To drive or not to drive

[stevencarrwork]

It is interesting to see how Holding deals with contradictions.

In http://www.tektonics.org/JPH_WRE.html

(TILL quoting the Bible)
And Joshua said unto the children of Israel, Come hither, and hear the words of Yahweh your God. And Joshua said, Hereby ye shall know that the living God is among you, and that he will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Hivite, and the Perizzite, and the Girgashite, and the Amorite, and the Jebusite.

How does Holding cope with the fact that the Jebusites were not driven out, although the LORD said HE (not the Israelites) would drive them out?


I love Holding's explanation 'The sin of even one of the people is enough to guarantee military non-success.'

So when the Israelites had military success, we have it on the word of Holding that none of them had sinned :-)

And Holding skates over the total lack of evidence in the Bible for what he claims 'It may be argued that no sin is specified in these texts; to which we reply, it is not needed -- once again, we cannot assume our graphocentric prejudices upon an oral culture.' Holding states he does not need evidence.


Can you imagine what Sherbear would say, if a sceptic claimed that there was nothing in the Bible to back him up, but he didn't need anything to back him up??? It doesn't bear thinking about.

But back to the Book of Joshua .... 'But the LORD said HE would drive the Jebusites out, and HE would do so without fail.....

[jpholding]

So when the Israelites had military success, we have it on the word of Holding that none of them had sinned

Oh. Stevie is a remarkable person. He's obviously not been able to go for a few hours without sinning. Even a day or two. And without repenting, I would add.

And he's also been able to not sin for weeks, months.

What a remarkable guy! Maybe he needs something better to do like answer my Gym challenge to him. :brow:

[Solly]

Deu 11:22 For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him;
Deu 11:23 Then will the LORD drive out all these nations from before you, and ye shall possess greater nations and mightier than yourselves.

Jos 23:11 Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the LORD your God.
Jos 23:12 Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, [even] these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you:
Jos 23:13 Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out [any of] these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

You may recall it was one sin of Achan that scuppered their military attack on Ai, after Jericho.

Why don't people read the Bible?

[Faramir]

Today @ 11:14 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=84147#post84147)
Solly:

Deu 11:22 For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him;
Deu 11:23 Then will the LORD drive out all these nations from before you, and ye shall possess greater nations and mightier than yourselves.

Jos 23:11 Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the LORD your God.
Jos 23:12 Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, [even] these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you:
Jos 23:13 Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out [any of] these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

You may recall it was one sin of Achan that scuppered their military attack on Ai, after Jericho.

Why don't people read the Bible?

Hey Solly, I think Stevencarrwork already knew that. Not only is it in the Bible, it is also in JP's article that stevencarrwork linked to:


The sin of even one of the people is enough to guarantee military non-success. The sin of one man, Achan (Josh. 7), nearly ruined the campaign against Ai. It may be argued that no sin is specified in these texts; to which we reply, it is not needed -- once again, we cannot assume our graphocentric prejudices upon an oral culture. The example of Achan was enough to show that violation of the rules of war laid down by Yahweh was sufficient to ensure military failure

So Stevencarrwork either intentionally misrepresented JP when he (SCW) said:


So when the Israelites had military success, we have it on the word of Holding that none of them had sinned

OR, he didn't read further than the sentence he (SCW) quoted.

[qutoe]'The sin of even one of the people is enough to guarantee military non-success.'[/quote]

Either way it is a misrepresentation of JP's article.

[stevencarrwork]

Yesterday @ 05:33 PM Faramir:


So Stevencarrwork either intentionally misrepresented JP when he (SCW) said:

OR, he didn't read further than the sentence he (SCW) quoted.

[qutoe]'The sin of even one of the people is enough to guarantee military non-success.'

Either way it is a misrepresentation of JP's article. [/QUOTE]

Holding wrote 'The sin of even one of the people is enough to guarantee military non-success'

I think Faramir should try some basic logic.

A is enough to guarantee B does not happen, means that if B happened, then A could not have happened.

If Mr. X's postings were the result of impeccable logic, that would guarantee he would not make big blunders.

