The Fate of the Non-Elect.

[seer]

After years of study and debate I have to say that I'am quite agnostic about the fate of the non-elect. One of the more brilliant Calvinist of the last century, Arthur Custance, had the same struggle, which he spoke of in his classic book: The Sovereignty of Grace:

http://custance.org/Library/SOG/Index.html#Page3


When it comes down to it, it all has to do with our view of scripture, and our "controling texts." Both of which can be quite subjective.

Example:

1 Timothy 2:4-6

"God wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time."

Now there are three views of this text:

1. Calvinist:

A. All men does not mean literally all men,but all classes or types.

B. All men does mean all men, but this only expresses God's desire on the matter, not His intention or will.

2. Arminan:

God does in fact want all men to be saved, but God's grace is not irresistable.

3. Universalism:

God does in fact want all men to be saved, and will bring it about:

http://pantheon.yale.edu/%7Ekd47/univ.htm


What is often sad, is that Arminians and Calvinists will offer each other the right hand of fellowship, while at the same time decrying the Universalist as a heretic. But the Universalist simply believes what the Arminan believes (that God wants all me to be saved) and believes what the Calvinist believes (that God will do all His pleasure) that including the salvation of all.

[kente777]

Seer,

Thank you for not treating we who believe in universal reconciliation as heretics. I believe in the same Jesus as the orthodox church. I believe that Christ's death on the Cross paid the penalty for sin which is death. I also believe in the judgment of God after death. I simply do not believe it is eternal.

I believe universal reconciliation is the truth of the holy scriptures. All 3 views, Calvinism, Arminianism, and universal reconciliation seem to have scriptural support. However, only one can be correct. I would like to add one more, and that is, annihiliationism.

The bottom line is that I don't believe that this issue need to separate believers from fellowship. Some have treated me as a heretic (only because they do not seek to understand why I believe the way I do). I have good scriptural support just as those who believe in eternal torment believe they have. However, since there seem to be two opposing views in scripture, somehow we must reconcile the two. This is not easy, and I personally, do not believe this can be done solely through bible study methods. All truth must be a revelation from the Father as illuminated by God's Spirit. Truth, all truth, must be received and implemented by faith. That faith is not generated by us, but is the faith of the Son of Man.

To me the key to understanding all truth is to know Christ--for when we see Him, we know what the Father is like.

I pray not that men would necessarily come to see that universal reconciliation is the truth (although that will happen one day), but that the Church would walk in love toward one another while we are in these bodies of sin. One day we will all know in full even as we are known.

God bless

[geebob]

I find calvinism horrendous because of the implications reprobation and the most problematic stance on the problem of evil.

I'm not going to say that Calvinists are heretics and I wouldn't dare suggest that I am necessarily more spiritual and close to God because I don't believe these awful things (fact is, I'm not much of a saint and there are plenty of calvinists who pretty much are).

So if we are going to consider calvinists our brothers, I agree that it would make no sense at all jeer at the universalists as anathema.

[seer]

Thanks for your thoughts kente. I believe that since Universalism has wide spread acceptance in the early Church, and more than a little biblical support it sould be discussed in a spirit of humility.

[seer]

So if we are going to consider calvinists our brothers, I agree that it would make no sense at all jeer at the universalists as anathema.

I think our brotherhood, as far as it rests on doctrine, rests on a correct understanding of the Person of Christ and His finished work on the cross. Not on our understanding of the fate of the non-elect.

[kente777]

Seer,

I would agree with your statement. Truth can only be found in Christ. His work is central to understanding how creation began and how it will end.

Here's a brotherhood passage for ya: "Is there not one Father to us all? Has not one God created us?..." Mal. 2:10

So even--as you would call them--the non-elect, are my brothers. And Paul adds in Acts 17 that we are all the offspring of God. These two passages should give all of us a different perspective on how to look at those who, here and now, are rejecting the work of the Cross. We have a tendancy to be exclusive and treat them as outcasts. But the scriptures teach us that they are simply our lost brothers who are in need of the same salvation that we have been given.

