Did God Create Evil?

[Cherith]

At a certain college, there was a professor with a reputation for being tough on Christians. At the first class every semester, he asked if anyone was a Christian and proceeded to degrade and mock their statement of faith.

One semester, he asked the question and a young man raised his hand when asked if anyone was a Christian.

The professor asked, "Did God make everything, young
man?" "Yes he did, sir," the young man replied.

The professor responded, "If God made everything, then God made evil, and IF we can only create from within ourselves, THEN God is evil."

The student didn't have a response and the professor was happy to have once again proved the Christian faith to be a myth.

Then another student raised her hand and asked, "May I ask you something, sir?" "Yes you may," responded the professor.

The young woman stood up and said, "Sir, is there such thing as cold?"

"Of course there is, what kind of a question is that?
Haven't you ever been cold?"

The young lady replied, "Actually, sir, cold does not exist. What we consider to be cold is really only the absence of heat. Absolute zero is when there is absolutely no heat, but cold does not really exist. We have only created that term to describe how we feel when heat is not there."

The young woman continued, "Sir, is there such thing as dark?"

Once again, the professor responded, "Of course there
is."

And once again, the student replied, "Actually, sir, darkness does not exist. Darkness is really only the absence of light. Darkness is only a term man developed to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally, the young lady asked, "Sir, is there such thing as evil?"

The professor responded, "Of course. We have rapes,
and murders and violence everywhere in the world, those things are evil."

The student replied, "Actually, sir, evil does not exist. Evil is simply the absence of God. Evil is a term man developed to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. It isn't like truth, or love, which exist as virtues like heat and light. Evil is simply the state where God is not present, like cold without heat or darkness without light."

The professor had nothing to say.

[DBoone]

RSV

Isa.45
[7] I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe,
I am the LORD, who do all these things.

KJV:

45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

Don't ask me to explain it, but that's what it says in the Bible.

I still don't agree with the professor's definition of "create", that God creates out of Himself. From what I understand, God created the universe out of nothing, by speaking it into existence, not by pulling it out of Himself like some kind of single-celled organism.

[apologetics]

Oh boy! I can't believe I didn't find this sooner! This question comes up in EVERY SINGLE discussion I have ever had with an atheist/skeptic/agnostic. And of those who have known anything about the Bible (I actually think it is in an atheist-evangelist how-to list), Isaiah 45:7 has almost always come up!

This troubled me the first time I encountered it. So I did some research and found that there is a very simple explanation! This is something that Christians need to be aware of with ALL supposed Biblical "contradictions." Do some independent research and the answer will be there.

Anyway here is the answer to the Atheists charge that Isaiah 45:7 states explicitly that "God created evil."

Firstly, here is how the major translations render this verse:

KJV: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

NASB: The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

NIV: I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD , do all these things.

NKJV: I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.'

RSV: I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things.

Webster's: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Youngs: Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'

ASV: I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

Now, I have bolded the word in question in each translation. We have several, don't we: evil, calamity, disaster, woe. Although it is apparent that there is a translation issue here, why is it that the atheist/skeptic chooses to always hit on the word "EVIL"??? When vocabulary is in question, it is always paramount that one go right to the original language. When we do this, this is what we find:

On the issue of Isaiah 45:7:

The word being used in this verse has been translated for us as "evil." The word that the prophet Isaiah used when writing this in the original Hebrew is the word "ra." Is "ra" translated as "evil" and "evil" alone? NO! "Ra" in the Hebrew is translated as all of the following:

sorrow, wretchedness, calamity, adversity, affliction, misery, distress and evil.

HOWEVER! As is pointed out by the Scofield Reference Notes (1917 Edition): "Heb. "ra" translated "sorrow," "wretchedness," "adversity," "afflictions," "calamities," but never translated sin. God created evil only in the sense that He made sorrow, wretchedness, etc., to be the sure fruits of sin.

How enlightening!

See the problem is that the Hebrew language actually has 6 words that mean evil, each being translated differently....sometimes very differently! When the writers of the Old Testament were looking for a word "evil" that when viewed within its context meant sin, the words used were "beliya'al" meaning wicked and/or ungodly, "aven" meaning iniquity, unrighteous or unjust, and "ra'a" meaning evildoer. NEVER is the word "ra" used within this context!

Matthew Henry in his Bible commentary notes:

" (v. 7): I form the light, which is grateful and pleasing, and I create darkness, which is grievous and unpleasing. I make peace (put here for all good) and I create evil, not the evil of sin (God is not the author of that), but the evil of punishment."

Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown in their Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (1871) states:

"create evil--not moral evil ( Jam 1:13 ), but in contrast to "peace" in the parallel clause, war, disaster (compare Psa 65:7 Amo 3:6 )."

What is the result of the actions that we call "sin" today? sorrow, calamity, adversity, affliction, etc......all of the things that this word in the original Hebrew can be translated! Did God create the punishment for sin? Of course! However, even a cursory understanding of the nature of God (obviously something that is completely lacking in most, if not all, skeptics!) would be enough to understand that the way that skeptics attempt to use this verse is abjectly FALSE!

IN ADDITION.....you will find atheists who also attempt to use Lamentations 3:38 and Jeremiah 18:11 to support their flimsy cause. Unfortunately for them, the same word "ra" is used in both of these verses. Again, their case is nullified by FACT! If the writers of these Old Testament books would have intended their writings to indicate that God was the creator of moral evil, they would have used a different word.

For a more contemporary view on this subject, I include (in its entirety) Norman Geisler's response to this supposed Biblical error from his Book When Critics Ask (a very good resource for dealing with Biblical "difficulties.":

"The Bible is clear that God is morally perfect (Deut. 32:4, Matthew 5:4 , and it is impossible for Him to sin (Hebrew 6:1 . At the same time, His absolute justice demands that He punish sin. this judgment takes both temporal and eternal forms (Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:11-15). In its temporal form, the execution of God's justice is sometimes called "evil" because it seems to be evil to those undergoing it (Hebrew 12:11). However, the Hebrew word (ra) used here does not always mean moral evil. Indeed, the context indicates that it should be translated as the NKJV and other modern translation, as "calamity." Thus, God is properly said to be the author of evil in this sense but not in the moral sense, at least no directly.

Further, there is an indirect sense in which God is the author of moral evil. God created moral beings with free choice, and free choice is the origin of moral evil in the universe. So, ultimately God is responsible for making moral creatures who are responsible for moral evil. God made evil possible by creating free creatures, but the free creatures made evil actual. Of course, the possibility of evil (i.e. free choice) is itself a good thing. So, God created only good things, one of which was the power of free choice, and moral creatures produced evil. However, God is the author of a moral universe and in this indirect and ultimate sense is the author of the possibility of evil. Of course, God only permitted evil, but does not promote it; He will ultimately produce a greater good through it (Genesis 50:20; Revelation 21-22.)

This issue seems pretty clear. It is a shame that atheists such as yourself keep harping on this issue as if an answer does not exist.

God did NOT create moral evil! This thought completely mitigates against EVERYTHING contained within Scripture. To arrive at this conclusion, the Bible has to be taken out of context and a philosophical presupposition has to be adhered to. This claim cannot be defended when proper Biblical interpretation is employed.

[Socrates]

:thumb: to both Apologetics for his excellent exegesis of Isaiah 45:7 and to Cherith for his parable illustrating Augustine's argument that evil is really a privation of good.:em7:

DBoone: it's good to check several translations. The King Jimmy's archaic language can mislead in places. :read:

[Piebald]

Yep, I agree with Apologetics! Good Job! You get a Pearl :thumb:

[Solly]

Everything I wanted to say when I saw the title of the thread, has been said already. Well sone guys. :yipee:

[Piebald]

It's hard to believe that the Professor wouldn't have anything to say though :wink:

And what is he a professor of, anyways? :teeth:

[seer]

Very good apologetics, I did a post on this a while back:


"God,Evil, and Judgement"


Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Now the basic meaning of evil (rah in the hebrew) is harm i.e. to harm or destroy. But it also can mean moral evil (sin) as done by men. Now few here believe this verse teaches that God created moral evil (sin). Though some do.

But I maintain that the evil God created and the evil God uses has to do with His righteous judgements against sin. Not that he created men to sin or that He created harm as an entity of it's self.

First let's look at the context of Isaiah:


44:28-45:1,2

"That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid. Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron."

This is clearly in the context of judging (subduing) those nations that have long troubled Israel - doing Rah (evil) to them. And it is also about bringing peace to Israel - both through the work of Cyrus. Evil and peace are not some disembodied entities floating around out there - they are specific action that God does for specific reasons.

Many times Isaiah speaks of evil as judgement,here are but two examples:

Isaiah 31:2

"Yet he (God) also is wise, and will bring evil, and will not call back his words: but will arise against the house of the evildoers, and against the help of them that work iniquity."

47:10,11

"For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me.THEREFORE shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know."

I think this makes the case quite well. But if not,I would ask anyone here to show in the Old Testament where God does not use rah (evil) in the context of righteous judgement against sin. I have yet to find such a passage.


And if that case can not be made then can we all finally agree that God created evil/harm as a righteous judgement against sin?

[Xmansmommy]

Great thread! :thumb:

[The Laughing Man]

I wholeheartedly concur with xmansmommy. :teeth: :yipee:

[DBoone]

Sounds good to me. Phew!
:teeth:

[theist]

Ok, Let me first as a question:
"Did God know Adam would fall?"
no?; Then God is not all-knowing.
yes? Ok, So, God knew Adam would fall and created him anyway? Let me take it a step further. Could God have created an Adam that would not have fell?
no?; God is not all powerful.
yes? Great! So we have God knew Adam would have fell and he could have created an Adam that didn't fall. So what do you have?
You have God creating and Adam that WOULD fall and Adam could do no otherwise because God's foreknowledge is immutable and non-contingent. So, God engineered the fall. We do not know why, only that all things work for the Glory of God! Would you understand grace as you know have- without the fall? Would you have God rescuing you from yourself?!...

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 8:20 - For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope

Evil can't be created outside of God's will.

in HIS grip,

rustyb
:dufus: :dufus: :dufus: :dufus:

[theist]

wow, I didn't know I had so many faces under my name (*notes to self, click ONCE!*)

in HIS grip,

rusty
:dufus:

[apologetics]

Theist,

Did god foreknow that evil would exist when he created a world filled with completely free creatures?

I would have to say, Yes. HOWEVER! This does not mean that God created evil. If you will reread my post, near the bottom, where I give you Dr. Norman Geisler's explanation of Isaiah 45:7. All God can be given credit for is creating the possibility of evil. Human free will actualized this possibility.

A bartender, serving alcohol to someone whom he is told has a designated driver, is creating the possibility of a fatal car accident. The bar patron might take the designated driver up on his offer to drive him home.....but again, he might not! If this drunk bar patron leaves his designated driver behind and chooses to drive himself home and he hits and kills a pedestrian, who gets the blame? The drunk actualized the possibility and the responsibility is all his.

God did not create evil. Biblically, you cannot defend this logically or theologically.

[apologetics]

Hamster,

Thank you for the pearl, but being relatively new here on Tweb, I am curious....

What in the world is a pearl?

I noticed that it appears that everybody has 200. I have 206. Now, of course, that makes me feel smug and conceited :lol:, for which of course, I will seek forgiveness in prayer.....but what is a pearl?

[theist]

Apologetics,

ok, first, let us understand that God's foreknowldge(his will) is immutable and non-contingent.
second, let's understand that nothing can happen outside of God will?

Why is it hard for people to accept that God created an Adam to fall, it's not hard to udnerstand that God knew ada would fall and created him anyway and that God could creat a non-falling Adam.

Now, let's appeal to scriptue. I won't pull up an "God wills evil" or "God wills all(even evil)", instead, I want to appeal to the new testament. read and examine Act 4:27-28

Acts 4:27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, (NASB)
Acts 4:28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. (NASB)

Now, could the cross have NOT happened? Ofcourse not, so, God willed/made people kill our LORD? Well, yes. The same crowd that was praising him, while he centured into jerusalem was the same one that said to kill jesus.

Isaiah 53:10 But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting [Him] to grief; If He would render Himself [as] a guilt offering, He will see [His] offspring, He will prolong [His] days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. (NASB)

Therefore, God willed that Jesus would be crucified and that includes the EVIL acts of murder. I mean, you can't crucify without murder, can you?

in HIS grip,

rustyb
:dufus:

[seer]

So theist, if that is all true, then does God send men to eternal hell for doing what He created them to do? If so - why?

[Michael7]

Many people assert that it is Satan that is the cause of the evil in this world. I believe that since God is all knowing and all powerfull, anything and everything created has a purpose, and nothing happens outside of His will.

Satan used by God – God created Satan – The popular notion that God created Satan as a beautiful angel who later turned to evil is contrary to scripture and reason: If God, who is all wise, and all knowing, created an angel and designed within this angel a will capable of rebelling against Him, and if in His omniscience He knew beforehand that this creature would become evil, is God then any LESS responisble for the Devil? Or even worse, If we say God created a good angel and did not know he would become evil, then the devil got a step ahead of God! If this is the case how can we be sure that it cannot happen again?! In either case there is no way to relieve God from the devil.
God is the creator and user of evil for further blessings
Try to name ONE virtue that is not the direct result of overcoming some form of EVIL. If theologians insist that God never intended for man to sin or experience evil, then they are also saying, of necessity, that God never intended for man to have any virtue or to know good!


(Romans 9:17 KJV)
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

The Holy Prophets acclaimed it! - (Amos 3:6 KJV)
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done [it]?
God Himself has made it clear that He is the creator of evil - (Isaiah 45:7 KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Isaiah 54:16 KJV Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
Is it so hard to comprehend that the devil is used by God in our firey trials? 1 Peter 4:12 KJV Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
Our trials and testing are associated in the Word of God with the ministry of Satan.
Revelation 2:10 KJV Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Luke 22:31-32 KJV And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift you as wheat: (32) But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

1 Peter 5:8-9 KJV Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: (9) Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
This verse is better understood with the Amplified version: 1 Peter 5:8-9 : Be well balanced (temperate, sober of mind), be vigilant and cautious at all times; for that enemy of yours, the devil, roams around like a lion roaring [ in fierce hunger ], seeking someone to seize upon and devour. 9 Withstand him; be firm in faith [ against his onset – rooted, established, strong, immovable, and determined ], knowing that the same (identical) sufferings are appointed to your brotherhood (the whole body of christians) throughout the whole world.

Good without the knowledge of evil can hardly be said to be good. Just as noone could speak of day if night were never known. How could we know life if there was no death? What would be known of wealth, if there were no poverty? No man can be declared strong until he has been tested for weakness. Nor can he be an overcomer until he has faced the dreadfull foe. No man can be an overcoming Son of God until he has encountered the Serpent in the Wilderness and come forth victorious. This is a glimpse into God’s perfect wisdom in the formation of the human race and bringing forth an opposite, the evil one, through whom he would bring his vast family of sons to maturity. Hebrews 5:8 KJV Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Hebrews 2:10 KJV For it became him, …in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

It is through our afflictions and sufferings that we are purified as gold. To burn away the wood, hay and stubble. David rightly exclaims in Psalms 119:71 KJV [It is] good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.

Consider Job:
GOD is so powerful that Satan had to ask GOD for permission for every attack on Job. (Job 1:6, 2:1).

Job was an upright man, wealthy in temporal things, rich in spiritual things and proclaimed perfect by the Lord Himself, yet he had not been “tried by fire” as Son’s of God must be- he was as yet untried, untested, and uproven. In the midst of Job’s ordeal of affliction the spirit of prophecy came upon him, and he spoke concerning the purpose of God in it all. He declared “Job 23:10 KJV But he knoweth the way that I take: [when] he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.
The entire story of Job is a wonderfull illustration of how and why God uses evil through the devil. Notice first that when Satan presents himself to God with the rest of the Sons of God that it is God who brings Job to Satans attention (Job 1:8). It was because God desired to test Job, for Job was a perfect man, yet untried. In a very short time Job looses everything. Suffering unspeakable hardships. And what does this man of God do? He gets down and worships God saying: Job 1:21-22 KJV And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD HATH TAKEN AWAY; blessed be the name of the LORD. (22) In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

And in the end Job was greatly blessed by his hard and bitter experience. If God uses Satan as a minister for good in the case of this one individual, is it not hard to believe that all evil is utilized in such a way?


