The Official Trinity Thread

[n0rstar]

First I would like to apologize for my recent outburst and informality in a previous thread touching down on this subject. That being said, I am going to post 10 verses. These 10 verses will be my rebuttal against the trinitarian doctrine. To keep things simpler for replies.

1) Break down the 10 Verses as to why you think or come to understand how its not disreguarding the trinity doctrine.

2) After you have done so, please quote 10 verses that supports the trinitarine doctrine.

My understanding of the Trinity Doctrine is, that God manifests himself as the Father, Son & Holy Spirit. All are co-equal and co-eternal and all are God. The scripture below however shows us again that the Father is greater than the Son. Instead of thinking about a circle divided into 3 parts that make up God, think about what the following scripture is saying.


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John 3:16 (NWT)“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life #

John 6:46 (English-NIV)
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

John 15:1-2 (NWT) “I am the true vine, and my Father is the cultivator. 2 Every branch in me not bearing fruit he takes away, and every one bearing fruit he cleans, that it may bear more fruit.

John 16:27 (NWT) For the Father himself has affection for YOU, because YOU have had affection for me and have believed that I came out as the Father’s representative

John 17:3 (NWT)This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ

John 17:17(NWT) Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God

Romans 15:6(NWT) that with one accord YOU may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 11:3 (NWT) But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God *

1 Corinthians (NWT) 15:24-28Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

Revelations 1:1 (NWT) A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented in signs through him to his slave John

[i][Footnote]
# The word begotten (monogenes) means only child, single of its kind.
So we can see that God gave his only Son, so that those that believe in him will have eternal life.
But doesn't God have other Sons? After all are not those who believe amongst mankind, called the sons of God and there are also some scriptures that refer to the Elect Angels as the Sons of God.
The difference is that Jesus is the only one who came directly from the Father and we (creation) came from Jesus and amongst mankind, woman came from the Man in the beginning and now man is born through woman

* The Head of Christ is God. This scripture shows a completely different structure or pattern from the Trinity.
The word head in the Greek is the word "kephale" which literally means 'from', 'source' or 'position of authority'.
If God were a Trinity, how do you explain that the head of Christ is God. We know that Jesus is the Christ, but so far the scriptures seem to say that God is the head of Jesus. Is the Father the one and only God? Is the Father above all, even Christ?

[Sparko]

N0rstar,

I just recently posted a large article on the trinity in this thread: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37496

So rather than repost it (against forum rules) I will just link to it above (see posts #2 and #3)

I will see if I can find the time to respond to your specific points above at a later time, but as a short answer, Jesus is both fully man and fully God to trinitarians. As a man, he lowered himself to our level in many ways. In doing so, the Father is higher than him, not in equality, but more like in title, like in an office. One man is president and another is vice president. That does not mean that one man is greater than the other. They are still equal as human beings go. So it is with the Father and Jesus. As such Jesus the man can call the Father his God and the Father can be said to be the head of Jesus the son.

[barryrob]

N0rstar,

I just recently posted a large article on the trinity in this thread: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37496

So rather than repost it (against forum rules) I will just link to it above (see posts #2 and #3)

I will see if I can find the time to respond to your specific points above at a later time, but as a short answer, Jesus is both fully man and fully God to trinitarians. As a man, he lowered himself to our level in many ways. In doing so, the Father is higher than him, not in equality, but more like in title, like in an office. One man is president and another is vice president. That does not mean that one man is greater than the other. They are still equal as human beings go. So it is with the Father and Jesus. As such Jesus the man can call the Father his God and the Father can be said to be the head of Jesus the son.
The God Man Jesus died as the Lamb, so God died but the Bible states that:-



Habakkuk 1:12 "Are you not from long ago, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. O Jehovah, for a judgment you have set it; and, O Rock, for a reproving you have founded it."



So as Jesus died and God says he cannot die Jesus cannot be God!

Barryrob

[Sparko]

Depends on what you mean by die, barryrob.

Jesus' human body ceased to function, temporarily, but his divine self never died.

Much of the time when the bible speaks of "death" it is not speaking of physical death, but spiritual death. Like when Adam and Eve sinned. God said they would die on the day they sinned. Yet they remained alive. Was God lying? No. They died spiritually, they fell and became corrupted by sin. They died on that day.

[barryrob]

To die means "cease to live", so Jesus ceased to alive, he became a dead soul!

This cannot happen to God who is from everlasting to everlasting.

Barryrob

[Sparko]

Barryrob,

Only you JW's believe that their is no eternal soul to keep living after physical death. The rest of us believe that we have a spiritual component to ourselves that continues after physical death, and that when the bible speaks of death, it can be of physical death (of the body) or of spiritual death (meaning no longer righteous and worthy to be in God's presence)

So, since we believe that Jesus divine spirit did not die, but went to be with the Father until his resurrection 3 days later. God did not "die"

And even if you do wish to take it in the same meaning as spiritual death, if Jesus was God, and the Father was God, then Jesus dying did not mean the Father died. The Father still lived, and therefore God did not die.

[n0rstar]

so ok, Jesus is going to reign for 1,000 years after the first ressurection. Then he is going to hand it back to his father (Jehovah). So in other words, according to your beliefs, God is going to hand over his kingdom...... to himself?

and what about when Jesus was baptized. "matthew 3:16After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him. 17Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”

So God, is throwing his voice as a clever ruse? hmm

Maybe if you people start quoting more scriptures rather then reverting to you own thinking, I (we) would understand and respect your opinion more.

[k4cym]

Hello to you all,

My name is John, I have not been the forum for a while. I'm not a JW but I don't believe the trinity doctrine to be true. To believe that God has come down to us in human flesh is nothing new.

Acts 14:10-11 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.

The foundation of the trinity doctrine being that God is three co-eternal, co-equal persons is something that has been formulated by man. Scripture have to be twisted and sometimes changed to fit this mindset.

We really need to allow the scriptures to speak for themselves and let God direct us in His truth.

One topic that I see being referred to is the death of Jesus.

All this talk of the immortal soul, physical death Vs spiritual death has been perverted with pagan influences.

There is only one who has immortality and that is the one true God.

1 Timothy 6:16 God alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

We who believe and obey until the end will receive our immorality at the first resurrection.

Romans 2:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

1 Cor. 15:52-54 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

To understand spiritual death only means that we are separated from God's fellowship. It has nothing to do with our spirit but rather has to do with God's presence.

Jesus died spiritually or was separated from His Father before He died physically.

Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?'' which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?''

At this point Jesus became sin. Why do I say this? Because Jesus became sin yet He never sinned. This tells me that sin is not what we do but rather a condition we are in. We are sin or natural beings without God presence in our lives.

When the bible talks about giving up our spirit it's just saying out physical life is ceasing to live. The word, spirit, in this use is pneuma as we see in the word, pneumatic like in pneumatic tools. Pneuma is energy or force generated by air in other words, living life. Life in itself is not the person just like a battery is not in itself a flashlight.

We find Stephen giving up his spirit which only means he died.

Acts 7:59-60 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.'' And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

It's important that we grasp the fact that God has a Son who was an anointed man.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ/anoited Jesus;

Whoever says that God did not have a true human Son, born a man, anointed of God, given the spirit without measure, is liar and antichrist.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the anointed? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Eternal life is bound you in the understanding that there is a one true God and He has a Son.

John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Many blessings to you all,
John

[barryrob]

Hello to you all,

My name is John, I have not been the forum for a while. I'm not a JW but I don't believe the trinity doctrine to be true. To believe that God has come down to us in human flesh is nothing new.

Acts 14:10-11 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.

The foundation of the trinity doctrine being that God is three co-eternal, co-equal persons is something that has been formulated by man. Scripture have to be twisted and sometimes changed to fit this mindset.

We really need to allow the scriptures to speak for themselves and let God direct us in His truth.

One topic that I see being referred to is the death of Jesus.

All this talk of the immortal soul, physical death Vs spiritual death has been perverted with pagan influences.

There is only one who has immortality and that is the one true God.

1 Timothy 6:16 God alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

We who believe and obey until the end will receive our immorality at the first resurrection.

Romans 2:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

1 Cor. 15:52-54 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

To understand spiritual death only means that we are separated from God's fellowship. It has nothing to do with our spirit but rather has to do with God's presence.

Jesus died spiritually or was separated from His Father before He died physically.

Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?'' which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?''

At this point Jesus became sin. Why do I say this? Because Jesus became sin yet He never sinned. This tells me that sin is not what we do but rather a condition we are in. We are sin or natural beings without God presence in our lives.

When the bible talks about giving up our spirit it's just saying out physical life is ceasing to live. The word, spirit, in this use is pneuma as we see in the word, pneumatic like in pneumatic tools. Pneuma is energy or force generated by air in other words, living life. Life in itself is not the person just like a battery is not in itself a flashlight.

We find Stephen giving up his spirit which only means he died.

Acts 7:59-60 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.'' And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

It's important that we grasp the fact that God has a Son who was an anointed man.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ/anoited Jesus;

Whoever says that God did not have a true human Son, born a man, anointed of God, given the spirit without measure, is liar and antichrist.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the anointed? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Eternal life is bound you in the understanding that there is a one true God and He has a Son.

John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Many blessings to you all,
John

Nice Post John. I will be looking forward to read what else you have to say.
Barryrob