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FarEastBird
10-05-2014, 07:07 AM
What the gospel truly says of salvation is that it is completely the work of God.

1. The demonstration of the death of Christ for our sin includes people of the old testament who have never heard of the gospel, or of the truth. Thus, knowledge of the gospel is not by itself the guide to determine who are saved. The gospel simply informs us who is saved and is not saved; even to know the gospel is God's work.

2. Unforgivable sin is a sin that is directly against God's work. Peter's objection of Christ's prophesied suffering will account as an unforgivable sin. See also the real reason why Ananias and Saphira were condemned of unforgivable sin; regardless how small their sin is compared to others. Note also the sin of David in numbering Israel. Numbering Israel seem not a sin because numbering Israel is actually a way to manage Israel. The lesson numbering Israel is a sin is because God implies in his promise that it is God who will sustain the kingdom, not David. And also we see Paul, who himself had killed Christians, yet Christ called him to be his minister to the Gentiles; not by works, nor by man's will, was Paul called to salvation.

3. The gospel plainly tells us that all things works good "only" for the elect (Romans 8:28-30) . It does not say that the works of God will help the believers, rather, those who are elect are determined and were predestinated to be so.

4. The 7 holy days of Israel is a shadow of the God's work of salvation. We aim to partake in the fulfillment of the 3 remaining holy days, yet it is beyond any man's ability and will, to know and thus partake in God's work.

Cow Poke
10-05-2014, 07:36 AM
You claim to know what "the gospel" "truly says," but you don't quote from "the Gospels" at all.... you know... that "repent" thing, among others? :glare:

Jedidiah
10-05-2014, 10:18 AM
The Bird's gospel seems to forget about the revealed mystery of all TOGETHER under Christ.

FarEastBird
10-05-2014, 01:36 PM
You claim to know what "the gospel" "truly says," but you don't quote from "the Gospels" at all.... you know... that "repent" thing, among others? :glare:
Repentance is considered "work." It comes from our own willing. Look at Paul, was he repentant when he was called? NO.

Yet one, who is called, will be changed into the image of God through God's own works. Such as what happened to Paul.



Paul said, "But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed." So, do not mistake the law of works given by the apostles to be laws of faith.

The truth is, the salvation through faith was already mentioned in the Old Testament(Heb 4:2). Note how Paul uses the OT to show that those who are under the law is cursed (Gal 3:10, Deut 27:26). Christ himself taught the very principle of faith from the OT (Matt 19:4-6). In fact, the very word of faith is contained in the law(Rom 9:30-33); note also what God said unto the OT fathers in Deut 30:11-14, and then explained by Paul is Rom 10:6-8.

The job of a true preacher is to differentiate what is "of works" and what is "of faith," which are both present in the Old and New Testaments. One cannot discern the difference simply because they do not know the "MYSTERY" of the gospel, or the mystery of salvation.

Cow Poke
10-05-2014, 02:38 PM
Repentance is considered "work." It comes from our own willing. Look at Paul, was he repentant when he was called? NO.

For cryin out loud, he STOPPED TRYING TO KILL CHRISTIANS and DESTROY CHRISTIANITY!!!!


The job of a true preacher is to differentiate what is "of works" and what is "of faith," which are both present in the Old and New Testaments.

Yeah, James has a few things to say about that.


One cannot discern the difference simply because they do not know the "MYSTERY" of the gospel, or the mystery of salvation.

Or the FARTHINESS of the BIRD. :lolo:

FarEastBird
10-05-2014, 03:13 PM
For cryin out loud, he STOPPED TRYING TO KILL CHRISTIANS and DESTROY CHRISTIANITY!!!!

I say the same thing to whosoever preach a different gospel. And it is hard to convince people who abandoned reason, altogether.




Yeah, James has a few things to say about that.

Sure, if you can justify yourself with faith and works, go ahead. As I said, do not confuse the law of works given by the apostles as a law of faith. Mixing them together is polygamy.

Just remember what Paul said, "BEFORE faith comes, we are given the law."





Or the FARTHINESS of the BIRD. :lolo:

Watch out how you behave....

FarEastBird
10-05-2014, 04:37 PM
The Bird's gospel seems to forget about the revealed mystery of all TOGETHER under Christ.

If you are talking about that we are saved according to God's purpose in Christ. That is sure is the gospel is about. The gospel is the truth of the "mystery" of our salvation through God's works in Christ by grace, through faith.

What is your assurance/proof that you are God's workmanship in Christ?

Christianbookworm
10-05-2014, 04:49 PM
If you are talking about that we are saved according to God's purpose in Christ. That is sure is the gospel is about. The gospel is the truth of the "mystery" of our salvation through God's works in Christ by grace, through faith.

What is your assurance/proof that you are God's workmanship in Christ?
What's your proof? How do you know you're in the elect, know-it-all? How do you know the Holy Spirit is what is communicating with you You must study the scriptures in the context of the place and time when they were written. But that's not needed for salvation.

Cow Poke
10-05-2014, 05:23 PM
I say the same thing to whosoever preach a different gospel.

So, go stand in front of the mirror, and start saying, because YOU, FEB, are preaching a different gospel! :tongue:

Cow Poke
10-05-2014, 05:24 PM
Watch out how you behave....

Or WHAT?!?!?! :tongue:

Christianbookworm
10-05-2014, 05:32 PM
Or WHAT?!?!?! :tongue:

FEB gets his feelings hurt? The voices tell him to do something mean to us?

Jedidiah
10-05-2014, 05:55 PM
If you are talking about that we are saved according to God's purpose in Christ. That is sure is the gospel is about. The gospel is the truth of the "mystery" of our salvation through God's works in Christ by grace, through faith.No. I refer to the fact that there is no difference in Christ between Jew and Gentile.

Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility

Romans 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.

FarEastBird
10-05-2014, 06:15 PM
What's your proof? How do you know you're in the elect, know-it-all? How do you know the Holy Spirit is what is communicating with you You must study the scriptures in the context of the place and time when they were written. But that's not needed for salvation.

The core of the problem on this is that you would not know either, even if I tell you the truth. I appeal that men should judge fairly yet people hang unto beliefs/doctrines that are unclear as guide/rule to salvation.