Consider the New Testament:

Mark 1:12 KJV And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.
Here we have the Holy Spirit of God driving the sinless Son of God into the wilderness to be tempted of Satan. What for? Ah, it was necessary for the Son to be proven, to be made strong, to overcome in these realms before proceeding into His glorious ministry and the death of the cross.
Truly the apostle Paul fully understood this great truth and practiced it himself. He instructed the Corinthian believers to “deliver such as one to Satan FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus” (1Cor 5:5) And he goes on to say in his letter to Timothy that he himself delivered certain brethren unto Satan “that they might learn not to blaspheme.” 1 Tim 1:20.
Paul seems to have undergone this kind of experience also, for he says, “Lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, THE MESSENGER OF SATAN TO BUFFET ME, lest I should be exalted above measure” 2 Cor 12:7

All this clearly shows that Satan is a creature created by God for a specific work, a work that results in blessings for Gods children and in the further glory of God!

God Bless,
Mike

[seer]

Good without the knowledge of evil can hardly be said to be good. Just as noone could speak of day if night were never known. How could we know life if there was no death?

Yes,the contrast theory. A theory that has much merit. But let me ask you Mike. How does God's punishment against sin/sinners work in this model? Why does Satan and His buddies have to tormented in the lake of fire for eons? I mean they are only doing what God created them to do.

[apologetics]

theist:

I grant you that I don't have all the answers when it comes to this subject. However, I feel that I am in very good company since this has been a hotly debated issue since Augustine. There are many views on foreknowledge/predetermination: simple foreknowledge, Calvanist, Open Theism, Molinism. All make sound arguments in many areas, but all are open to criticism.

The question that needs to be answered, and of course cannot be, is what God knew the moment BEFORE creation. Many theologists maintain that God's complete knowledge of the eventsw to come was created simultaneously with creation. Therefore, just because he knew the second AFTER creation what every action would be, does not mean that it all actions were fatalistically predetermined to happen.

Now, I think you need to be very careful about reading specific meaning into the English translation of words (see my first post here as evidence of this). Look over several translations and then consult what the original word means in the original language. If "predestined" in Acts 28 were so cut-and-dry, then this whole theological debate would have been taken care of by the early Church Fathers by 300 A.D. It wasn't, therefore, be careful to read any specific meaning into words, especially in those areas of theological debate.

My bottom line on this issue: I maintain that God foreknowledge isw complete (beliefs that open theists and Molinists do not maintian) AND that man is completely free to chose his actions (something that the Calvinists do not believe). How is this possible? I don't know! But, we are finite creatures and he is infinite. It is possible that the actual workings of foreknowledge are completely beyond the grasps of our minds, therefore, there is no chance of anyone figuring it out! This is a great topic to debate, but I would certainly hope (and I know that this is NOT the case) that there are not people out there who decide NOT to pursue Jesus because they cannot wrap their mortal minds around God's omniscience.

Did God act within time and space? The Bible speaks very clearly that he did. Can God alter events within time and space? Of course he can, or else I would not believe him to be omnipotent or omnipresent. However, how he does this is beyond me.

[theist]

seer,

tell me this, do you feel that you are responsible for your sins?
God's total and complete soverignity is a mystery. I do not really care too much for "Did God will me to eat chicken tonight?!" no doubt you make decesions everyday, YOU do. But we know they lie withing the immutable will of God. Instead I focus on the inability to act spiritual in a natural, fallen state- which man can't. YOU are responsible for YOUR sins because you DID do them. Do you assert that God made you do them? You done what was natural to you, why are you complaining :P


Romans 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. (NASB)
Romans 7:9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; (NASB)

By default, you are condemned in your natural state. Glory to God because he shows mercy on us!


in HIS grip,

rustyb
:dufus:

[seer]

YOU are responsible for YOUR sins because you DID do them. Do you assert that God made you do them? You done what was natural to you, why are you complaining.

If I programme a computer to do A, who is ultimately responsible for A? And if you programmed a computer to do A would you then become angry at the computer for doing A and break it to peices? No, we would call that anger irrational. Is God irrational,Theist?

[theist]

apologetics,

I expected you to cop-out and say that man's will and God's are a paradox and that we can't know how it's true. I've heard this said from many a pulput. You know what the only difference in a contradiction and a paradox? A paradox can be proven true. But, preachers stand up and say it's a paradox and make no attempt to resolve the issue. Instead, they leave it with an empty ended argument. No resolve met!

Martin Luther, in his book The Bondage of the Will, contests that God's foreknowledge is non-contingent and immutable. Do you agree? He said Erasmus was reverting back to Roman Catholcism for saying God's foreknowledge was contingent on man's will. Therefore, God's foreknowledge is not merely a future abscent of him, but his purposeful plan! You ever wonder why God works all things to his glory? Do you not belive the fall works towards his glory? Adam could NOT have fallen, God's foreknowledge would not allow. To do otherwise would "surprise" God the Father and would not be part of HIS will and foreknowledge. Before Adam was created, the fall was in the Father's mind.

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; (NASB)

Was the fall fair?
Daniel 4:37 "Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride." (NASB)

Adam done exactly what he wanted to.

Point to ponder. God says he has declared the number of days we live (the verse escapes me now, It's a Psalm). Do you assert that you are so free that you decide how long you live and when you die? if there is one thing you shoudl have, it's whether you choose to live or die! but God has said, "before you were born, I have numbered your days..."(paraphrased)
Another Point?
God places who he wants in authority. Paul asserts God places men in authority. How does he do it unless he actually does it? he doesn't do it via anyway but his foreknowledge and will. You thought your vote counted? ;)

in HIS grip,

rustyb
:dufus:

[apologetics]

Today @ 01:07 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=86697#post86697)
theist:

apologetics,

I expected you to cop-out and say that man's will and God's are a paradox and that we can't know how it's true.

Theist, give me a break! How is this a copout? Can you fully explain to me the trinity? How can three be one? One God manifest in three persons who are eternally distinct? What we are talking about is one of the aspects of God's nature and if you think you have a difinitive answer, then you should be the writing books because you will have figured out what theologians have been arguing about for centuries.

On of the Christian philosophers who I admire more than many, William Lane Craig is a advocate of Molinism or middle knowledge. This guy has degree upon degree and a position in a prestigious theological seminary. And you know what? He is criticized by other theologians for being WRONG! You think you have the answers, you are deluding yourself!

Martin Luther, in his book The Bondage of the Will, contests that God's foreknowledge is non-contingent and immutable. Do you agree?

Yes. I'm I right? I don't know.

You ever wonder why God works all things to his glory?

Yes, I said as much in my last post. I believe that he operates within time and space, but just how he does this is beyond me. See what you seem to be failing to see, or conviently sidestepping is this issue:

If God words all things to his glory, then he operates in time and space and he changes things as they occur! If he changes things "for his glory" then there was a time when events were not as he wanted them. If he changes things, then his foreknowledge is determined by human events......i.e. open theolgy or Molinism. If they work out for his glory because that was how it was always set up to be, then you have Calvinism.

Do you not belive the fall works towards his glory?

Sure, but couldn't have God been just as glorified by the perfect creatures he had created without the fall?

One thing on all Bible quotes to support your position. I would have you read a very good author, Dr. Gregory Boyd. Boyd is an open theist who believes that God's foreknowledge is not closed, but open to human events. He supports his theory, as do all open theists (i.e. Clark Pinnock) with lots of Bible verses. Molinists do it. Calvinists do it.

What I ask you is this: Why can all the sides use the Bible to support there theory if there isn't something greater going on that is beyond us?

Point to ponder. God says he has declared the number of days we live (the verse escapes me now, It's a Psalm). Do you assert that you are so free that you decide how long you live and when you die?

I believe that he knows the number of our days. Does he physically remove us at his whim? I don't believe that! Saying so would mean that the deaths of the women who were raped and murdered were so designed by God. This would mean that the rapist had NO CHOICE but to rape and kill her on that day and this means that his free will and, therefore, all our free will is not really free at all.

[Theolog]

Only in an indirect sense did God create evil. Here is how it works. God created man in his image(whatever that is supposed to mean) so man had free will and created sin. Of course God predetermined that it would happen because He knew he could use evil to punish the very sinful man that created evil.


Conclusion God created man, Man is evil and God said it was good.


Now if God said it was “good” then it must be good.


Now the next time you see a loved one go to hell you have at least the comfort of knowing that it was good, so quit whining about evil god.


As humans our myopic sense of self worth is greatly exaggerated to the reality of our actual worth. Just because we do not have cute little horns does not mean we are not children of the devil.

Mankind is actually blight on this planet and thinks it’s a gift to the world. (kind of like my ex mother in law)

Humans are an evil lot and surely deserve to have the lights put out. Our history is clearly a small example of our nature.

The question should not be “Is God evil”? but rather “good or evil why on earth would God want to save some humans”.

Once you understand why you will truly understand the cosmic and mystical nature of Gods Grace.

[Theolog]

Only in an indirect sense did God create evil. Here is how it works. God created man in his image(whatever that is supposed to mean) so man had free will and created sin. Of course God predetermined that it would happen because He knew he could use evil to punish the very sinful man that created evil.


Conclusion God created man, Man is evil and God said it was good.


Now if God said it was “good” then it must be good.


Now the next time you see a loved one go to hell you have at least the comfort of knowing that it was good, so quit whining about evil god.


As humans our myopic sense of self worth is greatly exaggerated to the reality of our actual worth. Just because we do not have cute little horns does not mean we are not children of the devil.

Mankind is actually blight on this planet and thinks it’s a gift to the world. (kind of like my ex mother in law)

Humans are an evil lot and surely deserve to have the lights put out. Our history is clearly a small example of our nature.

The question should not be “Is God evil”? but rather “good or evil why on earth would God want to save some humans”.

Once you understand why God saves some humans you will truly understand the cosmic and mystical nature of Gods Grace.

[theist]

seer,

I'll play it safe and ask if God is fair by attributing sin to all men? (That through Adam's sin we have all been condemned) So tell me, are you free from sin? I'd say God's will is purposeful and Just. So, you would assert that you were not there to say "Adam, dude! Don't eat it! you're sending us to hell!" I feel, I hope, you you know that God created Adam to fall? My early questions should prove much - if you hold to an all-knowing and all-powerful God?

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned -- " Romans 5:12

Ok, from the get go you are condemned. YOUR will can't save you, don't hold onto it too much because God asks that you check it at the door, truly to deny yourself.

I will give you ground based on my minimal understanding on certain issues in that you can act "freely" within the scope God allows.
Ex: The crucifixion of Christ could do nothing but happen! If all things work for the Glory of God, then are we resposible for God's glory?

"On this point many questions have arisen. The chief one is that which touches on the connection between the will of God and the will of man. What is the relation between these? What is the order in which they stand to each other? Which is first? There is no dispute as to the existence of these two separate wills. There is a will in God, and there is also a will in man. Both of these are in continual exercise; - God willeth; and man willeth. Nothing in the universe takes place without the will of God. This is admitted. But it is asked, Is this will first in everything? " - Horatius Bonar

What am I left with? scattered thoughts. I see God's foreknowledge as immutable and non-contingent. Therefore, what God has purposed will be accomplished. What is in God's foreknowledge will happen and can't be changed. I think you will agree? Then can the future happen any other way that what God has purposed? If so, then God's will is not immutable...

in His grip,

rustyb
:dufus:

[Ethos]

Evil is gods way of testing us as human beings, our faith.. Our ability to perservere, to turn our backs to temptation. Without evil (tribulation) how could god seperate the worthy from the unworthy??? If all was good and dandy all the time, what would be the need for evil in the world?? Heaven certainly isn't an easy place to get into.. And it shouldn't be.. That's what evil's for.. God knows exactly what hes doing.. C'mon he's God!

[theist]

apologetics,

Am I imparted with special knowledge that God has granted me, only? Nope. I do see you swaying and not being very concrete in your own convictions.

you state, when questioning your belief on God's will.
"Yes. I'm I right? I don't know."
You don't know if you're right? Then why are you even talking about the topic? Are you looking for answers? Is truth relative?

I don't really care about YOUR decisions on whether or not you decide to get chicken for dinner. I only care about the exaggertated participation of man's will in salvation...

"Does it lie within the province of man’s will to accept or reject the Lord Jesus as Saviour? Granted that the Gospel is preached to the sinner, that the Holy Spirit convicts him of his lost condition, does it, in the final analysis, lie within the power of his own will to resist or yield himself up to God? The answer to this question defines our conception of human depravity. That man is a fallen creature all professing Christians will allow, but what many of them mean by "fallen" is often difficult to determine. The general impression seems to be that man is now mortal, that he is no longer in the condition in which he left the hands of his Creator, that he is liable to disease, that he inherits evil tendencies; but, that if he employs his powers to the best of his ability, somehow he will be happy at last. O, how far short of the sad truth! Infirmities, sickness, even corporeal death, are but trifles in comparison with the moral and spiritual effects of the Fall! It is only by consulting the Holy Scriptures that we are able to obtain some conception of the extent of that terrible calamity. When we say that man is totally depraved, we mean that the entrance of sin into the human constitution has affected every part and faculty of man’s being. Total depravity means that man is, in spirit and soul and body, the slave of sin and the captive of the Devil—walking "according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" (Eph. 2:2). This statement ought not to need arguing: it is a common fact of human experience. Man is unable to realize his own aspirations and materialize his own ideals. He cannot do the things that he would. There is moral inability which paralyzes him. This is proof positive that he is no free man, but instead, the slave of sin and Satan. "Ye are of your father the Devil, and the lusts (desires) of your father ye will do." (John 8:44). Sin is more than an act or a series of acts; it is a man’s make-up. It has blinded the understanding, corrupted the heart, and alienated the mind from God. And the will has not escaped. The will is under the dominion of sin and Satan. Therefore, the will is not free. In short, the affections love as they do and the will chooses as it does because of the state of the heart, and because the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked "There is none that seeketh after God" (Rom. 3:11). " - Arthur Pink


personally, I don't know why you are so adament about your seemingly disconcern over God's will. Not a personal attack- Just you don't take a stand on certain issues. Heck, I'd like to know what side of the fence your on :P

God's grace with you all your days...

in HIS grip,

rustyb
:dufus:

[theist]

Triphicus,

God does not tempt man with evil.

in HIS grip,

rustyb
:dufus:

[seer]

Try answering my points theist:

1.If I programme a computer to do A, who is ultimately responsible for A?

2.And if you programmed a computer to do A would you then become angry at the computer for doing A and break it to peices?

3.No, we would call that anger irrational. Is God irrational,Theist?


Who is responsible for sin theist? Who is the author of sin...

[Ethos]

Theist,
I know GOD doesn;t tempt man with evil. I never said that. I never said GOD tempts man at all. Thats one of his servants, Satans job.

[Ethos]

And, just to nip any criticism of that last comment in the bud, when I say Satan is a servant of god, I do not mean in the sense that he is still in god's good grace. Rather, that God is all powerful, and has the last word over his actions, as is proved in the book of job, when Satan had to wait in line to ask God's permission...

[theist]

free-will and moral responsibility?


