brought into the world was sufficient to bring salvation to all? It does not appear so from these verses. If all reject that light, what then?

Ormly
The light, from the beginning, was to reveal God to the conscience that man might believe unto justification. That’s all it could do until the cross and resurrection was complete. It wasn’t intended to bring salvation. It couldn’t in and of itself. Innocent shed blood could only do that.[Rom 5.1]

Then, what did the light have to do with anything. If it did not bring salvation and people still rejected Christ after receiving the light, what purpose did the light serve?


rhutchin
People are able to understand the Scriptures on an intellectual level. In theory, all should believe, yet none have a desire to believe.

Ormly
None?? I don't think so.

I think we agree that all do not believe. How is it that some do believe? Do you think they are smarter than the others or have some other characteristic that enables them to believe while others, who do not believe, do not have this characteristic?

Ormly
Why would you suppose that men love darkness more than light? Do you know what the darkness is that man should love it so? That challenging issue remains even with the new born that he be proven by his allegiance. Do you believe man's love for darkness just somehow disappears when he is born again? I've got news for you--- it intensifies. It's called spiritual warfare. Overcoming 'self' now is the challenge to all new born in Christ.

rhutchin
--Men love darkness because their hearts are desperately wicked. Do you have another explanation?

Ormly
Can you explain why any new born, regenerated Christian, full of the Holy Ghost, would ever give into temptation, per Heb.6? I think you will say he was never saved. So I guess we will have to go through Heb. 6 and explore that portion also.

That would make an interesting discussion. Maybe you could start a new thread and develop your thoughts on that passage.

However, my question was -- Men love darkness because their hearts are desperately wicked. Do you have another explanation?

So, do you have another explanation?


rhutchin
The great example is Paul. Intellectually, he knew as much about the Scriptures as any person could. He had no desire to accept Christ until Christ confronted him on the road to Damascus. Had Christ not taken that action, would Paul have believed?

Ormly
Paul had a GREAT DESIRE to know the truth and he thought he had it all. His mind was made up and snapped shut. He was a righteous man. Now why do you think Jesus chose him?

My conclusion is that Christ did not choose Paul because of some merit that Paul had, not even because “Paul had a GREAT DESIRE to know the truth.” Christ chose Paul because He wanted to use Paul for His purposes. This is the same reason that Christ chooses any other person. It also explains why Christ does not choose others.


rhutchin
Was Paul a "righteous" man?

Ormly
Yes. Show where he wasn’t. He thought he was doing God a favor by persecuting the Church. But do you think he would have rejected the scene on the day of Pentecost? I only ask.

How about Paul’s testimony.

Romans 7
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

1 Timothy 1
12 I am grateful to the one who has strengthened me, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he considered me faithful in putting me into ministry,
13 even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor, and an arrogant man. But I was treated with mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief,
14 and our Lord’s grace was abundant, bringing faith and love in Christ Jesus.


rhutchin
Is it true that God chose Paul because of some merit in Paul?

Ormly
Merit in the sense you wish me to say? No. But lets make no mis-mistake as to the foreknowing of God who saw in Paul that particular character He would eventually use at this appointed time; one that was steadfast and unmovable. Paul was that, wasn’t he, both before and after his conversion? And speaking of the "something special" from God that was performed for Paul and not for the heathen who may seek that kind of a sign, God foreknew Paul would be convinced and not trample the pearls of Christ under foot. In fact God made sure and because of Paul's character, God would give him no choice. In this I see God's sovereignty.

So, your conclusion is that it was Paul’s character that made him acceptable to God. That would explain why God does not do anything with so many others -- they lack Paul’s character. If one must have Paul’s character, then I have no hope.


rhutchin
If you could support those positions with the Scriptures, that would be impressive. As it is, this seems to be no more than your personal opinion.

Ormly
Well, interpretation can be only opinion after everything is concluded. Why do we have so many Bible translations? I might point out that knowing the Bible doesn’t mean memorizing it. If so which translation would you choose and would it be the correct one? No, knowing the Bible is to know the story of the God of the Bible given revelationally. This Spiritual effort, procedure and success will reveal the contradictions and discrepancies of agenda ridden religious doctrine.

So, I guess that I should conclude that it is your personal opinion.


rhutchin
You ask a good question --What else does one need but the ability to choose that he reveal love and allegiance? The answer is, Nothing. In theory, all should choose Christ. None do absent God making overtures.

Ormly
But for the new born in Christ it is not about choosing Christ but choosing the Father as Jesus chose Him in His wilderness experience. Can you make the connection yet between yourself and the man Jesus? What did Jesus have that you don’t?

What Jesus had that I do not, is (1) the ability and (2) the desire to choose God’s way.


rhutchin
If you attribute all things to God, then you are on the right track. Without intervention by God to cause us to act, we would be without hope.

Ormly
Sorry but for most God has given all He is going to give. The record is there and man has a God given capability to see it. Total depravity is a mis-used term to explain man’s inability to remove the stain of Sin from himself due to Adam’s transgression, the BIG SIN if you will, but to do daily righteousness is from the choices he can make. Micah 6:8 (NASB-U)

He has told you, O man, what is good;

And what does the Lord require of you

But to do justice, to love kindness,

And to walk humbly with your God?

All this from totally depraved, sin sick, deceitfully and desperately wicked man? I don’t think so and find it strange that you would disagree with me in this. So obviously there’s more than meets the eye when interpreting Jeremiah, Paul and Isaiah, wouldn’t you conclude that.

I agree. You do not get those things from depraved, sin sick, deceitfully and desperately wicked man.

Consequently, Jeremiah was correct. The heart is deceitful and desparately wicked.

[Ormly]

Sorry Dude, you can't seem to connect the dots. That's the problem one will have when he hasn't received the thing necessary from Christ that will enable him to connect them. I'm just about willing say it is willful ignorance that I read from you.
I've given you, as I would anyone mentally challenged, sufficient information that should enable you to at least ask intelligient questions. The fact that you desire me to repeat myself to accomodate your spin on my words that you be able to continue to spin them and the scriptures only raises the red flag within me that I'm wasting my time. I will never be able to present you with anything that will rectify your misconceptions since it will only contradict the religious bondage you've submitted to and I fully realize that satisying that comes first. I don't believe you are, at this point in time, teachable. As a result you will continue to be at a loss to reconcile scripture and thus forced to cry out "It's a mystery" more than you will be willing to admit or challenge. You must begin to realize that the foundation of Christ, which is the proper one on which to build, must first be established on a level footing. Your footing is crooked; it fact it's also lumpy. What's needed by you is that you set aside the foundation, tear up the footing, and lay in a new one on which to re-set the foundation. Until that's done your nominal experience will be the only experience you will ever experience since you have accepted it normal. :eek:


May I offer this in conclusion: Since you don't believe that feelings play apart in one's salvation, it being only by a faith that must be given by God in order to have a faith, how is you are able to determine you have received that which you believe you must have? By what criteria do you use to make the determination that you are not still totally depraved and incapable?

Orm

[rhutchin]

...

May I offer this in conclusion: Since you don't believe that feelings play a part in one's salvation, it being only by a faith that must be given by God in order to have a faith, how is you are able to determine you have received that which you believe you must have? By what criteria do you use to make the determination that you are not still totally depraved and incapable?

Orm

If not by feelings, then it must be by faith. One determines that God has saved them by observing how God has changed them. Things that the Christian did before have become their shame, yet they cannot put away the desires; things that God requires of them, they find themselves unable to do. They cry out to God continually. They often "feel" like Habakkuk in that they encounter the same frustrations.

I doubt that any Christian ever sees themselves as escaping the depravity that once enslaved them or ever feels capable of serving God on their own.

[Ormly]

If not by feelings, then it must be by faith. One determines that God has saved them by observing how God has changed them. Things that the Christian did before have become their shame, yet they cannot put away the desires; things that God requires of them, they find themselves unable to do. They cry out to God continually. They often "feel" like Habakkuk in that they encounter the same frustrations.

I doubt that any Christian ever sees themselves as escaping the depravity that once enslaved them or ever feels capable of serving God on their own.
Who's faith? --- What faith? ---- They can do all changing with a 12 step program or a copy of the Purpose driven life.