Ken

P.S. I only believe they are the non-elect in this age and the age to come. There are at least 2 future ages in which God can and will fulfill His plan to restore all things to Himself (Acts 3:21).

[seer]

Yes Ken, by reason of creation God's Fatherhood is universal. And so is our brotherhood (Acts 17 again). But in the spiritual sense there is a difference between the sons of God and the sons of disobedience. Of the children of light and the children of the Devil. Paul asks what communion has light with darkness - speaking of believers with unbelievers 1 Cor.6:14-18.

[kente777]

"But in the spiritual sense there is a difference between the sons of God and the sons of disobedience."

Absolutely. Those who are in Christ have been made alive--we are a new creation. Those who are outside of the faith, are dead in their sins and trespesses and still have a dead spirit, incapable of producing any life whatsoever.

This difference, which is great, is only temporary. God is working in the lives of all men to bring about His great salvation throughout the whole earth. No man will be forgotten, no man will be left alone. It is the grave that stops us from fully believing that God's plan will be accomplished. But the grave did not stop the Father from raising Jesus, why should the grave stop the Father from accomplishing His will--that all men come to the knowledge of the truth. "To men it is impossible, but for God, ALL things are possible."

Faith is the key! :)

Ken

[kente777]

"Of the children of light and the children of the Devil. Paul asks what communion has light with darkness - speaking of believers with unbelievers 1 Cor.6:14-18."

You are right, we are not to fellowship with darkness. Why? Because we are estranged from one another because of sin. But that estrangment that you and I had from the Father did not prevent Him from working in our lives--drawing us unto Himself--unto He brought us into Christ. So in the same way, we should not stop loving, praying for, and reaching out to those who are still in darkness. Fellowship with them--no. Develop a relationship with them in order to bring them to Christ--absolutely! Just as the Father has not given up on us, we should not give up on the world.

[seer]

...So in the same way, we should not stop loving, praying for, and reaching out to those who are still in darkness. Fellowship with them--no.

I agree Ken. BTW I'am going to start a new thread on Sin,Evil and Suffering. This might be interesting - tell our friends at Tentmaker perhaps they would like to join in.

[kente777]

You said, After years of study and debate I have to say that I'am quite agnostic about the fate of the non-elect."

Seer, perhaps this is your problem--study and debate. Perhaps you need to ask God for the faith to believe in His plan. Study is good, but it will not lead us to truth.

Read my article, http://www.savior-of-all.com/faith.html

Have a good day!

[seer]

Seer, perhaps this is your problem--study and debate. Perhaps you need to ask God for the faith to believe in His plan. Study is good, but it will not lead us to truth.

LOL, and Ken, you give more to study! :bunny:

But of course I do pray and ask God for insight. But as yet that information has not been forthcoming.

BTW - I have read that piece before. You linked it on Tentmaker. It was quite good....

[mandolin]

well... sure, god wills for all to be saved. So calvinism is lacking. And mankind is worthless without god...so arminianism is lacking.

But gehenna awaits the sinners...so universalism is lacking. You see... the antichrist...satan...the beast...they all are cast into the pit...the same place that the sinners are cast into. Am I right??

Granted...i'm no universalism expert, but I do think the bible is quite clear in its portrayal of the future for the "sinners".

God wills for all to be saved... But he doesn't force it. This does not deny god his omnipotence...it grants him his loving justice, by allowing him to give his creation the right to choose for themselves.

[kente777]

Two things:

First, do you realize that "gehenna" was an actual geographical place that Jesus was referring to? The Old Testament calls it the "valley of Hinnom." It was the Jerusalem garbage dump. What makes you so sure that this actual geographical place during the time of Christ will be a future place of punishment? Also, "gehenna" was only known to the Jews which is proved by the fact that only Jesus and James ever used the term in the NT. Jesus was ministering to the "lost sheep of Israel" and James wrote to the 12 tribes scattered abroad. Paul, the apostle to the gentiles, never uses the term. This is very interesting and quite telling.