I was once engaged in an on-line debate with a gentleman who said, among other things, that the Calvinist's God is a monster because it is impossible to have moral responsibility without free will. Since the bounds of the on-line debate were not conductive for detailed debate, I challenged this gentleman to a formal written debate. He said he would not do so because he did not want to "eviscerate" me.
I'll let you readers decide if I would have been eviscerated.
The first thing to note is that the entire Arminian argument about free will and responsibility is found not in Scripture, but in philosophy. Indeed, when I quoted Romans 9:16 to this gentleman, he said that we must interpret Scripture based on what makes logical sense, not based on what Scripture actually says. Romans 9:16, as you may recall, states: "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy." It is self-evident as to why this gentleman would need to ignore such a passage as this.
The argument certainly does seem to have some merit in philosophical grounds. After all, how "fair" is it to condemn someone for being what he or she is? If someone can't help but sin, then why should that person be punished?
But while the Arminian tends to focus on the negative-the sinner who can't help but sin-there is another aspect to this issue that cannot be ignored. The Arminian argument is that it is not "fair" to punish people who had no choice in sinning. Therefore, it cannot be "fair" to reward people who had no choice in doing good either. After all, if a man does good, he is only doing what he is "programmed" to do, and nothing more.
It would be possible to argue this issue for hours, but there is really only one point that the Calvinist needs to make that ends the argument immediately. It is, so to speak, the atomic bomb over Hiroshima. It is the silver bullet for the werewolf. It is the instant kill that settles the debate.
God does not have free will.
That's right, all these philosophical problems that the Arminian brings up are mere dust because God Himself does not have free will. God cannot sin. It is against His nature to sin, and therefore it is impossible for God to sin. We know from the Scripture that God is perfectly good in His nature. Therefore, God does not have free will because God cannot sin.
This is not a problem for the Calvinist because Calvinism recognizes that the will need not be free in order to maintain moral responsibility. It is, however, devastating to the Arminian position. It becomes impossible to hold to the Arminian argument after this bombshell is dropped.
Some have tried to get around it by saying that God could do evil, He just keeps Himself from doing it. This is nothing less than blasphemy, however-although I grant that the people who say it usually do not realize that it is blasphemous. God's nature determines who He is. When we read passages like Hebrews 6:18 we discover that it is not an issue of God being able to sin but choosing not to-it is impossible for God to sin!
If it is impossible for God to sin, then He must necessarily always do good. But if He is always good without the possibility of evil, then according to the Arminian there is no goodness in God's lack of evil for He could not have sinned in the first place. If God does not have the freedom to sin, then God's actions cannot be morally good any more than our actions could be morally wrong if we did not have the freedom to do good. It is merely how God is-there is nothing good nor evil about it. Rather, God's goodness becomes "neutral" for you cannot call something good when it is impossible for it to be evil, can you?
How logical is it to say, "God is not honest because He doesn't have the capacity to lie"? How logical is it to say, "God is not just because He doesn't have the capacity to punish wrongly"? How logical is it to say, "God is not good because He does not have the capacity to do evil"? It is plainly demonstrated that these characteristics do not depend on freedom, but rather on what God is.
How logical is it to say, "Man is not dishonest because he doesn't have the capacity to tell the truth"? How logical is it to say, "Man is not unjust because he doesn't have the capacity to punish wickedness"? How logical is it to say, "Man is not evil because he does not have the capacity to do good"? Once again, it is plainly demonstrated that these characteristics do not depend on freedom, but rather on what man is.
Something is evil if it is evil. Is it just to punish something if it cannot help but be evil? Well, is it just to praise God if He cannot help but be good?
Examine that and you will find your answer.


in HIS grip,

rustyb
:dufus:

[theist]

source of the above is:
http://thecalvinist.com/theology/arminianism/responsibility.html

in HIS grip,

rustyb
:dufus:

[seer]

It's like this theist. The responsibility for sin still lies with God. God,not man, is the sole creator of sin. Now you say that God is not responsible for His goodness, His nature is, which obviously is beyond His will to control. Fine, but the fact remains that you believe that God is the sole creator of sin, and that God then eternally harms men for doing what He alone created them to do.

Just say it theist - God alone is the author of sin, and God eternally harms men for doing what He alone created them to do, for in fact doing His will.

And yes we may have become moral horrors by birth, and aprat from our choice. And yes in spite of that we are still moral horrors. But believing that God will punish in such a case, since He created us moral horrors in the first place, brings into question both His love and justice.

[PRAISE]

04-30-2003 @ 07:14 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=83290#post83290)
Cherith:

At a certain college, there was a professor with a reputation for being tough on Christians. At the first class every semester, he asked if anyone was a Christian and proceeded to degrade and mock their statement of faith.

One semester, he asked the question and a young man raised his hand when asked if anyone was a Christian.

The professor asked, "Did God make everything, young
man?" "Yes he did, sir," the young man replied.

The professor responded, "If God made everything, then God made evil, and IF we can only create from within ourselves, THEN God is evil."

The student didn't have a response and the professor was happy to have once again proved the Christian faith to be a myth.

Then another student raised her hand and asked, "May I ask you something, sir?" "Yes you may," responded the professor.

The young woman stood up and said, "Sir, is there such thing as cold?"

"Of course there is, what kind of a question is that?
Haven't you ever been cold?"

The young lady replied, "Actually, sir, cold does not exist. What we consider to be cold is really only the absence of heat. Absolute zero is when there is absolutely no heat, but cold does not really exist. We have only created that term to describe how we feel when heat is not there."

The young woman continued, "Sir, is there such thing as dark?"

Once again, the professor responded, "Of course there
is."

And once again, the student replied, "Actually, sir, darkness does not exist. Darkness is really only the absence of light. Darkness is only a term man developed to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally, the young lady asked, "Sir, is there such thing as evil?"

The professor responded, "Of course. We have rapes,
and murders and violence everywhere in the world, those things are evil."

The student replied, "Actually, sir, evil does not exist. Evil is simply the absence of God. Evil is a term man developed to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. It isn't like truth, or love, which exist as virtues like heat and light. Evil is simply the state where God is not present, like cold without heat or darkness without light."

The professor had nothing to say.

Some very interesting points! Thanx for posting this!

PRAISE:thumb:

[theist]

God is not the author of sin, but he does will sin. Adam sinned and God held all of mankind responsible. I do accept and believe that God knew Adam would sin and created him. I do not belive Adam could do no otherwise. God himseld, cannot sin, therefore he is not the author of it. He willed lots of things he is not the author of. Like I asked earlier, I think, would anyone understand grace without an apparent idea od what sin is? Would you cling as you do to the cross, if you had no idea the reason you were clinging? Sin was willed and has a purpose, other than these details- I have no comprehension of the will of God, other than he works all things for His glory! ofcourse, who here, when they get to heaven is going to say "God, you know good and well you made me steal that gum when I was 5!" to which a reply like "YOU wanted the gum and YOU took it, I didn't tempt you- you tempted yourself and you did exactly what your sinful heart wanted to do" is in order. You are responsible for your actions, your salvation is in the hands of God, though. Man's will is within the scope of God's foreknowledge- I can understand but a little. God's grace upon you all.


in HIS grip,

rustyb
:dufus:

[Ethos]

Okay seer, If God created us to do sin, then punishes us- What of the ones who go to heaven??

Were they punished? Or rewarded?

God doesn't want us to sin... But it is a way for him to weed out the worthy from the unworthy..
I have to work at being a better, more worthy person every day.. Its not something that comes easily, and yes, I do make mistakes, and yes, I do get angry, and sometimes proud, I am merely a human being... But I am trying with everything I am, through God to be better, I actually care..
I am going against my own nature at times to be joined with the nature of god, which is perfect. No, I'll never be perfect, noone will... God knows, I dont want to be, what would be the fun in that? But through God I will strive to be a better person, every day, than I was yesterday... And that is Gods nature and through him it becomes MY NATURE, that is how he wants it to be..

To be joined with the glory of the spirit we must first overcome the flesh..
The eternal peace that lieth in my soul, is the greatest reward I could ever hope to receive from the Lord..
Now is that punishment??

[seer]

God is not the author of sin, but he does will sin. Adam sinned and God held all of mankind responsible. I do accept and believe that God knew Adam would sin and created him. I do not belive Adam could do no otherwise. God himseld, cannot sin, therefore he is not the author of it.

