Pistis Christou

[Tercel]

What are people's thoughts on the subject/objective genitive debate regarding the best reading of Pistis Christou? (For those who aren't at all up with the play, there is a debate as to where the greek phrase should be translated as "[our] faith in Christ" or "the faith of Christ ")

Personally I would have to say that one purely contextual grounds (ie following Paul's argument etc) that the subjective rendering looks to be incomparably more sensible.

But there is another issue I have been considering, if we assume for a moment that the subjective "faithfulness of Christ" is correct...
In English, to assign attributes this way is [i]still ambiguous, eg "John's intelligence" can refer to either to:
1. the intelligence specifically of John. eg "John's intelligence got him the job", in other words "The fact that John is intelligent caused John to get the job"
2. or to a level of intelligence that John happens to have. eg "I wish I had John's intelligence", in other words "I wish I had a level of intelligence similar to what John has".

So "the faithfulness of Christ" seems to be able to be read as "Christ's act of faithfulness" OR "faithfulness like Christ's". (I would want to say that Paul virtually always means the second, thus where it has been traditionally rendered "believe in Christ" I would write "faithfulness to God like Christ had") Does this ambiguity have a name in Greek? Or does this ambiguity exist only in English not Greek? And if it doesn't exist in Greek, which does the subjective genitive meaning of Pistis Christou actually refer to?

[lee_merrill]

Hi Tercel,

… there is a debate as to where the greek phrase should be translated as "[our] faith in Christ" or "the faith of Christ [ie Christ's faith]")I like the second interpretation. Jesus asked his disciples a lot: "Where is your faith?" I think he wanted them to look! He had it, I believe.

… where it has been traditionally rendered "believe in Christ" I would write "faithfulness to God like Christ had"Most translations say "the fruit of the Spirit is … faithfulness" in Gal. 5:22, so I would expect this is possible:

"The Christian life is a life lived 'by faith.' Its basis is 'the faith/ faithfulness of Jesus Christ'" (Word Biblical Commentary)

I would prefer simply "faith" here, though.

Blessings,
Lee

[Tercel]

I like the second interpretation.So do I. I just feel that it fits SOO much better with the rest of the NT thought that I have to wonder how anyone can think the first interpretation is better.

I would prefer simply "faith" here, though.The "faith" vs "faithfulness" debate is seperate from the other objective vs subjective genitive debate, though they are linked. At the moment, your average translators will render "pistis" and its derivatives in any sentence as any one of "belief, faith, faithfulness, trust, confidence, assurance, devotion, obedience" etc as best takes their fancy. The NRSV for example renders its negation once as "disobedience" and once as "unbelief" in the space of two sentences (Hebrews 3:18-19), and even it as "believes" and its negation as "disobeys" in the same sentence (John 3:36).

I think this is just totally ludicrous: in arguments it is extremely important that exactly the same word is used so the terms can be clearly understood by the reader, and in logic the terms have to match in order to get from the premises to the conclusion. One of my pet peeves is that every occurance of pistis and derivates should be translated the same to reflect this, and the single best english word to convey most clearly the meaning of pistis in the NT is probably "faithfulness", though my friend who agrees with me up to here, prefers it to be rendered as "devotion".

[lee_merrill]

Hi Tercel,

Well, I fished a little more, and here is another verse with practically the same expression:

Galatians 2:16 ... that we may be justified by faith in Christ.

The same genitive, yet here it clearly means "faith in Christ." But I would say that "I no longer live" in Gal. 2:20 would indicate not Paul's faith, but Christ's faith in the verse in question.

At the moment, your average translators will render "pistis" and its derivatives in any sentence as any one of "belief, faith, faithfulness, trust, confidence, assurance, devotion, obedience" etc as best takes their fancy.I did also look at "the fruit of the Spirit is … faith[fulness?]" in the commentaries, and they assured me that the context requires "faithfulness" here, not "faith," though they did not tell me why! So I shall continue to read "faith" here, until someone can point to me what it is in the context that they have in mind. Are they concerned that people have a part in faith, and it cannot therefore be all from God? I think the same objection could be said about love. Is their concern in the opposite direction, that they don't want to attribute faith in any way to man, for it must only come from God? Then this is also true about goodness, "no one is good except God alone" (Mk. 10:18).

… the single best english word to convey most clearly the meaning of pistis in the NT is probably "faithfulness", though my friend who agrees with me up to here, prefers it to be rendered as "devotion".That could be, though I would say that this word probably has a range of meanings, so different English words may well be appropriate, such as in the word "kindness" in the list of the fruit of the Spirit, it is broader than just that one meaning. But it is important to be consistent! I appreciate the Amplified Bible, which translates "faith" with a whole phrase! Every time (if memory serves me correctly): "Depend, trust, rely on"…

Blessings,
Lee

[themuzicman]

One other interpretation of the genetive is that faith could be proceeding from or going to Christ.

Thus the "faith of Christ" could refer to the faith that we place in Him.

Michael

[Jaltus]

About the only place where it could be "faithfulness of Christ" would be Rom 3.

[Tercel]

Well, I fished a little more, and here is another verse with practically the same expression:

Galatians 2:16 ... that we may be justified by faith in Christ.

The same genitive, yet here it clearly means "faith in Christ."I disagree, I would read it:

"yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through a level of faithfulness to God like Christ's. And we have come to be faithful to Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by a level of faithfulness to God like Christ's, and not by doing the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law."

But I would say that "I no longer live" in Gal. 2:20 would indicate not Paul's faith, but Christ's faith in the verse in question.Even if you insist on rendering it as "the faith of the son of God" there's no reason that can't be faith like the son of God's, as I mentioned in my original post.

Jaltus says:
About the only place where it could be "faithfulness of Christ" would be Rom 3.I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here Jaltus. As far as I know it is accepted that IF the subjective genitive reading was deemed correct the replacement would be a universal one.

Not that I'm an expert on the subject, but my understanding was that Gal 2:20 rather than Romans 3 was actually the first passage that using the subjective genitive in was suggested for, and the usage has spread from there. The recent NET Bible translation is pretty consistent in its use of the subjective genitive throughout the NT. See its version of Galations 2 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/gal2.htm) for example.

[Jaltus]

If I have some time over the following week, I'll go into my point of view.

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Even if you insist on rendering it as "the faith of the son of God" there's no reason that can't be faith like the son of God's, as I mentioned in my original post.Well, I don't think this is a reading that most commentaries present as an alternative, though. As far as I recall, they say it might mean "Christ's faith" or "faith in Christ," but not "faith like Christ's faith." "Faithfulness" is possible, but I haven't seen that mentioned as a possibility in Gal. 2:20 either.

Not that the commentators are infallible! But that's my understanding of their understanding. :smile:

Blessings,
Lee

[Swordman53]

What are people's thoughts on the subject/objective genitive debate regarding the best reading of Pistis Christou? (For those who aren't at all up with the play, there is a debate as to where the greek phrase should be translated as "[our] faith in Christ" or "the faith of Christ [ie Christ's faith]")

So "the faithfulness of Christ" seems to be able to be read as "Christ's act of faithfulness" OR "faithfulness like Christ's". (I would want to say that Paul virtually always means the second, thus where it has been traditionally rendered "believe in Christ" I would write "faithfulness to God like Christ had") Does this ambiguity have a name in Greek? Or does this ambiguity exist only in English not Greek? And if it doesn't exist in Greek, which does the subjective genitive meaning of Pistis Christou actually refer to?

The subjective rendering of this is gaining more favor with scholars. It is consistent in form with the "faith of Abraham" in Romans 4:16.

Therefore, the righteousness of God is disclosed through the faithfulness of Christ (Romans 3:21-22).

Galatians 2:16 and 3:22 also follow this pattern. That is, the promises of God come through the faithfulness of Christ for all who believe.

This makes us take a serious look at Ephesians 2:8 and wonder if this verse also is speaking of the faithfulness of Christ. While not as explicit as Romans 3:21-22, this faith is testified to in Ephesians 2:4-7 (see also 2:13-17). This idea that we are redeemed through the faithful work of Christ certainly is consistent within Paul and takes the focus off of ourselves (our faith) and onto what God has done.

Swordman53

[Swordman53]

Hi everyone,

Well, I don't think this is a reading that most commentaries present as an alternative, though. As far as I recall, they say it might mean "Christ's faith" or "faith in Christ," but not "faith like Christ's faith." "Faithfulness" is possible, but I haven't seen that mentioned as a possibility in Gal. 2:20 either.

Not that the commentators are infallible! But that's my understanding of their understanding. :smile:

Blessings,
Lee

Actually, most exegetical commentaries deal with this issue and most modern translations have the subjective translation (faith of Christ) in the footnotes.

Swordman53

[Swordman53]

Actually, most exegetical commentaries deal with this issue and most modern translations have the subjective translation (faith of Christ) in the footnotes.

Swordman53

Correction - (I re-read your post)

Romans 3:26 is the passage that may be speaking of us have the faith of Christ, or - a faith like Christ. This would be consistent with the idea that Jewish (and Christian) faith should be modeled after Abraham's faith. In the same way, Christ sets a pattern of faithfulness that we are to follow.

Swordman53

[James Peter]

I think I lean towards the "Faith coming from/belonging to Christ" meaning. If 'Faith' is a gift and not a virtue then it makes perfect sense...

'Faith in Christ' implies that the faith is coming from us and that isn't the case. Of course you could read 'Faith in Christ' as 'Faith from being in Christ' which I wouldn't have a problem with.

I don't think that a single translation for the phrase in all cases is possible simply because there is no reason that the phrase has to mean the same each time. To take a completely distinct example should 'logos' always be rendered the same? Translators have to do their best to reflect the meaning of the text and to simplify it so that each greek word has a simple english equivelant would do more harm than good. I mean why not just transliterate the greek in that case, it would probably be a better option as you'd have both a single word and a single word which actually reflected what the text meant...but then we'd have to decide which aspect of the word's meaning was applicable each time it came up.

[Swordman53]

I think I lean towards the "Faith coming from/belonging to Christ" meaning. If 'Faith' is a gift and not a virtue then it makes perfect sense...

'Faith in Christ' implies that the faith is coming from us and that isn't the case. Of course you could read 'Faith in Christ' as 'Faith from being in Christ' which I wouldn't have a problem with.

I don't think that a single translation for the phrase in all cases is possible simply because there is no reason that the phrase has to mean the same each time. To take a completely distinct example should 'logos' always be rendered the same? Translators have to do their best to reflect the meaning of the text and to simplify it so that each greek word has a simple english equivelant would do more harm than good. I mean why not just transliterate the greek in that case, it would probably be a better option as you'd have both a single word and a single word which actually reflected what the text meant...but then we'd have to decide which aspect of the word's meaning was applicable each time it came up.

Most theologians who hold that this is the "faith of Christ" mean that it is the faith belonging to Christ. That is, we are saved by Christ's faithfulness on the cross.

This also informs the meaning of Ephesians 2:8 - the faith here most likely is the faith of Christ. And examination of the prior seven verses supports this. this means that God's gift of salvation is by his grace which is manifest through the faithful work of Christ on the cross.

Even if this is not the case, the gift of Ephesians 2:8 is salvation, not faith.

If you are referencing 3:26 faith we would be hard pressed to say Paul means that we literally get faith from Jesus. Rather, he is saying that the faith Jesus has is the same type of faith we are to have.

Always keep in mind, the term PISTIS is used with several nuances in the New Testament. It is not always referencing saving faith.

Swordman53

[James Peter]

Actually I was thinking in terms of 1 Corinthians (12-14) when I spoke about faith being a gift (along with love and hope).

The faith I'm suggesting would only be possible in that it comes through the Cross and from Christ, as all spiritual gifts do. It belongs to Christ as much as we do, which is utterly. I guess that I am perfectly happy disagreeing with most theologians though...in a few more years I should be counted amongst their number properly but I won't suspend my right to an opinion as long as I can sustain it until then ;)

[Swordman53]

Actually I was thinking in terms of 1 Corinthians (12-14) when I spoke about faith being a gift (along with love and hope).

The faith I'm suggesting would only be possible in that it comes through the Cross and from Christ, as all spiritual gifts do. It belongs to Christ as much as we do, which is utterly. I guess that I am perfectly happy disagreeing with most theologians though...in a few more years I should be counted amongst their number properly but I won't suspend my right to an opinion as long as I can sustain it until then ;)

lol - My friend, never suspend your right to your own mind. Just labor to take on the mind of Christ.

Peace,

Swordman53

[James Peter]

That would of course always be the goal. :)

Is there any grammatical reason I've overlooked which makes by interpretation/translation invalid or a I simply not in the majority? Because I'll be the first to admit my greek is still far from the standard I'd like it to be.

[Swordman53]

That would of course always be the goal. :)

Is there any grammatical reason I've overlooked which makes my interpretation/translation invalid or a I simply not in the majority? Because I'll be the first to admit my greek is still far from the standard I'd like it to be.

It took me two tried to get the Greek down and I am still learning. I started in my undergrad and learned the rudiments. Then I retook Greek with my masters and pushed onto advanced exegetical Greek during that time. Now I try to use it whenever I can and I still am not as comfortable as I would like. That is after 10 years of constant use, so be patient with yourself. (Just wait until you hit Hebrew - that is the killer.)

I would suggest that faith is a gift of the Spirit as defined by 1 Corinthians 12:9. However, I do not believe this is saving faith in this case since it is listed as gifts to the church, for the life of the church. It is not the faith that draws us into the new creation, but the faith that sustains us within it.

You will note that Paul does not list love and hope in 1 Corinthians 12 as gifts of the Spirit. I believe that these (with saving faith) are aspects of the image of God that indwells us. They may be corrupted by the fall, but they are not lost. An unbelieving mother can love her child just as God loves us. We can have hope for a good future, even when that future is simply temporal. These are always present within us and Paul's assertion in chapter 13 is that they are eternal qualities. That is why I would suggest that they are part of the imago dei (the image of God) that indwells all persons. Key to good evangelism is to leverage all of these aspects.

If these three are a gift, they are given at creation, when God breathed into us.

Swordman53