PDA

View Full Version : Apologetic methodology


mattbballman19
January 31st 2003, 02:26 PM
Yo,

Things that I have a cursory knowledge of are the following:read:
1. The first third of Van Til's "Defense of the Faith" supporting presuppositionalism.
2. A five views book which I think is entitled "Five views of apologitics", which stars William Lane Criag as the spokeman for the classical view, Gary Habermas for the evidential view, Paul Fienberg (I think that's his name) utilizing the Cumalative view, John Frame representing his nuanced version of presuppostionalism (somewhat different than Til's), and Kelly James Clark defending the Reformed Epistemological view, which has its birth and/or growth in the minds of the likes of Plantinga, Wolterstorff, and Alston.
3. Glanced at a couple of points John Frame made in his book, "Apologetics to the Glory of God".
4. Read pretty critically John Warick Montgomery's chapter called "Once Upon an a priori" in his book "Evidential Apologetics", which, I will say, has a detailed rebuttal on a reformed website that I do not know off the top of my head by Greg Bahnsen.
5. Read some brief critiques by the likes of Geisler in his "Encylopedia of Christian Apologetics" and "Christian Apologetics"

That's about all the experience I've had in gaining knowledge on apologetic methodology.:yipee:

Here's my view :)

1. I believe apologetics to be not only rationally obligatory for us, as rational creatures, but also exegetically necessary when extrapolated correctly from the text of the Bible in its social, historical, literary, and geographical context.
I expound when needed; or if I can:thumb:

2.I believe that the presuppositional methodology of Van Til to be ideologically begging the question. Foundationally, he, as William Lane Craig points out in "Apologetics: 5 views", confuses knowing Christianity to be true and showing Christianity to be true. The former coming through the internal instigation of the Holy Spirit and the latter brought about through apologetics (showing evidence, Acts 2, Acts 17, 1 Pet 3:15; utilizing valid arguments with true premises in order to reach foundational truths that the Holy Spirit may use in order to bring that person to Christ (Rom 1 and 2).

3. I believe that 2 is possible, because I think that Christians and non-Christians have a common ground: rationality, or the mind; which is necessary consequence of being created in the image of God.

4. I believe that 3 is not skewed or obviated by Van Til's idea that the noetic effects of sin have destroyed this rationality. I believe that the noetic effects of sin have corrupted that rationality such that it is still capable of grasping a logical flow of argumentation leading towards a conclusion, which Christianity happens to agree with (God's existence, Christ's existence, historicity of the resurrection, miracles, possible explanation to various forms of the problem of evil (abductive, logical, probablistic, evidenctial), etc . . .)

5. I believe that 4 is supported by my experience when God uses me in evangelistic settings and biblical evidence involving the preaching styles of the apostles. They preached a historical claim (the resurrection, of course a whole interpretive theological paradigm comes with that, for miracles have no meaning apart from their theological context) which was presupposed by the ones preaching that the people could rationally understand historical, theological ramifications thereby opening the window of their mind, to enter the fortress of the heart. I forget who said it: "I cannot love what I know to be fase" or "The heart can't accept what the mind refuses to believe" or "The mind is the door to the heart" I forget, but I think they have a ring of truth.

This rationality available to all humans being created in God's image seems to make apologetics not only possible, but preferred.

Your thoughts on the above OR some thoughts of your own would be cool.

matt

Lizard
January 31st 2003, 05:02 PM
Quite a long thread for your first post.:thumb:

I think you will fit in very nicely. :D

I too have a passion for apologetics. I have been studying the subject informally for about two years now. However, I am realtively new to the whole debate forum experience. If you have not participated in a forum like this yet, then get ready to learn a good lesson in applied appologetics.

I look forward to reading many more of your post.

mattbballman19
February 1st 2003, 07:32 PM
Thanks for the encouragement, BTW!

I've spent some time on theologyonline.com, so I already have a little dose of my apologetic abilities put to the test.:cheers:

smilax
February 1st 2003, 07:54 PM
Presuppositional apologetics is not fideism, nor does it completely eschew evidence. It is based upon Calvinistic total depravity; after all, why shouldn't theology govern our apologetics? Romans i, 20 and viii, 7 are critical. The problem is sin, not evidence. What bothers me about evidentialism is that it attempts to fight the battle on naturalistic terms. More often than not, it is precisely the presuppositions that cause us to filter the evidence and thus treat it with bias, so what good will it do to present all the proof in the world for Christianity when we know that the person's problem is not intellectual disbelief, but sinful tendencies?

mattbballman19
February 2nd 2003, 06:39 PM
Presuppositional apologetics is not fideism, nor does it completely eschew evidence. It is based upon Calvinistic total depravity; after all, why shouldn't theology govern our apologetics? Romans i, 20 and viii, 7 are critical. The problem is sin, not evidence.

I agree with you right away that fideism does not totally encapsulate the presuppositional approach to apologetics! If I said that anywhere let me know, because I was wrong. Also, I think that evidence can be a possible means that the Holy Spirit can use in order to persuade a given person to accept salvation on the basis of my nuanced version of Total Depravity, which I will expound more upon on a seperate thread (or maybe on this one if the posters and/or moderators find it excusable).

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

With regard for Romans 1, I think it confuses the difference between the general revelation of God and the special revelation of God. The former entails that God is made known via nature and conscience (I think you mistake this and equate the availability of God's existence with knowledge of God himself).
I ask that you address my contentions concerning Paul, when encountering the Greeks, used apologetic discourse.

Their problem wasn't that they were atheists and that Paul needed to appeal to creation, rather that they were polytheists of the worst kind. Paul's apologetic concerned the specific truth of Christianity which can only be vindicated by defending Jesus' resurrection as historical fact. Therefore, the Athenian "UNKNOWN GOD" served as the impetus for Paul's Gospel message. Paul here uses "dielegeto" (or "reason"--from "dialegomai") that Drs. Timothy and Barbara Friberg and Dr. Neva Miller, Greek specialists, note its meaning as "to contend, argue, dispute" as well as "speaking to someone in order to convince" (Fribergs & Miller, Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Michigan: Baker Books, 2000), p. 110). That Paul would only be "contextualizing" in the case of the "UNKOWN GOD" only makes sense if Paul is arguing for the truth of his which we know took place just prior to his Athenian meeting of Areopagus.

I'm understanding that you have used Romans 1 to communicate that the unbeliever clearly knows the truths of God "through the things that are made" and that because the unbeliever's mind is at emnity with God, then no amount of appeal to the evidences will persuade a person to accept the things of God. You could also bring this into the mix,
"1 Cor. 2: believers have the Spirit of God. Evidence is offered to believers

Amen! Christians do not need (nor do they generally appeal) to external confirmation of their Christian belief. I agree that the knowledge that Christianity is true is authenticated by the self-authenticating witness of the Holy Spirit.

My information was simply to justify why apologetics becomes necessary in showing to others this same truth.

It just seems that the missionary preaching in Acts would give us evidence of that.

Just for clarification, I believe that apologetics is a system or method by which we defend the Christian faith against the intellectual objections of unbelieving skeptics. But to say that apologetics is the system or method by which we bring ignorant or skeptical unbelievers from their state of ignorance or skepticism (or even hostility) to the state of belief and confidence in the truths of Christianity to salvation, then it just doesn't happen and I don't expect it to. Maybe twice in my lifetime have I even seen a claim for it. So maybe I need to add: (1) It certifies judgment on those who choose to unbelieve. (2) It serves to educate and disciple the beliver.

It just seems like like the empty tomb...fulfillment of prophecy...miracles done by Jesus and the apostles...etc are evidence that apologetics was used in the Bible.

So for future concern I would ask for to comment on (i) the knowing/showing distinction, (ii) Jesus' use of apologetics, (iii) Paul's use of apologetics, (iv) Peter's use of "apologia," (v) preaching the Gospel and the Great Commission imply apologetics, and (vi) the pedagogical use of apologetics.

Looking at my first post, I also raised 1 Peter 3:15. Apologia actually means to "give a defense" and is a legal term. I'm guessing that you would acknowledge this and show how it is perfectly fine, since you do use an apologetic system.

so what good will it do to present all the proof in the world for Christianity when we know that the person's problem is not intellectual disbelief, but sinful tendencies?

Again, I ask that you address the things I said above.

Your bro in Christ
matt

flipper
February 2nd 2003, 08:08 PM
Shouldn't this be in the Theology forums?

mattbballman19
February 3rd 2003, 12:37 AM
I knew it probably wouldn't fit:p

That's why I said near the top that it would be alright with me if we moved it to a theology thread.

mattbballman19
February 3rd 2003, 03:13 PM
I don't want to make anybody see red, but if a moderator could be so kind as to separate the wheat from the chaff and take this thread to theology forum. I know its a shot in the dark, but I think I'd get more of a response from my fellow silver-tounged orators on 'the web'.

matt

Sparko
August 31st 2006, 09:54 PM
:grin: