Jesus&TheThousandYears

[Hitch]

Jesus spoke of the Kingdom more than any other subject. Many expect that Kingdom to mean his bodily presence on the earth as a geo-pollitical leader for 1,000 years.

Please produce from the Scriptures , Jesus Christ describing, defining and/or predicting a temporal kingdom.

Hitch

[efta777]

The 'evidence' for those who believe in a rapture is not mainly found in the words of Christ, but elsewhere in the New Testament, and some in the old. Are you limiting it to ONLY the words of Christ?

[Hitch]

The 'evidence' for those who believe in a rapture is not mainly found in the words of Christ, but elsewhere in the New Testament, and some in the old. Are you limiting it to ONLY the words of Christ? I think you got your threads mixed up.. Quoting Christ, in matters he actually spoke of, should form the basis of any 'Christian' doctrine. As we who are called by his name respect him as the primary teacher,prophet, and especially interpreter of the Scriptures. So for this thread quotes from Christ should make up the primary core of the post anything else should be in direct support of our Lord's recorded Word.

I appreciate your interest in maintaining the aim of the thread.

I think I will add something to the Suggestion Box wrt thread originators wishes being respected, if such is not already somewhere in the rules. Since anyone is free to open a thread say, Pre Trib Raptue Adherents Only the originator should ,by courtesy alone, be allowed to narrow the responses, as those in opposition can open a dedicated thread as well.


take care

Hitch

[Lizard]

Hitch:

I appreciate your interest in maintaining the aim of the thread.

I think I will add something to the Suggestion Box wrt thread originators wishes being respected, if such is not already somewhere in the rules. Since anyone is free to open a thread say, Pre Trib Raptue Adherents Only the originator should ,by courtesy alone, be allowed to narrow the responses, as those in opposition can open a dedicated thread as well.


Hitch


I think you are referring to rule #7 found here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=924#post924) . Which says:

7. Please respect the wishes of the thread starter to keep a thread on topic when requested.

There is also a "Liberal Arts" forum specifically designated for, non debate type discussion.

Hope this helped.

[efta777]

I think you're right, I meant that for the Jesus/rapture thread. Sorry

[Hitch]

Faramir:
I think you are referring to rule #7 found here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=924#post924) . Which says:

7. Please respect the wishes of the thread starter to keep a thread on topic when requested.

There is also a "Liberal Arts" forum specifically designated for, non debate type discussion.

Hope this helped. Yup.

H

[Hitch]

efta777:
I think you're right, I meant that for the Jesus/rapture thread. Sorry So lets see whether my defences are up to the challenge.

H

[Hitch]

Wouldnt you think something that is used as a basis for interpreting Scripture from Ezzy to the Rev would have some support from Jesus?


Hitch

[Darth Xena]

I am interested in what proof may be offered. Hitch, though, you may get more takers if this was moved to the Dispensationalism section. It could fit in either, but I think you would get a wider response there.

[Hitch]

Dee Dee Warren:
I am interested in what proof may be offered. Hitch, though, you may get more takers if this was moved to the Dispensationalism section. It could fit in either, but I think you would get a wider response there. Doesnt matter to me.


Seriously I reckon they just wont go out on a limb ,,they are as used too 'official' backup as we are to 'offical' indifference or even intolerence. It new territory for them and they lack the scholarly 'big guns' to fall back on as well... Who would put Hal up against Chilton? Or Lew against Ossie?

Take care


Hitch

[Carl Smuda]

Hitch:
Jesus spoke of the Kingdom more than any other subject. Many expect that Kingdom to mean his bodily presence on the earth as a geo-pollitical leader for 1,000 years.

Please produce from the Scriptures , Jesus Christ describing, defining and/or predicting a temporal kingdom.

Hitch Hitch, I don't like the way you set this up. Yes Jesus spoke of the Kingdom more than any other subject. I read somewhere that that was His Master Thought. But the only time the canon speaks of the thousand years was written a generation after His death, right? The "many" who expect literal millennial kingdom on earth formed that belief with many sources way beyond the four Gospels of the NT. What point are you making by asking for discriptions of this by primarily Christ's recorded words alone? Any passage I might scrape up where Christ refers to sitting on thrones, or judging them like goats and sheep, and the like; aren't you going to demonstrate another way of looking at it?
sincerely,
Carl

[Hitch]

Christ's recorded words alone? Any passage I might scrape up where Christ refers to sitting on thrones, or judging them like goats and sheep, and the like; aren't you going to demonstrate another way of looking at it?
sincerely,

Thats exactly the point Carl. I reckon we'll agree that the majority view wrt the Kingdom and Messiah was held by the Pharisees, literalist to a man. Yet interpreting the various Kingdom passages Jesus never supports a temporal institution. Nieither does He even hint as some other future physical manifestation. And who is a better interpreter of OT Scriptures?

Jesus also spke plainly to fact that it is to our advantage, that he not be on earth physically. This must be addressed by those claiming for all to be well requires his physical presence.


Jesus also plainly statred that he had accomplished all the workd he was sent to do by God.

So here Jesus is speaking, and three times in a row on important issues what he actually said is contrast to DF doctrines and/or expectations. And must be answered from a source on par.

Take care


Hitch

[joelkaki]

Hitch is not saying here that we can only look at red words to define doctrine. His point, which I think is a valid one, is that since Christ spoke of the kingdom so much, there should be at least ONE quote about a temporal earthly kingdom. However, the clear words of Christ are--"My kingdom is not of this world."


Joel

[Darth Xena]

Exactly. There is absolutely no proof that Jesus offered an earthly geopolitical Kingdom, in fact, affirmatively spoke against it.

[Darth Xena]

And I still have my "end of the age" chronology in another thread which no premill has been able to defeat. Solly is working on a reponse, but he is amill and that will not solve the problem whatsover for premill adherents (and I will win Solly over LOL).

[Carl Smuda]

All points are not unreasonable here. I accept these points as wonderfully valid. Hitch, Joel, and Dee Dee alike. God Bless and blessed be Him!

But, we have this point of view from letters written after the Gospels. And I will be the very first to loudly remind us all that those letters ARE revelation from the Lord Jesus Christ. My prejudices would even put the Church Epistles on a higher plain than the Gospels.

That said, Without the church letters the Gospels do fit into the historical context of the ancient Jewish beliefs. Day of the Lord, and then Messianic Kingdom. It is not Jesus or the Pharisees & Sadducess or Lord Jesus' followers who are departing from classical premill, it is us, starting, what?, 300 years after the Lord's earthly ministry.

Dee Dee, the proof that Jesus offered an earthy geopolitical kingdom can only come from the historical understanding that prevailed when He was teaching.

Okay, granted that this is maybe some argument from silence, but remember that it is equally true that there is no evidence that Jesus offered a nonearthly nongeopolitical kingdom. There is every reason to recognize our Lord Jesus's millennial teachings within the Jewish context. :read:

[joelkaki]

Jesus clearly said in John 18:36--"My kingdom is not of this world."


Joel

[joelkaki]

DeeDee, where is your thread about the end of the age chronology?


Joel

[Carl Smuda]

Joel,
I forgot about that one. Thank you. It was a life changing evening when I looked up the word for 'world' in John 18:36. My world needed that word to be "age", not "Cosmos." And that really rocked it. It was sort of..."darn. I NEED that word to be "age." Nertz! Now what do I do?"
Thanks Joel,
God Bless you in the name of our Lord.
sincerely,
Carl :cheers:

[Darth Xena]

Joel, you beat me to it!! Jesus resisted any attempts to make Him an earthly king and affirmatively denied an earthly Kingdom. Carl just consider this... Heaven is God's Throne, not the earth. The Earth is His footstool. He is currently on the divine throne, why in the world would He leave that to reign on the footstool? The Messianic Kingdom is the heavenly reality behind the representative prior earthly kingdom of Israel, just as the heavenly Temple which we now approach, is the reality. We tend to want to view what is on earth as what is real, yet God pulls the proverbial drapes aside and gives us a glimpse of the heavenly realities which are what is truly real.

Also, to just try an argue within the expectations of the day is dangerous....many did not expect a suffering Messiah, and modern Jews will still use that argument to deny the reality of Christ today.

[Darth Xena]

Joel here is the end of the age link:

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=2554#post2554

[Carl Smuda]

I am having technical difficulties getting into this forum. Is it the NMCI system I work on at work or is it something coming from Theology Community? I dunno, but that's why I'm using Quick Reply. The Post-Reply button causes fatal error.

Dee Dee, Jesus did not "affirmatively denied an earthly Kingdom." What you said is beautiful. I take it to heart and will keep it in mind because it is beautiful. But I don't think it's fair to summarize all that can be found in the Gospels as Christ denying an earthly kingdom. If it was that clear there wouldn't be putzes like me questioning statements like that. If the Lord had made it as clear as you say then why did it take 300 years for the Church to dismiss classical premillennialism?

sincerely,
Carl

[Reba]

Rom 14:17
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
KJV


Is there another scripture that tell us just what the KINGDOM is? A scripture or group of scriptures as direct as this one?:huh:





Carl i had some troubles getting here also:argh:

[Carl Smuda]

There are lots of juicy verses that mention Christ's "Master Thought" But I lost years of data when we switched computer systems last summer so I'd have to re-build that one.

[Hitch]

Carl Smuda:
I am having technical difficulties getting into this forum. Is it the NMCI system I work on at work or is it something coming from Theology Community? I dunno, but that's why I'm using Quick Reply. The Post-Reply button causes fatal error.

Dee Dee, Jesus did not "affirmatively denied an earthly Kingdom." What you said is beautiful. I take it to heart and will keep it in mind because it is beautiful. But I don't think it's fair to summarize all that can be found in the Gospels as Christ denying an earthly kingdom. If it was that clear there wouldn't be putzes like me questioning statements like that. If the Lord had made it as clear as you say then why did it take 300 years for the Church to dismiss classical premillennialism?

sincerely,
Carl But I don't think it's fair to summarize all that can be found in the Gospels as Christ denying an earthly kingdom. If it was that clear there wouldn't be putzes like me questioning statements like that

I'll wager you have never looked at the 'Millennium' or 'Kingdom ' passages through t elens of 'My Kingdom is not of this world'.

In fact I'll take another step,,, I reckon you're on the verge of a Lew Wallace...

take care

Hitch

[Reba]

Carl Smuda:
There are lots of juicy verses that mention Christ's "Master Thought" But I lost years of data when we switched computer systems last summer so I'd have to re-build that one.


Carl The only data needed is in the WORD and if yours is lost there are many free BIBLES on the web sheesh there is even one at the bottom of this page. :angel:

[Darth Xena]

Dear Carl:

I cannot explain why the church holds to error for long periods of time, but posters here have brought forth multiple affirmative denials of an earthly kingdom. Jesus never held out hope of a literal kingdom in the premill sense. Additionally, and you know this is where I am coming from, the timing chronology of the NT makes premill impossible on other grounds. The kingdom is undeniably now. And Carl... I appreciate your gentle spirit. I don't tell you that enough.

[Reba]

Reba:



Carl The only data needed is in the WORD and if yours is lost there are many free BIBLES on the web sheesh there is even one at the bottom of this page. :angel:



Sorry Carl my sarcasm gets the better of me too often.
What seems to be a smile to me at the time, when reread is like over the edge sarcasm.

From direct straight forward scripture are there any more defining as to what and where the Kingdom is then ;

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

and the the words of the KING HIMSELF:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

[Darth Xena]

Reba, that was gracious of you to offer that apology.

[Carl Smuda]

Dee Dee Warren:
Joel, you beat me to it!! Jesus resisted any attempts to make Him an earthly king and affirmatively denied an earthly Kingdom. Carl just consider this... Heaven is God's Throne, not the earth. The Earth is His footstool. He is currently on the divine throne, why in the world would He leave that to reign on the footstool? The Messianic Kingdom is the heavenly reality behind the representative prior earthly kingdom of Israel, just as the heavenly Temple which we now approach, is the reality. We tend to want to view what is on earth as what is real, yet God pulls the proverbial drapes aside and gives us a glimpse of the heavenly realities which are what is truly real.

Also, to just try an argue within the expectations of the day is dangerous....many did not expect a suffering Messiah, and modern Jews will still use that argument to deny the reality of Christ today. I have to repeat that this is an exceptonal post to me. I see many beautiful and amazing things here. I think you may have actually cracked something in my hard thinking here, Dee Dee. Several hours later my thoughts were still returning to this thought here. That the Messianic Kingdom is the heavenly reality behind the representative prior earthly kingdom of Israel, just as the heavenly Temple which we now approach, is the reality. This is something to think about. That He went to prepare a place for us...

Reba,
no worries. I can dig the humor. God Bless!

[Darth Xena]

Wow, Carl thanks!! That is so encouraging.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

I think the best way to look at this is... wait, what the? EEEEEK!!! A ZOMBIE THREAD!!!!!!

[Mickey]

The kingdom is undeniably now.
Dee Dee,

If the kingdom is here now why is not the Lord Jesus sitting on His own throne instead of the throne of His Father?:

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne" (Rev.3:21).

I know that you use Daniel 7:9 to say that in heaven there is more than one throne,but that still does not explain the fact that He Himself said that now He is sitting in the Father's throne and not in His own.

As the Lord says,those who overcome will sit with Him in His throne.And those sitting with Him in His throne will reign upon the earth,just as He will:

"And hast made us unto our God a kingdom of priests: and we shall reign on the earth" (Rev.5:10).

Since Christians will be reigning upon the earth and they will be sitting in the throne of the Lord Jesus then common sense tells us that His throne will also be on the earth.

The thone in which the Lord Jesus will rule will be on earth,as the following verses demonstrate:

" At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem"(Jer.3:17).

" It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there"(Ez.48:35).

" And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places"(Ez.43:7).

In Christ,
Mickey