So if Mr. X's postings have big blunders, this means that he has not used impeccable logic. (I refrain from naming Mr. X)

Holding wrote 'The sin of even one of the people is enough to guarantee military non-success'

So if military success has happened, then not one person sinned..... (according to Holding's logic), unless God regards some sins as being more heinous than other sins, which is what I think Holding was getting at.

Holding wrote 'The sin of even one of the people is enough to guarantee military non-success'


Perhaps Faramir himself should read the next sentence of Holding's

'The sin of one man, Achan (Josh. 7), nearly ruined the campaign against Ai'.

In one sentence , Holding says there was a GUARANTEE of non-success, and in the next sentence he himself gives an example where the campaign did not fail. Nearly ruined, is not the same as ruined. Joshua 7 gives a casualty rate of about 1 percent - not exactly a overwhelming defeat, and then the Israelites took Ai.

This is no more a failure than Jesus taking two attempts to heal a blind man in Mark 8.

Sin did not guarantee failure for Joshua's army. The effect could be redeemed.


As Solly said ,read the Bible :-

Joshua 8 'When Israel had finished killing all the men of Ai in the fields and in the desert where they had chased them, and when every one of them had been put to the sword, all the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it. Twelve thousand men and women fell that day-all the people of Ai. For Joshua did not draw back the hand that held out his javelin until he had destroyed all who lived in Ai.'

Joshua 23 , as quoted by Solly, is an interesting chapter. His advice to read the Bible is well noted.


It says 'You know with all your heart and soul that not one of all the good promises the LORD your God gave you has failed. Every promise has been fulfilled; not one has failed.'

Does Faramir agree that all the good promises the LORD gave were fulfilled, and that not one had failed?

A simple 'no' will do.

[stevencarrwork]

Yesterday @ 04:14 PM
Solly:

Deu 11:22 For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him;
Deu 11:23 Then will the LORD drive out all these nations from before you, and ye shall possess greater nations and mightier than yourselves.

Jos 23:11 Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the LORD your God.
Jos 23:12 Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, [even] these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you:
Jos 23:13 Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out [any of] these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

You may recall it was one sin of Achan that scuppered their military attack on Ai, after Jericho.

Why don't people read the Bible?

Interesting that you should think the sin of one person means that God will cancel his promises and not drive out any more of these peoples.

http://www.tektonics.org/JPH_WRE3-2.html

Holding states that if you break the commandments, the punishment will last only for one battle.


'It is a continued misrepresentation to say that we argued that "the behavior of one Israelite" was a condition in the way this is implied. Here is what was actually said: "What I actually said was, with reference to Achan and the loss at Ai, 'The sin of even one of the people is enough to guarantee military non-success.' This is not the same as saying that the sin of even one of the people is sufficient to withhold the promises as a whole.'

So the promises were still in effect, says Holding. Ai took two attempts because of sin, but it is misrepresentation of his view to think that affected the promises as a whole.

(Holding happily argues both sides of a case, if it suits him)

So why were the Israelites not able to drive out the Jebusites, according to some bits of the Bible, while other bits say that ALL the promises were fulfilled.

Nothing to do with sin, according to Holding's article.

[Faramir]

Today @ 02:40 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=85494#post85494)
stevencarrwork:

Holding wrote 'The sin of even one of the people is enough to guarantee military non-success'

I think Faramir should try some basic logic.

I think SCW should try some reading comprehension lessons.

You quote one sentence out of an article by JP, and use it to misrepresent JP's position. I provide the rest of the paragraph, and you still misrepresnt JP's position (and JP, please feel free to correct me if I too am misrepresenting your position)

I'll quote it again. I will even put the part you are missing in bold so you will be sure to see it:


The sin of even one of the people is enough to guarantee military non-success. The sin of one man, Achan (Josh. 7), nearly ruined the campaign against Ai. It may be argued that no sin is specified in these texts; to which we reply, it is not needed -- once again, we cannot assume our graphocentric prejudices upon an oral culture. The example of Achan was enough to show that violation of the rules of war laid down by Yahweh was sufficient to ensure military failure

You see SCW, JP was not saying that just any sin would cause Isrealite defeat, but one occurance of a particular type of sin (violation of the rules of war laid down by Yahweh was sufficient to ensure military failure)


Today @ 02:40 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=85494#post85494)
stevencarrwork:

A is enough to guarantee B does not happen, means that if B happened, then A could not have happened.