Theist you are backpeddling! Again let's use my example. If I programme a computer to do A, who is the author of A? Your point is completely illogical. Is A born from the heart of the computer or from the heart of the programmer? In your model God is the sole author of sin, sin is born from His heart, as A is born from programmers heart.

[theist]

seer,

Don't ask me. We can see such questions already existing in the scriptures. How can God use other nations to punish Israel and then punish those other nations for what they did to Israel? read Isaiah 10, think of Assyria or Babylon.... God used other nations to plunder and kill and destroy those nations- Does he hold the nations resposible, yes... It's a mystery of God. The question you asked doesn't apply to me, but also to yourself. You know God uses men to bring about his actions and holds them responsible- But, why is it wrong for God to use a sinner (romans 5:19) to accomplish his just, good, and purposeful will? Does he cause the rapist to rape? no, does he will it, yes. God did not tempt the rapist, he merely willed the rapist to do such. Therefore, he is not the CAUSE of the rape.... This is truly a mystery of God....

You ask too many questions that don't have "proper" answers and you might become someone who personofies God just to work out their own problems with God's complete and sovereign will- et a la open theists.

As I said before, I do not concern myself over a petty "will" of man. There is no doubt you choose to make certain decisions all your days. The ONLY matter I concern myself over is whether a non-beliver can choose, by their own "free-will", to accept and embrace Christ Jesus.

Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven
- C.H. Spurgeon

in HIS grip,

rustyb
:dufus:

[seer]

Does he cause the rapist to rape? no, does he will it, yes. God did not tempt the rapist, he merely willed the rapist to do such. Therefore, he is not the CAUSE of the rape....

Theist, in your belief system God is the first and prime cause of rape. God created the man to rape, and it is God's will that he does rape. You can't escape the reproach your system brings on God's good name.

Again Theist, you have avoided this question time and time again: If a man programmes a computer to do A, who is the author of A. The computer or the man.

Have the courage to face the logic of your beliefs Theist.

[Ethos]

God didn't program us to sin Seer. It is merely our own selfishness, stubborness, ignorance, desire and inability to surrender our own will to God which causes us to sin. Once under the Lord, there is no desire left for the flesh, therefore, no more weakness leading to sin... Now thats what I call some good programing!

[Ethos]

For with a man it is impossible. But through God all things are possible!

[seer]

...God didn't program us to sin Seer.

I agree, but that is what Theist believes - that God created us to sin. Making God the author of sin.

[theist]

seer, I don't think you've answered any of my questions.
Did God know Adam would fall? if so, he created him knowing Adam would fall (we accept that God's foreknowledge is immutable, thus Adam could do no otherwise)
Could God have made an Adam that didn't fall? (yes, God is all-knowing and all-powerful)

What do you have? You have God creating and Adam that could have do nothing BUT fall.

Paul tells us that Christ was an eternal purpose, meaning, it had no beginning- therefore, it came before the fall.

Ephesians 3:11 according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. (NIV)

So, could Adam NOT have fallen seer? We can not understand God's "secret" will, but, we can readily see his revelatory will- it is by the means we can understand his justice, love, mercy, and compassion.

So you tell me, is Adam "A"? Did God program Adam to do a certain thing? Could "A" go against the programers will and act accordingly to his own "free-will". This is far simpler than "did God make the rapist rape?"...

Clearly defined within scripture and with the aid of logic; I bid you, seer, answer me that....

"his own nature"?
John 8:44 "You are of [your] father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [nature], for he is a liar and the father of lies. (NASB)

Although not completely within the scope of sin or rape, we understand God's complete sovereignty- as paul illustrates in Romans 9...

Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" (NASB)
Romans 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? (NASB)
Romans 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? (NASB)


in HIS grip,

rustyb

[seer]

Again Theist you are avoiding the question. Please give a direct answer to my question. If a man programmed a computer to do A. Who is the author of A?

BTW - I believe God's foreknowledge is not the source of all causal actions and is contingent on our choices. So no,your argument does not hold.

Just say what is in your heart Theist - God alone is the author of ALL sin. People are watching...

[theist]

seer,

"BTW - I believe God's foreknowledge is not the source of all causal actions and is contingent on our choices. So no,your argument does not hold."

"It is fundamentally necessary and wholesome for Christians to know that God foreknows nothing contingently, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His own immutable, eternal and infallible will. This bombshell knocks free-will flat, and utterly shatters it; so that those who want to assert it must either deny my bombshell, or pretend not to notice it, or find some other way of dodging it.
Surely it was you, my good Erasmus, who a moment ago asserted that God is by nature just, and kindness itself? If this is true, does it not follow that He is immutably just and kind? that, as His nature remains unchanged to all eternity, so do His justice and kindness? And what is said of His justice and kindness must be said also of His knowledge, His wisdom, His goodness, His will, and the other Divine attributes. But if it is religious, godly and wholesome, to affirm these things of God, as you do, what has come over you, that now you should contradict yourself by affirming that it is irreligious, idle and vain to say that God foreknows by necessity? You insist that we should learn the immutability of God's will, while forbidding us to know the immutably of His foreknowledge! Do you suppose that He does not will what He foreknows, or that He does not foreknow what He wills? If he wills what He foreknows, His will is eternal and changeless, because His nature is so. From which it follows, by resistless logic, that all we do, however it may appear to us to be done mutably and contingently, is in reality done necessarily and immutably in respect of God's will. For the will of God is effective and cannot be impeded, since power belongs to God's nature; and His wisdom is such that He cannot be deceived. Since, then His will is not impeded, what is done cannot but be done where, when, how, as far as, and by whom, He foresees and wills...
I could wish, indeed, that a better term was available for our discussion than the accepted one, necessity, which cannot accurately be used of either man's will or God's. Its meaning is too harsh, and foreign to the subject; for it suggests some sort of compulsion, and something that is against one's will, which is no part of the view under debate. This will, whether it be God's or man's does what it does, good or bad, under no compulsion, but just as it wants or pleases, as if totally free. Yet the will of God, which rules over our mutable will, is changeless and sure - as Boetius sings, Immovable Thyself, Thou movement giv'st to all; and our will, principally because of its corruption, can do no good of itself. The reader's understanding, therefore, must supply what the word itself fails to convey, from his knowledge of the intended signification - the immutable will of God on the one hand, and the impotence of our corrupt will on the other. Some have called it necessity of immutability, but the phrase is both grammatically and theologically defective." - Martin Luther

seer, your argument doesn't hold.


God decrees all, all according to HIS purpose.
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; (NASB)

Daniel 4:35 "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And [among] the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?' (NASB)

Does God make the rapist rape? no.
Does God will it? yes.
Does God will you to buy a steak? yes.
Does God make you buy the steak? Ask your ownself that, I don't remember God twisting your arm to buy the steak. You happen to have wanted the steak and sought after it. God allowed such, and it is his foreknowledge, thus, I say you could not have had enough "free-will" to NOT want steak, but to infact go against YOUR heart and want chicken. make sense? Same goes for the rapist. The guilt remains on the sinner.

The rapist is by default, inclined to sin- he therefore does what his natural heart wants to do. God didn't plant that sin in his heart. As I have stated, my concern is whether Adam could NOT have sinned. You infact claim he could NOT have sinned, this thwarted the eternal purpose of the cross! You evade MY questions because YOU will make God limited in knowledge and lack in power.

in HIS grip,

rustyb

[theist]

seer,

Your true colors are showing, one thread it's universalism and another it's open theism...

in HIS grip,

rustyb

[Ethos]

Does God make the rapist rape? no.
Does God will it? yes.

THAT is messed up... Say your prayers tonight buddy..

[seer]

Your true colors are showing, one thread it's universalism and another it's open theism...

Have you taken to lying now Theist? But of course, that is what God has willed you to do!

