Anti-Torah Jesus is not the Messiah

[Goose]

Since Christianity's claims derive ultimately entirely from TN"K(Tanach - what Christians call the Hebrew Old Testament), Deuteronomy 13:1-5 explicitly precludes an anti-Torah Jesus as being the Messiah.

"If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee." -
Deu 13:1-5

[shunyadragon]

Since Christianity's claims derive ultimately entirely from TN"K(Tanach - what Christians call the Hebrew Old Testament), Deuteronomy 13:1-5 explicitly precludes an anti-Torah Jesus as being the Messiah.

"If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee." -
Deu 13:1-5
Thie is an interesting start of a thread and I will give my side simply without long Biblical quotes.

I believe Jesus was a very Jewish messiah and not Anti-Torah. He was a reformer and challenged contemporary Judaism on hypocrasy and over emphasis of following the law in a self-serving way. He also preached that the Jews must face a changing world and the heart of the Torah was not the blind following of antiquated social laws. Something that divides Judaism today.

It is absurd to follow antiquated social laws, but which ones do you follow?
In reality is blindly absurd to follow the Law of the Torah as it was completely today, How do you chose which laws to follow.

Christianity became distinctly Anti-Torah when it took on the Greco-Roman cloak of a world empire.

[Goose]

Shuny,

Those are interesting views, but in this thread I want to focus on the idea of many Christians, that Jesus was anti-Torah. An anti-Torah Jesus could not be the pro-Torah Jewish Messiah. Please start another thread with that topic.

[Bill the Cat]

Jesus was anti-torah?? :hrm: I've never heard that one :huh:


Matthew 5 (NASB)
17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

see also a few examples here:
http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jesusignorelaw.html

[bar Jonah]

Yeshua was anti-Torah? Nothing could be further from the truth. The Brit Hadashah describes Him as born under the Law, living according to the Law, preaching the Law as part of the path to eternal life along with faith. For in Israel's covenant relationship with God, either without the other will fail. Faith without works is dead, while works without faith... actually angered God in the books of the prophets so much that the Lord actually told Israel to stop making sacrifices for a while, because they were faithless and thus totally offensive to Him.

Anti-Torah? Listen to His words, and decide for yourself.



"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

[Jesus said,] "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

When He had come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed Him. And behold, a leper came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean."
Then Jesus put out His hand and touched him, saying, "I am willing; be cleansed." Immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
And Jesus said to him, "See that you tell no one; but go your way, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them."

At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, "Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!"
3But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him: 4how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless? 6Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple. 7But if you had known what this means, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

9 Now when He had departed from there, He went into their synagogue. 10And behold, there was a man who had a withered hand. And they asked Him, saying, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?" -- that they might accuse Him.
11Then He said to them, "What man is there among you who has one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out? 12Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." 13Then He said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." And he stretched it out, and it was restored as whole as the other.

Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"
17So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
18He said to Him, "Which ones?"
Jesus said, ""You shall not murder,' "You shall not commit adultery,' "You shall not steal,' "You shall not bear false witness,' 19"Honor your father and your mother,'and, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."'
20The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?"
21Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
37Jesus said to him, ""You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

[Jesus said,] "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do..."

[Jesus said,] "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone."

He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10For Moses said, "Honor your father and your mother'; and, "He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' 11But you say, "If a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban" --' (that is, a gift to God), 12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."

Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, "Which is the first commandment of all?"
29Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: "Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment. 31And the second, like it, is this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."
32So the scribe said to Him, "Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. 33And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."
34Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." But after that no one dared question Him.

Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. 15And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
16"The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. 17And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

[Jesus said,] "I do not receive honor from men. 42But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you -- Moses, in whom you trust. 46For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. 17If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. 18He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him. 19Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law. Why are you trying to kill me?"
20"You are demon-possessed," the crowd answered. "Who is trying to kill you?"
21Jesus said to them, "I did one miracle [healing], and you are all astonished. 22Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a child on the Sabbath. 23Now if a child can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing the whole man on the Sabbath? 24Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment."

Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. 15You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. 17It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. 18I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me."

But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, so I do. Arise, let us go from here.

"As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.


[Even in His death, His followers honored Him in keeping the commandments.]

Now behold, there was a man named Joseph, a council member, a good and just man. 51He had not consented to their decision and deed. He was from Arimathea, a city of the Jews, who himself was also waiting[15] for the kingdom of God. 52This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. 53Then he took it down, wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a tomb that was hewn out of the rock, where no one had ever lain before. 54That day was the Preparation, and the Sabbath drew near.
55And the women who had come with Him from Galilee followed after, and they observed the tomb and how His body was laid. 56Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

[Goose]

Shuny,

The very fact that you say Jesus kept Torah, but then reformed Torah, precludes him from being the Messiah, as stated in Deutoronomy 13. Torah is perfect, and never changes. Plus, you seem to not understand that the oral Torah and written Torah, are considered equal Torah.

[Timothy Leary]

Those are Goose's views as well.

Thie is an interesting start of a thread and I will give my side simply without long Biblical quotes.

I believe Jesus was a very Jewish messiah and not Anti-Torah. He was a reformer and challenged contemporary Judaism on hypocrasy and over emphasis of following the law in a self-serving way. He also preached that the Jews must face a changing world and the heart of the Torah was not the blind following of antiquated social laws. Something that divides Judaism today.

It is absurd to follow antiquated social laws, but which ones do you follow?
In reality is blindly absurd to follow the Law of the Torah as it was completely today, How do you chose which laws to follow.

Christianity became distinctly Anti-Torah when it took on the Greco-Roman cloak of a world empire.

[dizzle]

Each time I hear Goose go ahonking I realize that he rejected a caricature of faith when he apostasized since he so poorly represents sound doctrine in conversations.

[shunyadragon]

Those are Goose's views as well.I do not think these reflect Goose's beliefs. His posts reflect the following beliefs. Please comment or disagree if you feel these are wrong.

(1) Jesus did not fulfill any of the prophesies, therefore Christ was either simply a rebel reform leader using the Messiah claim to advance his agenda, a misguided and deluded messianic figure, or a con artist or sharliton that got caught by the authorities and condemned to death.

(2) The very fact that you say Jesus kept Torah, but then reformed Torah, precludes him from being the Messiah, as stated in Deutoronomy 13. Torah is perfect, and never changes. Plus, you seem to not understand that the oral Torah and written Torah, are considered equal Torah. Goose believes the Torah cannot be changed even by a messiah. This may be a claim that is inconcistent with Goose's other posts. It is most inconsistent with the history of Judaism itself.

[dizzle]

that all begs the question of what Torah really is

Jesus didn't claim to change it

and for the Messiah to claim to understand and be able to explain the Torah is perfectly Jewish

[shunyadragon]

Each time I hear Goose go ahonking I realize that he rejected a caricature of faith when he apostasized since he so poorly represents sound doctrine in conversations.
People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

I disagree often with goose, but I find this attack is not appropriate and does not contribute to the debate.

I find that most apologists poorly represent sound doctrine when it comes to presenting an accurate understanding of OT Hebrew and sometimes Greek, because of the agenda of the presuppositions required to cling to a literal innerent interpretation of the Bible.

Goose's understanding of OT Hebrew is much better than most apologists here.

[dizzle]

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones. People in debate fora shouldn't throw around cliches or be thin-skinned on someone else's behalf.

There was not one "glass house comment" in my post. I have not:

misrepresented sound doctrine of orthodoxy
apostasized

so if you are going to use trite sayings, please find one that at least applies like

if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all

:wah:

the "ahonking" part is something I used to joke with Goose about a long time ago for I have kknown Goose a loong time

so perhaps you should let others get offended for themselves and not do it for them

Goose is a big Goose who can stick up for himself

[Sacrificial Ram]

I do not think these reflect Goose's beliefs. His posts reflect the following beliefs. Please comment or disagree if you feel these are wrong.

(1) Jesus did not fulfill any of the prophesies, therefore Christ was either simply a rebel reform leader using the Messiah claim to advance his agenda, a misguided and deluded messianic figure, or a con artist or sharliton that got caught by the authorities and condemned to death.

(2) Goose believes the Torah cannot be changed even by a messiah. This may be a claim that is inconcistent with Goose's other posts. It is most inconsistent with the history of Judaism itself.
Well, to be the Jewish Messiah, there are some qualifications to be made

Qualifications





The successful candidate will have attributes that must include, but not necessarily be limited to, the following:



1. Be the seed (a direct descendant through the unbroken male line) of King David, through King Solomon (e.g., 2 Sam 7:12-16; Is 11:1; Jer 23:5, 30:9, 33:15; Ezek 34:23-24, 37:24)

2. Be a spiritual and military/political leader (e.g., Is 2:3, 11:2; Dan 7:14)

3. Be married and have children during his term (e.g., Ezek 46:16-17)







All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated



In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9)

There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy.

There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13).

Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings.



Doesn't sound like anybody qualifiies as of yet.

[shunyadragon]

Well, to be the Jewish Messiah, there are some qualifications to be made

Qualifications Your presuppositions for fulfilling these prophecies require some interpretations and understanding that would be Jewish or Christian. I assume a broader worldview and understanding of scripture of all religions. One point is I fell the Bible is writen by men from their point of view and far from infallable.

I also believe that there is a lineage of messiahs for the world. So all the prophesies will not be for Christ and some refer to more than one messiah. There is more than one Holy Book in the world that prophecied the coming of messiahs. I believe the prophecies of the religions of the world are fulfilled in a more realistic worldly terms and not the Messiah from heaven leading an army of angels on white horses, or everyone becoming saintly robots in white robes.

I agree that the Christian apologist have to duck and weave to get around these hurdles, but for me it is easy to make simple assumptions for a Jewish messiah and the times Christ lived that would be more in line with reality than trying to shoehorn Christ with axlegrease into a Greco-Roman Messiah God using the OT prophesies.

The successful candidate will have attributes that must include, but not necessarily be limited to, the following:

1.Be the seed (a direct descendant through the unbroken male line) of King David, through King Solomon (e.g., 2 Sam 7:12-16; Is 11:1; Jer 23:5, 30:9, 33:15; Ezek 34:23-24, 37:24)I have no problem with this one since probably a third or more of the Jewish people fit this geneology. The geneology in the Bible is at best incomplete and likely compiled by one or more incompetants in understanding Hebrew geneology.

2. Be a spiritual and military/political leader (e.g., Is 2:3, 11:2; Dan 7:14)I believe these prophecies may refer to the messiah of the last days and maybe more than one messiah. I may respond again on this one.

3. Be married and have children during his term (e.g., Ezek 46:16-17).A lot of missing years in Christ's life and the picture of his family portrayed in the limited references to his life in the Bible are sketchy at best and the traditional Christian version of his life very unreal. Mary Magdeline could very well be the wife of Jesus. The tall tales of mythical christianity of his mother Mary being a life long pure celibate virgin, while married to Joesph is a little hard to believe. I remember growing up as a Catholic and listening to the foolish duck, weave and dodge answers I got from the priests and nuns concerning this.

I believe Christ had brothers, sisters and likely a family with one or more children. I believe his children may have been sheltered in some secrecy for fear that they to may be killed. This is a realistic fear considering the circumstances.

All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated. The return from exile among the nations has been fulfilled and refers to another messiah of the last days and the days of Gentiles when the old world will pass away and a new world will replace it. I believe this is happening now.

In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9) Later age and messianic prophecy. The whole world, not all the people, will recognize the true God, but it won't be Jewish God speaking with a New York accent.

There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy.

There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13).Yeah! Right! People become robots in white robes and no longer human.

Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings. Assuming a literal interpretation of Ezekiel. Christians cannot explain this being caught between a rock and a hard place trying shoehorn their presuppositions concerning the sacrafice and the importance of the Bible being literal and innerent in these inconsistencies.

Doesn't sound like anybody qualifiies as of yet.Sure does not! Based on your criteria no one ever will.

Debate concerning the Jesus the Jewish messiah are probably best addressed in my thread. Goose's challenge is primarily challenging Christians saying Jesus is Anti-Torah and not a messiah at all.

[Timothy Leary]

that all begs the question of what Torah really is

Jesus didn't claim to change it

and for the Messiah to claim to understand and be able to explain the Torah is perfectly Jewish

What? How could Torah be... something other than Torah?

[Timothy Leary]

Goose is part of the "Netzarim" - see http://www.netzarim.co.il/

I do not think these reflect Goose's beliefs. His posts reflect the following beliefs. Please comment or disagree if you feel these are wrong.

(1) Jesus did not fulfill any of the prophesies, therefore Christ was either simply a rebel reform leader using the Messiah claim to advance his agenda, a misguided and deluded messianic figure, or a con artist or sharliton that got caught by the authorities and condemned to death.

(2) Goose believes the Torah cannot be changed even by a messiah. This may be a claim that is inconcistent with Goose's other posts. It is most inconsistent with the history of Judaism itself.

[dizzle]

I mean what it really is as in what it really means. An expectation of the Messiah would be that He would fully understand and explain the Torah - obviously that could easily mean that many teachers had misapplied and misinterpretred - and obviously whether christian or not (though I believe this indisputable proof of the truth of Christianity) there was a problem with the first century Jewish nation for God visited upon them (NOT Jews of all time) horrific judgment. Jesus of course said it would happen and why.

[shunyadragon]

Goose is part of the "Netzarim" - see http://www.netzarim.co.il/
I took a peak, but this will take a while to digest. I wil admit that at times I have had difficulty telling one Jewish doctrine from another without the program showing the batting averages and other stats.

This one looks a bit on the unorthodox side, except it probably claims to be the only orthodox true belief.

[learning]

Are all the Jewish persons here agreed with the definition of a Jewish Messiah put here?

[guacamole]

Assuming a literal interpretation of Ezekiel. Christians cannot explain this being caught between a rock and a hard place trying shoehorn their presuppositions concerning the sacrafice and the importance of the Bible being literal and innerent in these inconsistencies.


From what I can tell, if Goose is referencing the same scriptures that Jayrok and I have been going over, then Goose does not take those passages as literal, because the passages refer to a sin offering, not a thanksgiving offering. Either that or he isn't talking about ezekiel.

[Timothy Leary]

I took a peak, but this will take a while to digest. I wil admit that at times I have had difficulty telling one Jewish doctrine from another without the program showing the batting averages and other stats.

This one looks a bit on the unorthodox side, except it probably claims to be the only orthodox true belief.

I've heard it said that they have been approved of Sephardi Cheif Rabbanite Ovadiah Yossef, but have not been able to verify this.

[Timothy Leary]

Are all the Jewish persons here agreed with the definition of a Jewish Messiah put here?

I didn't look at those parts, sorry

[shunyadragon]

From what I can tell, if Goose is referencing the same scriptures that Jayrok and I have been going over, then Goose does not take those passages as literal, because the passages refer to a sin offering, not a thanksgiving offering. Either that or he isn't talking about ezekiel.
In my view the sacrafice in the OT refers to both atonement and thanksgiving offering.

There is no indication in prophecy or law in OT that the sacrifice will end at anytime in the future. There is not prophecy for a one time only messianic sacrifice. There is also the current interpretation among Jews today that the sacrifice cannot be continued until the temple is rebuilt. I am not sure that this is completely justified in the OT.

Different cultures all over the world show a tendency to end sacrificial rites as they mature and evolve.

[learning]

I didn't look at those parts, sorry


Well, do you have a definition of Jewish Messiah, and what he would do, and where you get scriptures to back this up? I wish to know how the 'Jewish' definition of Messiah differs from the Christian interpretation. Thanks!
You can look at and agree or disagree with what SacRam put on here.

[Centurion]

I would like to know how Jesus was in any way anti-Torah. He himself said that he came to fullfill the law, not to abolish it. Also when Goose first started this thread, he used scripture to support his idea that Jesus was a false prophet, because he "led us to other Gods". I don't see how he led us away from God. He didn't take anyone away from God, he opened the door, and showed the correct path. I pray everyone steps through that door on to it.

:smile:

[Pitiricus]

Thie is an interesting start of a thread and I will give my side simply without long Biblical quotes.

I believe Jesus was a very Jewish messiah and not Anti-Torah. He was a reformer and challenged contemporary Judaism on hypocrasy and over emphasis of following the law in a self-serving way. He also preached that the Jews must face a changing world and the heart of the Torah was not the blind following of antiquated social laws. Something that divides Judaism today.

It is absurd to follow antiquated social laws, but which ones do you follow?
In reality is blindly absurd to follow the Law of the Torah as it was completely today, How do you chose which laws to follow.

Christianity became distinctly Anti-Torah when it took on the Greco-Roman cloak of a world empire.
Actually Jesus couldn't be the messiah because he was a mamzer...

As simple as that!

[shunyadragon]

I would like to know how Jesus was in any way anti-Torah. He himself said that he came to fullfill the law, not to abolish it. Also when Goose first started this thread, he used scripture to support his idea that Jesus was a false prophet, because he "led us to other Gods". I don't see how he led us away from God. He didn't take anyone away from God, he opened the door, and showed the correct path. I pray everyone steps through that door on to it.

:smile:It was not Jesus of the Gospels that was Anti-Torah, but Paul, Constantine and the early church fathers that were anti-Torah.

[shunyadragon]

Actually Jesus couldn't be the messiah because he was a mamzer...

As simple as that!
I do not consider Jesus Christ a mamzer.

I would like to hear more.

[shunyadragon]

Are all the Jewish persons here agreed with the definition of a Jewish Messiah put here?
Which one?

[shunyadragon]

that all begs the question of what Torah really is

Jesus didn't claim to change it

and for the Messiah to claim to understand and be able to explain the Torah is perfectly Jewish
I believe Jesus did claim to change the Torah. An example is the law for divorce. I believe Jesus observed the Torah and even the Holy Days. It was Paul, Constantine and the early church fathers that were Anti-Torah.

[shunyadragon]

Goose is part of the "Netzarim" - see http://www.netzarim.co.il/
I read over this site in more detail an reviewed some of Goose's previous threads concerning these issues and I know think I have a better grasp of what Netzarim and Goose.

Netzarim is apparently a revival of an older Judaic sect that was started by a Baptist Minister (Clint Van Nest) took the name Yirmeyahu Ben-David and converted to Judaism about 20 years ago. He had been researching a first century Jewish sect called the Netzarim and became convinced that the founder of the sect Ribi Yehoshua was the messiah.

He apparently believes that Jesus Christ was either a false contemporary messiah or a Gentile Greco-Roman makeover of Ribi Yehoshua. Goose believes the Christian Jesus Christ is the Anti-Torah messiah.

Goose and I apparently both believe that the original 1st century messiah was a very Jewish messiah. At present I will with hold judgement on who Ribi Yehoshua was. I do hold a far more universal worldview of the nature of the messiah, the Law and God.

[Timothy Leary]

It's a bunch of semantics. Same person, different language in using the name. His views are the same as Goose's, just expressed differently. They have their own version of the book of matthew as well. They beleive that Christianity/Paul adultered and twisted around Jesus' teachings.

[Pitiricus]

I do not consider Jesus Christ a mamzer. I would like to hear more.
Well he was the son of a married woman by somebody else than the man she was engaged to. This is the definition of a mamzer according to the Torah, and precludes his haveing been anything like the messiah.

If she existed, I give her credit for a tall tale... But as one of my friends who worked in a school told me, there are a lot of immaculate conceptions there, at least when the nurse asks... :-)

[shunyadragon]

Well he was the son of a married woman by somebody else than the man she was engaged to. This is the definition of a mamzer according to the Torah, and precludes his haveing been anything like the messiah.