Secondly, if God wills that all men be saved, and God will work out ALL things according to the counsel of His own will, are you saying that God is too weak to see His own will accomplished? What will keep God's will from being done--puny man's free will? Your view of God's power is limited and your view of man's ability to stop God's plan is over-rated.

Your explanation is indeed very weak and has many holes in it. I will not say that universalism does not have tough passages to deal with, but the evidence you have presented is not convincing of your argument that men will be tormented forever.

One more thing: I guess Saul wasn't forced off his horse and blinded by Jesus in order to bring him to salvation? I'm glad that God forced His way into my life because I was totally incapable of seeking Him. The Bible says that "none are righteous" and "no one seeks God."

I guess you are smarter than me because you chose God. Good on you then. I would rather count myself as totally weak that the power of Christ may rest on me and sustain me. I can do nothing without Him.

Here's a little article that might get you to think more about this concept of God forcing Himself on us.


The James Dobson Nightmare
by Martin Zender


When answering a question concerning salvation in a recent Focus on the Family magazine, Dr. James Dobson wrote: "God will not force Himself on anyone." (Focus on the Family, December, 1994, pg. 5.) Hold onto that nightmarish thought, if you are able. Dr. Dobson is not alone in this, but he will serve as an example.

A distraught father had written Dr. Dobson concerning his teenage daughter. The girl was rebelling. Caught up with a fast crowd, she was mired in sin. The father had cried, pleaded, and prayed. Now he wrote Dr. Dobson. Is there hope? My God, is there hope for my daughter?

Dr. Dobson's answer, capsulated, was: It is up to her, my friend. If she accepts Christ, there is hope. If she does not, well, God will not force Himself on anyone.

Clean words. Neat words. Well-manicured theology, painted red to hide the dirt beneath the nails. Like those who pretended to see the Emperor's new clothes, Dobson's readership nods like sage puppets. No one questions it. We, however, must read between the doctor's lines and expose the bitter roots of his words. Were Dr. Dobson to bare the bones of this orthodox monster, this is what we would read:

Sorry, my friend, but, unless your daughter comes to her senses, she is lost. If this is to be, then your tears will mean nothing, for not even the perfect blood of Jesus Christ can save little girls who do not first love Him. Your precious daughter, I regret to tell you, is inches from eternal torment. The soft, golden hair you once stroked may be minutes from an eternity in the claws of Satan. I know that sounds harsh, but I must not shrink from telling it to you, for I am a minister of the Good News. From what you have told me, your daughter's salvation is quite doubtful. I'm sorry. Your daughter, of all people, needs God's blessed force. But God will not force Himself on anyone. He's a polite, eavesdropping God, a hopeful spectator in His own creation, waiting in the wings to see if we will like Him. He leaves these important decisions to us, my friend. I, myself, was wise enough to choose Him. Your daughter, apparently, is not.

Is she sorry enough for her sin? Personally, I don't believe she is. But for her sake, and for yours, I do hope things change. And soon. Good luck.



Crushing our well-walled world

Oh, Dr. Dobson. How were you saved, most knowledgeable sir? Your theology answers the question. It seems you have made the truly wise and remarkable decision to seek out and "appropriate" God's salvation for yourself. This is remarkable, for you have defied two universal laws, namely, 1) "Not one is seeking out God"—Rom. 3:11, and 2) "No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him"—Jn. 6:44.

Think about this, Dr. Dobson, for it is a truth: Men seek out God after they are saved, not before. I suggest writing that on a piece of paper and taping it in a conspicuous place, like the front of your Bible. It will damage the opinion you now hold of yourself, but the truth will heal after it hurts.

You did not choose God, Dr. Dobson; He chose you. Someday you will realize that. Had God not forced Himself upon you, you'd be like the rest of the people—like that man's daughter, for instance—whom you now believe to be too foolish or stubborn to know what's good for them.

For Christ, while we are still infirm, still in accord with the era, for the sake of the irreverent, died. Yet God is commending this love of His to us, seeing that, while we are still sinners, Christ died for our sakes." —Romans 5:6,8

Infirm people are helpless, Dr. Dobson. Sinners cannot save themselves. Thank God Almighty that the Son of His love forced Himself into our precious, self-sufficient lives to save us from ourselves. I would like to ask you, Dr. Dobson: if you were unconscious and drowning at sea, would you be offended later to discover that the Coast Guard forced itself on you with a rescue craft and six frogmen? Perhaps so. It is human pride that does not need to be saved, thank you. Don't call us, Mr. Savior, we'll call you. Yet Jesus Christ called you, Dr. Dobson, He saved you, while you were yet infirm, yet irreverent, yet in accord with the era. He died for your sake. He forced Himself into your well-walled world, crumbling the confines of your crippled heart.

And now you can thank God that He did.

The power of the cross

How did God force Himself upon us? He sent His Son, Who emptied Himself of His celestial glory to hang broken, bleeding, separated from His Father on a cursed tree—for our sakes. We watched Him there. We saw Him look upon those who had stripped Him of His last human garments and nailed Him to the cross. His eyes moved among them, from the height of the cross, first to one, then to another. His eyes possessed a tender fluidity, an unearthly love that was not of men. Then, with anguished breath, through a tongue swelled from thirst, He said, "Father, forgive them....."

Our knees began trembling when He said that. Why did He say that? How could He say that? Had He really said that? We knew then, deep down, that we were no better than the Roman soldiers, no better than the Jewish priests who delivered Him to death. His words undid us. We had been content to live our own lives, to go our own way, to seek scenes for our life that were easily more joyous, more blessed, more personally satisfying than this bloody hill. But then, we looked at Him.

Something about Him drew us. It was the Father, for none can come to Christ unless they be drawn by Him (Jn 6:44). And when we looked at Him, He was returning our gaze with those same eyes, fluid and celestial.

"God, no!" we cried, and it just came out of our mouths, we could not help saying it. We could not take it back. We had betrayed our weakness. Then we fell with an abandon foreign to us to the dust under the cross, holding our wet faces behind our fingers, weeping uncontrollable tears at the foot of the wood, heaving our shoulders against it. We could not have done that apart from the force of the cross. The cross was of God, and God was the cause of our falling tears.

While we are still sinners.

And thus did God, through His Son, force Himself upon us. He had done something so deep, so wonderful, so unlike anything we would have done, that, given tens of thousands of years, none of us would ever have dreamed it, let alone accomplished it, let alone applied its accomplishment to our enemies.

He rescued us. He reached down through the veil of our stubbornness and rescued us from ourselves. Thank God that He did. Without Him, what would we have? We need Him still, every moment of every day. We cannot afford an instant of self-sufficiency. What an ash heap of human pride is the saying: "God will not force Himself on anyone." That is the lie of Satan. Yet how many who claim the name of Christ believe and teach it.

No claim to competency

This prayer, then: Father, continue to force Yourself into our lives. If it was up to us, we would not have You. We do not know what is good for us. We, like the humbled Job, cannot arrange our case because of darkness. And as Jeremiah said, under inspiration of holy spirit, a man's way is not in himself, nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps. Continue to overrule and override our foolish desires, our foolish ideas about how things should be. We are nothing without You.

Cause us to lean not on our own understanding, or to imagine that we could have done anything good apart from Your force. Cause us, in all things, to give place to You as the One Who orders our steps. Even the great apostle Paul said that You make us competent (Col. 1:12). This is wisdom from above. Our competency cannot originate, continue or consummate within ourselves. All praise and honor and glory to You, Father, the Force of the universe.