[seer]

The rapist is by default, inclined to sin- he therefore does what his natural heart wants to do. God didn't plant that sin in his heart. As I have stated, my concern is whether Adam could NOT have sinned. You infact claim he could NOT have sinned, this thwarted the eternal purpose of the cross! You evade MY questions because YOU will make God limited in knowledge and lack in power.

First, I could care less what Luther says. He is completely wrong. And try speaking for yourself. You are a weak debater that is why you must quote these silly MEN.

Second you said"God didn't plant that sin in his heart." Who did? You said that God created Adam to sin, so if God didn't plant that seed of sin - who did? Or were you untruthful when you said that God created Adam to sin.

[seer]

BTW Theist, if you are correct. When we sin we are just as much in God's will as when we are obedient! So we should rejoice in our sin knowing we are doing God's will!

[theist]

You don't agree what comes to pass is because God willed it? How can something come to pass unless it be willed from above? Maybe we need to define "Will"... God did not make it happen, he merely allowed it to happen in that he willed those men to act as natural agents. If God DIDN'T will it, then it wouldn't have happened. Nothing Happens APART from God's will...
Instead, you say MAN willed it, apart from God's will, I'm going to say that's the a lie because man acts within the will of God.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends-- even the wicked for a day of disaster. (NIV)

Argue with these verse:
Lam. 3:37 Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? (NIV)
Lam. 3:38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come? (NIV)
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (NIV)

ALL things happen because God decrees it. Needless to say, he allows it.

in HIS grip,

rustyb

[Ethos]

He allows it, because without evil there could be no good. It's the Yin and the Yang, the balance of the Universe, which is such a complex thing I don't even want to get into it.
But That and that alone is the reason why Satan still exists, to be the bearer of the will for evil, instead of wiping him out after his failed attempt to overthrow him, God gave to him hell and the freedom to roam the earth to test us, and try to lead us into tempation.

So in his will he gave Satan the will to lead us to death..

But it is NOT God's will. Gods will leads us to life.

He would much rather us repent, than sin. So therefore, it isn't God that wills the rapist to rape, it is Satan..

Sinners that haven't repented are under Satan as we speak, especially rapists and murderers. They are PURE EVIL!! AND They DO NOT belong in heaven, they belong in hell, and that is exactly where they are headed as we speak.. That is why it exists, as a trash can for the evil, the trash of our humanity and Satan is like a custodian..

They have nothing to do with God, and God has nothing to do with them. They are of Satan, and of his will. NOT GODS!!

[seer]

Fine theist, then when we sin we are just as much in God's will as when we are obedient! So we should rejoice in our sin knowing we are doing God's will!

And God is the author of sin, according to you. Just be a man and stand up for you beliefs as they actually are.

[Ethos]

Okay, reading back on the last paragraph of that last post, I realize how harsh and judgemental I sounded (only human). I don't mean to say that all sinners are trash of our humanity. We are all sinners right?? I just meant the truly evil ones, Like rapists, murderers, molesters, you get the idea... But even them I have been told not to judge, so I will just take back the entire trash statement. It was uncalled for, and I apologize.:O)

[theist]

Tric,

You must not have read the verse, I'll paste them again.

Lam. 3:37 Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? (NIV)
Lam. 3:38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?

Meaning, all things happen because God decrees it. So, satan tempting takes place because God decrees it.

I am not saying God makes it happen, I'm saying he allows it to happen. And yes, they do it because of their natural fallen state.

in HIS grip,

rustyb

[theist]

seer,

I do not come in the spirit of debate, but conversational dialogue. I still ask the questions though:

Did God know Adam would sin?
Could God create an Adam that couldn't sin?

Also, I think you misunderstand "will"... There isn't a tommorrow unless God wills it, you agree? Ok, If I plan to go kill 30 people tommorrow and God wills me another day, I will more than likely kill 30 people. Same for me if I plan to go spread the Gospel to 30 people, I have it in my heart to do it and God wills the time and the ability to do it. Please answer the questions, though.

in HIS grip,

rustyb

[theist]

seer,

also, you say I say "God is the author of sin", which I have said on many occasions is NOT the case. God created a creation that did not follow his ordinances, thus, they sinned against HIM. get it?
But the fact remains, the cross was purposed eternally, meaning, the Isaiah 53 act was predestined BEFORE the fall, the will to crush the SON for the transgression of many came BEFORE the fall.

in HIS grip,

rustyb

[Ethos]

So in his will he gave Satan the will to lead us to death..

But it is NOT God's will. Gods will leads us to life.

[theist]

tric,

hmmm, I'm not sure...
God wills all.
He also works all things to HIS glory.
God allows satan to tempt us/wills it.
God allows us to succumb to that temptation/God wills it.
God allows us to commit that sin/He wills it.

See, I think we're disagreeing on semantics.
ALL things happen because God decrees it- the good and the bad, he allows it.

[Ethos]

I am thinking (hoping really, for your sake Thiest), that our definition of "will" is what differs from our opinions..

Yes you are correct in that God allows Satan to roam the earth, therefore ALLOWING him the ability to lead us to temptation, among other things... Just as I said in my post, otherwise Satan would not exist now. God would have erased him from all existence long ago.

But in allowing his existence is he willing us to follow him ?? I dont think so... Whenever I pray to God, I say, if it is in your will..

Would God come to me and "will" me to murder my neighbor?? Not likely. In fact it is written as one of the most important of all his commandment, to love thy neighbor.

So, I have come to the conclusion that our definitions of will are where our opinion differs...

So.. With that I rest my case. Have a good Sunday Evening, and God Bless You.

[Ethos]

He would much rather us repent, than sin. So therefore, it isn't God that wills the rapist to rape, it is Satan..

Sinners that haven't repented are under Satan as we speak, especially rapists and murderers. They are PURE EVIL!! AND They DO NOT belong in heaven, they belong in hell, and that is exactly where they are headed as we speak.. That is why it exists, as a trash can for the evil, the trash of our humanity and Satan is like a custodian..

[Ethos]

He allows it, because without evil there could be no good. It's the Yin and the Yang, the balance of the Universe, which is such a complex thing I don't even want to get into it.
But That and that alone is the reason why Satan still exists, to be the bearer of the will for evil, instead of wiping him out after his failed attempt to overthrow him, God gave to him hell and the freedom to roam the earth to test us, and try to lead us into tempation.

[Ethos]

So what are we arguing about??

[theist]

Tric,

true, God asks all men to repent.

He wills all men to repent. = "revelatory"
he wills them to sin, in that he gives them the life to do such. = "secret"

I'm not saying he makes them sin, just that he allows them to sin- even by giving them life and ability to do such. God grants us the day so that we may act within out ability. I believe that's the full meaning of the verses I posted. ALL things happen because God wills them, not that he wants you to to do a particular sin, but because ultimately he uses you to proclaim his glory. So, God wills the tornadoes, floods, and earthquakes. They naturally occur and he allows them to happen.

in HIS grip,

rustyb

[theist]

Tric,

I don't know...

[Ethos]

The World and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.
John 2:17

Touche'

[theist]

Tric,

amen, the revelatory Will of God!
But, God also wills that we follow his will ;)
two wills, His decrees for us to hold to and his giving the ability to do so.

in HIS grip,

rustyb

[Minnesota]

Did God Create Evil?
(post#2 )

At a certain daycare, there was a toddler attendant with a reputation for being tough on Christian kids. At the first class every semester, she asked if anyone was a Christian and proceeded to degrade and mock their of faith.

One semester, she asked the question and a young girl raised her hand when asked if anyone was a Christian.

The attendant asked, "Did God make everything, young
girl?" "Yes she did, sir," the young girl replied.

The attendant responded, "If God made everything, then God made evil, and IF we can only create from within ourselves, THEN God is evil."

The young girl didn't have a response and the attendant was happy to have once again proved the non-Christian faith to be a myth.

Then another toddler raised his hand and asked, "May I ask you something, oh Superior One?" "Yes you may," responded the attendant.

The young boy stood up and said, "Superior One, is there such thing as hot?"

"Of course there is, what kind of a question is that?
Haven't you ever been hot?"