If she existed, I give her credit for a tall tale... But as one of my friends who worked in a school told me, there are a lot of immaculate conceptions there, at least when the nurse asks... :-)
Belief in half the story gets you into trouble. The purpose of the story was to justify that Jesus Christ was the literal Son of God and God incarnate. How can you just take half the story as true to justify your own argument?

Do you believe the story of Jesus conception and birth as the literal physical son of God or not?

The difference between your argument and mine is I believe the Bible is simply the work of men who believed the way they did in their world view. I do not take half stories as true to justify my own belief.

[learning]

Which one?

the one that Sacrificial Ram put on page one of this discussion here.
addition (Post # 13)

BTW, at our Bible study we were looking in Matthew how Matthew says that Jesus went to live in Nazareth, to fulfill the prophecy 'and He shall be called a Narzarene' but in my Bible dictionary, it says there is no prophecy that says that. It says this could just be a play on the word of 'Nazarene' ;
or 'Nazarite' which stands for 'set apart' or 'consecrated person' 'Nazier', though Leviticus refers to it as 'untrimmned vine' (from Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible)

also, I quote from Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible page 950, under 'Nazarene'

"A difficult use of Nazorafos appears in Matt. 2:23, which states that the family of Jesus settled in Nazareth as a fulfillment of the prophetic teaching that he would be called a Nazarene. The problem is that no OT passage explicity connects the Messiah with Nazareth. Apparently Matthew was referring rather to the general expectation of the prophets that the Messiah would be despised and rejected. (Ps. 22:6-8,[Matt 7-9];118:22; Isa. 49.7; 53:2-3) Jesus' association with Nazareth, a despised city (John 1:46), caused him to be scorned by some (cf.John 7:41-42,52) Elsewhere in his Gospel, Matthew quotes the OT to emphasize this theme of Jesus as a humble Messiah, rejected by his people.
(Matt. 12:16-21; 13:13-15; 21:42;27:39-44).

[Pitiricus]

Belief in half the story gets you into trouble. The purpose of the story was to justify that Jesus Christ was the literal Son of God and God incarnate. How can you just take half the story as true to justify your own argument?

Do you believe the story of Jesus conception and birth as the literal physical son of God or not?

The difference between your argument and mine is I believe the Bible is simply the work of men who believed the way they did in their world view. I do not take half stories as true to justify my own belief.
I don't even believe a Jesus existed at all...

But if he was, he was a mamzer so he couldn't be the messiah...

[Timothy Leary]

Well, you probably don't believe that Avraham or Moshe lived either.

[Timothy Leary]

Aish.com has the following:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

I don't completely agree with Sac, but i'm too lazy to get into a debate over it.

[Pitiricus]

Well, you probably don't believe that Avraham or Moshe lived either.So what? Even a lot of the Orthodox look at the Torah as a midrash...

Judaism isn't a religion of orthodoxy, but one of orthopraxy!

[Timothy Leary]

Any person who looks at the Torah as simply midrash isn't an Orthodox Jew at all, as they obviosly believe the Torah to be binding.

[shunyadragon]

I don't even believe a Jesus existed at all...

But if he was, he was a mamzer so he couldn't be the messiah...
To not believe Jesus existed at all is a more acceptable and debatable issue than calling him a mamzer. There have been debates on Tweb before on this subject and it is a good one.

Start a thread on this topic or pick up an old one. I would like to see your thoughts on the subject.

[shunyadragon]

Aish.com has the following:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).


B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

I don't completely agree with Sac, but i'm too lazy to get into a debate over it.This is interesting, though a bit off topic. This is close to the Baha'i view of prophesy. What is described in these prophecies is happening today. I may start a thread on this topic.

[Pitiricus]

Any person who looks at the Torah as simply midrash isn't an Orthodox Jew at all, as they obviosly believe the Torah to be binding.
Actually false...

According to the Talmud "everything is in the hands of heaven except the fear of heaven" This means not only that man is free to defy God but that God has created man with the potential not to fear Him. Man is left to decide by himself to determine what will be his attitude toward God. God, as it were, has relinquished His power to control man's attitude toward Him.


Similarly, God created man with the potential to make his own Torah. He relinquished His power to fully instruct man. He left man to instruct himself. Revelation was not complete, man has to supplement and complete it, making new laws and finding explanations for the old ones. God could have made revelation complete, but he chosed not to. Man has to do it (and this is the root of Tikkun Olam). In the process, controversies emerged that were resolved in a human way by majority rule, which is one of the most useful tools that man uses to instruct himself. It is necessary practically but it is divinely sanctioned (Exodus 23:2). God wants man to make his own decisions, to make his own Torah, even when the outcome is against His own truth. God's approval endows majority rule with an element of derivative divine Truth, but confined to the practical realm.

This is the meaning of the famous story of the dispute of R. Eliezer and R. Joshua. When disputing about a point of halacha it is said, a heavenly voice called out: "Why do you dipute with R. Eliezer, seeing that in all matters the Halakha agrees with him?" But the majority agreed with R. Joshua, and God laughed and said "my sons have defeated me" Even God accepts the view of the majority in matters of practical halacha.

It is different in matters of hashkafa, beliefs. In these intellectual verity is determined by objective criteria (not a majority) which God has not relinquished to man. Man's verity is confined to practice... You can believe whatever you want, that the Torah is midrash, and nobody can force on you another interpretation.

On the other hand, you must follow the majority rule in matters of practical Halacha... This is what determines orthodocy.

[bar Jonah]

Goose, how do you think Yeshua "reformed" the Torah? What, just because he recognized that in some situations, certain parts of the Torah cannot or should not be practiced, for the sake of a greater commandment? In any system of law set down in limited human language, such must be the case if one is to ultimately live righteously. He pointed out such things as healing or circumcizing on the Sabbath -- which is the greater priority? If two commandments come into conflict, what does one do? One goes with the commandment of higher priority.

Did not the Lord command through one of the prophets that Israel would cease sacrifices for a while...? Why was that? Perhaps this prophet was guilty of "reforming" the Torah, and should be rejected as a false prophet.

The Lord, speaking to Israel, says through the prophet:

10
Hear the word of the LORD,
You rulers of Sodom;
Give ear to the instruction of our God,
You people of Gomorrah.
11
"What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?"
Says the LORD.
"I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle;
And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.
12
"When you come to appear before Me,
Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?
13
"Bring your worthless offerings no longer,
Incense is an abomination to Me.
New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies--
I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
14
"I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts,
They have become a burden to Me;
I am weary of bearing them.
15
"So when you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Yes, even though you multiply prayers,
I will not listen.
Your hands are covered with blood.
16
"Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight.
Cease to do evil,
17
Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Reprove the ruthless,
Defend the orphan,
Plead for the widow.

Stop your sacrifices. Stop your offerings. Stop your incense.

Commanding God's holy nation to not do the commandments? How can this be?

[shunyadragon]

Stop your sacrifices. Stop your offerings. Stop your incense.

Commanding God's holy nation to not do the commandments? How can this be?
The reason here is clear. The nation is no longer holy. God is NOT changing the law. God is demanding that they stop, because they are hypocritical of following the Law. God is saying their sacrifices are unworthy, because their behavior is reprehensible.

[bar Jonah]

The reason here is clear. The nation is no longer holy. God is NOT changing the law. God is demanding that they stop, because they are hypocritical of following the Law. God is saying their sacrifices are unworthy, because their behavior is reprehensible.
Quite right. There are times when the Lord, Himself, may command His holy nation to not perform one commandment or another, because a higher priority was at work -- their sacrifices and offerings and prayers were not of faith. So He said to stop them for now, get back on track in faith, and then continue in them.

So, pointing out that Yeshua points out in some specific circumstances that one should not do this or that commandment... doesn't prove anything. If anything, it shows he had something in common with the Lord, viewing the Torah by the same or similar principles. Instead, the question should be whether he did so appropriately.

[Pitiricus]

To not believe Jesus existed at all is a more acceptable and debatable issue than calling him a mamzer. There have been debates on Tweb before on this subject and it is a good one.

Start a thread on this topic or pick up an old one. I would like to see your thoughts on the subject.
Well mamzer is a Hebrew legal term... And if there is a kernel of truth in the Gospels, this is what Jesus was...

It would of course also explain why he wasn't married when in his 30s, as a mamzer couldn't marry a Jew for 10 generations...

If you want start a thread on this...

[bar Jonah]

Well mamzer is a Hebrew legal term... And if there is a kernel of truth in the Gospels, this is what Jesus was...

It would of course also explain why he wasn't married when in his 30s, as a mamzer couldn't marry a Jew for 10 generations...

If you want start a thread on this...
That wouldn't fit with the fact that Yeshua repeatedly referred to himself as the Bridegroom, in contrast to Israel being the bride. Which goes to the Tanakh's references to the Lord considering Israel as His bride, she being a harlot and committing adultery in the books of the prophets, etc.

[shunyadragon]

Well mamzer is a Hebrew legal term... And if there is a kernel of truth in the Gospels, this is what Jesus was...

It would of course also explain why he wasn't married when in his 30s, as a mamzer couldn't marry a Jew for 10 generations...

If you want start a thread on this...
Your the one who brought it up. Why don't you start one. The kernal of truth you speak of would be meaningless to since you do not believe it is true. Your only point is to 'use' in a mamzer argument.

Not much is known of Christ's life to say he was married or not. Nothing in the gospels says he was not married. I believe Mary Magdeline was his wife.

[Centurion]

Okay, shuyadragon, how was Paul anti-torah?

[shunyadragon]

Okay, shuyadragon, how was Paul anti-torah?
He promoted the belief that obedience to the Law of the Torah was not necessary.

He promoted a Greco-Roman doctrine of the Trinity which is violation of the very fundimental doctrine of the Law and the OT.

These beliefs, absent from the OT and the gospels, form the basis for Constantine and the early church fathers completely forbiding anyone from following the Law of the Torah and the establishment of the Trinity as church doctrine.

In contrast Christ was an observer of the Law of the Torah.

I am able to present more details from Paul's letters to support this if necessary.

[bar Jonah]

He promoted the belief that obedience to the Law of the Torah was not necessary.

He promoted a Greco-Roman doctrine of the Trinity which is violation of the very fundimental doctrine of the Law and the OT.

These beliefs, absent from the OT and the gospels, form the basis for Constantine and the early church fathers completely forbiding anyone from following the Law of the Torah and the establishment of the Trinity as church doctrine.

In contrast Christ was an observer of the Law of the Torah.

I am able to present more details from Paul's letters to support this if necessary.
I would never say that Paul was anti-Torah. More than once, he wrote about how the Law is holy and sacred and perfect, and that when practiced by those for whom it was meant -- Jewish believers in Israel's covenant -- it was a blessing. It's just that Paul was the founder (under Christ's authority) of the Body of Christ, in which the Law has no direct part of relationship with God once a believer is saved. We are not Israel, so why would we try to steal her covenant for ourselves? We are in relationship with God outside of that. But still in principles of righteousness; just not the Jewish Torah, specifically.

It might interest you to know, though, that a few Christians do recognize the contradiction in theology between Paul on the one hand and Christ's earthly ministry and the Twelve on the other hand. It is a division that so many Christians gloss over and even bend over backward to deny. Like you, I believe it's clear as day, and I'm not alone. (This view is a variety of dispensational theology called Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, holding that after Israel is set aside in Acts 7, Paul is called as the first member of the Body of Christ in Acts 9, his ministry beginning at that point or soon in the next few chapters.)

[Goose]

Those are Goose's views as well.
No they're not.

[Goose]

It's a bunch of semantics. Same person, different language in using the name. His views are the same as Goose's, just expressed differently. They have their own version of the book of matthew as well. They beleive that Christianity/Paul adultered and twisted around Jesus' teachings.
That's a lie. It's not the same person. I've talked with you many times before about this(at least 3 over IM). Why are you spreading an evil tongue? The only thing you sort of got right, was that I find Paul to be an apostate.

[Timothy Leary]

That's a lie. It's not the same person. I've talked with you many times before about this(at least 3 over IM). Why are you spreading an evil tongue? The only thing you sort of got right, was that I find Paul to be an apostate.

It is not evil tongue. Same person, Same books, different views about him. Your argument is absurd as the argument that Mormons don't believe in Jesus.

[Goose]

It is not evil tongue. Same person, Same books, different views about him. Your argument is absurd as the argument that Mormons don't believe in Jesus.Could you back that up with some substantiation?
Have you read the authentic Netzarim reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu? Could you quote from it?

Why not back up your claims. If our reconstruction says that Yehoshua was an ordinary Jew in good standing, conceived in the ordinary way, yet the Christian Bible talks of a Jesus that was conceived between Mary and God, then these two people cannot be the same person. One cannot be conceived multiple ways. Therefore, it's YOUR logic, that is absurd.

You're baseless hatred and evil tongue is not in line with one who follows the Torah of HaShem. Quit trying to put wool over the eyes of the readers of this forum.

[Timothy Leary]

Could you back that up with some substantiation?
Have you read the authentic Netzarim reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu? Could you quote from it?

I would, but I'm not going to pay 200$ for it.

Why not back up your claims. If our reconstruction says that Yehoshua was an ordinary Jew in good standing, conceived in the ordinary way, yet the Christian Bible talks of a Jesus that was conceived between Mary and God, then these two people cannot be the same person. One cannot be conceived multiple ways. Therefore, it's YOUR logic, that is absurd.

No, it means that there are contradictory accounts of a person's life. A perfect example of this would be Anan ben David. The fanciful accounts about him written hunrdeds of years after his death. The most fanciful of the Rabbinical accounts say that he was a hateful Jew who rebelled against the Rabbinical Authorities after failing to become the exilarch, founded Karaism, and worshipped Muhammed and Jesus. The most fanciful of the Karaite accounts potray him as a humble man being constantly in danger of Rabbinical Assasination attempts. And then we go to the earliest accounts (both rabbinical and karaite), which say nothing of those fanciful details, save that he began the sect of the Ananites. Are these all speaking of different men?

You're baseless hatred and evil tongue is not in line with one who follows the Torah of HaShem. Quit trying to put wool over the eyes of the readers of this forum.

Goose, you know me quite well. If you think I hate you, you misunderstand me. BTW, where have you been...?

[kofh2u]

Well he was the son of a married woman by somebody else than the man she was engaged to. This is the definition of a mamzer according to the Torah, and precludes his haveing been anything like the messiah.

If she existed, I give her credit for a tall tale... But as one of my friends who worked in a school told me, there are a lot of immaculate conceptions there, at least when the nurse asks... :-)


Hahahaaaaa...
So true,... the schools today.

There is much to learn from the story of Mary though.

Drag all but the head from the womb, and killing the child would surely have been an early cross for the First Coming, aborting God, in those days. What does Kerry call this, post birthabortion or what?

While we await a messiah today, Jew and Christian, 1.5 million kids (13-24) have abortions each year. How is the legal abortion any different from Herod's massacre? Or, was it artistic license, convenient current events, dramatic use of Herod's approval of wide spread abortion in those times, worship of Ashtoreh?

And, yes, Joseph may well have "petted" Mary a little to hotly, as many High School girls who are technical virgins find out.

But, the Immaculate Conception refers to more than Joseph's premature external ejaculation. The immaculate part is far more sugnificant. And, indeed, God, the father of all children, went an extra mile here too.

The genetic mutation of the Y-chromosome which advanced Jesus one leg up on the Evolutionary ladder was God-given impetus. The mortal, Modern Homo sapiens, Mary and Joseph gave birth to the first born Homoiousian Man.

Here we see how the genetic lineage of Joseph connects Jesus to the vine of David, yet gives God his just due, Father to the first born Homoiousian of God!

[shunyadragon]

I would never say that Paul was anti-Torah. More than once, he wrote about how the Law is holy and sacred and perfect, and that when practiced by those for whom it was meant -- Jewish believers in Israel's covenant -- it was a blessing. It's just that Paul was the founder (under Christ's authority) of the Body of Christ, in which the Law has no direct part of relationship with God once a believer is saved. We are not Israel, so why would we try to steal her covenant for ourselves? We are in relationship with God outside of that. But still in principles of righteousness; just not the Jewish Torah, specifically.

It might interest you to know, though, that a few Christians do recognize the contradiction in theology between Paul on the one hand and Christ's earthly ministry and the Twelve on the other hand. It is a division that so many Christians gloss over and even bend over backward to deny. Like you, I believe it's clear as day, and I'm not alone. (This view is a variety of dispensational theology called Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, holding that after Israel is set aside in Acts 7, Paul is called as the first member of the Body of Christ in Acts 9, his ministry beginning at that point or soon in the next few chapters.)Okay, you may not accept Paul as anti-Torah, because of your beliefs described here, but I do not feel they are valid.

Paul's stance clearly became anti-Judiac as in I Thessalonians 2:15

I do not accept Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, because I do not accept Paul's explanation. Christ never indicated this in his ministry and Paul's teaching lacks support in prophecy and Christ's teaching. Christ also said he came to teach the Jew and not the gentile. The fact that he followed the Torah and support more the fulfillment of the Law in Mathew 5:17-18, would indicate this is not true.

The early church fathers and Constantine became very anti-Judiac and forbide the following the laws of the Torah. In this process Christianity became a Greco-Roman religion.

[kofh2u]

Belief in half the story gets you into trouble. The purpose of the story was to justify that Jesus Christ was the literal Son of God and God incarnate. How can you just take half the story as true to justify your own argument?

Do you believe the story of Jesus conception and birth as the literal physical son of God or not?

The difference between your argument and mine is I believe the Bible is simply the work of men who believed the way they did in their world view. I do not take half stories as true to justify my own belief.


Do you ever find it necessary to invent or fall back on metaphysical, unrealistic, supernatural-like ideas in order to maintain the concepts developed by your intuitions about our spiritual life?

If you do, have more faith that it will all be set straight.

The scriptures were written, as a living Word, evermore growing into the next mental paradigm of man's advancing intellectual awakening from the last. From Epic Interpretation, through Mythopaeic Tales, and Literalism that needed metaphysical support, the Bible, the Truth, reaches us today.

In this Age of Enlightenment we will come to understand more clearly just how amazingly true these writings are.

Genetic mutation and manipulation has created many "sons of God," that is, those humanoid links in the progressive development of the coming last and finished product, Homoiousian sapiens.

EXAMPLE:

There were giants (Homo Erectus, two species, Methuselahian and Methusaelian) in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God (the Methusaelian Homo erectus) came in unto the daughters of men (Lamechian Homo antecessors, and even Neanderthal), and they bare (Neanderthal) children to them, the same became mighty men (hybrids preceeding the advent of Modern Homo Sapiens) which were of old, men of renown. Gen. 6:4

[Goose]

I would, but I'm not going to pay 200$ for it.



No, it means that there are contradictory accounts of a person's life. A perfect example of this would be Anan ben David. The fanciful accounts about him written hunrdeds of years after his death. The most fanciful of the Rabbinical accounts say that he was a hateful Jew who rebelled against the Rabbinical Authorities after failing to become the exilarch, founded Karaism, and worshipped Muhammed and Jesus. The most fanciful of the Karaite accounts potray him as a humble man being constantly in danger of Rabbinical Assasination attempts. And then we go to the earliest accounts (both rabbinical and karaite), which say nothing of those fanciful details, save that he began the sect of the Ananites. Are these all speaking of different men?For the record, you offered no substantiation for your attacks against me. Completely inane.
Goose, you know me quite well. If you think I hate you, you misunderstand me. BTW, where have you been...?Iif you were truly a friend, then you would have understood the 4th time I explained my views. Friends listen, try to understand, are considerate and help eachother.

