Better to be a JW or a Baptist?

[Sparko]

OK, this is based on a modified version of Pascal's wager.... :teeth:

From what I understand that the Jehovah's Witnesses (JW's) believe:

1. only 144,000 people will get to heaven.
2. There is no hell.
3. The rest of the people who ever lived, come back to life during the millenium, and have 1000 years to decide to follow Christ or not. If they choose not to, they are killed and cease to exist. If they do, they continue to live in paridise on earth.

Baptists (and other orthodox Christians) believe

1. Everyone who gets saved by Jesus gets to go to heaven, and heaven will eventually include the New Earth (similar to the JW paradise)
2. There is a hell
3. Everyone who is not saved by Jesus will end up in hell and never have another chance after they die. One life and then the judgement.

So,


1. If the JW is right, both he and the baptist will have a second chance during the 1000 year millenium to recieve eternal life in paradise.

2. If the Baptist is right, then then only orthodox Christians will be saved and the JW will end up in hell.

It seems to me that the "safest" thing to be is a Baptist (or other orthodox denomination) since we believe that the JW's, by virtue of having a wrong view of Christ's diety, are not saved and will end up you know where, and yet if we are wrong, we still get another chance in the JW view of doctrine.

[NonTrinitarian]

OK, this is based on a modified version of Pascal's wager.... :teeth:

From what I understand that the Jehovah's Witnesses (JW's) believe:

1. only 144,000 people will get to heaven.
2. There is no hell.
3. The rest of the people who ever lived, come back to life during the millenium, and have 1000 years to decide to follow Christ or not. If they choose not to, they are killed and cease to exist. If they do, they continue to live in paridise on earth.

Baptists (and other orthodox Christians) believe

1. Everyone who gets saved by Jesus gets to go to heaven, and heaven will eventually include the New Earth (similar to the JW paradise)
2. There is a hell
3. Everyone who is not saved by Jesus will end up in hell and never have another chance after they die. One life and then the judgement.

So,


1. If the JW is right, both he and the baptist will have a second chance during the 1000 year millenium to recieve eternal life in paradise.

2. If the Baptist is right, then then only orthodox Christians will be saved and the JW will end up in hell.

It seems to me that the "safest" thing to be is a Baptist (or other orthodox denomination) since we believe that the JW's, by virtue of having a wrong view of Christ's diety, are not saved and will end up you know where, and yet if we are wrong, we still get another chance in the JW view of doctrine.
This argument, of course, only works if one were to doubt his beliefs were true. Since there are SO MANY things the Baptists are wrong on, I don't want to be associated with them, even if I am not certain of every JW belief. Furthermore, it is based on an inaccurate understanding of JW beliefs. Those destroyed at Armegeddon will not be resurrected during the 1000 reign. IE, Jesus isn't going to kill you at Armegedon then turn around and ressurect you on the next day.

[n0rstar]

In order to receive a ressurrection to a second life, you must do the work Jesus command. (Mat 24:9-14; Rom 10:5-10; Rev 20:11)

If not then you will be ressurrected to the second death.


Rev 20:15Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.

However, its not eternal damnation, such as the orthodox belief. (rev 21:8) And as far as the "safest" path being baptist, the bible has also this to say.

Rev 2:11 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations: He that conquers will by no means be harmed by the second death.’

Heb 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,

[Sparko]

In order to receive a ressurrection to a second life, you must do the work Jesus command. (Mat 24:9-14; Rom 10:5-10; Rev 20:11)

If not then you will be ressurrected to the second death.



However, its not eternal damnation, such as the orthodox belief. (rev 21:8) And as far as the "safest" path being baptist, the bible has also this to say.
so I was wrong about the resurrection of people during the 1000 year reign?

Who gets to be resurrected then? only faithful Jehovah's witnesses? If that is the case, then why bother with the 1000 year reign? Isn't its purpose to see who will turn to Jehovah? Give everyone a second chance? If not, and only faithful JW's will be resurrected, then why bother with the 1000 years, since Jehovah already knows they are faithful to him and chose to follow him in this life?