The truth of the matter is that the secrets of God are hidden, and this is for the purpose that those who can decode those secrets will be the rulers of the heavens (Prov 25:2).

Now, there is, of course, a problem for the hearers to determine those who truly understand the secrets of God because these hearers are ignorant, and are subject to be taught. And some are simply called not to have the full comprehension of the mystery of God. And God's remedy to this is that those in authority will come according to the prophecies, or that these authorities are prophets themselves. Thus, Christ's testimony as being true is supported by the fulfillment of prophecies about him, and of the fulfillment of the prophecies he foretold/revealed.

There was blindness of the Jews, and the apostasy of the believers, and the famine of the word of God, in the prophecies. If you do not know about those things, then you would not know anything about the truth of the gospel.

Knowledge of truth should come with understanding the prophesies. The knowledge of the mystery of God is beyond human knowledge and understanding, that is why God's demonstration is needed. Thus, the gospel itself is pointing unto the works of God in Christ, and throughout Israel's history.

Christianbookworm
10-05-2014, 06:25 PM
The core of the problem on this is that you would not know either, even if I tell you the truth. I appeal that men should judge fairly yet people hang unto beliefs/doctrines that are unclear as guide/rule to salvation.

The truth of the matter is that the secrets of God are hidden, and this is for the purpose that those who can decode those secrets will be the rulers of the heavens (Prov 25:2).

Now, there is, of course, a problem for the hearers to determine those who truly understand the secrets of God because these hearers are ignorant, and are subject to be taught. And some are simply called not to have the full comprehension of the mystery of God. And God's remedy to this is that those in authority will come according to the prophecies, or that these authorities are prophets themselves. Thus, Christ's testimony as being true is supported by the fulfillment of prophecies about him, and of the fulfillment of the prophecies he foretold/revealed.

There was blindness of the Jews, and the apostasy of the believers, and the famine of the word of God, in the prophecies. If you do not know about those things, then you would not know anything about the truth of the gospel.

Knowledge of truth should come with understanding the prophesies. The knowledge of the mystery of God is beyond human knowledge and understanding, that is why God's demonstration is needed. Thus, the gospel itself is pointing unto the works of God in Christ, and throughout Israel's history.

Who made you king? Proverbs is talking about discovering all the cool stuff God made(e.g. science) not the gospel. That wasn't there yet and the gospel isn't a secret. We sinned, seperating ourselves from God. God the Son became a human and died for our and rose again so that all who believe can be with Him for eternity. If it was supposed to be a secret, it needs a few more glasses and domino masks.

Bill the Cat
10-05-2014, 06:32 PM
...and the apostasy of the believers

What verse do you base this claim on?

FarEastBird
10-05-2014, 07:01 PM
So, go stand in front of the mirror, and start saying, because YOU, FEB, are preaching a different gospel! :tongue:

I searched myself, not just by reading, but asked God of signs. You should ask God of signs for yourself.

Christianbookworm
10-05-2014, 07:06 PM
I searched myself, not just by reading, but asked God of signs. You should ask God of signs for yourself.

The signs said that you are saying horse manure. It's like the reverse of the ad populum fallacy.

FarEastBird
10-05-2014, 07:09 PM
No. I refer to the fact that there is no difference in Christ between Jew and Gentile.

Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility

Romans 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.

Those are parts of knowing the mystery of salvation; part of the conclusion that our salvation is God's work.

FarEastBird
10-05-2014, 07:12 PM
The signs said that you are saying horse manure. It's like the reverse of the ad populum fallacy.
You can surely speak out of your own understanding. But I would rather advise you to search the prophesies.

Christianbookworm
10-05-2014, 07:17 PM
Those are parts of knowing the mystery of salvation; part of the conclusion that our salvation is God's work.

That's why we don't have to know some secret code in the prophecies to be saved. Jesus did all the work for salvation. We just accept that and as a result of being saved, we do good works. Not to earn salvation, but out of gratitude for what Christ did for us.

Christianbookworm
10-05-2014, 07:18 PM
You can surely speak out of your own understanding. But I would rather advise you to search the prophesies.

Why? You've got the super decoder ring.

FarEastBird
10-05-2014, 07:51 PM
What verse do you base this claim on?

Not merely verses but prophecies. Mainly of the prophesies regarding the blindness of the Jews, for which salvation will come to the Gentiles, and to provoke the Jews to jealousy. It includes the limited reign of the apostles and disciples unto a thousand years(though not literally a thousand) Rev 20:6. It includes the prophesied overcoming of the beast over the saints(Dan 7:21, Rev 13:7, 11:7)). And, also of Amos 8:11-13. Note also of Paul's warning regarding the decay of the Church; warning them with "tears" (Acts 20:29-31).

Christ built the Church among the apostles who are Jews, and that the Jews and Gentiles that believed were under Peter's foundation (Matt 16:18, Act 15:7). The authority of priesthood was still among the Jews, that is why the apostles were preaching unto the Jews "first" (Acts 14:46, 28:20). Seeing the Church is built among the Jews, it was therefore subject unto apostasy together with the apostles and disciples. Thus, Peter spoke of "putting off" his tabernacle (2Pet 2:13). And because of the apostasy of the Church, that the disciples spoke of Gentile elect of God that will believe in the future (Acts 15:14-18, 28:29). Christ himself spoke of calling other believers that were not part of the fold of the apostles and disciples (John 10:16).



So, understand that I did not take it from just a verse.

FarEastBird
10-05-2014, 07:57 PM
That's why we don't have to know some secret code in the prophecies to be saved. Jesus did all the work for salvation. We just accept that and as a result of being saved, we do good works. Not to earn salvation, but out of gratitude for what Christ did for us.

If you are against things that are prophesied, then you are God's enemies.

Also, even some cults have accepted "your" gospel, were they saved?

Christianbookworm
10-05-2014, 07:58 PM
Not merely verses but prophecies. Mainly of the prophesies regarding the blindness of the Jews, for which salvation will come to the Gentiles, and to provoke the Jews to jealousy. It includes the limited reign of the apostles and disciples unto a thousand years(though not literally a thousand) Rev 20:6. It includes the prophesied overcoming of the beast over the saints(Dan 7:21, Rev 13:7, 11:7)). And, also of Amos 8:11-13. Note also of Paul's warning regarding the decay of the Church; warning them with "tears" (Acts 20:29-31).