[Timothy Leary]

For the record, you offered no substantiation for your attacks against me. Completely inane.

Erm... what attacks?

Iif you were truly a friend, then you would have understood the 4th time I explained my views. Friends listen, try to understand, are considerate and help eachother.

Dude, I have tried to understand. I still don't.

[kofh2u]

that all begs the question of what Torah really is

Jesus didn't claim to change it

and for the Messiah to claim to understand and be able to explain the Torah is perfectly Jewish




And, perfect description of what the messiah shall do in setting it straight!

Matthew 11:27 ... No one knows the Son except (he be as prophesied by) the Father, (the Word, which is God), and no one knows, (or interprets) the Father, (the Word even pre-existing written scripture), except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

[shunyadragon]

that all begs the question of what Torah really is

Jesus didn't claim to change it

and for the Messiah to claim to understand and be able to explain the Torah is perfectly Jewish
Jesus Christ specifically changed the laws of the Torah concerning divorce.

And, perfect description of what the messiah shall do in setting it straight!

Matthew 11:27 ... No one knows the Son except (he be as prophesied by) the Father, (the Word, which is God), and no one knows, (or interprets) the Father, (the Word even pre-existing written scripture), except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Not so sure this was related to the above.

[heaven]

I believe Jesus's concept of divorce and marriage came from the essenes, but He does
quote the source of the law of Moses as well.

Paul was an orthodox jew who studied under Gamileil, and preached to the jews according
to the law and the scriptures and to the gentile , the mystery of faith, since the gentiles
did not have the law.
However, following Jesus , He introduces His followers to the law. the torah and
the prophets etc., because Jesus was a devout jew.
The concept of faith is not new to the jews, Father Abraham walked by faith.
Jesusl took faith as the meeting point between the jews and the gentiles, as He did
with the centurion. Paul went to the gentiles with the same approach. Whereas the
church of Jesrusallem was involved in laying the foundation of the ressurection, Paul
laid the foundation of the law by preaching Christ crucified. The crux of the law is love.

[kofh2u]

Shuny,

The very fact that you say Jesus kept Torah, but then reformed Torah, precludes him from being the Messiah, as stated in Deutoronomy 13. Torah is perfect, and never changes. Plus, you seem to not understand that the oral Torah and written Torah, are considered equal Torah.


This would be one logical conclusion.

Another cnclusion might be equally as logical.

Jesus was the living Torah which set straight misconceptions especially in the understanding of the written Torah.

The understanding that written Torah is/was erroneous to some degree in its denotations due to historical errosion, and misunderstood in its connotation because of misinterpretation is founded upon prophecy he, the messiah, would make the "crooked straight."
Is 40:3,4,5,13-14,
Is 42:16-21
Is 45:2
Lukev3:5

[shunyadragon]

I believe Jesus's concept of divorce and marriage came from the essenes, but He does
quote the source of the law of Moses as well.

Paul was an orthodox jew who studied under Gamileil, and preached to the jews according
to the law and the scriptures and to the gentile , the mystery of faith, since the gentiles
did not have the law.
However, following Jesus , He introduces His followers to the law. the torah and
the prophets etc., because Jesus was a devout jew.
The concept of faith is not new to the jews, Father Abraham walked by faith.
Jesusl took faith as the meeting point between the jews and the gentiles, as He did
with the centurion. Paul went to the gentiles with the same approach. Whereas the
church of Jesrusallem was involved in laying the foundation of the ressurection, Paul
laid the foundation of the law by preaching Christ crucified. The crux of the law is love.All this being true. There is still the problem that Paul advocated that the Law of the Torah no longer needed to be followed in contradiction to Christ's life and teachings. Paul also advocated the Trinitarian view of god, whaich also created problems.

[kofh2u]

All this being true. There is still the problem that Paul advocated that the Law of the Torah no longer needed to be followed in contradiction to Christ's life and teachings. Paul also advocated the Trinitarian view of god, whaich also created problems.



The point Paul makes is relevant to "Before and After."

Before Christ, you were either following the Torah or sinning.

After Jesus, if you were moved up a level as a type of person, Torah had served its purpose.

2Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, (Homooiusian), he is a
new creature, (even a different species of man): old things (of Modern Homo sapiens' thinking) are passed away; behold, all things are become new (in one's homoioiusian transformation).

[shunyadragon]

The point Paul makes is relevant to "Before and After."

Before Christ, you were either following the Torah or sinning.

After Jesus, if you were moved up a level as a type of person, Torah had served its purpose.

2Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, (Homooiusian), he is a
new creature, (even a different species of man): old things (of Modern Homo sapiens' thinking) are passed away; behold, all things are become new (in one's homoioiusian transformation).I have heard similar interpretations from Christians of different persuations. Yes a new Age, all thing become, and some changes, but no, the Torah had not served it's purpose and completely abrogated.

[kofh2u]

I have heard similar interpretations from Christians of different persuations. Yes a new Age, all thing become, and some changes, but no, the Torah had not served it's purpose and completely abrogated.


I am not ce tain as regards the meaning of your post.

1) What in your opinion is the purpose of Torah?

2) How might such a purpose be completely fulfilled?

3) Do you imply that the ritualized behaviors such as dietary laws and circumcisn, etc is/are THE purpose... that those practices continue forever...

4) Do you separate ritual purpose from change of attitudes?








Rev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars, (the sevenfold
spirit of the psyche: Id, Libido, Ego, Anima, Self, Harmony, Superego):

[heaven]

:ahem: I am not ce tain as regards the meaning of your post.

1) What in your opinion is the purpose of Torah?

2) How might such a purpose be completely fulfilled?

3) Do you imply that the ritualized behaviors such as dietary laws and circumcisn, etc is/are THE purpose... that those practices continue forever...

4) Do you separate ritual purpose from change of attitudes?


:ahem: John 1

In the beginning was the Word
And the Word was with God
And the Word was God
And the Word became flesh
And dwelt among us

:ahem: In the beginning was the Torah
And the Torah was with God
And the Torah was God
And the Torah became flesh
And dwelt among us

:ahem: The 4 gospels of the Brit Hadasha deal with matters of the law and the
prophets. You will find answers to your questions in the gospels. Read the
Wedding Feast at Cana and teachings on marriage, how Yeshua said that Moses allowed the writ of divorce because of the hardness of your hearts.......but what God has put together, let no man put asunder.(paraphrased)

:ahem: Read about the priest Nicodemus, who interprets everything according to
the law, but Yeshua states must be seen with the spiritual eye..........
In other words, Yeshua mediates the mosaic covenant and the Abrahamic
Covenant and the New Covenant, which came at passover
And then mediates all with God. Amen


Rev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars, (the sevenfold
spirit of the psyche: Id, Libido, Ego, Anima, Self, Harmony, Superego):

[shunyadragon]

I am not certain as regards the meaning of your post.

1) What in your opinion is the purpose of Torah?

2) How might such a purpose be completely fulfilled?

3) Do you imply that the ritualized behaviors such as dietary laws and circumcisn, etc is/are THE purpose... that those practices continue forever...

4) Do you separate ritual purpose from change of attitudes?
To me the Laws of God found in the Torah are forever, but evolve and change over time. They are never abrogated as indicated by those who support the traditional Christian view. There were obviously Laws before Moses and before Noah and they were not the same. It is obvious that even the most orthodox of Jew does not follow the the letter of the Law in the Torah. All the laws are not intended to be for forever.The Law of God evolves like humanity, life earth and the universe. The Baha'i Laws bear some things in common with the Torah, but represent a greater relavence to the needs of the world today.

Ritual purposes and prayer are a part of every religion. For example, I believe the fast is part of Law, but in Christianity since the Law is neglected, The fast is observed only by some as a watered down version called Lent. The Law of the Fast is restored in Islam and the Baha'i Faith.

[kofh2u]

To me the Laws of God found in the Torah are forever, but evolve and change over time. They are never abrogated as indicated by those who support the traditional Christian view. There were obviously Laws before Moses and before Noah and they were not the same. It is obvious that even the most orthodox of Jew does not follow the the letter of the Law in the Torah. All the laws are not intended to be for forever.The Law of God evolves like humanity, life earth and the universe. The Baha'i Laws bear some things in common with the Torah, but represent a greater relavence to the needs of the world today.

Ritual purposes and prayer are a part of every religion. For example, I believe the fast is part of Law, but in Christianity since the Law is neglected, The fast is observed only by some as a watered down version called Lent. The Law of the Fast is restored in Islam and the Baha'i Faith.


You say:
"To me the Laws of God found in the Torah are forever, but evolve and change over time..."

Then, you also add:
"All the laws are not intended to be for forever"

This seems contradictory, does it not?

So, I assume you mean they are not forever because they evolve, but in evolving the new form is forever?

But then you seem to deny this similar perspective to the Christians? You say:

"They are never abrogated as indicated by those who support the traditional Christian view"...

[Metacrock]

You say:
"To me the Laws of God found in the Torah are forever, but evolve and change over time..."

Then, you also add:
"All the laws are not intended to be for forever"

This seems contradictory, does it not?

So, I assume you mean they are not forever because they evolve, but in evolving the new form is forever?

But then you seem to deny this similar perspective to the Christians? You say:

"They are never abrogated as indicated by those who support the traditional Christian view"...


Christian view is that Law as a mechinism to show us how sinful we are. But Jesus is the emobodyment of the law. The law is not neglected, but internalized. Through God's grace we take on the desire for righetousness.

Now you say Troah is forever, but the coventant is not forever.The Prophet Jerimiah in 31 said "I will make a new covment it will not be like the old, because they broke the old.I will write my laws in their hearts. No longer will a neighbor say to his neighbor "know the Lord" for they will all know me."

that means, to us, that the law was merely a list of rules. IT's easy to break the rules. But the new convenant is in the heart. The rules are put in the heart thorugh a personal relationship with God. To be in that covenant is to have that relationship, so it's not just a matter of rule-keeping, but to even be in it is to know God.

[Goose]

Now you say Troah is forever, but the coventant is not forever.The Prophet Jerimiah in 31 said "I will make a new covment it will not be like the old, because they broke the old.I will write my laws in their hearts. No longer will a neighbor say to his neighbor "know the Lord" for they will all know me."

Jeremiah 31 has not been fulfilled.

[kofh2u]

Christian view is that Law as a mechinism to show us how sinful we are. But Jesus is the emobodyment of the law. The law is not neglected, but internalized. Through God's grace we take on the desire for righetousness.

Now you say Troah is forever, but the coventant is not forever.The Prophet Jerimiah in 31 said "I will make a new covment it will not be like the old, because they broke the old.I will write my laws in their hearts. No longer will a neighbor say to his neighbor "know the Lord" for they will all know me."

that means, to us, that the law was merely a list of rules. IT's easy to break the rules. But the new convenant is in the heart. The rules are put in the heart thorugh a personal relationship with God. To be in that covenant is to have that relationship, so it's not just a matter of rule-keeping, but to even be in it is to know God.



Yes, I understand this.
I am trying to get straight what the Bab view of scripture is all about.

He seems to grasp the living bible point of view, how the written law evolved into a law of the heart, a desire to do what the law was directing us to observe in our behavior.

You add the insights of covenants, failed and re-newed which Shuny hasn't discussed yet. Nevertheless, what you say here jumps ahead and wonder how the Bab responded to this Christian understanding.

Nevertheless, his open ended acceptance of scripture with his insistance on reservations makes it difficult to understand what he holds eternal and what he claims open to change.

Christian are also perplex by Christ's statement that not a tittle of the law will be removed, implying that fulfillment of the law, "rules are put in the heart thorugh a personal relationship with God."


Gal. 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature (Homoioiusian).

[kofh2u]

Jeremiah 31 has not been fulfilled.



Be patient a little longer, the generation that saw 1948 will see all fulfilled.

Isa. 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root, (a genetic descendent), of Jesse, (the Lion of
the tribe of Judah, the root of David), which shall stand for an ensign of the people, (to the Jew as does the Cross for Christians); to it, (this living Cross), shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest (of 2000 years) shall be glorious.

Isa. 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day (in the 21st Century), that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people (Israel), which shall be left (from the day of Holocaust), from Assyria, (anywhere in the previous empire of Mesopotamia, especially the ten tribes lost among them), and from Egypt, and from Pathros, (the coast of Northern Africa), and from Cush, (Ethiopia), and from Elam, (Iran), and from Shinar, (Iraq), and from Hamath, (Syria), and from the islands (the Americas) of the sea.

Isa. 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign (of a Cross) for the nations,
and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel (from Western Europe), and
gather together the dispersed (survivors) of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

[Drashi]

Paul was an orthodox jew who studied under Gamileil, and preached to the jews according to the law and the scriptures and to the gentile , the mystery of faith, since the gentiles did not have the law.
We don't have any evidence that Paul studied under anyone or even that he was orthodox. He did, however, list his supposed Jewish attributes and then declare that he needed to treat them as dung in order to accept a Christ.

And I agree. To accept a Christ, a Jew must cease to be a Jew. For the very foundation of Judaism, of never praying to that which was manifest, needs to be violated. Maybe that is why Paul became so anti-Jewish in his attitudes.

There is a polemic that states that he was most likely a Gentile (he does claim Roman citizenship) who was enamored with a Jewish woman, and converted, and then went negative when he was rejected as a lover.

Some of his statements are very strange. He claimes to have been a Pharisee, but worked closely with the High Priest (Saducee) who hired killers to kill Pharisees. He claims to have sat on courts to try people for idolotry, but the Sanhedrin had long since stopped meeting to handle capital cases. He claims to have studied under Gamliel who was the Nasi at that time, who spoke radically against heretical Jews, but Paul says the opposite.

Strange goy.

[shunyadragon]

The point Paul makes is relevant to "Before and After."

Before Christ, you were either following the Torah or sinning.

After Jesus, if you were moved up a level as a type of person, Torah had served its purpose.

2Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, (Homooiusian), he is a
new creature, (even a different species of man): old things (of Modern Homo sapiens' thinking) are passed away; behold, all things are become new (in one's homoioiusian transformation).
True and false. The Torah obviously changes over time, and Jesus advocated that, but Paul did not advocate change the change described by Christ, he advocated an end to observance of the Torah for all believers. The result that Christians divorced themselves from the Torah and became a Greco-Roman religion. Jesus's life is a witness to observing the Torah and revising it, not rejecting it as pro-Roman Paul advocated.

[shunyadragon]

You say:
"To me the Laws of God found in the Torah are forever, but evolve and change over time..."

Then, you also add:
"All the laws are not intended to be for forever"

This seems contradictory, does it not?
No, changes in the laws does not abrogate the Laws of the Torah. The Law is forever.

So, I assume you mean they are not forever because they evolve, but in evolving the new form is forever?
True.

But then you seem to deny this similar perspective to the Christians? You say:

"They are never abrogated as indicated by those who support the traditional Christian view"...
I do believe they are never abrogated! They change, but they remain faithful to the Torah. The Best example I can think of is the fast. Christians by and large do not observe the fast.

I believe the fast is an obligation observe in obedience to the Torah, and the Law of God that has not been abrogated. Moslems and Baha'is still observe the fast and remain faithful to the law.

[shunyadragon]

Christian view is that Law as a mechinism to show us how sinful we are. But Jesus is the emobodyment of the law. The law is not neglected, but internalized. Through God's grace we take on the desire for righetousness.

Now you say Troah is forever, but the coventant is not forever.The Prophet Jerimiah in 31 said "I will make a new covment it will not be like the old, because they broke the old.I will write my laws in their hearts. No longer will a neighbor say to his neighbor "know the Lord" for they will all know me."

that means, to us, that the law was merely a list of rules. IT's easy to break the rules. But the new convenant is in the heart. The rules are put in the heart thorugh a personal relationship with God. To be in that covenant is to have that relationship, so it's not just a matter of rule-keeping, but to even be in it is to know God.
The Law of the Torah was never merely a set of rules. The covenant has always been in the heart and the personal relationship with God. This represents no change. It has never been a matter of rule-keeping, but the Torah remains as the Law of God forever.

Christ observed the law and made it more relavent, but Paul took the Greco-Roman route and advocated the Torah need not be observed.

[shunyadragon]

Jeremiah 31 has not been fulfilled.
The Baha'i Faith claims this has been fulfilled and with good reason. Since 1844 the whole world has known, "No longer will a neighbor say to his neighbor 'know the Lord' for they will all know me."

At some time we have to give up the ghost and chains of our provincial exclusiveness of the past and realize, all 'know the Lord.' regardless of whether people will acknowledge God or not.

[Drashi]

The majority of the world is neither Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim.

da'at HaShem means that the world will know that there is but one singular creator, there are no avatars, that there is but one source, without division, for that very title indicates a non-object.

"know" is not an intellectual expression, but a unifying one, where one who "knows" HaShem expresses His desires (it is a biblical form of identification). And so long as people are strapping bombs upon themselves, they don't know HaShem.

Nope, we are not there yet.

[kofh2u]

The majority of the world is neither Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim.

da'at HaShem means that the world will know that there is but one singular creator, there are no avatars, that there is but one source, without division, for that very title indicates a non-object.

"know" is not an intellectual expression, but a unifying one, where one who "knows" HaShem expresses His desires (it is a biblical form of identification). And so long as people are strapping bombs upon themselves, they don't know HaShem.

nope, we're not there yet.

"nope, we're not there yet."

True!!!!!!

But, we Christians are only a STONE's THROW away...

Isa. 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud (from the Americas), and as the doves (of peace) to their (cathedral) windows?

Isa. 60:9 Surely the isles (of the New World) shall wait for me, and
the ships of Tarshish first (from Western Europe), to bring thy sons (of Abraham) from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD, (YHVH), thy (Theistic) God, and to the Holy One of Israel, (Jesus), because he hath glorified thee (in Christianity).

Isa. 60:10 And the sons of strangers (from the Americas) shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister peace unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee (in Holocaust), but in my favour (restoring my chosen to Israel) have I had mercy on thee.

Isa. 60:11 Therefore thy gates, (O'Promised Land), shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring (as tourists) unto thee the forces of the (rich Christian) Gentiles, and
that their kings may be brought, (supporting your sovereignty).

[Drashi]

So you admit we are not there yet.

Prophecy not yet fulfilled.

As far as the beginning of the thread, does someone violating the Torah (eating on a fast day, telling someone it's ok not to bury their father, justifying why his men were harvesting raw grain on Shabbat, etc.) also does not fulfill any prophecy except the one about a dreamer of dreams who claims that he speaks the word of the Creator and then turns around and violates the Torah.

[kofh2u]

So you admit we are not there yet.

Prophecy not yet fulfilled.

As far as the beginning of the thread, does someone violating the Torah (eating on a fast day, telling someone it's ok not to bury their father, justifying why his men were harvesting raw grain on Shabbat, etc.) also does not fulfill any prophecy except the one about a dreamer of dreams who claims that he speaks the word of the Creator and then turns around and violates the Torah.
Apples and oranges.

Yes, it is a work i progress.

It will be completed soon. The means of these 2000 years has an ends in bringing Torah to the Christian, and the New Testament Christ to the Jew. He has sheep from two folds as it is written.

Zech. 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, (all Islam), and the punishment of all (Christian) nations that come not up to keep the feast (in their sukkots) of tabernacles (the cube shaped rooms).

Jesus said not think he would judge you, the Jews, but that Moses would. So, hopefully, during these 2000 years of prophecy filfillment, you have kept the Torah because you do not have Jesus to save you 9n its place.