I serously am wanting to understand your doctrines of the 1000 years and the resurrection. Especially if I am wrong in what I believed.

Thank you.

[Sparko]

Those destroyed at Armegeddon will not be resurrected during the 1000 reign. IE, Jesus isn't going to kill you at Armegedon then turn around and ressurect you on the next day. I assume that included those JW's that are not living up to the standards of the faith? If they die during armageddon, they will not be resurrected either?

So, anyone who dies BEFORE Armageddon, will be resurrected and get 1000 years as a second chance. But if you die DURING Armageddon, then you don't. is that right?

Then it makes sense to just go ahead and kill ourselves now, to ensure we get that 1000 year chance, cuz even if we fail, we will have 10 times the lifetime of those who won't get resurrected at all if they die in Armageddon. I wonder if there is a large number of suicides among Jehovah's Witnesses because they came to the same conclusion?

[NonTrinitarian]

so I was wrong about the resurrection of people during the 1000 year reign?

Who gets to be resurrected then? only faithful Jehovah's witnesses? If that is the case, then why bother with the 1000 year reign? Isn't its purpose to see who will turn to Jehovah? Give everyone a second chance? If not, and only faithful JW's will be resurrected, then why bother with the 1000 years, since Jehovah already knows they are faithful to him and chose to follow him in this life?

I serously am wanting to understand your doctrines of the 1000 years and the resurrection. Especially if I am wrong in what I believed.

Thank you.
There is goign to be a resurrection of both the reighteous and the unrighteous. The righteous are those who are doign God's will as best they can. The unrighteous are those who perhaps didn't get a chance to hear the message (natives, chinese, etc and those who, for whatever reason, didn't get the full sense of it). Jesus is the judge so we can't say exactly WHO will and will not be resurrected. But we believe those who are executed by Christ at Armegeddon will not then turn around and be resurrected back to life. That's why the preaching work is so important.

[NonTrinitarian]

I assume that included those JW's that are not living up to the standards of the faith? If they die during armageddon, they will not be resurrected either? Jesus is the judge but attending meetings at the Kingdom Hall, going out in the ministry, etc. does not earn one salvation. There will be a number of people who call themselves JW"s who may not make it through, in my opinion. But I'm not the judge.


So, anyone who dies BEFORE Armageddon, will be resurrected and get 1000 years as a second chance. But if you die DURING Armageddon, then you don't. is that right?

Then it makes sense to just go ahead and kill ourselves now, to ensure we get that 1000 year chance, cuz even if we fail, we will have 10 times the lifetime of those who won't get resurrected at all if they die in Armageddon. I wonder if there is a large number of suicides among Jehovah's Witnesses because they came to the same conclusion?
No, it is not anyone who dies before armegeddon will get resurrected. It's those whom did not have a fair opportunity to hear the message, due to a number of reasons. People who hear the message and just out-right reject it will probably not be resurrected. I say "probably" because I can't read hearts. Jesus can.

[Sparko]

OK, then I thank you for correcting my misunderstanding of your doctrine. Thread is dead!

[n0rstar]

Jesus is the judge but attending meetings at the Kingdom Hall, going out in the ministry, etc. does not earn one salvation. There will be a number of people who call themselves JW"s who may not make it through, in my opinion. But I'm not the judge.


No, it is not anyone who dies before armegeddon will get resurrected. It's those whom did not have a fair opportunity to hear the message, due to a number of reasons. People who hear the message and just out-right reject it will probably not be resurrected. I say "probably" because I can't read hearts. Jesus can.

First resurrection. Revelation 20:5,6 refers to the resurrection of those who will reign with Christ as “the first resurrection.” The apostle Paul speaks of this first resurrection also as “the earlier resurrection from the dead [literally, the out-resurrection the out of dead (ones)].” (Php 3:11, NW, Ro, Int) On the expression Paul uses here, Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament (1931, Vol. IV, p. 454) says: “Apparently Paul is thinking here only of the resurrection of believers out from the dead and so double ex [out] (ten exanastasin ten ek nekron). Paul is not denying a general resurrection by this language, but emphasizing that of believers.” Charles Ellicott’s Commentaries (1865, Vol. II, p. 87) remarks on Philippians 3:11: “‘The resurrection from the dead;’ i.e., as the context suggests, the first resurrection (Rev. xx. 5), when, at the Lord’s coming the dead in Him shall rise first (1Thessalon. iv. 16), and the quick be caught up to meet Him in the clouds (1Thess. iv. 17); compare Luke xx. 35. The first resurrection will include only true believers, and will apparently precede the second, that of non-believers and disbelievers, in point of time ... Any reference here to a merely ethical resurrection (Cocceius) is wholly out of the question.” One of the basic meanings of the word e·xa·na´sta·sis is getting up from bed in the morning; thus it can well represent a resurrection occurring early, otherwise called “the first resurrection.” Rotherham’s translation of Philippians 3:11 reads: “If by any means I may advance to the earlier resurrection which is from among the dead.”

Earthly Resurrection. While Jesus was hanging on a stake, one of the evildoers alongside him, observing that Jesus was not deserving of punishment, requested: “Jesus, remember me when you get into your kingdom.” Jesus replied: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.” (Lu 23:42,43) In effect, Jesus said: ‘On this dark day, when my claim to a kingdom is to outward appearances highly unlikely, you express faith. Indeed, when I do get into my kingdom, I will remember you.’ (See PARADISE.) This would require a resurrection for the evildoer. This man was not a faithful follower of Jesus Christ. He had been engaged in wrongdoing, lawbreaking meriting the death penalty. (Lu 23:40,41) Therefore, he could not hope to be one of those receiving the first resurrection. Additionally, he died 40 days before Jesus ascended into heaven and hence before Pentecost, which was 10 days after that ascension, when God through Jesus anointed the first members of those who will receive the heavenly resurrection.—Ac 1:3; 2:1-4,33.

The evildoer, Jesus said, would be in Paradise. The word means “a park or pleasure ground.” The Septuagint rendered the Hebrew word for “garden” (gan), as at Genesis 2:8, by the Greek word pa·ra´dei·sos. The paradise in which the evildoer will be would not be “the paradise of God” promised to “him that conquers,” at Revelation 2:7, for the evildoer was not a conqueror of the world with Jesus Christ. (Joh 16:33) The evildoer would therefore not be in the heavenly Kingdom as a member of it (Lu 22:28-30) but would be a subject of the Kingdom when those of “the first resurrection” would, as kings of God and Christ, sit on thrones, ruling with Christ for a thousand years.—Re 20:4,6.

“The righteous and the unrighteous.” The apostle Paul said to a group of Jews who also entertained the hope of a resurrection that “there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”—Ac 24:15.

The Bible makes it plain who are “the righteous.” First of all, those who are to receive a heavenly resurrection are declared righteous.—Ro 8:28-30.

Then the Bible calls faithful men of old such as Abraham righteous. (Ge 15:6; Jas 2:21) Many of these men are listed at Hebrews chapter 11, and of them the writer says: “And yet all these, although they had witness borne to them through their faith, did not get the fulfillment of the promise, as God foresaw something better for us [spirit-begotten, anointed Christians like Paul], in order that they might not be made perfect apart from us.” (Heb 11:39,40) So, the perfecting of them will take place after that of the ones having part in “the first resurrection.”

Then there is the “great crowd” described in Revelation chapter 7, who are not members of the 144,000 “sealed” ones, and who consequently do not have “the token” of the spirit as being spirit-begotten. (Eph 1:13,14; 2Co 5:5) They are described as coming “out of the great tribulation” as survivors of it; this would seem to locate the gathering of this group in the last days shortly before that tribulation. These are righteous through faith, being clothed in white robes washed in the blood of the Lamb. (Re 7:1, 9-17) As a class, they will not need to be resurrected, but faithful ones of that group who die before the great tribulation will be resurrected in God’s due time.

Also, there are many “unrighteous” persons buried in Sheol (Hades), mankind’s common grave, or in “the sea,” watery graves. The judgment of these along with “the righteous” resurrected on earth is described in Revelation 20:12,13: “And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.”

[i]quoted from; Insight, Vol2. [Subheading: Resurrection]

[barryrob]

OK, this is based on a modified version of Pascal's wager.... :teeth:

From what I understand that the Jehovah's Witnesses (JW's) believe:

1. only 144,000 people will get to heaven.
2. There is no hell.
3. The rest of the people who ever lived, come back to life during the millenium, and have 1000 years to decide to follow Christ or not. If they choose not to, they are killed and cease to exist. If they do, they continue to live in paridise on earth.

Baptists (and other orthodox Christians) believe

1. Everyone who gets saved by Jesus gets to go to heaven, and heaven will eventually include the New Earth (similar to the JW paradise)
2. There is a hell
3. Everyone who is not saved by Jesus will end up in hell and never have another chance after they die. One life and then the judgement.

So,


1. If the JW is right, both he and the baptist will have a second chance during the 1000 year millenium to recieve eternal life in paradise.

2. If the Baptist is right, then then only orthodox Christians will be saved and the JW will end up in hell.

It seems to me that the "safest" thing to be is a Baptist (or other orthodox denomination) since we believe that the JW's, by virtue of having a wrong view of Christ's diety, are not saved and will end up you know where, and yet if we are wrong, we still get another chance in the JW view of doctrine.The follower of Jesus Christ who was a Jewish Jehovah’s Witness:-



Isaiah 43:10

"YOU are my witnesses," [The Jews] is the utterance of Jehovah, "even my servant [The Jews collectively] whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One.. . .



Isaiah 43:12

"I myself have told forth and have saved and have caused [it] to be heard, when there was among YOU no strange [god]. So YOU [The Jews] are my witnesses," is the utterance of Jehovah, "and I am God.. . .



Jesus Christ as a member of the Jewish nation was a Jehovah's Witness (the greatest one to ever walk the surface of the Earth) according to The Bible, so the people who follow Jesus Christ are Christian* Witnesses of Jehovah out of all nations and tribes and tongues that preformed Baptisms but did not call themselves Baptists.
*As they follow the example of Jesus Christ and teach people to worship his God, hence Christian(s).

Barryrob

[Sparko]

Again, Barryrob,

You fail to answer the questions or argument in the opening post.

BZZZZT

[barryrob]

Again, Barryrob,

You fail to answer the questions or argument in the opening post.

BZZZZT
I am looking at the thread theme as it is The Question and using the Bible to answer that.

[Sparko]

So you just read a thread title and answer that, without bothering to read my opening post, even though you quote it in its entirety.

That pretty much confirms what I have begun to think about your posts.

[barryrob]

So you just read a thread title and answer that, without bothering to read my opening post, even though you quote it in its entirety.

That pretty much confirms what I have begun to think about your posts.
What is the point in answering questions that have been delt with well.

Looking for a new angel on what you say.

[Sparko]

Barryrob, The point is....

Theologyweb is for people to debate and discuss things. That means both sides have to read and respond to the other side.

If you can't debate or answer actual posts in a thread, then maybe you shouldn't be on a discussion board. If all you care about is tossing out irrelevant information and watchtower articles, then you should just go back to knocking on doors. You aren't contributing anything and you aren't convincing anyone of anything. You are just sort of annoying people who want to have real discussions. Sorry, but that is the truth.

[barryrob]

Barryrob, The point is....

Theologyweb is for people to debate and discuss things. That means both sides have to read and respond to the other side.

If you can't debate or answer actual posts in a thread, then maybe you shouldn't be on a discussion board. If all you care about is tossing out irrelevant information and watchtower articles, then you should just go back to knocking on doors. You aren't contributing anything and you aren't convincing anyone of anything. You are just sort of annoying people who want to have real discussions. Sorry, but that is the truth.
It may be "irrelevant information" to you but not to others so you also make the minds of other people up for them. Its good to have OUR ideas on here so both side can be seen not just a onside biased oppinions that do not express our teaching correctly.

You asked the question "Better to be a JW or a Baptist?" I answered it. As I said to you before if you do not like the answers do not ask the questions! Any question can have many angels for replys from The Bible The Christians Answer Book.

You asked 3 main queations is it, 2 where covered well and I considered did not need anymore to be said (unless you want to hear the same truths again), but the main question "Better to be a JW or a Baptist?" I think needeed to be addressed, if you did not want an answer to it why did you put "?" at the end?

Barryrob

[Krusader]

OK, this is based on a modified version of Pascal's wager.... :teeth:

From what I understand that the Jehovah's Witnesses (JW's) believe:

1. only 144,000 people will get to heaven.
2. There is no hell.
3. The rest of the people who ever lived, come back to life during the millenium, and have 1000 years to decide to follow Christ or not. If they choose not to, they are killed and cease to exist. If they do, they continue to live in paridise on earth.

Baptists (and other orthodox Christians) believe

1. Everyone who gets saved by Jesus gets to go to heaven, and heaven will eventually include the New Earth (similar to the JW paradise)
2. There is a hell
3. Everyone who is not saved by Jesus will end up in hell and never have another chance after they die. One life and then the judgement.

So,


1. If the JW is right, both he and the baptist will have a second chance during the 1000 year millenium to recieve eternal life in paradise.

2. If the Baptist is right, then then only orthodox Christians will be saved and the JW will end up in hell.

It seems to me that the "safest" thing to be is a Baptist (or other orthodox denomination) since we believe that the JW's, by virtue of having a wrong view of Christ's diety, are not saved and will end up you know where, and yet if we are wrong, we still get another chance in the JW view of doctrine.
Barry, the "safest" thing to be is a Christian!

Charles Taze Russell, prior to founding the society, was obsessed with the thought of hell. As a young man he painted signs on fences warning those who did not keep the Sabbath that they would burn in hell.

Russell (possibly due to his fear of hell), joined with the Adventists who taught the doctrine of soul-sleep (not soul annihilation, as does the society). After the Millerite disappointment, Russell began teaching the invisible return of Christ heresy, and went deeper and deeper into heretical beliefs. Eventually he denied the deity of Christ, the Trinity, and set himself up as the dispenser of truth for his generation.

Who is it safer to believe, Russell or the Bible?

[barryrob]

Barry, the "safest" thing to be is a Christian!

Charles Taze Russell, prior to founding the society, was obsessed with the thought of hell. As a young man he painted signs on fences warning those who did not keep the Sabbath that they would burn in hell.

Russell (possibly due to his fear of hell), joined with the Adventists who taught the doctrine of soul-sleep (not soul annihilation, as does the society). After the Millerite disappointment, Russell began teaching the invisible return of Christ heresy, and went deeper and deeper into heretical beliefs. Eventually he denied the deity of Christ, the Trinity, and set himself up as the dispenser of truth for his generation.

Who is it safer to believe, Russell or the Bible?

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK A CHRISTIAN IS?

Barryrob

[Krusader]

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK A CHRISTIAN IS?

Barryrob
A Christian is a person who has put his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (of Scripture, not "another Jesus,"), who has repented of his/her sins, been washed by the Blood of Jesus, been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and transferred to the Kingdom of Light.

[barryrob]

A Christian is a person who has put his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (of Scripture, not "another Jesus,"), who has repented of his/her sins, been washed by the Blood of Jesus, been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and transferred to the Kingdom of Light.

True

1 Peter 2:21
In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely.

but you missed the most important thing of your list as Jesus said when quoting from Deut 6:5:-

Mark 12:30
you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.’

Luke 10:27
In answer he said: "‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole strength and with your whole mind,’ and, ‘your neighbor as yourself.’"

Barryrob