There is no problem with my logic SCW. If JP had meant what you said he meant, then I would agree with your "logic". But your A, is a misrepresentation of JP's position. The problem lies with either 1) Your poor reading comprehinsion skills 2) Your intentional misrepresentatoin of JP's position or 3) some combination of both.

This is not the first time we have had this conversation. In fact I see a pattern:

SCW: JP is wrong becasue he said.......
Faramir: No SCW JP said this......
JP: You are correct Faramir, I did say this......

I can provide links if you like.

It seems one of us has a problem understanding JP's writing. Since the other one dosen't then I guess the fault is not JP's.


Today @ 02:40 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=85494#post85494)
stevencarrwork:

If Mr. X's postings were the result of impeccable logic, that would guarantee he would not make big blunders.

So if Mr. X's postings have big blunders, this means that he has not used impeccable logic. (I refrain from naming Mr. X)

Holding wrote 'The sin of even one of the people is enough to guarantee military non-success'

:huh:

Now I am the one who is having reading comprehension problems. You say you "refrain from naming Mr. X". I thought by Mr. X you meant JP Holding, but then your very next word was Holding. Guess I missed that one.:doh:


Today @ 02:40 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=85494#post85494)
stevencarrwork:
So if military success has happened, then not one person sinned..... (according to Holding's logic), unless God regards some sins as being more heinous than other sins, which is what I think Holding was getting at.

Holding wrote 'The sin of even one of the people is enough to guarantee military non-success'

Perhaps Faramir himself should read the next sentence of Holding's.

'The sin of one man, Achan (Josh. 7), nearly ruined the campaign against Ai'.

Perhaps SCW himself should read the two sentences after that, so he could understand what JP was really trying to say.


It may be argued that no sin is specified in these texts; to which we reply, it is not needed -- once again, we cannot assume our graphocentric prejudices upon an oral culture. The example of Achan was enough to show that violation of the rules of war laid down by Yahweh was sufficient to ensure military failure


Today @ 02:40 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=85494#post85494)
stevencarrwork:

In one sentence , Holding says there was a GUARANTEE of non-success, and in the next sentence he himself gives an example where the campaign did not fail. Nearly ruined, is not the same as ruined. Joshua 7 gives a casualty rate of about 1 percent - not exactly a overwhelming defeat, and then the Israelites took Ai.

It is called reading things in context. You should try it some time.


Today @ 02:40 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=85494#post85494)
stevencarrwork:

This is no more a failure than Jesus taking two attempts to heal a blind man in Mark 8.

Sin did not guarantee failure for Joshua's army. The effect could be redeemed.


As Solly said ,read the Bible :-

Joshua 8 'When Israel had finished killing all the men of Ai in the fields and in the desert where they had chased them, and when every one of them had been put to the sword, all the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it. Twelve thousand men and women fell that day-all the people of Ai. For Joshua did not draw back the hand that held out his javelin until he had destroyed all who lived in Ai.'

Joshua 23 , as quoted by Solly, is an interesting chapter. His advice to read the Bible is well noted.


It says 'You know with all your heart and soul that not one of all the good promises the LORD your God gave you has failed. Every promise has been fulfilled; not one has failed.'

Does Faramir agree that all the good promises the LORD gave were fulfilled, and that not one had failed?

A simple 'no' will do.


A simple no would do if 1) this were a simple yes or no question and 2) if no were in fact my answer.

The simple answer is 'yes', all of the good promises the Lord gave were fulfilled. Of course some of those promises were conditional, if the conditions were not met, then the proper "fulfillment" would be the Lord not granting what He promised.

I will make it simple for you. I make the following promise to my child:

If you clean up your room, I will let you have a bowl of icecream.
If you do not clean up your room you will not get a bowl of icecream.

My child does not clean up their room, they do not get any icecream. Was the promise fullfilled? A simple yes will do.

[jpholding]

Faramir is right as usual. Stevie (PWS) Carr does have a bad habit of bad reading.

For an example see the thread I started in the Janitor's Cloest.

Be sure and also see Till's Gaffe of the Week #2.