The young boy replied, "Actually, S.O., hot does not exist. What we consider to be hot is really only cold molecules bumping into each other. Heat is when molecules are in motion, but hot does not really exist. We have only created that term to describe how we feel when cold is not there."

The young boy continued, "S.O., is there such thing as light?"

Once again, the S.O. responded, "Of course there
is."

And once again, the toddler replied, "Actually, S.O., lightness does not exist. Lightness is really only the impingement of photons on a receptor. Lightness is only a term man developed to describe what happens when there is no dark present."

Finally, the young boy asked, "O.S., is there such thing as good?"

The attendant responded, "Of course. We have charities, love, and kindness everywhere in the world, those things are good."

The student replied, "Actually, sir, good does not exist. Good is simply the absence of God. Remember, we already established that God made evil, and evil, therefore is an essence of God. Good is a term man developed to describe the absence of God. God did not create good, God created evil. It isn't like hate, or cruelty, which exist as virtues like cold and darkness. Good is simply the state where God is not present, like hot without cold or light without darkness."

The attendant had nothing to say.


While I started out to parody this little exercise in "reasoning" by simply using opposite terms and concepts, I quickly found that its lack of internal logic prevented the attempt. Therefore, because I have followed the outline by Cherith as closely as I could, my parody suffers the same logical defects as does Cherith's. GIGO :shrug:

[theist]

to avoid a word game!

my premise is:
God foreknew Adam would fall, thus, God's foreknowldge remiains infallible and immutable- alas, because of this foreknowledge, Adam could do nothing BUT fall. God, I believe, knew Adam would willing fall, so in effect, Adam fell. Due to the fact that God's will is immutable and non-contingent, it is HIS will alone that supercedes all. Therefore, apparent of the fact that Adam could not do anything contradictory to God's foreknowledge, Adam did not have a "Free-will", in that he could act opposite of the foresight of God.


in HIS grip,

rustyb

[seer]

also, you say I say "God is the author of sin", which I have said on many occasions is NOT the case.

But that is a lie Theist. If God created Adam to sin, then God is the author of sin. Sin was first born in the mind of God - not Adam.

You keep throwing questions at me,yet you have avoided,time and time again, one specific question. That is not honest debate Theist - period.

One more time: "If a man created,or programmed a computer to do A, who is the authour of A?"

[theist]

Seer,

let me ask you,
Did God know Adam would sin?
Did God created adam, knowing he would sin?
Could Adam go against the foreknowledge of God?

(this question was asked earlier in the thread, perphaps my first response, it remains unanswered).

I think YOU will answer your OWN question.

I maintain my premise:
God foreknew Adam would fall, thus, God's foreknowldge remiains infallible and immutable- alas, because of this foreknowledge, Adam could do nothing BUT fall. God, I believe, knew Adam would willing fall, so in effect, Adam fell. Due to the fact that God's will is immutable and non-contingent, it is HIS will alone that supercedes all. Therefore, apparent of the fact that Adam could not do anything contradictory to God's foreknowledge, Adam did not have a "Free-will", in that he could act opposite of the foresight of God.

in HIS grip,

rusytb

[Theolog]

Today @ 11:10 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=88202#post88202)
theist:

I maintain my premise:
God foreknew Adam would fall, thus, God's foreknowldge remiains infallible and immutable- alas, because of this foreknowledge, Adam could do nothing BUT fall. God, I believe, knew Adam would willing fall, so in effect, Adam fell. Due to the fact that God's will is immutable and non-contingent, it is HIS will alone that supercedes all. Therefore, apparent of the fact that Adam could not do anything contradictory to God's foreknowledge, Adam did not have a "Free-will", in that he could act opposite of the foresight of God.

in HIS grip,

rusytb

A Great premise indeed and sound reasoning Rusty. I agree.

I would ask you to think about; they “would not” rather than then they “could not”.


I believe that man can choose. Mankind is doomed because they “will not” turn and be saved, not “could not”.

Only in the sense that man will not turn to God can it be considered that he cannot, for what man goes against his own will?

I know my opinion of God probably will not be too welcome around here but many need to hear it.

God’s nature is such that at the event of him cognizing our creation He instantly knew every single object, action and reaction that ever would exist or take place. From the atomic level to the galactic level and having known them, decreed them to be.

And I agree that once God decrees that some will be changed and will to choose God, it will happen. Those that are doomed to perdition will never choose God. What God has decreed will happen is most certainly going to happen. The things that he decreed not to happen simply cannot happen. Only in that sense does man not have the ability to choose God.

This high view of God brings me the most comfort of any other theology and gives me nothing but faith and trust that life is under His control. It produces confidence, creativity and peace of the soul.

The open view IMHO only succeeds in bringing God’s nature one-step closer to mans. Instead of revealing Gods nature to man it turns into revealing mans nature to God. Some revelation. perhaps that is what blap means.

Ever feel like you were part of a big endless movie? When you stop fighting that feeling life changes.

[apologetics]

Theist:

You appear to be still at it! Amazing stamina....

In a previous post to Trip., you posted this:

Lam. 3:37 Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? (NIV)
Lam. 3:38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?

Meaning, all things happen because God decrees it. So, satan tempting takes place because God decrees it.

I am not saying God makes it happen, I'm saying he allows it to happen. And yes, they do it because of their natural fallen state

Now, in one sentence you say that God "decrees" it, but then you follow it up with "I'm not saying God makes it happen." It is either one way or the other! You seem to riding the logical fence.

Your last post summarizes your position:

I maintain my premise:
God foreknew Adam would fall, thus, God's foreknowldge remiains infallible and immutable- alas, because of this foreknowledge, Adam could do nothing BUT fall. God, I believe, knew Adam would willing fall, so in effect, Adam fell. Due to the fact that God's will is immutable and non-contingent, it is HIS will alone that supercedes all. Therefore, apparent of the fact that Adam could not do anything contradictory to God's foreknowledge, Adam did not have a "Free-will", in that he could act opposite of the foresight of God.

By your beliefs, Adam could NOT have NOT sinned. He was "predestined" to sin. You obviously do not believe in free will. If Adam was forced to sin, the rest of the story is set up as well. We are all forced into the actions we take. The believer will be "rewarded" for choosing something he had no way to NOT chose and the unbeliever will be punished eternally for something he had NO way of avoiding. Love is really meaningless, because it is all forced upon those who accept it.

You have summarized the EXACT reason that many atheists are atheists! I have talked to so many people who simply refuse to believe because they summarize the argument exactly as you have.

I also believe in the complete immutable foreknowledge of God. I think He foreknew the end. He knew that Adam would sin, but Adam effected this choice through a completely free will. I don't see how this belief contradicts God's freewill.

[mickiel]

In fact i am starting to think that the fruit able to make one wise, in the garden of Eden, was in fact free will, but it was hanging on the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I am very close to concluding that free will is only something God himself has. The fruit on the tree was alluring to the first couple, and still is to mankind now, everyone wants this precious free will. The illousion of free will has perverted mankind, espically christians. Part of free will must be the ability to determine right from wrong, satan said that if they ate of the fruit, they would be like God--"knowing good and evil". God wanted mankind to be like him, therefore it must be exposed to evil, not just the knowledge of it.

Jesus seems to avoid free will himself, its as if he does not want it or desire it. I think that speaks something very important in example. Jesus said he came not to seek his own will, or to do his own will, but Gods will. He said again and every time he was faced with a choice of his will or Gods, he consistantly choose Gods will over his own. Jesus did not desire to have free will, he didnot have nor ever expressed even the smallest desire to obtain it from the Father. Nevertheless not my will, but thine be done, is in direct oppisition to free will. Men simply do not see this. People teach free will to be a direct part of the plan of salvation, thinking God has chosen a survival of the fittest program concerning mankind, choosing only those who "freely choose him", thus rendering salvation into the choice of a man, instead of the death of Christ. Under this senerio, if the person does not choose God, it renders Christ death meaningless, something really impossible. It is a perversion of the gospel to give the choice of a man more meaning than the ressurection of Christ.

[Bill the Cat]

:lol: :rofl: :lol: