Explaining the Trinity to a Muslim...

[Spiritus Naturae]

Can anyone give me an assist on this one...? I am conversing with a group of muslims on PalTalk and this is a big point of contention for them it would seem. I am explaining it all worng I'm sure. I am trying to point out to them that the nature of Gods oneness is explained and clarified by the trinity. They like to throw in, "1+1+1=3" and I try to show them that its more like, "1x1x1=1". Any advice would be appreciated.

[Soundsurfr]

Can anyone give me an assist on this one...? I am conversing with a group of muslims on PalTalk and this is a big point of contention for them it would seem. I am explaining it all worng I'm sure. I am trying to point out to them that the nature of Gods oneness is explained and clarified by the trinity. They like to throw in, "1+1+1=3" and I try to show them that its more like, "1x1x1=1". Any advice would be appreciated.
Sorry, can't help ya. Seems like 1+1+1=3 to me, too.

[Sparko]

Spritus,

here are a couple of resourse that might help you with the trinity.

http://home.att.net/~scott.lisa.sutherland/Fingerprints.html

http://www.saveme.org/articles/trinity.htm

(the last one is also posted on tweb at:
http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=703400&postcount=2 <-part 1
http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=703402&postcount=3 <- part 2

Hope it helps.

But, just like any other theological debate, arguing the trinity is pretty much impossible if they are not willing to listen. Instead of trying to understand, they may be just listening with an ear to find a chink in your analogy, and since no analagy is perfect, you can easily get into discussing the imperfections of the analogy rather than the trinity itself.

[Spiritus Naturae]

Spritus,

here are a couple of resourse that might help you with the trinity.

http://home.att.net/~scott.lisa.sutherland/Fingerprints.html

http://www.saveme.org/articles/trinity.htm

(the last one is also posted on tweb at:
http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=703400&postcount=2 <-part 1
http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=703402&postcount=3 <- part 2

Hope it helps.

But, just like any other theological debate, arguing the trinity is pretty much impossible if they are not willing to listen. Instead of trying to understand, they may be just listening with an ear to find a chink in your analogy, and since no analagy is perfect, you can easily get into discussing the imperfections of the analogy rather than the trinity itself.

Thank you, brother John. :thumb:

[rasha]

Peace and mercy from Allah be upon you,
This is a very good oppourtunity to tell you how Quran envisions Jesus and his mother Marry peace be upon them.
Also the verses will tell you how God Glory be to him is.

Transaltion of verse number 116,117 in suraht number2
They say: "Allah hath begotten a son": Glory be to him - Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him.
To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: when he decreeth a matter, he saith to it: "Be", and it is.
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Transalation of verses number 135,136 in surhat number 2
They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (to salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham, the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."
Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma`il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to Allah (in Islam).
---Comment ----
"and the revelation given to us" ----- means to Muhammed
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Translation of surhat number 3 verses from 33 to 67:
"Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of Imran above all people,
Offspring, one of the other: and Allah heareth and knoweth all things
Behold a woman of Imran said: O my Lord I do dedicate unto thee what is in my womb for thy special service: so accept this of me: for thou hearest and knowest all things.
When she was delivered, she said: O my Lord behold I am delivered of a female child and Allah knew best what she brought forth and nowise is the male like the female. I have named her Mary, and I commend her and her offspring to thy protection from the evil one, the rejected.
Right graciously did her Lord accept her: he made her grow in purity and beauty: to the care of Zakariya was she assigned. Every time that he entered (her) chamber to see her, he found her supplied with sustenance. He said: O Mary whence (comes) this to you? she said: from Allah: for Allah provides sustenance to whom he pleases, without measure.
There did Zakariya pray to his Lord, grant unto me from thee a progeny that is pure: for thou art he that heareth prayer
While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him: Allah doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya, witnessing the truth of a word from Allah, and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a prophet, of the (goodly) company of the righteous
He said: O my Lord how shall I have a son, seeing I am very old, and my wife is barren? thus, was the answer, doth Allah accomplish what he willeth.
He said: O my Lord give me a sign thy sign, was the answer, shall be that thou shalt speak to no man for three days but with signals. Then celebrate the praises of thy Lord again and again, and glorify him in the evening and in the morning.
Behold the angels said: O Mary Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee chosen thee above the women of all nations.
O Mary worship thy Lord devoutly: prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down.
This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which We reveal unto thee (O Prophet) by inspiration: thou wast not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary: nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the point).
Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;
He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous.
She said: "O my Lord! how shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: when He hath decreed a Plan, He but saith to it, 'Be', and it is!
"And Allah will teach him the book and wisdom, the law and the gospel,
"And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): I have come to you, with a sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: and I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
" '(I have come to you), to attest the law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.' "
" 'It is Allah who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a way that is straight.' "
When Jesus found unbelief on their part he said: who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah? said the disciples: we are Allah's helpers: we believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
"Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger; then write us down among those who bear witness."
And (the Unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah."
Behold Allah said: O Jesus I will take thee and raise thee to myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith, to the day of resurrection: then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
As to those who reject Faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help
As to those who believe and work righteousness, Allah will pay them (in full) their reward; but Allah loveth not those who do wrong
This is what we rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the message of wisdom
The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; he created him from dust, then said to him: Be: and he was.
The truth (comes) from Allah alone; so be not of those who doubt.
If any one disputes in this matter with thee, now after (full) knowledge hath come to thee, say: come let us gather together, our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie!
This is the true account: there is no god except Allah he is indeed the exalted in power, the wise.
But if they turn back, Allah hath full knowledge of those who do mischief.
Say: O People of the Book come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, lords and patrons other than Allah. If then they turn back, say ye: bear witness that we (at last) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's will)
Ye People of the Book why dispute ye about Abraham, when the law and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? have you understanding?
Ah ye are those who fell to disputing (even) in matters of which ye had some knowledge but why dispute ye in matters of which ye have no knowledge? it is Allah who knows, and ye who know not
Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's, (which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah"
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Translation of verses number 171 and 172 in suraht number 4 :
"O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one God: glory be to him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs."
Christ disdaineth not to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain his worship and are arrogant, he will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).
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Translation of verses 100, 101,102, 103 in suraht number 6
"Yet they make the Jinns equals with Allah, though Allah did create the Jinns; and they falsely, having no knowledge, attribute to him sons and daughters. Praise and glory be to him (for he is) above what they attribute to Him!
To him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: how can he have a son when he hath no consort? he created all things, and he hath full knowledge of all things.
That is Allah, your Lord! There is no god but He, the Creator of all things: then worship ye Him: and He hath power to dispose of all affaires.
No vision can grasp him, but his grasp is over all vision: he is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things.
Trnslation of verse 68 in surhat 10
They say, Allah hath begotten a son glory be to him he is Self-Sufficient his are all things in the heavens and on earth no warrant have ye for this say ye about Allah what ye know not?
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Translation of verse number 39 and 40 in Suraht number 12:
"O my two companions. Of the prison (I ask you): are many lords differing among themselves better, or the one Allah, supreme and Irresistible?"
"If not him, ye worship nothing but names which ye have named, ye and your fathers, for which Allah hath sent down no authority: the command is for none but Allah: he hath commanded that ye worship none but him: that is the right religion, but most men understand not"
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Translation of verse 111 in surhat number 17
Say: praise be to Allah, who begets no son, and has no partner in (his) dominion: nor (needs) he any to protect him from humiliation: yea, magnify him for his greatness and glory
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Trnslation of verses from 4 and 5 to in surhat 18:
Further, that he may warn those (also) who say, Allah hath begotten a son:
No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers. It is a grievous thing that issues from their mouths as a saying. What they say is nothing but falsehood
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Translation of suraht number 19 from verse 16 to 40
"Relate in the Book (The story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family To a place in the east.
She placed a screen (To screen herself) from them; then we sent to her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
She said: I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah.
He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son."
She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that non man has touched me and I am not unchaste?"
He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'That is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us:' It is a matter (so) decreed."
So she conceived him, And she retired with him to a remote place.
And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk Of a palm tree: She cried (in her anguish): Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!
But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm tree): grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;
And shake towards thyself The trunk of the palm tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.
So eat and drink And cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see Any man, say, I have Vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious, and this day Will I enter into no talk With any human being
At length she brought The (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: O Mary! Truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not A man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!
But she pointed to the babe. They said: How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?
He said: I am indeed A servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me A prophet;
And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, And hath enjoined on me prayer and Charity as long As I live;
(He) hath made me kind To my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
So peace is on me The day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!
Such (was) Jesus the son Of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
It is not befitting To (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to him! when he determines a matter, He only says To it, be, and it is.
Verily Allah is my Lord And your Lord: him therefore serve ye: this is a way that is straight.
But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the Unbelievers because Of the (coming) Judgment Of a momentous Day!
How plainly will they see And bear, the day that they will appear before us! but the unjust to day Are in error manifest!
But warn them of the day of Distress, when The matter will be determined: for (behold), they are negligent And they do not believe!
It is we who will inherit the earth, and all beings thereon: to us will they all be returned."
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Translation of verses 88 to 95 in surhat 19
"They say: (Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!
Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth To split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious.
For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that he should beget a son.
Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (Allah) Most Gracious as a servant.
He does take an account of them (all), and hath numbered them (all) exactly.
And everyone of them Will come to him singly on the day of Judgment.
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Translation of verse from 26 to 29 in surhat 21
And they say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten offspring." Glory to Him! They are (but) servants raised to honour.
They speak not before He speaks, and they act (in all things) by His command.
He knows what is before them, and what is behind them, and they offer no intercession Expect for those who are acceptable, and they stand in awe and reverence of His (glory).
If any of them should say, I am a god besides him, such a one we should reward with Hell: thus do We reward those who do wrong.
Translation of verses 91 and 92 number in surhat 23
No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods) behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to Allah! (He is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to Him!
He knows what is hidden and what is open: too high is He for the partners they attribute to Him!
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Translation of verse 4 in surhat 39
Had Allah wished to take to Himself a son, He could have chosen whom He pleased out of those whom He doth create: but Glory be to Him. (He is above such things. ) He is Allah, the one, the Irresistible.
Translation of vers number 11 in surhat 42
(He is) the Creator of the heavens and the earth: He has made for you pairs from among yourselves, and pairs among cattle: by this means does He multiply you: there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees (all things).
Translation of verse 81, 82 in surhat 43
Say: If (Allah) Most Gracious had a son, I would be the first to worship
Glory to the Lord of the heavens and the earth, the Lord of the Throne (of Authority)! (He is free) from the things they attribute (to Him)!
Translation of surhat number 112
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.
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Comment --------------------------------------------------
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Finally I would like to tell you that I believe in searching the truth, It is not because a person is borned and
found himself/herself attached to a certain religion then he/she must believes this religon is the truth and
because of this I searched the truth and while searching the truth I set a rule to me that I had never and will never
give it up which is that:
"the one which I will worship must be above all and has the ability to do every and anything"
and all this I found in Allah as in Islam
He is ---> there is nothing whatever like unto Him
---> when he decreeth a matter, he saith to it: "Be", and it is.
---> are many lords differing among themselves better, or the one Allah, supreme and Irresistible?"

Thanks a lot

[TuckEverlasting]

Spirit, I find this passage by jpholding particularly helpful in understanding the trinity. I hope others do as well.

From: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=262499&postcount=7

... I have been saying, that theos is not a proper name. The proper name of the Jewish god was YHWH. We have turned theos into a proper name, God, which causes confusion when reading ancient texts, especially Trinitarian ones. Someone who hears the Nicean Creed's "The Father is God" thinks we are saying something like, "Joe is Fred" when we are actually saying "Joe is red".

JP's point (for language geeks :wink:) is that the word 'God' is more properly a mass noun (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=mass+noun) rather than a proper noun (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=proper+noun&x=14&y=7).

So, if you think of it this way, saying 'the Father is God' is analogous to saying 'the Father is spirit'. Saying 'Jesus is God' is analogous to saying 'Jesus is spirit'. Hence, there really is no conflict between the statements 'the Father is God' and 'Jesus is God'. You might as well say that there is a conflict between the statements 'the Atlantic ocean is water' and 'the Pacific ocean is water'. After all, they can't both be water, right? :duh:

But, just like any other theological debate, arguing the trinity is pretty much impossible if they are not willing to listen.

Quite. Keep this one in mind, or you'll tear your hair out. :wink:

[Spiritus Naturae]

Spirit, I find this passage by jpholding particularly helpful in understanding the trinity. I hope others do as well.

From: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=262499&postcount=7



JP's point (for language geeks :wink:) is that the word 'God' is more properly a mass noun (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=mass+noun) rather than a proper noun (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=proper+noun&x=14&y=7).

So, if you think of it this way, saying 'the Father is God' is analogous to saying 'the Father is spirit'. Saying 'Jesus is God' is analogous to saying 'Jesus is spirit'. Hence, there really is no conflict between the statements 'the Father is God' and 'Jesus is God'. You might as well say that there is a conflict between the statements 'the Atlantic ocean is water' and 'the Pacific ocean is water'.



Quite. Keep this one in mind, or you'll tear your hair out. :wink:


Thank ya, Tuck :wink:

[Rushing Jaws]

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=724583

Can anyone give me an assist on this one...? I am conversing with a group of muslims on PalTalk and this is a big point of contention for them it would seem.

## You could ask your pastor or minister to pray for them and you :smile: As for the "point of contention", that's because the Koran rejects any notion that God has a Son - "God is One", is basic to Islam. Anything that prejudices that, is impermissible.

One book I've found very good is this one, by the English Methodist Geoffrey Parrinder (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1851680942/qid=1096076288/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-3405404-2656962?v=glance&s=books) - he suggests that the divide between Christians and Muslims on quite a few thorny issues may not be quite as unbridgeable as it seems. Including this. ##

I am explaining it all worng I'm sure. I am trying to point out to them that the nature of Gods oneness is explained and clarified by the trinity. They like to throw in, "1+1+1=3" and I try to show them that its more like, "1x1x1=1". Any advice would be appreciated.

## I think this is a question to answer in several stages :smile:

One idea that I find helpful - which may be no help for a Christian talking to Muslims - is to think about what is meant by saying "God is love". What do these words imply ? What realities do they shed light on ?

One difficulty for the Christian is, that the Trinity is essentially a mystery; which means that we are meddling in something "far above" us - we can only talk about it at all, because Jesus Christ is our window on it. This is a difficulty with talking to Muslims - they don't seem to have much time for mystery :smile: They're too reasonable, in a way; but the Love of God in Jesus Christ is not reasonable - it's gracious, all through :smile: :smile: :smile: Grace is *not* reasonable - it is reasonable only in a very paradoxical way; it is unreasonable, unexpected, "unfair" to love and to pray for one's enemies. But to do so, is also an illustration of the Love of God; and perhaps the Love of God is a route we can take so as to to see something of what, or Who, the Triune God is.

AFAICS, where there is love, there is a Lover, a Beloved, and the Love between them - or: the Father loves the Son - the Son Loves the Father - the Spirit is the Love uniting them

What is love ? IMO, we love, when we express a desire for something other than the self alone; IOW, to love, is to reach out from the being one is, to other beings - whether that other being is a potted plant, a job, one's wife, a teddy bear, or God Almighty. Anything that not me, that I reach out to, that I "go out of myself" towards with desire for it, is something that I can be described as loving. IMO that is a basic way of outlining what love is; to put it another way - love is self-transcendence. And perfect loving, implies complete pouring out of the Lover into the Beloved - perfect self-communication, perfect reception, perfect return of Love. And it also implies perfect enjoyment of the thing or person being loved.

IOW, the Father gives Himself totally, freely, unreservedly, unstoppably, unceasingly, in the fullness of all that He is and does, to the Son. And the Son gives Himself, equally as fully, to the Father. The Father is "able" to love in this total manner, because the "Son" is capable of receiving and returning this Love in the same total manner. The Father "goes out of Himself" to the Son, and the Son "goes out of Himself" to the Father. How come ? Because the Love by which they love, is as total and unbounded and immeasurable and all those other things, as they are. Each person receives the others infinitely.

The more we love, the more love we are able to pour out, and the more we are able to receive, so that we are more and more enriched the more we seek to give away what we receive. This suggests that, in God, Who loves infinitely, something analogous "goes on"; it suggests a way of glimpsing how the unceasing self-giving of the Divine Persons is inexhaustible.

How is this of relevance to us ? If this way of seeing things is at all valid, it can illustrate the Cross. And the Cross seems to be as much of a scandal to Muslims, as it was to Jew and Greek in the first century. It's unreasonable - it's gracious - it's paradoxical. But, it is the greatest possible revelation of the character of God there is. Because nowhere is the love of God poured out so generously, as on the Cross. The Cross shows us what God is really like. It shows us a God Who loves sacrificially. And that means that love can be sacrificial - that it is. So it is very practical - it is not clever words or kind thoughts or inspiring ideas, good as these are; it is something that can cost life itself.

The Cross shows us the God-man pouring out His life for us, doing us nothing but good, loving us unconditionally, and not saying He loves us (anyone can say that) but actually doing so. And, by seeing what His love is like to us, we can get an idea of how He loves the Father, and of how the Father loves Him, and of the Love that is theirs. The love of Jesus Christ for mankind, is a sort of moving image in time and space of the eternal love which is in God; a representation of God's "interior life" which is "dumbed down" for the benefit of our very limited minds and wills and hearts, so that we can see, however imperfectly, what God is really like. Because we are trying to do something analogous to describing a pyramid as though it were a line between two points - no single analogy will match what the Trinity is; so we have to use lots of comparisons that, if we put them all together, would not fit. The Kingdom of Heaven is a pearl of great price - yet it is among us. It is compared to a seed, or tree - a pearl is not a tree. Both are pictures for something bigger and fuller and better than they are. So with comparisons for the Trinity, or for any assertion about God; none of them is a perfect fit, all of them limp, yet all can show us something of the Reality they point to. Which is again why Jesus Christ is so helpful as a revelation of God.

"Love", as the saying goes, "spreads itself around" - it gives itself. It communicates itself - just as a forest fire does. A fire does not blaze away happily and stay where it is - it spreads by consuming what it burns, and throws out sparks which are like it in nature, each of them a potential blaze itself. And when it has blazed and consumed, it spreads by blazing and consuming, so that the more it blazes and consumes, the hotter and more fervent it gets. If there were a blazing and infinite and eternal ocean of flame which never ceased to burn with the greatest intensity, we would have the glimmer of a comparison to the love of God. If there were three flames like this, we would have a sort of picture of the Love of the Divine Persons. Although all comparisons limp, perhaps it is of some help in illustrating the closeness of the communion of the Father, and Son and Holy Spirit.

Christian faith is not a conjuring trick with numbers, it is not an attempt to make things that don't add up, add up. It is not a contradiction in terms that a child of six can see through; it is what the God of Christian faith Who is revealed in Jesus Christ Our Lord, is really like. The One God is so infinitely rich in Love, that He is threefold in personality. To put it the way other round: because God is threefold in personality, God is "summed up" in the phrase "God is Love".

Because the Trinity is a mystery, "understanding the Trinity" will always be impossible - we are created, so we cannot receive the uncreated totality of Who God Is into our hearts; only in Jesus Christ is the Presence of God present fully, in its full radiance - and before He suffered, it was seen only at the Transfiguration. In the end, the only response to the Trinity, is to worship. And if the Fire of Love Who is God burns in us, we will be able to return love for Love. Loving the Father through the Son in the Spirit can be done only by doing it. But reason alone is no good at all. :smile:

Hope this is some use :smile: ##

[heaven]

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=724583



## You could ask your pastor or minister to pray for them and you :smile: As for the "point of contention", that's because the Koran rejects any notion that God has a Son - "God is One", is basic to Islam. Anything that prejudices that, is impermissible.

One book I've found very good is this one, by the English Methodist Geoffrey Parrinder (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1851680942/qid=1096076288/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-3405404-2656962?v=glance&s=books) - he suggests that the divide between Christians and Muslims on quite a few thorny issues may not be quite as unbridgeable as it seems. Including this. ##



## I think this is a question to answer in several stages :smile:

One idea that I find helpful - which may be no help for a Christian talking to Muslims - is to think about what is meant by saying "God is love". What do these words imply ? What realities do they shed light on ?

One difficulty for the Christian is, that the Trinity is essentially a mystery; which means that we are meddling in something "far above" us - we can only talk about it at all, because Jesus Christ is our window on it. This is a difficulty with talking to Muslims - they don't seem to have much time for mystery :smile: They're too reasonable, in a way; but the Love of God in Jesus Christ is not reasonable - it's gracious, all through :smile: :smile: :smile: Grace is *not* reasonable - it is reasonable only in a very paradoxical way; it is unreasonable, unexpected, "unfair" to love and to pray for one's enemies. But to do so, is also an illustration of the Love of God; and perhaps the Love of God is a route we can take so as to to see something of what, or Who, the Triune God is.

AFAICS, where there is love, there is a Lover, a Beloved, and the Love between them - or: the Father loves the Son - the Son Loves the Father - the Spirit is the Love uniting them

What is love ? IMO, we love, when we express a desire for something other than the self alone; IOW, to love, is to reach out from the being one is, to other beings - whether that other being is a potted plant, a job, one's wife, a teddy bear, or God Almighty. Anything that not me, that I reach out to, that I "go out of myself" towards with desire for it, is something that I can be described as loving. IMO that is a basic way of outlining what love is; to put it another way - love is self-transcendence. And perfect loving, implies complete pouring out of the Lover into the Beloved - perfect self-communication, perfect reception, perfect return of Love. And it also implies perfect enjoyment of the thing or person being loved.

IOW, the Father gives Himself totally, freely, unreservedly, unstoppably, unceasingly, in the fullness of all that He is and does, to the Son. And the Son gives Himself, equally as fully, to the Father. The Father is "able" to love in this total manner, because the "Son" is capable of receiving and returning this Love in the same total manner. The Father "goes out of Himself" to the Son, and the Son "goes out of Himself" to the Father. How come ? Because the Love by which they love, is as total and unbounded and immeasurable and all those other things, as they are. Each person receives the others infinitely.

The more we love, the more love we are able to pour out, and the more we are able to receive, so that we are more and more enriched the more we seek to give away what we receive. This suggests that, in God, Who loves infinitely, something analogous "goes on"; it suggests a way of glimpsing how the unceasing self-giving of the Divine Persons is inexhaustible.

How is this of relevance to us ? If this way of seeing things is at all valid, it can illustrate the Cross. And the Cross seems to be as much of a scandal to Muslims, as it was to Jew and Greek in the first century. It's unreasonable - it's gracious - it's paradoxical. But, it is the greatest possible revelation of the character of God there is. Because nowhere is the love of God poured out so generously, as on the Cross. The Cross shows us what God is really like. It shows us a God Who loves sacrificially. And that means that love can be sacrificial - that it is. So it is very practical - it is not clever words or kind thoughts or inspiring ideas, good as these are; it is something that can cost life itself.

The Cross shows us the God-man pouring out His life for us, doing us nothing but good, loving us unconditionally, and not saying He loves us (anyone can say that) but actually doing so. And, by seeing what His love is like to us, we can get an idea of how He loves the Father, and of how the Father loves Him, and of the Love that is theirs. The love of Jesus Christ for mankind, is a sort of moving image in time and space of the eternal love which is in God; a representation of God's "interior life" which is "dumbed down" for the benefit of our very limited minds and wills and hearts, so that we can see, however imperfectly, what God is really like. Because we are trying to do something analogous to describing a pyramid as though it were a line between two points - no single analogy will match what the Trinity is; so we have to use lots of comparisons that, if we put them all together, would not fit. The Kingdom of Heaven is a pearl of great price - yet it is among us. It is compared to a seed, or tree - a pearl is not a tree. Both are pictures for something bigger and fuller and better than they are. So with comparisons for the Trinity, or for any assertion about God; none of them is a perfect fit, all of them limp, yet all can show us something of the Reality they point to. Which is again why Jesus Christ is so helpful as a revelation of God.

"Love", as the saying goes, "spreads itself around" - it gives itself. It communicates itself - just as a forest fire does. A fire does not blaze away happily and stay where it is - it spreads by consuming what it burns, and throws out sparks which are like it in nature, each of them a potential blaze itself. And when it has blazed and consumed, it spreads by blazing and consuming, so that the more it blazes and consumes, the hotter and more fervent it gets. If there were a blazing and infinite and eternal ocean of flame which never ceased to burn with the greatest intensity, we would have the glimmer of a comparison to the love of God. If there were three flames like this, we would have a sort of picture of the Love of the Divine Persons. Although all comparisons limp, perhaps it is of some help in illustrating the closeness of the communion of the Father, and Son and Holy Spirit.

Christian faith is not a conjuring trick with numbers, it is not an attempt to make things that don't add up, add up. It is not a contradiction in terms that a child of six can see through; it is what the God of Christian faith Who is revealed in Jesus Christ Our Lord, is really like. The One God is so infinitely rich in Love, that He is threefold in personality. To put it the way other round: because God is threefold in personality, God is "summed up" in the phrase "God is Love".

Because the Trinity is a mystery, "understanding the Trinity" will always be impossible - we are created, so we cannot receive the uncreated totality of Who God Is into our hearts; only in Jesus Christ is the Presence of God present fully, in its full radiance - and before He suffered, it was seen only at the Transfiguration. In the end, the only response to the Trinity, is to worship. And if the Fire of Love Who is God burns in us, we will be able to return love for Love. Loving the Father through the Son in the Spirit can be done only by doing it. But reason alone is no good at all. :smile:

Hope this is some use :smile: ##

=====================================================


In Luke 1: 26-35, the entire Trinity is involved in the Incarnation of Jesus.

The angel Gabriel announces that Mary has found favor with God the Father.

By means of the Holy Spirit will come upon you and The Most High will

over shadow you. Holy Spirit and God the Father.

And you, Mary shall bear a son and shall call Him Jesus." He will be great a
and will be called Son of the Most High".

Furthermore the visit with Elizabeth and the path of Mary are the same

path tred with the Ark of the Covenant. Thus by allegory, Luke asserts that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. The Ark of the Covenant
was the resting place of the God of the Israelites. By analogy, Mary is
the Ark of the God of the Israelites in Jesus.

Hence, there is One God, three separate Divine Natures.

[moonlight3]

Explanation of concept of Trinity to Muslims:

You believe that God is present: God the Father

You believe that God creates: God the Son (creates by His Word)

You believe that God is alive, not a dead object: God the Holy Spirit. The living God has a spirit, The Holy Spirit

Of course Christians believe in ONE GOD, it is the first thing said in the Creed. Three in one and one in three. If you deny the Holy Spirit, then you deny that God is a living God. If you deny Jesus, then you deny that God is the creator of all things, seen and unseen. Jesus is the Word of God. The Koran itself says that Jesus is a Word from Him; Him referring to God the Father, and Word referring to God the Son, the Word.

Simplest way to make you understand is the triangle, it has three sides.
Another: The sun: There is the Sun Disk, We know the presence of the Sun through the Light, and we feel the presence of the sun by its Heat. To render the explanation of Trinity nearer to the human perception, the Sun Disk represent the Father, the Light represent The Son, Jesus Christ, and the Heat of the Sun, represent the Holy Spirit, all three are one.


Re The Holy Spirit: is mentioned repeatedly in the Koran (Spirit of God) as in 2:81, 253; 4:171; 16:102.

Re Jesus in Koran

1. Borne with no human seed, who else was like that? Adam, well, was created by God from mud. Jesus was a Spirit from God

2. Jesus himself created: He held mud and blow into it and it turned a bird

3. Koran says that: Jesus was not crucified but it appeared to them as if he was. Many interpretations to this verse, depending on what the commentator want to convey. Well, here it is for you: He was not killed because how can they kill God, but they thought they triumphed over him, thinking they ended his mission being hanged on the Cross. But how can you kill God! It was an illusion as far as they were concerned, that is the meaning. There is nothing in the Koran that somebody else was crucified in his place, just attempts of interpretation by different commentators.

[jason]

Can anyone give me an assist on this one...? I am conversing with a group of muslims on PalTalk and this is a big point of contention for them it would seem. I am explaining it all worng I'm sure. I am trying to point out to them that the nature of Gods oneness is explained and clarified by the trinity. They like to throw in, "1+1+1=3" and I try to show them that its more like, "1x1x1=1". Any advice would be appreciated.
Put the argument aside and don't try to argue it.

I would wager that it is largely pointless to pursue such an argument with them.

It might be more reasonable to note that if Christ is divine, but Christ is distinct from the father then the trinity is true, regardless of whether or not the analogy makes it clear.

That the trinity is difficult to understand, or that it is imperfectly captured by an analogy, does not mean it is not the case, all it means is that it is difficult to understand and is imperfectly captured by an analogy.

If anything the trinity should give them pause to consider that the revelation in the bible is in fact divine because mere men would not have come up with such a difficult to understand concept.

Jason

[watsup]

Can anyone give me an assist on this one...? I am conversing with a group of muslims on PalTalk and this is a big point of contention for them it would seem. I am explaining it all worng I'm sure. I am trying to point out to them that the nature of Gods oneness is explained and clarified by the trinity. They like to throw in, "1+1+1=3" and I try to show them that its more like, "1x1x1=1". Any advice would be appreciated.

Sorry to come on so much later, Spiritus Naturae.

watsup's contribution to you, for your discussion on "Trinity" with any Muslim or non-Muslims.

1. The word "Trinity" is not found in any English Bible.

2. God's Bible is however very clear that He has revealed Himself in His dealings with humans as God, God the Father, God the Son Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit.

3. And, the Bible is God's word - on its track record of, among others, its prophecies fulfilled.

4. As to what God is truly like - e.g."three-in-one like a clover leaf", "ice-water-vapour" or whatever else are mere imperfect explanations.

5. For the Bible and commonsense would tell us that God would not want us to know EXACTLY what He is, yet - for very good reasons.

6. What God has revealed in His word through Moses in Deuteronomy 29:29 "The secret things belong to unto LORD our God; but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law."

7. It is therefore the business and to the interest of all humans to act on what God has so far revealed of Himself to humankind in His Bible. Which would include, among others, that God has revealed Himself as being God the Father, God the Son Jesus Christ, God the Spirit.

8. Any human who MUST know what exactly God is like will have to wait until He reveals to that human or humankaind what He is EXACTLY like.

9. And, should this be still not acceptable to that person, watsup would advise that person to apply to God in triplicate for His permission to that person to go for a 2,000 ft or more parachute jump without parachute, so that he or she could be fast tracked to meeting God (on the premise that this person has prior checked and is sure that he or she will after landing, get to see Him.

10. watsup's speculation on a reason God has in His wisdom kept His EXACT make-up unknown to humans - that whatever humans know however much or little, humans will want to engineer and control.

11. That is, by His revealing what He is EXACTLY like to humans, now - "He will have to shoot all humans".

12. What God is EXACTLY like, is SECRET, for now.

[barnasha]

2. God's Bible is however very clear that He has revealed Himself in His dealings with humans as God, God the Father, God the Son Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit.


can you cite one (and only one) such reference from the Roman-compiled holy book?


5. For the Bible and commonsense would tell us that God would not want us to know EXACTLY what He is, yet - for very good reasons.

6. What God has revealed in His word through Moses in Deuteronomy 29:29 "The secret things belong to unto LORD our God; but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law."

7. It is therefore the business and to the interest of all humans to act on what God has so far revealed of Himself to humankind in His Bible. Which would include, among others, that God has revealed Himself as being God the Father, God the Son Jesus Christ, God the Spirit.


Paul, whom you are apparently referring to, never said that. Nor did he ever even meet Jesus.

Of course your ideas are also originating out of Rome, Nicean council.

Pretty big jump there from ineffable to ... confused


12. What God is EXACTLY like, is SECRET, for now.

So not necessarily 3-part or 10-part...

since that of course would

a) negate the only core concept of Abrahamic theology
b) contradict the teachings of the Jews and their creed "God is one", which Jesus also taught
c) not be part of any "biblical" teaching, explicitly.

any bible quotes which your camp likes to use to try to support their opinion are cherry picked out of a large selection out of which many clearly contradict it.

[watsup]

can you cite one (and only one) such reference from the Roman-compiled holy book?

Paul, whom you are apparently referring to, never said that. Nor did he ever even meet Jesus.

Of course your ideas are also originating out of Rome, Nicean council.

Pretty big jump there from ineffable to ... confused

So not necessarily 3-part or 10-part...

since that of course would

a) negate the only core concept of Abrahamic theology
b) contradict the teachings of the Jews and their creed "God is one", which Jesus also taught
c) not be part of any "biblical" teaching, explicitly.

any bible quotes which your camp likes to use to try to support their opinion are cherry picked out of a large selection out of which many clearly contradict it.

Tell readers here why watsup should answer your questions henceforth that you, BARNASHA, had UNFAILINGLY 'WAFFLED" to evade EVERY question watsup posed to YOU, BARNASHA?

Though watsup is both thankful and sad for your every 'WAFFLING".

Thankful, as your "waffling" only served to show yet again why you had been 'waffling". You had been "waffling" EXACTLY like how ALL other trained covert Muslims who had been sent to other forums 'waffled" because any and every answer you and other other trained covert Muslims give MUST expose the lie in your Islam's allah, Mohammed, Islam, Quran and you.

Thankful too, for EVERY of the "'waffling-type'counter questions" posed by EVERY of these TRAINED COVERT MUSLIMS had been a very opportunity for serious Christians to so truthfully expose, to the extent that EVERY of these expertly trained covert Muslims in EVERY other forum hd appeared before others to have been "PLUMMELLED" under Christian truths.

Sad for every "waffling" from every of these exposed expertly trained covert Muslim - because their "waffling" are expertly trained "waffling" taught by specialists in their Islam religious specialist classes and field camps - for Muslims who are found by their superiors to be well suitable for specialist training before they are deployed in forums to advance evil Islam's allah's cause.

Which means that you are a determined covert Muslim determined to do the evil work of your Satanic Islamis allah - and to join him and his Mohammed and all covert and overt Muslims in that future eternal Lake of Fire, of heat infinitely higher than that is used to cook waffles.

You will understand why watsup will, henceforth, also "waffle" on your every question? And you will why also understand why watsup will continue to plummel your "waffling" counter questions, minus your name?

Yes, or no?

You may proceed your "waffling", again.

PS: Your charges against Paul - which further expose you being an expertly trained covert Muslim sent by your trainer and handlers to operate under the cover of "Realist (and not Muslim)" in this forum. Wonderful (really, WONDERFUL) stuff - for "plumelling" with truths under new "waffling-style". You will have to pay more attention though, as your cover name "barnasha" will not appear in watsup's posts after this - until after you have proven yourself to answer without "waffling" serious questions.

[barnasha]

Tell readers here why watsup should answer your questions henceforth that you, BARNASHA, had UNFAILINGLY 'WAFFLED" to evade EVERY question watsup posed to YOU, BARNASHA?

Though watsup is both thankful and sad for your every 'WAFFLING".


I figure you'd be more thankful if I played your games and answered your loaded questions.

Fortunately, I have better things to do than to intellectually play with myself such as you are wont to do with your meaningless questions.

Answer us this, watsup, why does every semblance of an "argument" you make consist of logic so weak - sorry, lack of any logic or reasoning whatsoever - that it must be presented in the form of a loaded question?

You think if you make 10 or 20 "questions" it will confuse us enough so as to think there really WAS some rational argument there?

Notice those who really have points to make don't have to us smoke and mirrors, they speak plainly and honestly, they are not proud, they are very intelligent and contribute to the edification of all of us here.

If this forum is like a city, you are behaving like the town drunk.

I have never spoken with someone who is so ungenuine and dishonest. Why don't you be humble and truthful and have a pleasant discussion?

I don't answer play questions.

Don't "waffle out" of trying to properly communicate your ideas by saying that those who don't answer your loaded questions are "waffling out of answering them" - it is you who would be waffling out of making a clear point, that is, properly communicating.


You have a lot of passion and that's good. Make sure it doesn't get in the way of properly forming your arguments.

I hope we can have a discussion going forward, but if it is to be profitable for us, we need to respect each other and take care to communicate properly. We both have to try harder.

[watsup]

Originally posted by watsup
Tell readers here why watsup should answer your questions henceforth that you, BARNASHA, had UNFAILINGLY 'WAFFLED" to evade EVERY question watsup posed to YOU, BARNASHA?

Though watsup is both thankful and sad for your every 'WAFFLING".

====================

Response from "waffling artist" of a trained covert Muslims (=== with reply from he who busts and plummels "waffling artist"===):

I figure you'd be more thankful if I played your games and answered your loaded questions.

(=== Pathetic rantings from a much plummelled specially trained covert Muslim, indeed. So plummelled and terrified that he does not know that probing questions into "Islamic truths" are always loaded questions - in that any truthful answering of those loaded questions MUST EXPLODE "Islamic truths", to EXPOSE AND DAMN the LIES and the EVIL beneath these "Islamic truths.===)

Fortunately, I have better things to do than to intellectually play with myself such as you are wont to do with your meaningless questions.

(=== Yah, like going back to the training centres for further training in "waffling" - perhaps, to return to produce waffles with lies-and-lice-laden ice cream toppings ===)

Answer us this, watsup, why does every semblance of an "argument" you make consist of logic so weak - sorry, lack of any logic or reasoning whatsoever - that it must be presented in the form of a loaded question?

(=== Waffle-style: What lice-lies-laden- ice cream topping might you think your advance course trainers might be teaching you, sorely needing further training waffling-artist, covert Muslim? ===)

You think if you make 10 or 20 "questions" it will confuse us enough so as to think there really WAS some rational argument there?

(=== Waffle-style: What might the 10 or 20 "questions your trainers might ask you for having to need further waffling training? ===)

Notice those who really have points to make don't have to us smoke and mirrors, they speak plainly and honestly, they are not proud, they are very intelligent and contribute to the edification of all of us here.

(=== Waffle-style: Notice what? Please cite your primary sources to justify your making the statement you just made. ===)

If this forum is like a city, you are behaving like the town drunk.

(=== Waffles-style: This forum is like a city? Like Mecca, like Kuala Lumpur - where their Islamic clerics dollop lice-and-lies laden toppings on the waffles they serve to world media agencies? Yes? No? Why? ===)

I have never spoken with someone who is so ungenuine and dishonest. Why don't you be humble and truthful and have a pleasant discussion?

(=== No waffling here: See, another pathetic rant from a trained covert operator for he who is the DIAMETIC opposite to He who is truly God. That what is genuine to such a trained covert operator and his allah HAS to be ungenuine and dishonest, and etc etc.===)

I don't answer play questions.

(===No waffling here: Any what are non-play questions, HAVE TO BE play questions.====)

Don't "waffle out" of trying to properly communicate your ideas by saying that those who don't answer your loaded questions are "waffling out of answering them" - it is you who would be waffling out of making a clear point, that is, properly communicating.

(=== Waffles style: the sun rsies from the east and sets in the west. Mind telling readers clearly where it rises next after west? ===)

You have a lot of passion and that's good. Make sure it doesn't get in the way of properly forming your arguments.

(===Waffle-style: You are also a halal motivation trainer? A halal personal or a halal corporate trainer? Where? ===)

I hope we can have a discussion going forward, but if it is to be profitable for us, we need to respect each other and take care to communicate properly. We both have to try harder.

(=== Semi-waffle-style:

(Waffle?) Define hope and kindly furnish your formal qualifications to qualify you to speak about hope.

(Loaded question): Hope that the evil and the lies and the violence in the true-islam of true-islam's allah will be truly exposed, thrashed and trashed?

(Loaded question): Or hope that the evil and the lies and the violence in the true-islam of true-Islam's allah will not be exposed, thrashed and trashed?

(Unloaded question): Or hope in that all which true-Islam of true-Islam's allah want to convey as Holy truths from God will be believed to be and followed as God's Holy Truths?

Mind answering the unloaded question? ===)

[barnasha]

Was there anything specifically you are trying to say with the above response? Other than attack my character?

If you want to talk about me, I would prefer not respond. I can give you my personal email and you can redirect your complaints there so the rest of the forum can have a break from this noise.

[watsup]

Originally posted by watsup
Tell readers here why watsup should answer your questions henceforth that you, BARNASHA, had UNFAILINGLY 'WAFFLED" to evade EVERY question watsup posed to YOU, BARNASHA?

Though watsup is both thankful and sad for your every 'WAFFLING".

====================

Response from "waffling artist" of a trained covert Muslims (=== with reply from he who busts and plummels "waffling artist"===):

I figure you'd be more thankful if I played your games and answered your loaded questions.

(=== Pathetic rantings from a much plummelled specially trained covert Muslim, indeed. So plummelled and terrified that he does not know that probing questions into "Islamic truths" are always loaded questions - in that any truthful answering of those loaded questions MUST EXPLODE "Islamic truths", to EXPOSE AND DAMN the LIES and the EVIL beneath these "Islamic truths.===)

Fortunately, I have better things to do than to intellectually play with myself such as you are wont to do with your meaningless questions.

(=== Yah, like going back to the training centres for further training in "waffling" - perhaps, to return to produce waffles with lies-and-lice-laden ice cream toppings ===)

Answer us this, watsup, why does every semblance of an "argument" you make consist of logic so weak - sorry, lack of any logic or reasoning whatsoever - that it must be presented in the form of a loaded question?

(=== Waffle-style: What lice-lies-laden- ice cream topping might you think your advance course trainers might be teaching you, sorely needing further training waffling-artist, covert Muslim? ===)

You think if you make 10 or 20 "questions" it will confuse us enough so as to think there really WAS some rational argument there?

(=== Waffle-style: What might the 10 or 20 "questions your trainers might ask you for having to need further waffling training? ===)

Notice those who really have points to make don't have to us smoke and mirrors, they speak plainly and honestly, they are not proud, they are very intelligent and contribute to the edification of all of us here.

(=== Waffle-style: Notice what? Please cite your primary sources to justify your making the statement you just made. ===)

If this forum is like a city, you are behaving like the town drunk.

(=== Waffles-style: This forum is like a city? Like Mecca, like Kuala Lumpur - where their Islamic clerics dollop lice-and-lies laden toppings on the waffles they serve to world media agencies? Yes? No? Why? ===)

I have never spoken with someone who is so ungenuine and dishonest. Why don't you be humble and truthful and have a pleasant discussion?

(=== No waffling here: See, another pathetic rant from a trained covert operator for he who is the DIAMETIC opposite to He who is truly God. That what is genuine to such a trained covert operator and his allah HAS to be ungenuine and dishonest, and etc etc.===)

I don't answer play questions.

(===No waffling here: Any what are non-play questions, HAVE TO BE play questions.====)

Don't "waffle out" of trying to properly communicate your ideas by saying that those who don't answer your loaded questions are "waffling out of answering them" - it is you who would be waffling out of making a clear point, that is, properly communicating.

(=== Waffles style: the sun rsies from the east and sets in the west. Mind telling readers clearly where it rises next after west? ===)

You have a lot of passion and that's good. Make sure it doesn't get in the way of properly forming your arguments.

(===Waffle-style: You are also a halal motivation trainer? A halal personal or a halal corporate trainer? Where? ===)

I hope we can have a discussion going forward, but if it is to be profitable for us, we need to respect each other and take care to communicate properly. We both have to try harder.

(=== Semi-waffle-style:

(Waffle?) Define hope and kindly furnish your formal qualifications to qualify you to speak about hope.

(Loaded question): Hope that the evil and the lies and the violence in the true-islam of true-islam's allah will be truly exposed, thrashed and trashed?

(Loaded question): Or hope that the evil and the lies and the violence in the true-islam of true-Islam's allah will not be exposed, thrashed and trashed?

(Unloaded question): Or hope in that all which true-Islam of true-Islam's allah want to convey as Holy truths from God will be believed to be and followed as God's Holy Truths?

Mind answering the unloaded question? ===)

Wondering if trained waffling specialist covert Muslim will ever answer any of the above loaded and unloaded questions.