Christ built the Church among the apostles who are Jews, and that the Jews and Gentiles that believed were under Peter's foundation (Matt 16:18, Act 15:7). The authority of priesthood was still among the Jews, that is why the apostles were preaching unto the Jews "first" (Acts 14:46, 28:20). Seeing the Church is built among the Jews, it was therefore subject unto apostasy together with the apostles and disciples. Thus, Peter spoke of "putting off" his tabernacle (2Pet 2:13). And because of the apostasy of the Church, that the disciples spoke of Gentile elect of God that will believe in the future (Acts 15:14-18, 28:29). Christ himself spoke of calling other believers that were not part of the fold of the apostles and disciples (John 10:16).



So, understand that I did not took it from just a verse.
Where'd you get the idea that the Church would apostasize? Israel =/= Church

Christianbookworm
10-05-2014, 08:02 PM
If you are against things that are prophesied, then you are God's enemies.

Also, even some cults have accepted "your" gospel, were they saved?

They follow a different Christ. Or tack on extra stuff. Or claim that their group is the only saved group. Sounds familiar. Might want to get a mirror. I'm just against your interpretation that a minor issue is a major eternity threatening issue.

FarEastBird
10-05-2014, 08:13 PM
Why? You've got the super decoder ring.

I got the Spirit.

John 16:13
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


See what is stated above as a sign of having the Spirit.......

FarEastBird
10-05-2014, 08:18 PM
They follow a different Christ. Or tack on extra stuff. Or claim that their group is the only saved group. Sounds familiar. Might want to get a mirror. I'm just against your interpretation that a minor issue is a major eternity threatening issue.

So, "your' gospel did not work, and needed some revisions?

FarEastBird
10-05-2014, 08:37 PM
Where'd you get the idea that the Church would apostasize? Israel =/= Church

When Christ came, salvation still belongs to the Jews (John 4:22). Note also what Jesus said to the Canaanite woman (Matt 15:26-27). The apostles cannot pass authority of priesthood unto the Gentiles when the Jews do not reject the gospel; this is the reason why the apostles preached to the Jews first. It was needed for the Jews to fall so that salvation would come to the Gentiles. This is a mystery that is a part of the gospel. Without understanding this mystery, you will not be able to comprehend in fullness the mystery of the gospel.

Cow Poke
10-05-2014, 09:07 PM
I searched myself, not just by reading, but asked God of signs. You should ask God of signs for yourself.

A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

That's in the Bible. :smile: (hint: in some versions, it's in red letters! :egad:)

Cow Poke
10-05-2014, 09:09 PM
I got the Spirit.

Unfortunately, I don't think the Spirit has you. :shrug:

Jedidiah
10-05-2014, 09:26 PM
So, "your' gospel did not work, and needed some revisions?

Our gospel does not work, but reveals the work of Jesus Christ. It needs no revision, but it does have to be believed (trusted).

Bill the Cat
10-06-2014, 07:01 AM
Not merely verses but prophecies. Mainly of the prophesies regarding the blindness of the Jews, for which salvation will come to the Gentiles, and to provoke the Jews to jealousy.

That was fulfilled with Christ's ministry. Their ultimate apostasy was them rejecting their savior.


It includes the limited reign of the apostles and disciples unto a thousand years(though not literally a thousand) Rev 20:6.

Sorry, no. The "thousand years" is preceded by the resurrection of the just.


It includes the prophesied overcoming of the beast over the saints(Dan 7:21, Rev 13:7, 11:7)). And, also of Amos 8:11-13. Note also of Paul's warning regarding the decay of the Church; warning them with "tears" (Acts 20:29-31).

These are not verses on apostasy. Especially Dan 7:21 which is nothing more than a greeting to Nebuchadnezzar.


Christ built the Church among the apostles who are Jews, and that the Jews and Gentiles that believed were under Peter's foundation (Matt 16:18, Act 15:7).

No. They were under the foundation of the confession of faith, just like Peter made.


The authority of priesthood was still among the Jews,

Until the veil was rent and the Old system was superseded by the new and everlasting Priesthood of Christ after the order of Melchizedek. See the Book of Hebrews for why Jesus qualified to be their eternal Priest and King.


that is why the apostles were preaching unto the Jews "first" (Acts 14:46, 28:20).

It was because of the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.


Seeing the Church is built among the Jews, it was therefore subject unto apostasy together with the apostles and disciples.

Utterly false. Apostasy is following after "the man of sin", and the early Jewish believers did no such thing. Their worst offense was to try to make an amalgam of the 2 covenants. Nowhere were they condemned for apostasy for that.


Thus, Peter spoke of "putting off" his tabernacle (2Pet 2:13).

2 Peter 2:13 suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you.

No he didn't. Paul said in Colossians 2:11:

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

But that's the closest thing to what you are claiming.


And because of the apostasy of the Church,

There was no apostasy of the Church. Paul links the apostasia with the revealing of the Man of Sin

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;



that the disciples spoke of Gentile elect of God that will believe in the future (Acts 15:14-18, 28:29).

When the Gentiles would be GRAFTED IN to the existing vine along with the NATURAL branches. The natural branches would still be connected as long as they to believed, which they did.


Christ himself spoke of calling other believers that were not part of the fold of the apostles and disciples (John 10:16).

That had absolutely nothing to do with a supposed "Jewish church apostasy".




So, understand that I did not take it from just a verse.

And those that you claimed do not speak of what you claim.

FarEastBird
10-06-2014, 01:13 PM
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

That's in the Bible. :smile: (hint: in some versions, it's in red letters! :egad:)

What "generation"?

Cow Poke
10-06-2014, 02:16 PM
What "generation"?

Yours. :smug: Ya gonna threaten me again? :tongue:

FarEastBird
10-06-2014, 05:29 PM
Our gospel does not work, but reveals the work of Jesus Christ. It needs no revision, but it does have to be believed (trusted).
Why would anyone believe your gospel that does not work?

If I will believe it will not work, then it will work?

Cow Poke
10-06-2014, 05:33 PM
Welcome to Unorthodox Theology, FEB... you can be as weird as you like. :thumb:

Jedidiah
10-06-2014, 05:50 PM
Why would anyone believe your gospel that does not work?

If I will believe it will not work, then it will work?

I am sorry, you are not able to read English???

Cow Poke
10-06-2014, 06:02 PM
I am sorry, you are not able to read English???

I honestly think FEB has a problem with English, but when I asked him that question very politely, I don't think he understood. :shrug:

FarEastBird
10-06-2014, 06:06 PM
That was fulfilled with Christ's ministry. Their ultimate apostasy was them rejecting their savior.

You have to note that the prophecy of blindness was "of Israel", not "SOME of Israel"

Try to discern what Paul was saying in Romans 11:1-5.

In the fall would only happen to some, then it would not make sense why would salvation come to the Gentiles. God's promise was that salvation would only belong to the Jews; read what Christ said in John 4:22. If the Jews would not fall, God will become unjust for saving the Gentiles. The fall of the Jews is the reason why God's election is by grace.

Obviously, you are not aware of the truth that is being demonstrated in the gospel. One aim of the gospel is to reveal the righteousness of God; through His works(Rom 1:17, 20).

FarEastBird
10-06-2014, 06:31 PM
I am sorry, you are not able to read English???

Maybe try to explain to me this your words:

"Our gospel does not work, but reveals the work of Jesus Christ.



1). Do you mean that the gospel, which you say reveals the work of Jesus Christ, does not work?

or,

2). The gospel, which is the work of Jesus Christ, does not work, unless you believe it?


I preferred to take 2), but when I asked you about the cults who believed your gospel, their belief of your gospel failed, or perhaps your requirement was incomplete and not effective.

Or, if you want to explain to me how your gospel works in other ways/terms, please do so.

FarEastBird
10-06-2014, 07:05 PM
Yours. :smug: Ya gonna threaten me again? :tongue:
No need. Except for those who are being unreasonable, I am confident you can't deceive with your answer.

Cow Poke
10-06-2014, 07:12 PM
No need. Except for those who are being unreasonable, I am confident you can't deceive with your answer.

I'm confident you're about a dozen puppies short of a pet shop. :wink:

Christianbookworm
10-06-2014, 07:13 PM
I honestly think FEB has a problem with English, but when I asked him that question very politely, I don't think he understood. :shrug:

Google translate? Because that would explain a lot...

Cow Poke
10-06-2014, 07:16 PM
Google translate? Because that would explain a lot...

Interesting!

Years ago, our Mexican Missionary -- a young lady -- came to visit, and at THAT time, my Spanish wasn't so good and her English wasn't so good, so we used my laptop computer with a translation program -- long before Google Translate -- and each typed, then translated... for the MOST part it worked pretty well, until she started telling me that her Potato was very ill ---- we figured out the program was translating "papa" as "potato" instead of "father". :smile:

But the REAL hilarity came when she was trying to express the joy in her heart, and the program translated it "happy in my groin". :blush:

We worked it out, but it made for some very interesting conversations.

Bill the Cat
10-07-2014, 04:24 AM
You have to note that the prophecy of blindness was "of Israel", not "SOME of Israel"

And YOU have to note what Paul says about God ALWAYS keeping a remnant of Israel to Himself. You err and do not know the scriptures. See Romans 9

27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.



Try to discern what Paul was saying in Romans 11:1-5.


I know what Paul is saying. And I know the context. Your salad bar approach can't account for the remnant of Romans 9


In the fall would only happen to some, then it would not make sense why would salvation come to the Gentiles.

Rubbish! It was God's plan all along to include the Gentiles in the house of faith. The promise of redemption was made to the offspring of Adam and Eve.


God's promise was that salvation would only belong to the Jews; read what Christ said in John 4:22.

Nope. He said that it would come FROM the Jews, meaning Jesus was a Jew. And as the inheritor of the promise of the firstborn due to Esau's selling it, the Jews would receive first rights to salvation before the Gentiles would be allowed.

Romans 1:16

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.



If the Jews would not fall, God will become unjust for saving the Gentiles. The fall of the Jews is the reason why God's election is by grace.

No. It has always been by grace that we are saved through faith. See Hebrews 11.



Obviously, you are not aware of the truth that is being demonstrated in the gospel.

I am fully aware. It's you who is out in left field.


One aim of the gospel is to reveal the righteousness of God; through His works(Rom 1:17, 20).

And that has nothing to do with the entire Jewish race apostatizing.

FarEastBird
10-07-2014, 07:41 AM
And YOU have to note what Paul says about God ALWAYS keeping a remnant of Israel to Himself. You err and do not know the scriptures. See Romans 9

The "remnant" was the main subject of Rom 11:11-5. The remnant were saved while they are in the state of "unbelief." This implies that salvation has nothing to do with the will of man. But the gospel that the lost christians promote is that "one has to believe to be saved"; which is relying in one's will.

In reality, what the apostles had come to understand and believed from Christ were never believed by OT people, yet God saved some of these OT People. So the doctrine that "one has to believe to be save" is a sign of misunderstanding the truth of the Gospel. The salvation of God is totally God's work, and it is God who makes the being of every elect to become holy. This explains why, regardless the OT people were ignorant of the Truth that Christ revealed, but because of God's purpose in Christ, they are elect. Whatever the lacking knowledge that the OT people lack will also be given to them, because it is God himself who will make them to know Him.

Christianbookworm
10-07-2014, 08:04 AM
The "remnant" was the main subject of Rom 11:11-5. The remnant were saved while they are in the state of "unbelief." This implies that salvation has nothing to do with the will of man. But the gospel that the lost christians promote is that "one has to believe to be saved"; which is relying in one's will.

In reality, what the apostles had come to understand and believed from Christ were never believed by OT people, yet God saved some of these OT People. So the doctrine that "one has to believe to be save" is a sign of misunderstanding the truth of the Gospel. The salvation of God is totally God's work, and it is God who makes the being of every elect to become holy. This explains why, regardless the OT people were ignorant of the Truth that Christ revealed, but because of God's purpose in Christ, they are elect. Whatever the lacking knowledge that the OT people lack will also be given to them, because it is God himself who will make them to know Him.

If human will has nothing at all to do with salvation, then why are you telling us this stuff? If we can't do anything at all, then why bother?

Bill the Cat
10-07-2014, 08:14 AM
The "remnant" was the main subject of Rom 11:11-5. The remnant were saved while they are in the state of "unbelief."

No!! The remnant are saved because of their belief.

Rom 11
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.



This implies that salvation has nothing to do with the will of man.

No it doesn't. Those who were "remnant" in Elijah's time were those who had not bowed to Ba'al by their will.


But the gospel that the lost christians promote is that "one has to believe to be saved"; which is relying in one's will.


Romans 10:9

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It's in the recipe, birdie.


In reality, what the apostles had come to understand and believed from Christ were never believed by OT people,

Load of crap alert!!

Hebrews 11
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.




yet God saved some of these OT People. So the doctrine that "one has to believe to be save" is a sign of misunderstanding the truth of the Gospel.

Then Hebrews 11 must not exist in your bible.


The salvation of God is totally God's work, and it is God who makes the being of every elect to become holy. This explains why, regardless the OT people were ignorant of the Truth that Christ revealed, but because of God's purpose in Christ, they are elect. Whatever the lacking knowledge that the OT people lack will also be given to them, because it is God himself who will make them to know Him.

Hebrews 11
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

The only knowledge they lacked was the knowledge of Jesus Christ dying as a sacrifice for their sins. They lived and died by faith in God, and when Christ rose, their faith was rewarded with eternal life with Him

Cow Poke
10-07-2014, 11:22 AM
If human will has nothing at all to do with salvation, then why are you telling us this stuff? If we can't do anything at all, then why bother?

Cuz he's WAY more speerchul than you. :tongue:

Christianbookworm
10-07-2014, 11:34 AM
Cuz he's WAY more speerchul than you. :tongue:

:huh: Special? Spiritual? In any case the instructions for joining the new covenant are crystal clear.

Cow Poke
10-07-2014, 12:16 PM
:huh: Special? Spiritual?

Yes!


In any case the instructions for joining the new covenant are crystal clear.

Well, not to SOME folks... :whistle:

FarEastBird
10-07-2014, 05:36 PM
If human will has nothing at all to do with salvation, then why are you telling us this stuff? If we can't do anything at all, then why bother?

Don"t you remember what John said? "A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven."

Also, Jesus said, "All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given."

Do you really believe that understanding the gospel is passed from words to words? You are mistaken, the reason you would not receive mine is because we are actually divided in wisdom. Man cannot pass wisdom to another. You can read the Scripture from cover to cover as many times as you want, but you will never ever learn from them unless God will give it to you.

As for why I do these things, it is what I am called to do. But you received authority from men, or are working on your own will.

Christianbookworm
10-07-2014, 05:46 PM
Don"t you remember what John said? "A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven."

Also, Jesus said, "All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given."

Do you really believe that understanding the gospel is passed from words to words? You are mistaken, the reason you would not receive mine is because we are actually divided in wisdom. Man cannot pass wisdom to another. You can read the Scripture from cover to cover as many times as you want, but you will never ever learn from them unless God will give it to you.

As for why I do these things, it is what I am called to do. But you received authority from men, or are working on your own will.
I have no authority. I'm just repeating what the Bible says for the most part. Snark can be Biblical. I just want to know how it makes sense for another human to tell me that the message of salvation can only come directly from God and yet seems to be telling how to get saved? Explain this quandary, oh wise prophet.

FarEastBird
10-08-2014, 06:21 PM
I have no authority. I'm just repeating what the Bible says for the most part. Snark can be Biblical.

Well, haven't you realized that the Jews have, for a long time, followed the word of God, and have never understood it; not until Christ came?

Another point is that reading the Bible is the same as hearing the word of God in parables. It is different when you really understand those parables. Don't presume that you have the ability interpret the parables on your own. Even the prophets who prophesied and gave to us the OT did not truly understand the OT themselves, though the OT guides us to faith (Luke 10:24).

Jesus himself explain to the disciples his parables, yet it was only after the Christ's resurrection when he revealed to them on how to understand the Scriptures. So, even if you may have a chance of getting correctly the parables, you may not be able to understand it's relation to the Scripture, or the gospel.



I just want to know how it makes sense for another human to tell me that the message of salvation can only come directly from God and yet seems to be telling how to get saved? Explain this quandary, oh wise prophet.

Understanding the gospel, comes with the ability to receive it. Part of the ability is to have the mental maturity. For example, a person can teach Calculus, but only those who are able can learn it.

Do you think you can teach a person how to love? No, you can't. Yet part of getting to understand God is to know what love is. It is only God who can change our hearts. (((Search yourselves)))

The law itself guides us until we come to faith. Yet many subject themselves to the law in most of their lives, but they do not really understand faith. Unless God gives the person the maturity of mind, and a changed heart, that person cannot find out the truth of God.

So, understand from these things why I said that I cannot teach anyone, though, obviously, I am persuading you to come into the knowledge of God. And what I was saying above is the reason why we ought not to understand things by the letter, the word of God is enveloped in a matured mind, and a changed heart; without which one cannot perceive and understand the word as the word of faith.

The irony of these is that if you have understood the salvation of Christ, you would not have asked me this. You know that Christ himself said that the salvation of man has nothing to do with man's will; so in turn you are questioning Christ who sent the apostles who told us to work out our salvation.

But for your learning, the way to faith is to be schooled by the law. Just because the apostles tells us to work out our salvation, does not mean that they are not leading us to faith. No, rather, as I said in one of my post in this thread, and to paraphrase it accordingly in this discussion: the law should be given to us, so that we would come to know that we cannot justify ourselves through the law. And when we come to know that we are not able to justify ourselves through the law, that then we seek the other way of salvation, which is grace through faith.

Now, one may think that I have explained already the salvation, and that when people accepted it they were saved. No, those who are elected were changed into a new creature; God had changed their hearts, and had given them maturity of mind. The reason people behave ill is because God had not changed their hearts. The reason why people believe their salvation is through faith and works, or of not having understanding between faith and works, is because God had not given them the maturity of mind.


.

Jedidiah
10-08-2014, 09:29 PM
Another point is that reading the Bible is the same as hearing the word of God in parables. It is different when you really understand those parables. Don't presume that you have the ability interpret the parables on your own. Even the prophets who prophesied and gave to us the OT did not truly understand the OT themselves, though the OT guides us to faith (Luke 10:24).

But FEB is mature enough to understand what no one else - or at least most of the rest of us - are just not spiritual enough to understand.

FarEastBird
10-09-2014, 05:40 AM
But FEB is mature enough to understand what no one else - or at least most of the rest of us - are just not spiritual enough to understand.


Knowledge of truth isn't judged by popularity.

Paul said, "But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man."

If you judge me of something you do not know, how does that make you a judge? Judge me of things you know......not by popularity.

Cow Poke
10-09-2014, 07:06 AM
Unsubscribing -- nothing of value here.

Bill the Cat
10-09-2014, 07:08 AM
Agreed. His biblically illiterate eisegesis is nauseating.

FarEastBird
10-11-2014, 05:18 AM
But FEB is mature enough to understand what no one else - or at least most of the rest of us - are just not spiritual enough to understand.

The world is again blinded of the truth; this is what the prophesies says. The first resurrection had passed(Rev 20:6). When Christ came, those who believed in his word did not die(John 11:25, 5:24).


But search what this prophesy meant:

Isa 52:15
15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

Rom 15:21
21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.


I am waiting for the above prophesy to be fulfilled. If the Spirit of God is in you, the Spirit will tell you things to come.

FarEastBird
10-29-2014, 05:44 PM
And YOU have to note what Paul says about God ALWAYS keeping a remnant of Israel to Himself. You err and do not know the scriptures. See Romans 9

27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.

Check what you said to what the prophesies say. I do not even know how you came up of the idea of '"ALWAYS" keeping a remnant.' Your reading into the verse your belief that does not fit to the prophesies, nor to the literal interpretation of the verse you quoted. Inserting your word "ALWAYS" changes the message of the verse. Read what you quoted: "THE remnant."

Christ came to gather Israel, Jesus himself said so (Matt 15:24), and it was Paul whom Christ sent to be the apostles to the Gentiles (Acts 9:15). When the apostles were preaching, it was even Paul himself who said to the Jews: "... It was NECESSARY that the word of God should FIRST have been spoken to you....." (Acts 13:46)

The reason why it was necessary that the Jews should be first to hear the gospel is because that according to God's promises to Israel, unless they fell to unbelief the kingdom would remain to them. But, according to the parable of Christ himself, the Jews will reject him and the judgment that Christ spoke against the nation was fulfilled in 70 AD when the Jerusalem was laid to ruins.

So, when Christ came to gather Israel, he knew that Israel will not be gathered, even as said in the prophecy in Isaiah 49:5. Rather, Jesus spoke of other flock, a different group, beside the disciples' flock/group, that will come in his name (John 10:16); and this was prophesied in Isaiah 56:8. It was this flock of disciples who will be saved in those times that is referred as "the remnant."



I know what Paul is saying. And I know the context. Your salad bar approach can't account for the remnant of Romans 9
You miserably misunderstood even the verse you quoted.



Rubbish! It was God's plan all along to include the Gentiles in the house of faith. The promise of redemption was made to the offspring of Adam and Eve.
Well, you have no idea how God is making a "demonstration" on the mystery of his salvation through events. So you are actually missing what message that Paul was truly trying to convey.



Nope. He said that it would come FROM the Jews, meaning Jesus was a Jew. And as the inheritor of the promise of the firstborn due to Esau's selling it, the Jews would receive first rights to salvation before the Gentiles would be allowed.

Romans 1:16

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

You are making God unjust because of your misled gospel. Such is truly disgusting in the eyes of God.

When we come to the truth of salvation, salvation was according to God's plan even before the world begun,. An elect was saved according to God's plan even before the world began (2Tim 1:9). Even though God was making promises to certain person, or people, his word was meant to be taken spiritually not literally. And so Paul, in his gospel, explains whom were the true subject of the promises: the children of faith, whether Jews or Gentiles (Rom 4:9-24, Gal 3:7).

Romans 1:16 has nothing to do with Esau, nor your personal interpretation which you are alluding.

What Romans 1:16 is saying is that the gospel will bring salvation to those who will believe it. The gospel came from Christ and revealed it to the disciples who were Jews, and then the disciples has to preach the gospel to the Jews FIRST (Acts 13:46). So, salvation through hearing the gospel came to the Jews first..........and then to the Gentiles!!!!

Again, you miserably failed to understand a single verse.



No. It has always been by grace that we are saved through faith. See Hebrews 11.

The fall of the Jews is a demonstration of the mystery of the salvation of God, it does not literally meant that there were no Gentiles that were saved before the Jews fell into blindness. It is the same way of demonstrating God's salvation through circumcision that was given to Abraham and his children. You are misunderstanding the demonstration of the mystery of God's salvation.


And that has nothing to do with the entire Jewish race apostatizing.

The Jews had to fail, else the salvation would still belong to them....or else you make God unjust for failing to do his promises to them, even to David. Not only that, you would even make it unfair for God to punish the nation as a whole.

You see, the gospel leads us to understand the "righteousness" of God (Rom 1:17). Presenting God as unjust in his salvation proves that you are misunderstanding the gospel.

pancreasman
11-05-2014, 06:39 PM
Here's my question: How do you know you're not just another nutjob? I might be one. It's certainly possible. Are YOU open to the possibility you might be wrong?

FarEastBird
11-06-2014, 06:23 PM
Here's my question: How do you know you're not just another nutjob? I might be one. It's certainly possible. Are YOU open to the possibility you might be wrong?

I prayed to God to give me signs, and I received it.

Human knowledge is limited, and such is the very reason Christians falls into believing logical fallacies. Apologetics is very strong in leading us to believe in God; but apologetics is limited in leading us to know God. The Gospel is what truly reveals God, and the misled gospel(s) that are preached by many are laughable and hardly to be accepted as reason to believe, much less to be persuaded through them, of the godhead. One can surely notice that what persuade most unbelievers to believe God is apologetics, not the gospel.

The Gospel of Grace is not hinged on apologetics. Delving in apologetics sharpen our minds, but the salvation of God through his Grace is not hinged on how smart one is, or how much knowledge one has. One can excel in the academia but end up having a faith that is ludicrous, and even logically fallacious ones. The revelation of salvation was not revealed until Christ came who revealed it, yet there are saved even before the revelation of salvation was given. There is then in the human nature that human's knowledge cannot save himself, though every elect are being led to have a renewed mind. There is a truth about the relationship of God and man for which hinged the reason we are saved through grace. (((for this reason, I am also subject to doubt)))))

But here is how God tell us to verify things, and to know whom he sent: Deut 18:21-22
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Witnessing of the truthfulness of God is through prophesies, not apologetics.

Am I talking as nuts to you? Please tell me of which thing(s) I said is/are nuts.

pancreasman
11-06-2014, 06:27 PM
I prayed to God to give me signs, and I received it.

Human knowledge is limited, and such is the very reason Christians falls into believing logical fallacies. Apologetics is very strong in leading us to believe in God; but apologetics is limited in leading us to know God. The Gospel is what truly reveals God, and the misled gospel(s) that are preached by many are laughable and hardly to be accepted as reason to believe, much less to be persuaded through them, of the godhead. One can surely notice that what persuade most unbelievers to believe God is apologetics, not the gospel.

The Gospel of Grace is not hinged on apologetics. Delving in apologetics sharpen our minds, but the salvation of God through his Grace is not hinged on how smart one is, or how much knowledge one has. One can excel in the academia but end up having a faith that is ludicrous, and even logically fallacious ones. The revelation of salvation was not revealed until Christ came who revealed it, yet there are saved even before the revelation of salvation was given. There is then in the human nature that human's knowledge cannot save himself, though every elect are being led to have a renewed mind. There is a truth about the relationship of God and man for which hinged the reason we are saved through grace. (((for this reason, I am also subject to doubt)))))

But here is how God tell us to verify things, and to know whom he sent: Deut 18:21-22
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Witnessing of the truthfulness of God is through prophesies, not apologetics.

Am I talking as nuts to you? Please tell me of which thing(s) I said is/are nuts.

Yes, you sound a little unhinged to me. Sorry, but I'm sure you'd rather I was honest. As to 'signs from God, have you considered a phenomenon called 'confirmation bias'?

Christianbookworm
11-06-2014, 06:28 PM
The emphasis on esoteric prophecies is so fringe that I haven't even heard of it before. I'm just skeptical. The Holy Spirit never told me that stuff. Just lets me know when something is wrong. And I accidentally amened your post... it deserves a negative amen.

FarEastBird
11-07-2014, 08:37 AM
Yes, you sound a little unhinged to me. Sorry, but I'm sure you'd rather I was honest. As to 'signs from God, have you considered a phenomenon called 'confirmation bias'?

I just read Wikipedia about the subject and it is not applicable to me. I was, rather, 'corrected' of my thoughts and ideas, and of my personal leanings; so it was not a 'confirmation bias'. And personal experiences had solidified that I was in error. And after a time I begun to understand and confirm that things has nothing to do with my will, nor of any of my power; and that all things will be but the works of God. And, actually, the gospel that I came to understand has no room for being biased.

Christianbookworm
11-07-2014, 08:42 AM
I just read Wikipedia about the subject and it is not applicable to me. I was, rather, 'corrected' of my thoughts and ideas, and of my personal leanings; so it was not a 'confirmation bias'. And personal experiences had solidified that I was in error. And after a time I begun to understand and confirm that things has nothing to do with my will, nor of any of my power; and that all things will be but the works of God. And, actually, the gospel that I came to understand has no room for being biased.
Wikipedia!!! And everyone is biased. I supposed you think you have a special hotline to God that none of us mere peasants have. What makes you so more important that the rest of us puny humans?

Christianbookworm
11-07-2014, 08:45 AM
Perhaps I should stop giving calcium carbonate spheres to members of Sus scrofa domesticus? :tongue:

FarEastBird
11-07-2014, 09:47 AM
The emphasis on esoteric prophecies is so fringe that I haven't even heard of it before.

God demonstrated the godhead through the things that are made (Rom 1:20). And you can notice how apostle Paul uses the history of Israel to explain doctrines. Note itself the circumcision of Abraham. And in Christ, note how the baptism is explained through Christ's death and resurrection. But this knowledge and understanding was lost in the proceeding centuries; and it thus conclude the falling away and blindness of Israel. You have not heard about this you call 'esoteric prophecies' because the church had fallen into blindness. Have you heard anyone explain baptism as likened to the death and resurrection of Christ? I would doubt you ever did. Maybe some have tried, but I'll say that no one can explain that mystery of baptism through those foolish gospels that I heard.

Christianbookworm
11-07-2014, 09:53 AM
God demonstrated the godhead through the things that are made (Rom 1:20). And you can notice how apostle Paul uses the history of Israel to explain doctrines. Note itself the circumcision of Abraham. And in Christ, note how the baptism is explained through Christ's death and resurrection. But this knowledge and understanding was lost in the proceeding centuries; and it thus conclude the falling away and blindness of Israel. You have not heard about this you call 'esoteric prophecies' because the church had fallen into blindness. Have you heard anyone explain baptism as likened to the death and resurrection of Christ? I would doubt you ever did. Maybe some have tried, but I'll say that no one can explain that mystery of baptism through those foolish gospels that I heard.

That's what all the cults claim. They all think that the TrueChristianChurchtm fell away in the first century and they were awesome enough to have the truth.

FarEastBird
11-07-2014, 10:30 AM
What makes you so more important that the rest of us puny humans?


"Salvation through Grace" has nothing to do with man's will, nor of man's worthiness. And I do not ever think of any self advantage to anyone. It actually frustrates me why would you see me as someone bragging something.

Look, if you do not understand me, then there is no reason for you to accuse me that I am thinking I am somebody else. To be honest, rather, I see you as the one who thinks you are special. You want yourself as the standard, and become judge that anything you do not understand as false. Perhaps, try to understand me first, and then point to me where you thought I am making myself more important than others.

Christianbookworm
11-07-2014, 10:34 AM
"Salvation through Grace" has nothing to do with man's will, nor of man's worthiness. And I do not ever think of any self advantage to anyone. It actually frustrates me why would you see me as someone bragging something.

Look, if you do not understand me, then there is no reason for you to accuse me that I am thinking I am somebody else. To be honest, rather, I see you as the one who thinks you are special. You want yourself as the standard, and become judge that anything you do not understand as false. Perhaps, try to understand me first, and then point to me where you thought I am making myself more important than others.

If it has nothing to do with us, then why are you even talking about it? We're just characters in a story that can only become good guys if the writer wishes apparently. So, what's the point? I can't do anything about it. Do you not realize that God has saved me?

FarEastBird
11-07-2014, 10:41 AM
That's what all the cults claim. They all think that the TrueChristianChurchtm fell away in the first century and they were awesome enough to have the truth.

Though cults claim such, it is not the very reason why they are cults. You have to look at their beliefs and practices.

Now, it is a practice of cults to teach their adherents to judge without getting to the truth, such as saying:

"That's what all the cults claim. They all think that the TrueChristianChurchtm fell away in the first century and they were awesome enough to have the truth."

Christianbookworm
11-07-2014, 11:09 AM
So, why does your belief matter to me? If your right, I can't do anything about it.

FarEastBird
11-07-2014, 11:58 AM
If it has nothing to do with us, then why are you even talking about it? We're just characters in a story that can only become good guys if the writer wishes apparently. So, what's the point? I can't do anything about it.

I, myself, have struggled the same with your objections. I love my family and friends; and I thought that if I can sacrifice myself for them I will do so. Unfortunately, I found myself unworthy in spite that I am willing to give my life. My willingness is not enough to see myself good, nor my goodness is not enough even to see myself desirable unto God. In the end, I had come to see my unworthiness due to the reality of my being as mere dust. I can easily fall into deceptions, and self pride; not to mention that I can't even sort the depths of evil and goodness. Even the good that I willed to do sometimes end into evil conclusion/scenario. I have seen the limits of knowledge and understanding, and I have seen why it is not enough. I found myself unable to save myself, so in what way I could lead others to be saved? If it is not solely of God's grace, I would not have realized my foolishness. I came to understand that we may experience the same thing, and to be taught of the same thing, but to come into the same conclusion is not within our hands. As the Bible said: A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

I wondered why people believe in logical fallacies. I came to understand that they are not evil people-- as what I thought in error-- they are simply not elect.

If one reads your objections, he can easily spot the problem that it is contradicting the salvation through grace that we both believe. I have no special knowledge why I know you are contradicting grace, and I am not puzzled why you contradict grace. Perhaps, you really need to understand the true nature of man. Books are up there to read, but the most important thing is you experience it. Even atheists have good reasons in presenting the selfishness/evilness of human beings. Don't be like others who claim to be unworthy, believing in the bible without truly understanding it; because by heart they do not accept it. Else, you would cling to the same objections that you posit against me. It is in God's grace for you to come to realize your errors, no amount of reasoning will do.

And finally, if you come to understand the truth of human nature, then will you come to understand why prophecies serves as proof of Godhead.

Christianbookworm
11-07-2014, 12:01 PM
I, myself, have struggled the same with your objections. I love my family and friends; and I thought that if I can sacrifice myself for them I will do so. Unfortunately, I found myself unworthy in spite that I am willing to give my life. My willingness is not enough to see myself good, nor my goodness is not enough even to see myself desirable unto God. In the end, I had come to see my unworthiness due to the reality of my being as mere dust. I can easily fall into deceptions, and self pride; not to mention that I can't even sort the depths of evil and goodness. Even the good that I willed to do sometimes end into evil conclusion/scenario. I have seen the limits of knowledge and understanding, and I have seen why it is not enough. I found myself unable to save myself, so in what way I could lead others to be saved? If it is not solely of God's grace, I would not have realized my foolishness. I came to understand that we may experience the same thing, and to be taught of the same thing, but to come into the same conclusion is not within our hands. As the Bible said: A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

I wondered why people believe in logical fallacies. I came to understand that they are not evil people-- as what I thought in error-- they are simply not elect.

If one reads your objections, he can easily spot the problem that it is contradicting the salvation through grace that we both believe. I have no special knowledge why I know you are contradicting grace, and I am not puzzled why you contradict grace. Perhaps, you really need to understand the true nature of man. Books are up there to read, but the most important thing is you experience it. Even atheists have good reasons in presenting the selfishness/evilness of human beings. Don't be like others who claim to be unworthy, believing in the bible without truly understanding it; because by heart they do not accept it. Else, you would cling to the same objections that you posit against me. It is in God's grace for you to come to realize your errors, no amount of reasoning will do.

And finally, if you come to understand the truth of human nature, then will you come to understand why prophecies serves as proof of Godhead.
You can be saved and still commit logical fallacies. We aren't perfect. Last time I checked, logical fallacies weren't sinful.

FarEastBird
11-07-2014, 01:01 PM
So, why does your belief matter to me? If your right, I can't do anything about it.

I can give you many good answers, but you have to understand that your objection shows your character in bad light. You are focusing much on your objection without trying to understand of the consequences in your objection.

I objected to God the same thing, and the broad answer that was given me is that without confirming the truth of my belief, I would be likened to a blind hoping that i would not fall in the ditch. Even granted that we are in the hands of God, would you like to remain blind? I guess you would say no.

Knowledge of Godhead is crucial part in salvation. The knowledge of the Godhead would lead us to understand how the "kingdom of God" is like. We cannot attain peace and joy without our eyes being truly opened to the knowledge of truth.

This present world will lead us to understand the depths of God's grace.

Christianbookworm
11-07-2014, 01:12 PM
If you were blind, a seeing eye dog could help you avoid the ditch.

FarEastBird
11-07-2014, 01:18 PM
You can be saved and still commit logical fallacies. We aren't perfect. Last time I checked, logical fallacies weren't sinful.


So then you have no understanding of the mystery of sin. And you are wallowing on your blindness.

The salvation of Christ is to cleanse us from ALL sin. With what you are saying, you will never understand what John wrote:

1John 3:8-10
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Christianbookworm
11-07-2014, 01:26 PM
Why do you think logical fallacies are sinful? Stop being legalistic! And a hyper calvinist...

FarEastBird
11-07-2014, 01:31 PM
Why do you think logical fallacies are sinful? Stop being legalistic! And a hyper calvinist...

Anything that is not of faith is sin.......

If your faith is in error, then you are not under faith, so then you are under sin. Not until we come to the knowledge of truth, we are under sin. Of course you would not understand this through your gospel.

Jedidiah
11-07-2014, 03:08 PM
Perhaps I should stop giving calcium carbonate spheres to members of Sus scrofa domesticus? :tongue:

Arrrggg.