Isa. 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their
fears upon them; because when I called, (in 32 AD), none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

And, as the Christians know, they are to be judged by Matthew 25:31, the White Throne.
Apples and oranges.

Isa. 66:5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word, (the Bible); Your brethren, (the Jews), that hated you (first Christians), that cast you out (of the synagogues) for my name’s sake, (Jesus), said, "Let the LORD, (YHVH), be glorified:" but he, Christ), shall appear (in 2K4) to your joy, and they, (your brethren) shall be ashamed.

[Richbee]

Since Christianity's claims derive ultimately entirely from TN"K(Tanach - what Christians call the Hebrew Old Testament), Deuteronomy 13:1-5 explicitly precludes an anti-Torah Jesus as being the Messiah.

"If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee." -
Deu 13:1-5

Jesus would have no worries with these verses! Jesus is the Son of God, sent by the Father, to do the will of the Father.

This is excellent and I quote at length:

Jesus and Judaism

By Craig A. Evans

"What more than anything else," says Josephus, the first-century Jewish historian, "incited them to the war was an ambiguous oracle, found in their sacred scriptures, to the effect that at that time one from their country would become ruler of the world" (Josephus, Jewish Wars, 6.5.4 §312). We suspect that Josephus has in mind the prophecy of Numbers 24:17 ("from Jacob a star shall go forth") not only because it fits so well the immediate context, but because a few paragraphs earlier he mentions a star that appeared over the city of Jerusalem, followed by a comet that shone in the sky for a year: "By the inexperienced this was regarded as a good omen" (Jewish Wars, 6.5.4 §289-91).

This is a remarkable admission on the part of Josephus, for the wily survivor of the great rebellion scrupulously avoids the subject of messianism in his scattered discussion of Jewish beliefs. .....

SNIP

Jesus and his......

HIGH VIEW OF THE AUTHORITY OF TORAH

According to Luke 10:25-28, an expert in the law asks Jesus: "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus responds with questions of his own: "What is written in the Law?" And how does he read it? The Scripture scholar responds by reciting the double commandment, a commandment which Jesus also is said to have recited (Mark 12:29-31): "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." Jesus commends the man for his answer: "You have answered right; do this, and you will live." The Scripture scholar’s question constitutes the classic Jewish religious question (see also Mark 10:17). His answer, prompted by Jesus’ question, reflects a summary of the Law that is attested in various forms in many sources (cf. T. Iss. 5:2; 7:6; T. Dan 5:3; Ep. Artist. 229; Philo, Virt. 1, 95; Spec. Leg. 2.63; Abr. 208).9 Jesus’ positive response, in which he alludes to Leviticus 18:5, could not possibly be more thoroughly Jewish.

Does the question of the greatest commandment derive from authentic tradition? It probably does. Had this exchange been produced by a Christian community, surely the right answer would have been different. After all, Christians proclaimed that salvation came through faith in the risen Jesus (e.g., Acts 2:38; 4:12; Rom. 10:10), not through obedience to the Jewish Law. Therefore, Luke 10:25-28, even if edited and recontextualized, must derive from the life and ministry of Jesus, not from the Christian community.

What is especially interesting here is that once again Jesus’ teaching presupposes Jewish interpretive tradition. Jesus’ assurance to the legal expert ("Do this, and you will live") alludes to Leviticus 18:5, as commentators recognize.10 But Leviticus 18:5 says nothing about "eternal life," which is what the legal expert had asked about. Evidently, Jesus presupposed the Aramaic paraphrase: "You should observe my ordinances and my laws, which, if a person practices them, he shall live by them in eternal life" (Tg. Onq Lev. 18:5). The antiquity of this interpretive tradition is attested at Qumran, where those who do "the desires of his will, ‘which a man should do and so have life in them’ [Lev. 18:5] ... shall receive eternal life" (CD 3:15-16, 20). Jesus’ high regard for Torah places him squarely at the center of Jewish faith and piety.


Source:: More (www.wcg.org/lit/jesus/judaism.htm)

[Richbee]

Shuny,

The very fact that you say Jesus kept Torah, but then reformed Torah, precludes him from being the Messiah, as stated in Deutoronomy 13. Torah is perfect, and never changes. Plus, you seem to not understand that the oral Torah and written Torah, are considered equal Torah.

Can you quote where the Sadducees or Pharisees claimed that Jesus was Anti-Torah?

Jesus was without sin, yet Annas and Caiaphus were corrupt Priests, along with the Temple leaders, and various scribes. They had turned the Temple into a den for robbers and theives.

[kofh2u]

Can you quote where the Sadducees or Pharisees claimed that Jesus was Anti-Torah?

Jesus was without sin, yet Annas and Caiaphus were corrupt Priests, along with the Temple leaders, and various scribes. They had turned the Temple into a den for robbers and theives.

That was my point.

Peter and Paul resolved the issue of pagan converts and ritual of Torah. The ritual was merely the mans of pointing out the messiah. His arrival made ritual passe'.

The Hebrew Christians continued, as had Jesus, to observe Torah, but they proclaimed Christ the messiah.

Paul recommended the conversion of pagans to monotheistic Christianity, and excused them from Torah. His reasoning was based on scripture. The law would be wrirren on men's hars and they would want to do the will of God.

[Drashi]

Can you quote where the Sadducees or Pharisees claimed that Jesus was Anti-Torah?
Since the assimilationists (Saducees) had so much in common with JC, they could care less (Although it is interesting that it was the Saducees who the story has capturing him and having him killed - the priesthood).

The Pharisees did chastise JC for Torah violations (I will paraphrase to be cute, but serious).

* "Why are you eating on a Jewish fast day?" "Oh, my guys don't have to fast because they should be happy that I am around. They can fast after I am gone and mourn for me."

* "How come your guys are harvesting raw grain on Shabat and violating Shabbat?" "I am the lord of Shabbat and can change the rules, so bugger off!"

* Or my favorite "Master, I want to go with you but I have to fulfill the Torah obligation and bury my father!" "Forget that. I am far more important than Torah. Let the dead bury their own!"

Seems to me that I recall JC praising the Pharisees that the jews should seek to be like they who sit in the seat of Moshe - the Grandson of Rabbi Hillel (A Pharisee) was the head of the Sanhedrin at the time (if it really happened around 25-35CE).

[Drashi]

The Hebrew Christians continued, as had Jesus, to observe Torah, but they proclaimed Christ the messiah.

Paul recommended the conversion of pagans to monotheistic Christianity, and excused them from Torah. His reasoning was based on scripture. The law would be wrirren on men's hars and they would want to do the will of God.
Seems to me that Paul said that all of the "ritual" of the jews he hadto discard, treat like dung in order to accept a Christ into his life.

Sounds pretty clear to me - Accept JC as a deity and you cease to be a Jew.

[Richbee]

Since the assimilationists (Saducees) had so much in common with JC, they could care less (Although it is interesting that it was the Saducees who the story has capturing him and having him killed - the priesthood).

The Pharisees did chastise JC for Torah violations (I will paraphrase to be cute, but serious).

* "Why are you eating on a Jewish fast day?" "Oh, my guys don't have to fast because they should be happy that I am around. They can fast after I am gone and mourn for me."

* "How come your guys are harvesting raw grain on Shabat and violating Shabbat?" "I am the lord of Shabbat and can change the rules, so bugger off!"

* Or my favorite "Master, I want to go with you but I have to fulfill the Torah obligation and bury my father!" "Forget that. I am far more important than Torah. Let the dead bury their own!"

Seems to me that I recall JC praising the Pharisees that the jews should seek to be like they who sit in the seat of Moshe - the Grandson of Rabbi Hillel (A Pharisee) was the head of the Sanhedrin at the time (if it really happened around 25-35CE).

Jesus never violated God's Laws.

I believe the Pharisees came up with 260 - some odd rules, decreed by Men.

Jesus accused the Pharisees of weighing down people with their Laws.

Of course, as a Christian, I believe Jesus was God, and represents the divine Law and absolute standard for truth and justice.

I don't see how the excessive rules of the scribes and Pharisees can be defended?

I have more, and the excessive rules regarding the Sabbath are just a beginning. (As if God couldn't heal on the Sabbath, but an animal could be rescued from danger. :huh:)

[Drashi]

I know you have to believe that JC violate no laws nor led anyone astray. You did not anser any of my 3 examples above. Please adress any of them.

(BTW, as far as healing on Shabbat, there is no prohibition from faith healing or praying for the healing of another. So you can drop that one.)

So the problems I noted are:

1) JC eating on a fast day and justifying it because he wants his friends to have a good time. It is most likely Yom Kippur, which would have cut him off of Israel. (Matthew 11:9)
2) JC allowing his men to havest raw grain within a short walk from a community that would be more than willing to give them a free meal. (Matthew 12:1) (And he tells not to sin to feed yourself in Matthew 4:1)
3) JC telling someone to violate a specific mitzvah (burial)of the Torah because it would inconvience him. (Matthew 8:22)

A few others which are certainly Torah specific:

# He wrongs another by speech (Matthew 23:33)
# He gave misleading advice (Matthew 19:8)
# He shamed another (Matthew 26:34)
# He claimed he hated another (Matthew 23:33)
# He bore a grudge (Matthew 10:33)
# His teachings added or detracted from the Torah (Matthew 6:9)
# He cursed an isrealite (Matthew 23:33)
# He permitted others to worship him (Matthew 14:33)
# He did not rebuke a sinner (Matthew 12:1)
# He did not love his neighbor (Matthew 10:35)
# He was not merciful (Matthew 15:21) (A Gentile woman had to beg JC 3 times to heal her child until he gave in).

[Richbee]

I know you have to believe that JC violate no laws nor led anyone astray. You did not anser any of my 3 examples above. Please adress any of them.

(BTW, as far as healing on Shabbat, there is no prohibition from faith healing or praying for the healing of another. So you can drop that one.)

So the problems I noted are:

1) JC eating on a fast day and justifying it because he wants his friends to have a good time. It is most likely Yom Kippur, which would have cut him off of Israel. (Matthew 11:9)

2) JC allowing his men to havest raw grain within a short walk from a community that would be more than willing to give them a free meal. (Matthew 12:1) (And he tells not to sin to feed yourself in Matthew 4:1)

3) JC telling someone to violate a specific mitzvah (burial)of the Torah because it would inconvience him. (Matthew 8:22)




This one reply will serve to answer one or more objections! Your list represents hair splitting, nick picking and Pharisiac legalism and not God's Laws.

Case Study:

On a certain sabbath day, Christ and his disciples were passing through a grain field. The disciples, being hungry (Mt. 12:1), began to pluck ears of grain and to husk them with their hands (Lk. 6:1).

The Pharisees saw the Lord’s men, and began to question Jesus as to why his disciples did that which was “not lawful” on the sabbath. These are the basic facts of the episode. Let us analyze the case.

First, Christ himself was not directly accused of breaking the law on this occasion. Only the disciples were charged with the violation. But the Pharisees were hoping to hold Christ accountable for the conduct of his students. How many teachers today would be persuaded by such an argument?

Second, the truth is, however, not even the disciples actually violated the sabbath law of the Mosaic system. Hebrew law made provision for those in need to eat when they passed through a field of grain (Dt. 23:25; cf. Ruth 2:2-3). So it was not “stealing” that was the focus of the Pharisaic criticism. Rather, this was the crux of the matter. Over the years, Rabbinic tradition had evolved a host of infractions (some 39) that, allegedly, violated the law’s prohibition of work on the sabbath. (This matter has been discussed in detail in Emil Schurer’s, A History of the Jewish People in the Time of Jesus Christ (New York: Chas. Scribner’s Sons, 1891, II, pp. 96-105.)

One of these forbidden acts was “grinding,” which, by a nit-picking Pharisaical stretch, the disciples actions would be perceived to be doing. The activity, however, was hardly that of commercial grinding, as contemplated in the law.

Third, Jesus, in commenting upon the disciples’ conduct, plainly said they were “guiltless” (Mt. 12:7). The Greek term describes one who is not liable to blame in the matter of a crime (see W.E. Vine, Expository Dictionary, Iowa Falls: World, 1991, p. 367). The disciples broke no law.

Christ did not intend to let these arrogant, law-making Pharisees usurp the place of God in binding unauthorized burdens upon his men. With brilliant logic he demolished the charges of the opposition. Here was his procedure.

First, by an ad hominem argument (i.e., one designed to expose the inconsistency of an adversary) the Lord cited the case where David unlawfully ate of the tabernacle showbread (Mt. 12:4; cf. 1 Sam. 21:6). Since the Pharisees did not condemn David, who actually did what was “not lawful,” they were hopelessly illogical in censuring the Master’s men, who had breached no more than Pharisaic, uninspired traditions. This was a blistering exposure of their insincerity.

Second, Christ demonstrated that not all labor on the sabbath was condemned. The priests served (worked) on that holy day without any guilt whatever (Mt. 12:5; cf. Num. 28:10). The priestly “profaning” of that day was merely one of perception, not reality. What the priests did was authorized by God.

Jesus then said: “one greater than the temple is here” (v. 6). The expression “greater than the temple” is a clear affirmation of Christ’s authority as deity. If the priests, implementing Jehovah’s business, could work on the sabbath,(Ha! It was the Pharisees who were violating the Sabbabth! Nick pickin' legalists workin' on the Sabbath!) surely the disciples, operating on behalf of God, the Son, were equally blameless in their conduct.

Third, another argument which justified the disciples’ conduct was Christ’s use of the expression “lord of the sabbath,” with reference to himself. As an agent in the creation of the universe (Jn. 1:3; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2), certainly Jesus had the authority to regulate the use of the day of rest that followed the creation activity. One aspect of the term “lord” (kurios) signified “one who has full control of something” (F.W. Danker, Greek-English Lexicon, Chicago: University of Chicago, 2000, 577). It affirmed that Jesus had the right to exercise “authority over the rules that govern the Sabbath” (J.B. Green, S. McKnight, I.H. Marshall, Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels, Downers Grove, IL, InterVarsity, 1992, 489). Christ actually was contending that he had the authority to determine how the sabbath would be used, because he possessed the very nature of God.

Finally, the Lord argued for the legitimacy of the disciples’ conduct on the ground of the purpose of the sabbath law. It was designed originally for the benefit of man. It was an act of “mercy” from God to grant the Hebrews a respite one day a week – to rest the body and refresh the soul with religious exercises. The sabbath law was never intended to be a slavish regulation that functioned as an “end” within itself. Had the Pharisees recognized this principle, they would never have condemned these “guiltless” disciples of the Savior (Mt. 12:7).

And so, it is quite obvious, when all the facts are considered, that Jesus did not “violate” the sabbath, nor did he sanction the disciples’ violation of that sacred day. Those who take it upon themselves to be public teachers should study carefully before they make such irresponsible statements as that contained in the quotation under review.

Did Jesus violate the Sabbath (www.christiancourier.com/questions/sabbathViolationQuestion.htm)

[kofh2u]

Seems to me that Paul said that all of the "ritual" of the jews he hadto discard, treat like dung in order to accept a Christ into his life.

Sounds pretty clear to me - Accept JC as a deity and you cease to be a Jew.


Oh, the ritual...
Sure.
Once you accept that Christ IS the messiah that all the ritual pointed to, like a treasure map, who needs it...
.. except maybe Jews who still didn't read all the signs correctly.


If fact, he mentioned that the most ritual MUST cease as every stone of the temple would disappear with him.

[Menachem]

Oh, the ritual...
Sure.
Once you accept that Christ IS the messiah that all the ritual pointed to, like a treasure map, who needs it...
.. except maybe Jews who still didn't read all the signs correctly.

Or we read the signs correctly and it screamed Deuteronomy 13!

A Human deified....hrm..... that sounds like Avodah Zerah to me...

Yeah a treasure map that leads to the biggest treasure chest full of Fool's Gold..

If fact, he mentioned that the most ritual MUST cease as every stone of the temple would disappear with him.

Thats really funny since the actual Temple was still standing when he died...How do you rectify that one???

Also to note that Many of the Gospels and Paul's writings were written after the Temple was destroyed..How convenient they would put something like that in there....

[kofh2u]

eliyosef:

Or we read the signs correctly and it screamed Deuteronomy 13!

A Human deified....hrm..... that sounds like Avodah Zerah to me...

KOFHY:
You know the unspeakable name tells us about this, "I am what I am becoming"... immanent. Evolving.

Gen. 1:27 So God, (the theistic Almighty Universal Force), created man (as a conscious mind, enabled to image The Universal Reality, abstractly and mathematically), so created (the external theistic Universal Force), God, him (his own immanent reflection in man); male and female created he them.

eliyosef:
Yeah a treasure map that leads to the biggest treasure chest full of Fool's Gold.

KOFHY:
Most people, Jew or Christian, would say I am right, Torah is a treasure. Torah it is a map for human behavior with the greatest reward promised. Is it not?

eliyosef:
Thats really funny since the actual Temple was still standing when he died...How do you rectify that one???

KOFHY:
He knew the future, but the blind guides of the Jew did not.

He prophesied that the whole world would know the God of the Jew, and that his name in the gospel would be told everywhere on earth.



They continued to believe the daily sacrifce and the eternal lights of the menorah would go on forever.

Paul merely upstaged the rabbi' who find circumvention of temple ritual today.
Paul made the voluntary decision to adjust his ritual behavior to a coming reality. He based this upon his faith in Jesus' prediction, the temple would disappear anyhow.

eliyosef:
Also to note that Many of the Gospels and Paul's writings were written after the Temple was destroyed..How convenient they would put something like that in there.

KOFHY:
Lame.
Jews and Christians both have faith in their respective scriptures.

For either of us to imply that the other's writings are propaganda changes the discussion to secular examination of origins.

Neither can maintain a fool-proof insistence on the veracity of their "bible" except by faith.

So, it makes intelligent discussion impossible on this level.

Here we assume scripture is the support for your comments and mine. If we deny eachother on such grounds as you suggest, then there is no conversation, just fighting words.

It has no place here, that the Exodus of 2 million people left no trace, is totally illogical, is not provable, for example. But we both believe it, don't we?

Why is this concept of Jesus as homooiouios so difficult for Jews? The whole house of David... the entire house shall bd as God!

Zech. 12:8 In that day, (2K4 AD), shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David;

..and the HOUSE OF DAVID shall be as GOD,...

...(and I will write upon him my new name, [Christ]: [Rev 3:12]),...

[Centurion]

This argument itself is kind of worthless unless you are trying to save a soul for Christ, otherwise just except the fact that God, being the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exists, Jesus is the Messiah, he came, and is coming again, the whithertos, and the whyfores of it all are IRRELEVENT!!

:sigh: :smile:

[heaven]

This argument itself is kind of worthless unless you are trying to save a soul for Christ, otherwise just except the fact that God, being the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exists, Jesus is the Messiah, he came, and is coming again, the whithertos, and the whyfores of it all are IRRELEVENT!!

:sigh: :smile:

=======================================================

Yeshuakept the Torah, he was an orthodox jew, and He kept it perfectly,
so He is not anti Torah.

At the time of Yeshua, there had not been a prophet in 400 years and the
world remained in darkness, only the chosen people were chosen.

Yeshua took the message of the Torah and the God of Abraham, Isaac and
Jacob to the gentile world. His followers were given the commission tospread the gospels amid signs and wonders, so that the gates of heaven would be
opened to jew and gentile alike.

I would say that the spiritual condition of Israel was in need of uplifting and
the gentiles were in need of salvation. A God sized problem resolved by
Yeshua!
I hope this is helpful!:wink:

[Richbee]

Also to note that Many of the Gospels and Paul's writings were written after the Temple was destroyed..How convenient they would put something like that in there....

Written or released in final form after editting?

Funny too, the destruction of the Temple was the biggest event in the Jewish World since the destruction of the first Temple, of Moses on Mt. Sinai, and yet no mention is made of this fact.

Acts ends with Paul's trial in Rome around 62 A.D. and certainly before his death in and around 64 - 65 A.D. and before the death of Nero, 67 - 68 A.D.

No mention is made of the Temple.

Luke's Gospel is finished BEFORE Acts, possibly around 45 - 55 A.D.

John's gospel makes no mention of the Temple, but I believe this was released much later, after his death, and might have been as late as 90 A.D., and with good reason for all the trouble, and accounts for many moving to Greece or present day Turkey i.e. Ephesus, Antioch.

The Romans capture 1 Million slaves, in 70 A.D., or so I read.

[kofh2u]

Written or released in final form after editting?

Funny too, the destruction of the Temple was the biggest event in the Jewish World since the destruction of the first Temple, of Moses on Mt. Sinai, and yet no mention is made of this fact.

Acts ends with Paul's trial in Rome around 62 A.D. and certainly before his death in and around 64 - 65 A.D. and before the death of Nero, 67 - 68 A.D.

No mention is made of the Temple.

Luke's Gospel is finished BEFORE Acts, possibly around 45 - 55 A.D.

John's gospel makes no mention of the Temple, but I believe this was released much later, after his death, and might have been as late as 90 A.D., and with good reason for all the trouble, and accounts for many moving to Greece or present day Turkey i.e. Ephesus, Antioch.

The Romans capture 1 Million slaves, in 70 A.D., or so I read.

Very good points.

Of course, the best arguments for the veracity of the New Testament is common sense.

The earliest Christians were Jews who suffered at the hands of their own people, their own family, their neighbors, and then, at the hands of Romans, in places to which they had fled from Jewish persecution.
They endured physical persecution, religious persecution, and civil disrespect for the liberty of their freedom of speech.

Why?

The Jews who have held onto their Judaism, throughout the Middle Ages, know how often they had had to hide names and ritual dress to stay alive.

They, the Jews, experienced similar treatment among the Christianized Romans. But, at least they had one another, their family, neighbors. How much more difficult for their Christian-Jewish brothers and sisters who gave up everyone. But, certainly, their motives were not as simple as those of the Jews.

The Jews had culture, tradition, a long heritage, and family, and neighbors to help. Christians left everything, fled, were disowned. Shiva was held as if they had died. They were collected, like in the holocaust to come, and fed to lions.

Why?

Why would they tolerate invention of lies in the NT?

There was not money, power, safety, praise, glory, or the blessing of parents.

Obviously, they are credible witnesses to their own conviction that the facts in the Gospels were what propelled them into danger, poverty, and exile.

John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time
cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

[Menachem]

eliyosef:

Or we read the signs correctly and it screamed Deuteronomy 13!

A Human deified....hrm..... that sounds like Avodah Zerah to me...

KOFHY:
You know the unspeakable name tells us about this, "I am what I am becoming"... immanent. Evolving.

Gen. 1:27 So God, (the theistic Almighty Universal Force), created man (as a conscious mind, enabled to image The Universal Reality, abstractly and mathematically), so created (the external theistic Universal Force), God, him (his own immanent reflection in man); male and female created he them.

What is even funnier is that you read things into the text that arent even there...I think there is a prohibition by G-d from doing that, oh I forgot you christian me Jew..

eliyosef:
Yeah a treasure map that leads to the biggest treasure chest full of Fool's Gold.

KOFHY:
Most people, Jew or Christian, would say I am right, Torah is a treasure. Torah it is a map for human behavior with the greatest reward promised. Is it not?

Except i was talking about the NT not the Torah...or did you miss that one...

eliyosef:
Thats really funny since the actual Temple was still standing when he died...How do you rectify that one???

KOFHY:
He knew the future, but the blind guides of the Jew did not.

He prophesied that the whole world would know the God of the Jew, and that his name in the gospel would be told everywhere on earth.

We have a special chapter in the Torah for soothsayers and his type it Deuteronomy 13..



They continued to believe the daily sacrifce and the eternal lights of the menorah would go on forever.

Paul merely upstaged the rabbi' who find circumvention of temple ritual today.
Paul made the voluntary decision to adjust his ritual behavior to a coming reality. He based this upon his faith in Jesus' prediction, the temple would disappear anyhow.

We already knew in the Tanakh there would be a long time in which we would not have sacrifices...gee nothing new there...

You say paul upstaged the rabbi...Well then I say he was merely a wannabe who couldnt convince many Jews at all of his anti-Torah message...Gee is this a lame He said...She said...argument or what..

eliyosef:
Also to note that Many of the Gospels and Paul's writings were written after the Temple was destroyed..How convenient they would put something like that in there.

KOFHY:
Lame.
Jews and Christians both have faith in their respective scriptures.

For either of us to imply that the other's writings are propaganda changes the discussion to secular examination of origins.

Neither can maintain a fool-proof insistence on the veracity of their "bible" except by faith.

So, it makes intelligent discussion impossible on this level.

Here we assume scripture is the support for your comments and mine. If we deny eachother on such grounds as you suggest, then there is no conversation, just fighting words.

It has no place here, that the Exodus of 2 million people left no trace, is totally illogical, is not provable, for example. But we both believe it, don't we?

Why is this concept of Jesus as homooiouios so difficult for Jews? The whole house of David... the entire house shall bd as God!

Zech. 12:8 In that day, (2K4 AD), shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David;

..and the HOUSE OF DAVID shall be as GOD,...

...(and I will write upon him my new name, [Christ]: [Rev 3:12]),...

Wow that almost adds up until you actually translate the verse correctly:

ביום ההוא יגן ה' בעד יושב ירושלם והיה הנכשל בהם ביום ההוא כדויד ובית דויד כאלהים כמלאך ה' לפניהם

On that day Hashem will protect the population of Jerusalem; on that day the weakest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like divine beings, like an angel of Hashem before them...(Zechariah 12:8)

This almost instantly clears up when translated properly and when all of the words are put in there...

The context of the chapter seems to be that G-d will protect Jerusalem during a revolt against their foreign masters...Hrm...context helps doesn't it...

[kofh2u]

This argument itself is kind of worthless unless you are trying to save a soul for Christ, otherwise just except the fact that God, being the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exists, Jesus is the Messiah, he came, and is coming again, the whithertos, and the whyfores of it all are IRRELEVENT!!

:sigh: :smile:

"save a soul?"

No.
Matt. 10:24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.


These men are an example. They have been chosen. They are to illustrate the stiffness of their necks for example to the Christians.

It is in their conmitment to opposing any alternative understanding of scripture other than those from tradition that Christians are to take notice.

The lord is not come to fulfill orthodox understanding, to meet the interpretative dogmas of religious leaders, nor insist upon a messiah that is satisfactory to the doctrines of men erroneously conceived from the perspective from which they read the sacred writings.

The Jews here are demonstrating argument against, as opposed to evidence for the messiah.

[kofh2u]

Ely:
What is even funnier is that you read things into the text that arent even there...I think there is a prohibition by G-d (ELOHIYM ?) from doing that, oh I forgot you christian me Jew..


KOFHY:
No. me Hebrew-Christian, you pharisee-supporter.

No, the prohibition is against change the text, not interpretation of it.

The prohibition is more anti-Talmud, where people refer to another text as authoritative, as final, as the replacement of the actual words.

Brackets merely imply how what has been given by God is understood, not proclaimed nor substited, in the context of the very verse itself.

Brackets imply the words of the reader. Text indicates the words in the Word.

Books like the Talmud become the prime source of interpretation for Jews, making any reading of God's word secondary.


Ely:
We have a special chapter in the Torah for soothsayers and his (Jesus) type it Deuteronomy 13..

KOFHY:
We?
The stiffnecked Jews who resisted all the prophets?

Why single Jesus out? All the prophets were ignored, few kings followed the teaching of scripture. The Tanakh tells this plainly, does it not?
How is Judaism diffetent in ptactice today?

A serious look at scripture would tend to teach Jews that the religion that has held them together is also the same one that the prophets, again and again, said would lead them "awhoring after all the false Gods." The OT accuses them.

Ely:
We already knew in the Tanakh there would be a long time in which we would not have sacrifices...gee nothing new there...

KOFHY:
See! "We already knew"...

And yet, you did not believe Jesus.

In fact, you used it AGAINST him, as evidence against him, that HE could read Torah and understand:

"there would be a long time in which we would not have sacrifices" you say...

And true it has been!

Matt. 26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the
temple of God, and to build it in three days.
Matt. 26:62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

Ely:
You say paul upstaged the rabbi...Well then I say he was merely a wannabe who couldnt convince many Jews at all of his anti-Torah message...Gee is this a lame He said...She said...argument or what..

KOFHY:
Yes, "He said...She said.." for 2000 years, now.

I told you, the messiah comes to Israel upon the clouds from America.

Isa. 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud (from the Americas), and as the doves (of peace) to their (cathedral) windows?

Debate doesn't answer your ancient protests, only action, now.

Isa. 66:7 Before (Israeli Statehood) she travailed, she brought forth; before (sovereign nationality) her pain came (in Holocaust), she was delivered of a (Christian) man child.

Ely:
Wow that almost adds up until you actually translate the verse correctly:

"On that day Hashem (ELOHIYM [see Gen1:1]) will protect the population of Jerusalem; on that day the weakest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like (ELOHIYM [see Gen 1:1])... (ELOHIYM = GOD... or,) divine beings (?), like an angel (?) of Hashem before them"... (Zechariah 12:8)

This almost instantly clears up when translated properly and when all of the words are put in there...

KOFHY:
Can you explain how Elohiym means what you say here while it doesn't in Gen 1:1?

Gen. 1:1 In the beginning, Elohim [see Zechb12:8], (God, in English)

Ely:
The context (in the defensive interpretation of the Jews) of the chapter SEEMS to be that G-d (?- OR DID YOU SAY "divine beings?")
...will protect Jerusalem during a revolt (Masada?) against their foreign masters (Rome?)...

KOFHY:
Did God fail, or do you consider the temporary hanakah satisfactory to God and exemplary of his power?

Ely:
Hrm...context helps doesn't it...

KOFHY:

All my context is in context using brackets, yours are found in long explanations in Talmud and academics

[Menachem]

Ely:
What is even funnier is that you read things into the text that arent even there...I think there is a prohibition by G-d (ELOHIYM ?) from doing that, oh I forgot you christian me Jew..


KOFHY:
No. me Hebrew-Christian, you pharisee-supporter.

No me Jew(Gladly a supporter of the Rabbis), you Non-Jew.. No such thing as a "hebrew-christian(Kosher Pork ring a bell!)."



No, the prohibition is against change the text, not interpretation of it.

actually it says that you shall not take away from it nor add to it...so your addition of brackets would be an addition...or wouldnt it? Reading things in there that arent there...hmmm....

The prohibition is more anti-Talmud, where people refer to another text as authoritative, as final, as the replacement of the actual words.

Brackets merely imply how what has been given by God is understood, not proclaimed nor substited, in the context of the very verse itself.

Brackets imply the words of the reader. Text indicates the words in the Word.

So in other words you are reading things in there for your own benefit and not for the sake of G-d's word, Ok next Item...The Talmud...since it is the Oral Torah it is safe to say that that it is not adding anything since, well, it was given at Sinai with its written compliment...

Brackets to twist and bend G-d's word toward your understanding ok so you freely admit adding to it but you say its a different type of adding ok...we get the picture 1+1=471,900.

Books like the Talmud become the prime source of interpretation for Jews, making any reading of God's word secondary.

well since it is the Oral Torah....and it came from Sinai...then one must conclude it is the source of Interpretation for G-d's word.. for instance, How else would you define "work" when applied to Shabbat? Without an Oral Torah to answer the question the responses would get quite ludicrous


Ely:
We have a special chapter in the Torah for soothsayers and his (Jesus) type it Deuteronomy 13..

KOFHY:
We?
The stiffnecked Jews who resisted all the prophets?


LoL...the more correct answer to this is that we are careful not to follow the false prophets....G-d's word is very specific on this...

Why single Jesus out? All the prophets were ignored, few kings followed the teaching of scripture. The Tanakh tells this plainly, does it not?

He's not being singled out, All prophets were not ignored, Yet there were many who did follow the Teachings in the Torah, And the Tanakh does tell us plainly many things, but not what you are wanting it to tell us.

How is Judaism diffetent in ptactice today?

Gee I dont know, Humor me..

A serious look at scripture would tend to teach Jews that the religion that has held them together is also the same one that the prophets, again and again, said would lead them "awhoring after all the false Gods." The OT accuses them.

of course a personal attack on Judasim itself would be lame...Oh wait that was one...lol. Really! Name one instance after the first exile that the Jews went after other gods? And yes it must be the entire population not an isolated incident...if you can find one.

Ely:
We already knew in the Tanakh there would be a long time in which we would not have sacrifices...gee nothing new there...

KOFHY:
See! "We already knew"...

And yet, you did not believe Jesus.

In fact, you used it AGAINST him, as evidence against him, that HE could read Torah and understand:

"there would be a long time in which we would not have sacrifices" you say...

And true it has been!

Matt. 26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the
temple of God, and to build it in three days.
Matt. 26:62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?


I would almost believe that but instead this warning came several centuries before jesus was even born. I believe it was the Prophet Hoshea that put it something like this:

Hoshea 3:4. For the people of Israel shall remain many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without a pillar, and without an ephod, and without teraphim;

5. Afterwards shall the people of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.

seems to me that jesus did predict much of anything...

Ely:
You say paul upstaged the rabbi...Well then I say he was merely a wannabe who couldnt convince many Jews at all of his anti-Torah message...Gee is this a lame He said...She said...argument or what..

KOFHY:
Yes, "He said...She said.." for 2000 years, now.

I told you, the messiah comes to Israel upon the clouds from America.

Isa. 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud (from the Americas), and as the doves (of peace) to their (cathedral) windows?

Debate doesn't answer your ancient protests, only action, now.

Isa. 66:7 Before (Israeli Statehood) she travailed, she brought forth; before (sovereign nationality) her pain came (in Holocaust), she was delivered of a (Christian) man child.

LOLOLOL! This is as about as rediculous as Kosher Pork!

Ely:
Wow that almost adds up until you actually translate the verse correctly:

"On that day Hashem (ELOHIYM [see Gen1:1]) will protect the population of Jerusalem; on that day the weakest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like (ELOHIYM [see Gen 1:1])... (ELOHIYM = GOD... or,) divine beings (?), like an angel (?) of Hashem before them"... (Zechariah 12:8)

Hashem is the Name of G-d, hence that is G-d(it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out). And Elohim has many meanings as a hominym. For example it can be used to mean angels(Genesis 8:5) or it can be used as a term for powerful human beings(Genesis 23:6; Exodus 21:6), other gods and it is used for G-d. Here the word K'Elohim(like divine beings) is associated with K'Malak(like angels)...Using Psalm 8:5 as an example really shines light on the usage here...

This almost instantly clears up when translated properly and when all of the words are put in there...

KOFHY:
Can you explain how Elohiym means what you say here while it doesn't in Gen 1:1?

Gen. 1:1 In the beginning, Elohim [see Zechb12:8], (God, in English)

see Genesis 23:6 and Exodus 21:6 for its usage for human beings, and Psalm 8:5 for the usage for angels. It's a hominym...

Ely:
The context (in the defensive interpretation of the Jews) of the chapter SEEMS to be that G-d (?- OR DID YOU SAY "divine beings?")
...will protect Jerusalem during a revolt (Masada?) against their foreign masters (Rome?)...

KOFHY:
Did God fail, or do you consider the temporary hanakah satisfactory to God and exemplary of his power?


I love how you draw a straw man for me....Yeah Hashem(a.k.a G-d) will protect Jerusalem....

Did intelligence suddenly leave the room...Sheesh...This isnt exactly Rocket science....



Ely:
Hrm...context helps doesn't it...

KOFHY:

All my context is in context using brackets, yours are found in long explanations in Talmud and academics

all your extra additions to the text can be found in the brackets ...as for context we can find that in the Talmud.....Gee who do I believe??????Kofhy or G-d.....hrm....................................G-D!

[kofh2u]

The Talmud...since it is the Oral (?) Torah...

(WRITTEN AFTER CHRIST CRUCIFIED)

it is the source of Interpretation for G-d's word..

(THAT'S WHAT I SAID... IT REPLACES THE BIBLE WITHOUT BRACKETS)

Name one instance after the first exile that the Jews went after other gods?

(HOW? THE JEWS KILLED ALL THE PROPHETS THAT AROSE FOR 400 Years AFTER THE 2nd TEMPLE. THAT WAS WHY JESUS WAS YOUR LAST SACRIFICE, AND HE CONDEMNED YOU)





Hoshea 3:4. For the people of Israel, (AS REMINDED IN 32 AD), shall remain many (2000 years of) days (STARTING WITH THE TEARING DOWN THAT JESUS SAID WOULD COMMENCE WITH HIS APPEARANCE) without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without a pillar, and without an ephod, and without teraphim;

5. Afterwards (WHEN HIS GOSPEL ISPREACHED TO THE DONS OF GENTILES) shall the people of Israel return (1948 AD), and seek the Lord their God, and David their king (REV 5:5); and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days (WHEN THE SONS OF THESE STRANGERS DHALL BUILD UP YOUR WALLS).

Isa. 60:10 And the sons of strangers (from the Americas) shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister peace unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee (in Holocaust), but in my favour (restoring my chosen to Israel) have I had mercy on thee.


Elohim has many meanings as a hominym.

(THAT IS WHAT I TOLD YOU! Elohiym CAN mean what you mistakenly "bracketed" in your Talmud, OR, it can mean as it DOES mean what the verse says, just Elohim,... God,... as plainly written, without your decision about "angels.")


For example it CAN (if the Jews want) be used to mean "angels"...

(AGREED. WE DISAGREE IN MY BRACKETED COMMENTS AND YOUR TALMUD COMMENTS.)

...Gee who do I believe??????Kofhy or G-d....

(I TOLD YOU,...
... YOUR FAITH IS NOT AN ISSUE... YOUR SHAME COMES IN THE FUTURE RESOLUTION OF OUR DIFFERENCES, NOT BY DEBATE:

Zech. 12:12 And the land (of Israel) shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David, (the Hebrew-Christian community), apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan, (those who handed Jesus up), apart, and their wives apart;

Zech. 12:13 The family of the house of Levi, (the Cohanim), apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei, (the Rabbi of today), apart, and their wives apart;

Zech. 12:14 All the families (of the twelve tribes of Israel) that
remain (scattered throughout the world), every family apart, and their wives apart.





Ely says:

" Elohim has many meanings as a hominym. "

KOFHY:
Then why fault me for using it's major application,...?

.... the same meaning for Elohim used in Genesis 1:1??


Zech. 12:8 In that day, (2K4 AD), shall the LORD (ELOHIM) defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, (ELOHIM)...

(Now, notice, it is the Jewish decision use the word Elohim to mean "angel"... i
... for ELOHIM which is all that is written in this passage.)







.

[Menachem]

Ely says:

" Elohim has many meanings as a hominym. "

KOFHY:
Then why fault me for using it's major application,...?

.... the same meaning for Elohim used in Genesis 1:1??


Zech. 12:8 In that day, (2K4 AD), shall the LORD (ELOHIM) defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, (ELOHIM)...

(Now, notice, it is the Jewish decision use the word Elohim to mean "angel"... i
... for ELOHIM which is all that is written in this passage.)







.


The context demands otherwise....thats why!

It was the context's decision not mine...

[kofh2u]

The context demands otherwise....thats why!

It was the context's decision not mine...


BUT... ought u use brackets?
... like me?

People think God definitely said your hominym...

... BUT, God only say "Elohim."

ELIYOSEF:
"On that day Hashem will protect the population of Jerusalem; on that day the weakest among them will be like David, ...

...and the house of David will be like ELOHIM... (Jews say use this hominym: "divine beings, like an angel of Hashem")...

... before them...(Zechariah 12:8)"

[Menachem]

U jew, me Hebrew-Christian.

Me,...? u ok, me ok... not my job change u.

hebrew-christian no such thing there is...

You "think" about Elohim, u believe alternative, hominym, more better. fit your context of understanding.

ok. me do same thing.

BUT... ought u use brackets?
... like me?

People think God definitely say words of your hominym...

... BUT, God only say "Elohim."

On that day Hashem will protect the population of Jerusalem; on that day the weakest among them will be like David, ...

...and the house of David will be like ELOHIM... (Jews say use this hominym: "divine beings, like an angel of Hashem")...

... before them...(Zechariah 12:8)


me thinks u cant defend position so you go to silliness...Tah Tah!

[Goose]

No. me Hebrew-Christian...
:ahem:

Oh man...

:rofl:

I wonder if he can even speak Hebrew. These types are clearly delusional. It's statements like that, that fuel miso-judaism.

[Jayrok]

Jesus was anti-torah?? :hrm: I've never heard that one :huh:


Matthew 5 (NASB)
17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.

having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

So why does Paul teach against what Jesus taught?

Paul said Jesus canceled and abolished the written code/the law with all its regulations and commandments. And that the law was opposed to us and a burden to us.. Jesus clearly didn't teach this..

Heaven and earth hasn't passed away.. perhaps the mosaic laws are still in effect and you christians shouldn't be working on saturday and eating shrimp...

This forum is for theists only. Please read the forum guidelines.

[Jezz]

I wonder if he can even speak Hebrew. These types are clearly delusional.
The Jews who returned from exile in Babylon couldn't speak Hebrew. They had to get Ezra to translate the Torah for them.

From that time on, most Jews couldn't speak Hebrew. This was the case in the first century, and even up until the Hebrew language was resurrected when forming the new state of Israel in 1948.

Were all those millions of non-Hebrew-speaking Hebrews delusional? :wink:

[Goose]

That straw man of yours could stand, but I never said one has to speak Hebrew in order to be one.

Good ol' Jezz with his distortions and straw man tactics again.

[kofh2u]

Jezz:
This forum is for theists only. Please read the forum guidelines.


Oh, Jezz, an unbeliever?

Well, he did raise a question that confused even Peter.

Peter, at first, said the Hebrew Christians needed to continue the ritual of Judaism, especially the dietary laws, and circumcism, and such.

Paul reasoned with him, that Jesus had sheep from two folds.

The long practiced rituals were for a purpose, such as denial of pork, a temptation in that it tastes sooooo good, stuff like that.

These rituals were focused on teaching about the "spirits" within, that subconsciously motivate behavior.
The temptations of the flesh were made a reflective matter. The Law made people think, realize their egomania that restricts charity, their greed that drives business seven days,... all those Freudian Subconscious drives, urges, desires, wants, and the like.

Before Christ, the law set rules for the archetypal human subconscious SELF. Order and ritual and rules for civil behavior taught very uncivilized men to submit to a morality, to restrain their Libido, and for the patriarchical dominance over wives, to restrain the sexual license of women who will always turn an economic society into awhoring after Ashtoreh by Baal.

((((((((((((Isa. 3:16 Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walkingmand mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:
Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the
head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret
parts.
In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round
tires like the moon,
The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,... The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the
headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,... The rings, and nose jewels,....The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,... The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the
veils.

Jesus manifested human Conscience as model for people to observe. He focused us on pro-active, positive reinforcement that for gentiles made the Torah schooling passe'... and, for the intelligent Jew of his day, an example of the "finished" product God was developing since the sixth "day" of creation... to think in the image of God... about the IDOL of God, and worship mankind, your neighboring humans, His image.

The true Christian... the "circumcised in the "heart," those submitting their sevenfold psyche to the power of Conscience, the spirit which was Holy in Christ, they don't need PRACTICE, they are proven of these laws, the final exam is over, no practice necessary... only evidence of passing the grade!

Jesus came to demonstrate the behavior the Torah hoped to instruct.

Jews, like those here who haven't accepted this message of Jesus, may continue practicing the psychological instructiion to their psyche.'

Until they, the Jews and unsaved gentiles, atheists, all, recognize that the Conscience of Jesus is the same one we have available to us.
Til then, they might try Torah until the messiah explains it personally to them:


Rev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars, (the sevenfold
spirit of the psyche: Id, Libido, Ego, Anima, Self, Harmony, Superego):

[kofh2u]

That straw man of yours could stand, but I never said one has to speak Hebrew in order to be one.

Good ol' Jezz with his distortions and straw man tactics again.

Wow!

Jezz really slapped you up the side of the head.....

Hahaaa..

[heaven]

I read the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament as a continuum, ongoing revelation!

I believe a possible "danger" exists in that the jews are forever searching out Messiahs,
none of which is the real mccoy, especially due to the prophecies. This could lead them away from the Living God!

[Jezz]

That straw man of yours could stand, but I never said one has to speak Hebrew in order to be one.

Good ol' Jezz with his distortions and straw man tactics again.
Goose, if you're going to persist in accusing me of distorting your words, I'm going to insist that you back up your allegation. Rather than do so here and disrupt your thread, I have started a new thread (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43775) where you can do so. And if you can't back them up, then please cease and desist from making such allegations, as is proper and decent behaviour. :smile:

[shunyadragon]

I read the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament as a continuum, ongoing revelation!

I believe a possible "danger" exists in that the jews are forever searching out Messiahs,
none of which is the real mccoy, especially due to the prophecies. This could lead them away from the Living God!
Actually historically more Christians have looked for messiahs than Jews, and the result has been when they are disapointed there are more churches. Most Jews are very traditional and the messiah is the last thing they expect. In general, both Jews and Christians, like Moslems, set apocalyptic and supernatural standards that pretty much guarentee that the messiah will not be accepted in the same manner as 1st century Jews.

[kofh2u]

I read the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament as a continuum, ongoing revelation!

I believe a possible "danger" exists in that the jews are forever searching out Messiahs,
none of which is the real mccoy, especially due to the prophecies. This could lead them away from the Living God!

Paradigms are boxes men create with their minds. They then live in that box for their whole life. It has become trite, today, in recognizing this sociological fact to say, "Think outside of the box, man."

But, thinking outside is living outside, alone. Taking others with you can be dangerous, as all the prophets discovered. Powers are in the box, holding things together, Status Quo.

For the Jews today, the box is different than in 32 AD. What Jews wanted was a different type of deliverance then, a messiah who will bring slightly different gifts to them. In 32 AD, this was what those in the box of that time expected from their messiah, among other things:

John 5:39 Search the scriptures (as you do); for in them ye THINK ye have eternal life: and they (are not about the things you think, but) are they which testify of me.

[Drashi]

I know you have to believe that JC violate no laws nor led anyone astray. You did not anser any of my 3 examples above. Please adress any of them.

(BTW, as far as healing on Shabbat, there is no prohibition from faith healing or praying for the healing of another. So you can drop that one.)

So the problems I noted are:

1) JC eating on a fast day and justifying it because he wants his friends to have a good time. It is most likely Yom Kippur, which would have cut him off of Israel. (Matthew 11:9)
2) JC allowing his men to havest raw grain within a short walk from a community that would be more than willing to give them a free meal. (Matthew 12:1) (And he tells not to sin to feed yourself in Matthew 4:1)
3) JC telling someone to violate a specific mitzvah (burial)of the Torah because it would inconvience him. (Matthew 8:22)

A few others which are certainly Torah specific:

# He wrongs another by speech (Matthew 23:33)
# He gave misleading advice (Matthew 19:8)
# He shamed another (Matthew 26:34)
# He claimed he hated another (Matthew 23:33)
# He bore a grudge (Matthew 10:33)
# His teachings added or detracted from the Torah (Matthew 6:9)
# He cursed an isrealite (Matthew 23:33)
# He permitted others to worship him (Matthew 14:33)
# He did not rebuke a sinner (Matthew 12:1)
# He did not love his neighbor (Matthew 10:35)
# He was not merciful (Matthew 15:21) (A Gentile woman had to beg JC 3 times to heal her child until he gave in).
Nobody has addressed these points yet. There was a vague reference to point number 2 by one who missed the point but nothing more.

[Richbee]

Nobody has addressed these points yet. There was a vague reference to point number 2 by one who missed the point but nothing more.

Just more legalistic hubris, and man made fictions. You sound like a Pharisee!

Consider just one, Matthew 6:9, where Jesus instructs that it is better to pray in private, (6.6) and better not to babble like pagans. (6.7)

Sound advice, and better than being a hypocrite like the scribes, Pharisses and Sadducess, some of whom preferred to parade in public, praying out loud so that everyone would hear them. Jesus instructs to pray to God like a Father.

No infraction what so ever, just sound advice! See Malachi 2:10, Jeremiah 3:19.

Matthew 12.1 - already covered, there was no sin committed.

Matthew 23:23 - Isrealite?

Try Isrealites - plural, a whole brood of vipers. (See 2 Chronicles 36:15,16) Jesus warned of the pending doom on that generation, fulfilled in 70 A.D., with the desruction of the Jerusalem and the Temple. See Matthew 23:37 - Jesus would prefer to save the people of Jeruslaem like a hen would save her chicks.

Who is greater than Moses, Deuteronomy 18:14-22?

[Richbee]

Nobody has addressed these points yet. There was a vague reference to point number 2 by one who missed the point but nothing more.

This fun, so why not one more, Matthew 10:35 - you mention not loving neighbors, but this is often quoted as saying that Jesus taught to hate parents.

Did Jesus teach his disciples to hate their parents?

Some claim that Jesus taught his disciples to hate their mother and father. If true, that would obviously make Jesus to be an immoral and unethical teacher, immoral, since one of the Commandments is to honor one's mother and father. Understanding the Jewish background to Jesus' teaching puts an entirely different light on his words.

Jesus' statements in question are:

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn "'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me" (Matthew 10:34-37).

and

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:26)

These sayings of Jesus reflect a common Jewish understanding of the day.
Jewish understanding was that the messianic era would be preceded by a time of disharmony in family and social relationships. By these sayings, Jesus was announcing the messianic age and his own messiahship.

In fact, Jesus was quoting from the Jewish prophet Micah who spoke of the messianic age in these terms:

Do not trust a neighbor; put no confidence in a friend. Even with her who lies in your embrace be careful of your words. For a son dishonors his father, a daughter rises up against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--a man's enemies are the members of his own household (Micah 7:5-6).

Micah had been speaking of judgment that was to come upon Judah because of her corruption and moral failure. This judgment, Micah previously said, would take the form of a siege by an outside enemy. In this context, social relationships would fall apart and even close relatives would no longer trust one another. This social deterioration would be the end result of Judah's immorality and sin. In Second Temple and rabbinic Jewish literature, this same passage and similar descriptions characterize the final "day of the Lord."

Jesus affirmed the commandment to honor parents in word and action:

Matthew 15:4-6:

For God said, "Honor your father and mother," and "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death." But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever help you might otherwise have received form me is a gift devoted to God," he is not to "honor his father" with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition."

Matthew 19:17-19:

"If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." "Which ones?" the man inquired." Jesus replied, "Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself."

Mark 7:10-13:

For Moses said, "Honor your father and your mother," and "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death." But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: "Whatever help you might otherwise have received form me is Corban (that is, a gift devoted to God)," then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down.

John 19:25-27:

Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to this mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.

[Richbee]

Nobody has addressed these points yet. There was a vague reference to point number 2 by one who missed the point but nothing more.

O.K. one more for the fun of it:

Matthew 19:8

Jesus quotes Moses on divorce!

Ha!

Read the whole quote in context of Matthew 8, 9.

Now go and Learn! :lol:

[Menachem]

The Talmud...since it is the Oral (?) Torah...

(WRITTEN AFTER CHRIST CRUCIFIED)


Yes it is the Oral Torah....Written afterward to prevent losing it, in oral form way before jesus was even born...

Now you adding words to my statements, you just like adding things that arent there dont you

it is the source of Interpretation for G-d's word..

(THAT'S WHAT I SAID... IT REPLACES THE BIBLE WITHOUT BRACKETS)

No it is not replacing the bible with out "brackets(your method of addition)" It icompliments the Torah with the Oral explanation..Nothing more...

Name one instance after the first exile that the Jews went after other gods?

(HOW? THE JEWS KILLED ALL THE PROPHETS THAT AROSE FOR 400 Years AFTER THE 2nd TEMPLE. THAT WAS WHY JESUS WAS YOUR LAST SACRIFICE, AND HE CONDEMNED YOU)

I fail to see where you cited this so called incident....are you saying jesus was a sacrifice then you would be going against the Torah(Deuteronomy 12:31) Human sacrifices are prohibited..



Hoshea 3:4. For the people of Israel, (AS REMINDED IN 32 AD), shall remain many (2000 years of) days (STARTING WITH THE TEARING DOWN THAT JESUS SAID WOULD COMMENCE WITH HIS APPEARANCE) without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without a pillar, and without an ephod, and without teraphim;

So you admit jesus didnt predict anything ok...next up...

[/quote]5. Afterwards (WHEN HIS GOSPEL ISPREACHED TO THE DONS OF GENTILES) shall the people of Israel return (1948 AD), and seek the Lord their God, and David their king (REV 5:5); and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days (WHEN THE SONS OF THESE STRANGERS DHALL BUILD UP YOUR WALLS).

Isa. 60:10 And the sons of strangers (from the Americas) shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister peace unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee (in Holocaust), but in my favour (restoring my chosen to Israel) have I had mercy on thee.[/quote]


LoL... are you meaning for the rest of us to laugh or what?


Elohim has many meanings as a hominym.

(THAT IS WHAT I TOLD YOU! Elohiym CAN mean what you mistakenly "bracketed" in your Talmud, OR, it can mean as it DOES mean what the verse says, just Elohim,... God,... as plainly written, without your decision about "angels.")


For example it CAN (if the Jews want) be used to mean "angels"...

(AGREED. WE DISAGREE IN MY BRACKETED COMMENTS AND YOUR TALMUD COMMENTS.)

you mean your bracketed additions...I would disagree with those any and every day...

No not if the Jews want...such is a ad hominem...

The Context of the passage screams another usage for the word K'elohim especially when it is used in association with k'Malak(like angels)

Moral of the story is "Learn Hebrew!" The english translations you use are horrible..

...Gee who do I believe??????Kofhy or G-d....

(I TOLD YOU,...
... YOUR FAITH IS NOT AN ISSUE... YOUR SHAME COMES IN THE FUTURE RESOLUTION OF OUR DIFFERENCES, NOT BY DEBATE:

first you insult my religion then you say it is not the issue...pick one will you?

My shame...LOL...

Zech. 12:12 And the land (of Israel) shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David, (the Hebrew-Christian community), apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan, (those who handed Jesus up), apart, and their wives apart;

Zech. 12:13 The family of the house of Levi, (the Cohanim), apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei, (the Rabbi of today), apart, and their wives apart;

Zech. 12:14 All the families (of the twelve tribes of Israel) that
remain (scattered throughout the world), every family apart, and their wives apart.

all one can do is sit and laugh..

[Menachem]

anyhow not to hijack the thread any longer lets give it back to goose and his original theme....Goose...lets have our first contestant shall we!

[kofh2u]

Actually historically more Christians have looked for messiahs than Jews, and the result has been when they are disapointed there are more churches. Most Jews are very traditional and the messiah is the last thing they expect. In general, both Jews and Christians, like Moslems, set apocalyptic and supernatural standards that pretty much guarentee that the messiah will not be accepted in the same manner as 1st century Jews.




Excellent point.

The Jews have a traditional comment concerning the messiah, they ask, "If the studends assemble, won't the master (teacher) come?"

The messiah will not entreat believers by supernatural miracles, he doesn't need to.

He'll have the Urim and Thummim won't he?
Ex 28:30,

He'll have the "Hidden Manna," won't he?
Rev 2:17

He'll have the Iron Rod, won't he?
Rev 2:27

He'll have the keyes to hell and death, won't he?
Rev 1:18

He'll rationally explain Genesis 11 when the experts can not, won't he?

He'll rationally explain Ezekiel 37, the dry bones, won't he?'


Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Luke 24:32 And they said one to another, "Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?"

[kofh2u]

Nobody has addressed these points yet. There was a vague reference to point number 2 by one who missed the point but nothing more.

In regard to these century old arguments against the behavior of Jesus, coming from the Jews who sacrificed him in the stead of the Nation, as they thought...

1) Politics and religion are not discussed in polite society, for just the reason we see here.

No manner of answer will be needed at all for Christians.
While all possible answers will be denied and rejected by Jews.

2) Nevertheless, Jesus said we "can NOT be saved by the law."

This is demonstrated here! The Law will be used against Jesus, against Christians, me, and you Jews, too.

Like politics, dirt, true or false, will be smeared by the opposition.


And, nothing will save you, even you Jews here, from those dogs who encompass you at judgement day. Can any Jew cast the first stone?

3) However, you have a case against the son of man. We can not just ignor you Jews in judging Jesus.

4) In defense, we must remember and confess that the son of man DID "come eating and drinking, a wine bibber and a glutton."

You definitely got Him there!

5) Also, we must admit that Jesus, himself, denied that he, himself, was good. He said, "Why call ye me good? Only the Father is good."

6) We must look at his example and his message, as Jews, too. You, non- Christian Jews, are not good either.
You, individually, are not better at the duty of the Law than he was.
None are without sin.
All Jews, including Jesus, the son of man, fall short.

7) That was his message.!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get it?

By the example of His Transfiguration,...
.... becoming the Son of God...
we saved inspite of violation ov the Law.

Jesus, the son of man, like you, you Jews and all unsaved gentiles, need transformation.

You need salvation beyond the LAW.
The Law will not save the Jew.
The condemned Jesus.
Condemnation is in the Law, not salvation.

A born again mental perspective will save. That was the bottom line of 32AD.

Talk to Jesus and Moses as He spoke with Moses and Elijah!

Be transfigured in your heart!

That WAS the point.

"Born again" removes all violation of the Law,... a new slate.

It cleared the drinking and gluttony from the slate of even the son of man, why not you, Ely, and all Israel?

Luke 9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was
altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

Luke 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses
and Elias:

[Drashi]

Ok, this thread is getting really wild. Maybe I posted way to many sins. That is certainly too much food for thought. The responses seem to go from "well, he was a man in order to show..." and "you are merging political and theological". Another brings up praying out loud, which I never brought up, and then skims over any the rest.

So let's just focus on one thing.

Just one.

The Torah is very clear one the process of burying a Jew, who must do it, and the period of observance. The Torah is also clear that one who intentionally misleads another to sin takes part in that sin, and one who observes the sin and does nothing is as one who did it.

Jesus wants to leave town. A man says that his father just died. Jesus doesn't want to wait around and tells the man to let the dead bury the dead, which is a common modern phrase for "let go of the past and move on with your life".

Jesus led the man astray.

One of the greatest forms of honor that you can do is to do something good for another where they cannot repay you. To do the required burial of a parent, you are doing something for which they can never repay, and to honor them in the way that the Torah states it the greatest honor that a Jew can do for their parent: to keep the Torah as it says concerning burial and honor, and to provide for them in a way that they can never repay.

So just this one thing.

Did Jesus lead the man astray through the recommendation that he violate the Torah concerning the mitzvot of burial and honoring one's parents (2 separate issues, I know, but let's see if we can act like it is one).

[kofh2u]

Ok, this thread is getting really wild. Maybe I posted way to many sins. That is certainly too much food for thought. The responses seem to go from "well, he was a man in order to show..." and "you are merging political and theological". Another brings up praying out loud, which I never brought up, and then skims over any the rest.

So let's just focus on one thing.

Just one.

The Torah is very clear one the process of burying a Jew, who must do it, and the period of observance. The Torah is also clear that one who intentionally misleads another to sin takes part in that sin, and one who observes the sin and does nothing is as one who did it.

Jesus wants to leave town. A man says that his father just died. Jesus doesn't want to wait around and tells the man to let the dead bury the dead, which is a common modern phrase for "let go of the past and move on with your life".

Jesus led the man astray.

One of the greatest forms of honor that you can do is to do something good for another where they cannot repay you. To do the required burial of a parent, you are doing something for which they can never repay, and to honor them in the way that the Torah states it the greatest honor that a Jew can do for their parent: to keep the Torah as it says concerning burial and honor, and to provide for them in a way that they can never repay.

So just this one thing.

Did Jesus lead the man astray through the recommendation that he violate the Torah concerning the mitzvot of burial and honoring one's parents (2 separate issues, I know, but let's see if we can act like it is one).


You are right, Drash.

The message was Ye must be TRANSFIGURED!

Jesus came eating and drinking, a wine bibber and glutton, the son of men.

He was compromised by reality in trying to advise another, too.
The Law put him on the horns of dilemma.
(Should he say forget the burial and miss the opportunity of the messiah, the purpose of the Torah?)

Like you, and everyone else, shall we put salvation second to responsibilities like ritual law?

None are good Jesus said. "Why call ye me, 'Good,' " Jesus, at that time merely the son of man, asked.

You got him!

You got him, the son of man, on this one Drash.

Torah doesn't save you, or the son of man, it can only compromise and condemn.

So, "Ye MUST be born again." Transfigured.

Changed, in a twinkling.

Changed from son of man to Son of God.

Jesus was baptized by John, but he was born again, too.

Jesus was "Born again" just as he asks you, Drash, and Jews and gentiles everywhere, Ye must be TRANSFIGURED!
Transfigured, as he himself, was transfigured.

In Born Again, Transfiguration, we become saved, inspite of previous violation of the Law.








Luke 9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was
altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

Luke 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias.

[Richbee]

Ok, this thread is getting really wild. Maybe I posted way to many sins. That is certainly too much food for thought. The responses seem to go from "well, he was a man in order to show..." and "you are merging political and theological". Another brings up praying out loud, which I never brought up, and then skims over any the rest.

So let's just focus on one thing.

Just one.

The Torah is very clear one the process of burying a Jew, who must do it, and the period of observance. The Torah is also clear that one who intentionally misleads another to sin takes part in that sin, and one who observes the sin and does nothing is as one who did it.

Jesus wants to leave town. A man says that his father just died. Jesus doesn't want to wait around and tells the man to let the dead bury the dead, which is a common modern phrase for "let go of the past and move on with your life".

Jesus led the man astray.

One of the greatest forms of honor that you can do is to do something good for another where they cannot repay you. To do the required burial of a parent, you are doing something for which they can never repay, and to honor them in the way that the Torah states it the greatest honor that a Jew can do for their parent: to keep the Torah as it says concerning burial and honor, and to provide for them in a way that they can never repay.

So just this one thing.

Did Jesus lead the man astray through the recommendation that he violate the Torah concerning the mitzvot of burial and honoring one's parents (2 separate issues, I know, but let's see if we can act like it is one).

You're referring to: Matthew 8:18-22

18 "When Jesus saw the crowd around him, he gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake....

21 "Another disciple said to him "Lord, let me first go and bury my Father".

22 But Jesus said, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."

I don't have a quick and easy answer here, but I note the order in verse 18, and the context of the lesson was the cost of following Jesus, and this man was a disciple.

Also, this is repeated in Luke 9:59-60. Next is Luke 10, the sending out of the 72.

Just my opinion, but this is right in the middle of Jesus' ministry, and Jesus is often reapeating, "FOLLOW ME.....", and in both gospels there is much work and healing. Indeed, Life is more important than death! See Matthew 9, Jesus calls Matthew makes him quit collecting taxes. What would Caesar say?

[kofh2u]

You're referring to: Matthew 8:18-22

18 "When Jesus saw the crowd around him, he gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake....

21 "Another disciple said to him "Lord, let me first go and bury my Father".

22 But Jesus said, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."

I don't have a quick and easy answer here, but I note the order in verse 18, and the context of the lesson was the cost of following Jesus, and this man was a disciple.

Also, this is repeated in Luke 9:59-60. Next is Luke 10, the sending out of the 72.

Just my opinion, but this is right in the middle of Jesus' ministry, and Jesus is often reapeating, "FOLLOW ME.....", and in both gospels there is much work and healing. Indeed, Life is more important than death! See Matthew 9, Jesus calls Matthew makes him quit collecting taxes. What would Caesar say?


The point seems clearly to illustrate the realities of our human condition.

It is/was a lesson to Jews who think the Law can be satisfied. Who condemn people by using the Law as an instrument of determining "good behavior vs bad behavior," black and white justice.

The prostitute with the rock throwers is another instance where Jesus illustrates this lesson.

The Law is subordinate to the mercy God wants to preceed out of it. The Law is not to be placed before God's mercy, but after it.

So, Jesus is demonstrating the same idea as Aesop, in his fable of the son/father/donkey. People found fault, no matter who rode the donkey, letting the other walk.
Then, even when father and son both rode, people expressed sympathy for the poor donkey.
Ehen both walked, they called them stupid!

Go figure, you can't win.

So, again, I remind the Jews that Jesus moved to a higher plane of consciousness.

He, previously the son of man, was "born again" in spirit during the Transfiguration.

Any infraction of Law these Jews charge against him is wadhed clean. Jesus became a new creature, Homooiusios.

All sins are null and void.
That's the born again ticket. All, everyone, Jew and Gentile, needs one to ride sinlessly into eternity. For none are good, except the Father, as Jesus said!.

But, they don't get it, as you say. They use literalism against but ignor when it is appropriate.

[Drashi]

I have no Idea what is the theology of Kofh2u. Sounds like a combination of Christian/Religious-Science/New-Age rolled into one. I really have difficulty following such a train of thought. Sorry.

As far as Richbee goes, the idea of "disciple" goes nowhere. If the person was a Jew, then Jesus told him to violate the Torah. If the person was a non-Jew, it would not have been a problem because the Greco-Roman form of burial/mourning would not have gotten in the way of a quick get-away.

Yes, I do agree that it means that if one wants to accept Jesus and follow him, he needs to obey him in all things. And this includes violating explicite Torah edicts. And this is fine for the non-Jew, but for the Jew, it is a very grave sin (pun intended!)

[kofh2u]

I have no Idea what is the theology of Kofh2u. Sounds like a combination of Christian/Religious-Science/New-Age rolled into one. I really have difficulty following such a train of thought. Sorry.

As far as Richbee goes, the idea of "disciple" goes nowhere. If the person was a Jew, then Jesus told him to violate the Torah. If the person was a non-Jew, it would not have been a problem because the Greco-Roman form of burial/mourning would not have gotten in the way of a quick get-away.

Yes, I do agree that it means that if one wants to accept Jesus and follow him, he needs to obey him in all things. And this includes violating explicite Torah edicts. And this is fine for the non-Jew, but for the Jew, it is a very grave sin (pun intended!)

Jesus said that not the smallest part of the law was to be violated, and that the degree of the breach did not matter. Men sin, even in the smallest of details, and are just as accountable a you hold Jesus, here.

So, 99% are without sin, the other 1% lies.

This includes the son of man, himself, a wine bibber and a glutton. You are right!

How hard is that t understand. You find him guilty in the smallest items here. And, you are correct.

But, the purpose of the law was self introspection. Admit it! You didn't do, didn'tact 100% the way you know you ought.

Self-examination. Pure and simple.

The object is/was attitude change.
The goal is/was replacement of that one of twrlve predispositions of mind innate in us all.

When this transformation takes place, change in attitude, we are the finished product of Torah.

We are self actualized, in the mode of Abraham Maslow's definition: we are among the few people who are sane.
We are sons of God, as intended.


Jesus, the son of man, the sinner, was "born again." He proved it at the cross, that he was steadfast in face of death. He was transfigured... changed... a new creature, differnert from other men, as was Noah.

Christians understand this. The NT explains it. Judaism predicts it.

You cop out by saying what I AM, refusing to discuss what I SAY.





Prophecy:
Matt. 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be
taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

[Drashi]

Jesus said that not the smallest part of the law was to be violated, and that the degree of the breach did not matter. Men sin, even in the smallest of details, and are just as accountable a you hold Jesus, here. So since he violated it even to the smallest degree, you are willing to admit that he was not able to be keep the Torah. It can be done, and has been done by others, but it takes work. This isn't to say that people don't stumble and perform a sin unintentially. Unintentional sin is one thing that we stumble over. But I was presenting the act of an intentional sin by Jesus.

This includes the son of man, himself, a wine bibber and a glutton. You are right!I am glad you admit that he sinned. We can stop here, but I'll let you go on.

You find him guilty in the smallest items here. And, you are correct.Some of these that I mentioned are not "small" at all, and some have the proclamation that the person is cut off from Israel. And it is almost to say that "it was just a little bit of adultery, about a dozen times" are but a few small things.

But, the purpose of the law was self introspection. Admit it! It isn't.

The Purpose of Torah (which you inaccurately call "Law" based on a poor Greek translation) is (1) Obedience and (2) direction. "Self Introspection" is something that one certainly does, but it is not at expence of Torah observance, which is the purpose. To use new-age/New-Though context to view that which lies outside of it causes a twisted view of the thing itself and thus re-interpretation

Jesus, the son of man, the sinner, was "born again." I think you just answered this thread.

Jesus the sinner.

// END PROGRAM

[kofh2u]

So since he violated it even to the smallest degree, you are willing to admit that he was not able to be keep the Torah. It can be done, and has been done by others, but it takes work. This isn't to say that people don't stumble and perform a sin unintentially. Unintentional sin is one thing that we stumble over. But I was presenting the act of an intentional sin by Jesus.

I am glad you admit that he sinned. We can stop here, but I'll let you go on.

Some of these that I mentioned are not "small" at all, and some have the proclamation that the person is cut off from Israel. And it is almost to say that "it was just a little bit of adultery, about a dozen times" are but a few small things.

It isn't.

The Purpose of Torah (which you inaccurately call "Law" based on a poor Greek translation) is (1) Obedience and (2) direction. "Self Introspection" is something that one certainly does, but it is not at expence of Torah observance, which is the purpose. To use new-age/New-Though context to view that which lies outside of it causes a twisted view of the thing itself and thus re-interpretation

I think you just answered this thread.

Jesus the sinner.

// END PROGRAM


Whoooooooooooo...BEGINNING OF PROGRAM!

Yes, the son of man violated Torah.

But, NOT the son of God.









Born again is The Way.

And no man cometh to the father except by the same route as the son of man who was transfigured into the first born Son of God.

[Drashi]

Yes, the son of man violated Torah.I agree. Jesus violated Torah. :sigh:

[kofh2u]

I agree. Jesus violated Torah. :sigh:

He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.


The first premise of the son of God who followed after the Transfiguration is that there are none good amongbus, all... all the sons of man... everyone, falls short.





Eccl. 8:14 There is a vanity, (a strange human condition), which is done upon the earth; that there
be just men, unto whom it happeneth (by dilemma or the choice of the lesser of two evils) according to the work of the wicked;
again, there be wicked men, to whom it happeneth according to the work of the righteous: I said that this also is vanity, (no heart totally evil nor good).

[Richbee]

I agree. Jesus violated Torah.

:shocked:

No, your version of Jesus, is a good moral teacher, a Rabbi, who you think should have held the hand of the greiving man, while relatives hosted a reception for an extended family.

Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, as the Matthew text explains, had pressing priorities and plans involving ALL his disciples.

Matthew 8:28 goes on to desribe Jesus healing Two Demon-possesed Men.

I take it, your opinion, or your version (outside of the text) of Jesus performed no miracles.

Tsk, tsk.

Matthew 9, Jesus heals a Paralytic. I trust that Jesus illustrated his point well, "Let the Dead bury the Dead". Was Jesus passing judgment on this Man, and his Family?

Furthermore:

Isaiah 61:1-2 suggests that he understood himself as the one "anointed" of the Lord, that is, as Israel’s Messiah. A recently published scroll from Qumran has lent additional support to this traditional Christian belief.

According to 4Q521,

"Heaven and earth will obey his Messiah and all that is in them will not turn away from the commandments of the holy ones ... for (the Lord) will honor the pious upon the throne of the eternal Kingdom, setting prisoners free, opening the eyes of the blind, raising up those who are bowed down…. For he will heal the wounded, revive the dead, proclaim good news to the poor."

This passage, which contains allusions to Isaiah 26:19 (raising the dead), 35:5-6 (opening the eyes of the blind), and 61:1-2 (proclaiming good news to the poor), parallels Jesus’ reply to John the Baptist. Because 4Q521 implies that these wonderful things happen at the time of the Messiah, we may correctly assume that by describing his ministry in the same terms, Jesus was telling John that, yes, indeed he is the Messiah, the "one who is to come." See:

Matthew 11:4-5

"Go back and report to John what you hear and see: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor."

Jesus and Judaism - By Craig A. Evans - Click Here (www.wcg.org/lit/jesus/judaism.htm)

[kofh2u]

:shocked:

No, your version of Jesus, is a good moral teacher, a Rabbi, who you think should have held the hand of the greiving man, while relatives hosted a reception for an extended family.

Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, as the Matthew text explains, had pressing priorities and plans involving ALL his disciples.

Matthew 8:28 goes on to desribe Jesus healing Two Demon-possesed Men.

I take it, your opinion, or your version (outside of the text) of Jesus performed no miracles.

Tsk, tsk.

Matthew 9, Jesus heals a Paralytic. I trust that Jesus illustrated his point well, "Let the Dead bury the Dead". Was Jesus passing judgment on this Man, and his Family?

Furthermore:

Isaiah 61:1-2 suggests that he understood himself as the one "anointed" of the Lord, that is, as Israel’s Messiah. A recently published scroll from Qumran has lent additional support to this traditional Christian belief.

According to 4Q521,

"Heaven and earth will obey his Messiah and all that is in them will not turn away from the commandments of the holy ones ... for (the Lord) will honor the pious upon the throne of the eternal Kingdom, setting prisoners free, opening the eyes of the blind, raising up those who are bowed down…. For he will heal the wounded, revive the dead, proclaim good news to the poor."

This passage, which contains allusions to Isaiah 26:19 (raising the dead), 35:5-6 (opening the eyes of the blind), and 61:1-2 (proclaiming good news to the poor), parallels Jesus’ reply to John the Baptist. Because 4Q521 implies that these wonderful things happen at the time of the Messiah, we may correctly assume that by describing his ministry in the same terms, Jesus was telling John that, yes, indeed he is the Messiah, the "one who is to come." See:

Matthew 11:4-5

"Go back and report to John what you hear and see: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor."

Jesus and Judaism - By Craig A. Evans - Click Here (www.wcg.org/lit/jesus/judaism.htm)

Dharsi is condemning Jesus for breaking ritual codes. He points to conseling a possible new follower, another prospective member of his "organization" to "take the job" now, immediately. This requiires that this person forgo the Torah obligation to sit Shiva.

These items which the pharisees nit pick and emphasize as major evil are all ritual evensocial obligations.

Jesus answered them as they ought be answered today, for the point of the Law is to change behaviors, not between you and the ritual. The point of Torah is thinking, changing what you are doing between yourself and other people:


Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay (at the synagogue) tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted (in your nit-picking criticism) the weightier matters of the law, (matters between yourself and your fellow man) judgment, mercy, and faith: these, (the altruistic acts), ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other (ritual observances) undone.








Matt. 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: FOR THIS IS THE LAW and the prophets.

[Drashi]

He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Jesus was not a girl unless you know something I don't.

The first premise of the son of God who followed after the Transfiguration is that there are none good amongbus, all... all the sons of man... everyone, falls short.

Eccl. 8:14 There is a vanity, (a strange human condition), which is done upon the earth; that there
be just men, unto whom it happeneth (by dilemma or the choice of the lesser of two evils) according to the work of the wicked;
again, there be wicked men, to whom it happeneth according to the work of the righteous: I said that this also is vanity, (no heart totally evil nor good).
Is it just me, or does anyone else find that kofh2u posts a lot of words without ever directly answering a single question? It is as though flowery talk and unrelated prose will side-track the topic.

Is this the tactic of the scholar...to see a clear statement: "Jesus intentionally tells another to violate the Torah by not burying his father. Jesus wants to leave and this delay would be an inconvenience. He intentionally tells his student to break a specific Torah mitzvot. Did he violate the Torah and thus cannot be said to be without sin...perfect...divine?" and then simply respond with no answer at all but "yes...but no".

It is pointless to speak to the New-Age Christian theology that dynamically transforms jesus into multiple things at the same time so that he can be what is personally desirable because it is like mercury - always evasive.

[Drashi]

Well, it is obvious to me that there isn't a Christian on this board who is willing to provide a direct answer. It seems that when one is require to think, we get:

* Jesus was G-d so he could break the Torah
* Jesus was supposed to sin because he was human in order to elevate himself later, but it was a requirement so he wasn't asinner.
* Jews are nit-picky about keeping the Torah which Jesus "fulfilled".
* Jesus was really Divine and we cannot judge his actions.
* etc.

Since I cannot seem to get an honest response, I'll consider this discussion closed.

Maybe I'll come back to this forum in the future to visit after a new batch of members show up.

Sheesh!

[Menachem]

Is it just me, or does anyone else find that kofh2u posts a lot of words without ever directly answering a single question? It is as though flowery talk and unrelated prose will side-track the topic.


I find that happens all of the time

[Richbee]

Well, it is obvious to me that there isn't a Christian on this board who is willing to provide a direct answer.

I believe that you have already been exposed as quoting out of context, and positing yourself as a 20/20 hindsight legalistic pseudo-Pharisee.

God did not make Man for Torah, God divined Torah for Man.

John 19:37

"....I came into the Wolrd to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.

Case in point, let us go back to the subject of the Sabbath.

Question, why are babies circumcized on the eighth Day, even if this falls on the Sabbath?

Is this not Work?

[Goose]

Richbee:

According to the GNT, you are to observe what a Pharisee tells you to observe; as they sit in the seat of Moses.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat023.html#2

[Richbee]

Richbee:

According to the GNT, you are to observe what a Pharisee tells you to observe; as they sit in the seat of Moses.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat023.html#2

Well, it would appear that not all Pharisees were true Pharisees™!

John 8:42

Also see Matthew 23, "Seven Woes"

[kofh2u]

:shocked:

No, your version of Jesus, is a good moral teacher, a Rabbi, who you think should have held the hand of the greiving man, while relatives hosted a reception for an extended family.

Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, as the Matthew text explains, had pressing priorities and plans involving ALL his disciples.

Matthew 8:28 goes on to desribe Jesus healing Two Demon-possesed Men.

I take it, your opinion, or your version (outside of the text) of Jesus performed no miracles.

Tsk, tsk.

Matthew 9, Jesus heals a Paralytic. I trust that Jesus illustrated his point well, "Let the Dead bury the Dead". Was Jesus passing judgment on this Man, and his Family?

Furthermore:

Isaiah 61:1-2 suggests that he understood himself as the one "anointed" of the Lord, that is, as Israel’s Messiah. A recently published scroll from Qumran has lent additional support to this traditional Christian belief.

According to 4Q521,

"Heaven and earth will obey his Messiah and all that is in them will not turn away from the commandments of the holy ones ... for (the Lord) will honor the pious upon the throne of the eternal Kingdom, setting prisoners free, opening the eyes of the blind, raising up those who are bowed down…. For he will heal the wounded, revive the dead, proclaim good news to the poor."

This passage, which contains allusions to Isaiah 26:19 (raising the dead), 35:5-6 (opening the eyes of the blind), and 61:1-2 (proclaiming good news to the poor), parallels Jesus’ reply to John the Baptist. Because 4Q521 implies that these wonderful things happen at the time of the Messiah, we may correctly assume that by describing his ministry in the same terms, Jesus was telling John that, yes, indeed he is the Messiah, the "one who is to come." See:

Matthew 11:4-5

"Go back and report to John what you hear and see: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor."

Jesus and Judaism - By Craig A. Evans - Click Here (www.wcg.org/lit/jesus/judaism.htm)


Yes, you are right.

WHY would Christ EMPHASIZE the Torah and Law, which he said can only condemn?


We must remember, nevertheless, that these men are unsaved Jews, defending themselves from NT accusation that they broke Torah in their human sacrifice of Jesus.

I am a saved Jew, testifying to the blood of Christ shed by my fellows.
I am forgiven.
In every generation since the breaking of the Torah prohibition against human sacrifice, these men need to defend themselves.

I respect their right to a defense, weak as it shall turn out to be.

They ask here for direct answers as regards Jesus and violation of Torah. They claim I have been indirect.

First, I told them that their premise falls into the, "Do you STILL beat your wife" form of interrogation.

They have admitted that ALL in the OT record fell short. mDavid and Moses, themselves, directly accused of terrible sins, for instance.

Their title, Anti-Torah Jesus hardly supports their claim: that violations of the Law are Anti-Torah.

Moses certainly wasn't "anti-Torah" because he violated the Law. That's the first issue.

The second issue concerns the Jewish perspective and Christian.

From the Jewish perspective, Jesus violated the Torah.

They merely place him in the good company of Moses and David.

From the Christian perspective, Jesus set the example for future behavior.

Jesus clearly distinguished between the CONDEMNATION by the LAW and the only way to SALVATION.

All fall short of the Law. Even Dharsi acknowledged this. Jesus, h9mself, demonstrated that obsessive attention to ritual law is NOT the mewsage of Torah.

None are GOOD, only the Father, as Jesus said, himself.

The Law CONDEMNS.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is
one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.


"Born again" in a person's outlook, his predisposition, such that he has the Conscience of Jesus, is what SAVES.

The blood of Jesus illustrates that the only WAY to salvation is to love God and neighbor enough to lay down your life for their benefit.
Altruism is to replace innate Egoism.

Now, WHY would Christ EMPHASIZE the Torah and Law, which he said can only condemn?

And why not, thereby, would he demonstrate common sense in applying oneself to behaving under the Law? The Law condemns, the mental spirit of Jesus is what saves.

Christ came to make this very point.

He is/was telling the Jews:

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is
one that accuseth you, even Moses (meaning the Torah of Moses), in whom ye trust (is the very thing, thebLaw, which will condemn you, not save you).

[Goose]

Well, it would appear that not all Pharisees were true Pharisees™!

John 8:42

Also see Matthew 23, "Seven Woes"
Enlighten us and define for us what a "true Pharisee" is then.

[Richbee]

Enlighten us and define for us what a "true Pharisee" is then.

Is it better to obey Men or God?

Look what Jesus says, about listening to Pharisees:

Matthew 23:1-3

"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:

The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. BUT do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.



It should be noted that many Pharisees believed in Jesus (Nicodemus and Joseph of Aramathia, also may have been on the High Council and/or Sanhedrin or both)

The most important question here, is who is the true(TM) Jewish Messiah!

See what the great Pharisee, and teacher of the Law, Gamaliel advised: Acts 5:33-39.

Shalom! Peace to you and all your loved ones near and dear.

[Goose]

Richbee:

You have a listening comprehension problem. Again:

What is a "true Pharisee"?

[kofh2u]

Richbee:

You have a listening comprehension problem. Again:

What is a "true Pharisee"?


Hi, ... the true pharisees? I didn't know there were true and false.

But, the quote about the seat of Moses... The verses implies no particular authority assigning the role to these men. The pharisees seem to have replaced the original Aaronic priesthood of the kohanim.

Matt. 23:2 Saying, The scribes, (writers of vain discourses of academians) and the Pharisees (in the robes of tradition) sit in Moses’ seat:

I don't think Jesus believed that their self imposed positioning as the expert critics was less than arrogant presumption, because he constantly opposed them.

Matt. 23:30 And say, If we, (the orthodoxy, the pharisees, of our own generation, likened today, to include the Christian bible experts), had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the (solitary, self-proclaiming) prophets.
Matt. 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, (vain Bible lawyers), that ye are the (genetically related) children of them (who think so common to this Modern Homo sapien species) which killed the (solitary, self-proclaiming) prophets.

[heaven]

Hi, ... the true pharisees? I didn't know there were true and false.

But, the quote about the seat of Moses... The verses implies no particular authority assigning the role to these men. The pharisees seem to have replaced the original Aaronic priesthood of the kohanim.

Matt. 23:2 Saying, The scribes, (writers of vain discourses of academians) and the Pharisees (in the robes of tradition) sit in Moses’ seat:

I don't think Jesus believed that their self imposed positioning as the expert critics was less than arrogant presumption, because he constantly opposed them.

Matt. 23:30 And say, If we, (the orthodoxy, the pharisees, of our own generation, likened today, to include the Christian bible experts), had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the (solitary, self-proclaiming) prophets.
Matt. 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, (vain Bible lawyers), that ye are the (genetically related) children of them (who think so common to this Modern Homo sapien species) which killed the (solitary, self-proclaiming) prophets.

===================================================

This reply seems ill placed concerning the crucifixion. But "cursed is he who hangs on a tree" is the gyst. Jesus removed the curse of the law by
hanging on a tree. The sacrifice He suffered was a gentile sacrifice of the
Romans, effectively dying for jew and gentile alike.

[kofh2u]

===================================================

This reply seems ill placed concerning the crucifixion. But "cursed is he who hangs on a tree" is the gyst. Jesus removed the curse of the law by
hanging on a tree. The sacrifice He suffered was a gentile sacrifice of the
Romans, effectively dying for jew and gentile alike.

" The sacrifice He suffered".... ?

No.
Jesus was sacrificed by the High Priest and the Jewish leaders.

The Jews violated their Torah by "sacrificing Jesus... for fear he might precipitate a revolt, threatening Roman reprecussions:

QUOTE:
"Consider that it is expedient for us, (the Jews), that one man should BE SACRIFICED for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
Caiaphas prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation.

[Richbee]

Richbee:

You have a listening comprehension problem. Again:

What is a "true Pharisee"?

I have a question for you, what does the Torah say about false teachers, who failed to Love God, or their neighbor?

Luke 10;25-28

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ [Deut. 6:5] ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' [Lev. 19:18].

"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

[kofh2u]

A true "Pharisee?"

An orthodox super critical ultra-religious person who thinks that he doeth God service.

John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time
cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

[Richbee]

A true "Pharisee?"

An orthodox super critical ultra-religious person who thinks that he doeth God service.

John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time
cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Careful not to generalize, as Nicodemus was a Pharisee.

John 3

Jesus Teaches Nicodemus

1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him.” 3In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!”

5Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10“You are Israel's teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven–the Son of Man. 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

16“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

[kofh2u]

Careful not to generalize, as Nicodemus was a Pharisee.

John 3

Jesus Teaches Nicodemus

1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him.” 3In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!”

5Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10“You are Israel's teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven–the Son of Man. 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

16“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”


Of course you are right, certainly there must have been repentant arisees. A whole group came th John TB, didn't they?

I always wondered if Nicko understood Jesus and took up his cross, following the lord.

Do we know?

[Richbee]

Of course you are right, certainly there must have been repentant arisees. A whole group came th John TB, didn't they?

I always wondered if Nicko understood Jesus and took up his cross, following the lord.

Do we know?

Well first off, we have no extra-Bible evidence of this one Pharisee.

At the same time, this one Man seems very real, and true, and furthermore,
A Jew, a member of the Sanhedrin, and/or High Jewish council, and a very wealthy man. This is important as Jesus was no socialist, and never implied that private property ownership as an inferior idea:

Now I quote:

Nicodemus was a religious leader among the Jews in Jerusalem in the time of Jesus. He is mentioned only in the Gospel of John, where he appears three times.

In John 3, he speaks privately with Jesus.

In John 7, he is present at a meeting of Jewish leaders who are

Considering how to silence Jesus, and he says, "Does our law judge a Man without first giving him a hearing and learning what he does?"

To this, others reply, "Are you from Galilee, too?" In John 19, Nicodemus joins with Joseph of Arimathaea in giving an honorable burial to the body of Jesus. (Note: only rich men, can offer a tomb set aside for the wealthy!)

The best-known of these passages is John 3, in which Jesus tells Nicodemus: "In order for a man to see (enter) the Kingdom of God, he must be born anew (or born from above), born of water and of the Spirit." Most Christians have understood this as a reference to Holy Baptism, but others suppose the water to be amniotic fluid, and take the reference to "water and the Spirit" as contrasting natural with spiritual birth.

The dialog between Jesus and Nicodemus is given in the form of three speeches by Nicodemus and three replies by Jesus. Since ancient manuscripts have no quotation marks, it is not certain whether Jesus' third reply extends to the end of verse 21, or whether it ends earlier, perhaps as early as the end of verse 12, with the remaining verses to the end of verse 21 being a meditation by the Evangelist. Either way, these verses (including the famous John 3:16) affirm that God sent His Son into the world to bring light and salvation.

James E. Kiefer - Source - Click Here (www.justus.anglican.org/resources/bio/46.html)

[kofh2u]

Well first off, we have no extra-Bible evidence of this one Pharisee.

At the same time, this one Man seems very real, and true, and furthermore,
A Jew, a member of the Sanhedrin, and/or High Jewish council, and a very wealthy man. This is important as Jesus was no socialist, and never implied that private property ownership as an inferior idea:

Now I quote:

Nicodemus was a religious leader among the Jews in Jerusalem in the time of Jesus. He is mentioned only in the Gospel of John, where he appears three times.

In John 3, he speaks privately with Jesus.

In John 7, he is present at a meeting of Jewish leaders who are

Considering how to silence Jesus, and he says, "Does our law judge a Man without first giving him a hearing and learning what he does?"

To this, others reply, "Are you from Galilee, too?" In John 19, Nicodemus joins with Joseph of Arimathaea in giving an honorable burial to the body of Jesus. (Note: only rich men, can offer a tomb set aside for the wealthy!)

The best-known of these passages is John 3, in which Jesus tells Nicodemus: "In order for a man to see (enter) the Kingdom of God, he must be born anew (or born from above), born of water and of the Spirit." Most Christians have understood this as a reference to Holy Baptism, but others suppose the water to be amniotic fluid, and take the reference to "water and the Spirit" as contrasting natural with spiritual birth.

The dialog between Jesus and Nicodemus is given in the form of three speeches by Nicodemus and three replies by Jesus. Since ancient manuscripts have no quotation marks, it is not certain whether Jesus' third reply extends to the end of verse 21, or whether it ends earlier, perhaps as early as the end of verse 12, with the remaining verses to the end of verse 21 being a meditation by the Evangelist. Either way, these verses (including the famous John 3:16) affirm that God sent His Son into the world to bring light and salvation.

James E. Kiefer - Source - Click Here (www.justus.anglican.org/resources/bio/46.html)


Thank u, richbee for bring all this to our attention.

I always had a little respect for nick, because he was open minded enough to eat and listen to Jesus. That is all Jesus really a ked. He stands at the door, and if ...well, you know:

Rev. 4:1 After this, (having shown me the sociological development of the seven church stages), I looked, and, behold, a door (of understanding) was opened in heaven (within my mind): and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things, (various insights into) which must be hereafter, (after the formation of the seventh church, Laodicea, in the Age of Information yet to come).

[Pythagoras]

Hi,



Thank u, richbee for bring all this to our attention.

I always had a little respect for nick, because he was open minded enough to eat and listen to Jesus. That is all Jesus really a ked. He stands at the door, and if ...well, you know:

.
Good point. I think Nicodemus was impartial, non-judgmental and open-minded. A brave man for his times. Being an important religious leader of his era, had everything to loose and nothing to gain by associating with Jesus. Alas, that's why he approached jesus by night in Chapter 3.

[kofh2u]

Hi,

Good point. I think Nicodemus was impartial, non-judgmental and open-minded. A brave man for his times. Being an important religious leader of his era, had everything to loose and nothing to gain by associating with Jesus. Alas, that's why he approached jesus by night in Chapter 3.


The good point is yours.

"Being an important religious leader of his era, had everything to loose and nothing to gain by associating with Jesus."

When the master returns, how do you see this "human nature" impacting the church leadership of our day?

Who ought be the last in the church body to acknowledge the "Second Coming," yet whose will be the first opinion most will check out?

Zech. 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, (when, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the seven seals of the book of scripture [Rev 5:5]), and thy spoil (of tithes) shall be divided in the midst of thee, (O' Christendom).

[InChristAlways]

I have a question for jews. Jesus said in matt 5 that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law untill all is fulfilled. Hebrew 8/jeremiah 31 said the NC would not be like the OC.
Just for the sake of arguement, if the old "heaven and earth" passed away in the first century destruction of Jerusalem, what jots and tittles would have passed from the law, and what did God mean by "Not like the OC for the original 12 tribes of hebrew Israel, which would be botht the house of Judah/jews and house of Israel? Thanks and God bless.

matt 5:17 " Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches [them,] he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Hebrew 8:7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- 9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.

jeremi 31:31 " Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- 32 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.

Luke 21:20 " But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

[Richbee]

Alas, that's why he approached jesus by night in Chapter 3.

Yes, a very small detail, and most people miss this, and of course when Jesus is arrested by the Temple guards and Roman soldiers and brought before the High council and Sanhendrin members, Jesus asks, "Why didn't you ask me on the many occassions that I was teaching in the Temple?" (Note I paraphrase.)

Jesus was very popular with the people, and this was real problem for the Temple leaders.

John 7:

"Does our law judge a Man without first giving him a hearing and learning what he does?"

[Pythagoras]

Hi,

Yes, a very small detail, and most people miss this, and of course when Jesus is arrested by the Temple guards and Roman soldiers and brought before the High council and Sanhendrin members, Jesus asks, "Why didn't you ask me on the many occassions that I was teaching in the Temple?" (Note I paraphrase.)

Jesus was very popular with the people, and this was real problem for the Temple leaders.

John 7:

"Does our law judge a Man without first giving him a hearing and learning what he does?""He came to Jesus at night and said.."(John 3:2)


In addition to signifying fear, night suggests ignorance of the ways of God (and of salvation) on the part of Nicodemus, and by extension on the part of the whole body of the Sanhedrin. Israel's teachers were blind men leading the blind-- Jesus said, "how can one blind man lead another, will they not both fall into a ditch?" Blind, i.e. in darkness, or as Milton would have it in Paradise Lost, 'Darkness Visible.' The Sanhedrin claimed to be the leadership of the Jews but were in reality utterly useless as God's agents in this capacity.-- Jesus called them "whitewashed tombs", "hypocrites". They were so very self-assured in their superficial 'knowledge' of the laws, and could not fathom their own nakedness and wretchedness.

On this night, Jesus said to Nicodemus, "You're Israel's teacher and do not understand these things?" John 3:10) Night in this instance signifies also confusion . And just as light shines all the more brightly to pierce this darkness, so Jesus's words were a beacon on this fateful , dense night. And doubtless Nicodemus came away a transformed man after his close encounter with the Bright and Morning Star(see Rev.). "The light shines in the darkness and the darkness could not overcome it."(John 1:5) "And the Word became flesh"


It must be noted that Nicodemus was one of the 71 [hapless] priests that made up the Sanhedrin;-- composed of Sadducees and lay religious people called Pharisess(though these too were usually from well connected families, aristrocats, as Nicodemus was.) The Greeks called the Jewish Sanhedrin the Senate though it wasn’t a law making body, unlike the 100 member U.S. Senate of today for example. Two-thirds of these members were scribes, aka Lawyers. Christ reserved His severest criticism for these Scribes and Pharasees whome he called “hypocrites’ and ‘white-washed tombs’, 'brood of vipers'. They were always on the prowl to ‘catch' Jesus in his own words, but ofcourse never succeeded, and they were perennially taking advantage of the common people and vulnerable of society .Plus they were mercilessly prejudiced against the less fortunate. To compound their confusion(darkness), the Sauddees and Pharasees had some major differences in the interpretation of the Jewish laws . The Sadducces controlled the Sanhedrin and also formed it’s majority. Pandenomium reigned in the Sanhedrin, hence Nicodemus came to Jesus by night and from the dark.

"I am the light of the World", Jesus said. What a contrast.

[kofh2u]

I have a question for jews. Jesus said in matt 5 that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law untill all is fulfilled. Hebrew 8/jeremiah 31 said the NC would not be like the OC.
Just for the sake of arguement, if the old "heaven and earth" passed away in the first century destruction of Jerusalem, what jots and tittles would have passed from the law, and what did God mean by "Not like the OC for the original 12 tribes of hebrew Israel, which would be botht the house of Judah/jews and house of Israel? Thanks and God bless.

matt 5:17 " Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches [them,] he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Hebrew 8:7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- 9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.

jeremi 31:31 " Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- 32 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.

Luke 21:20 " But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

Hmmm... ever wonder about...
Isa. 60:8 Who are these (?) that fly as a cloud and as the doves to their windows?


Every religious person whose beliefs are vounded upon the Hebrew scriptures has a long list of items and verses to support their particular take on the matter of what they (scriptures) say.

Christians ought note, tho', that Jewish people discount seven times everything found in the NT.
It is like, well, the NT was written in hind sight of the OT, so care construction could "twist", in their mind, anything to be found in their OT.

Jews also have been attacked with interpretations of there own OT, now, for 2000 years. They wrote rbuttals in their Talmut quite a few centuries after Chrust in order to keep their collective and next generation's responses consistent.

So, I suggest that old arguments using the OT will fail to enloghten those to whom a Christian might speak, as surely as will NT references.

Nevertheless, the Jews salvation, especially as the Nation of Israel, seems confirmed in both Books.

The big question for Jews is whether the prophecies will be fulfilled, are in fact fulfilled with or without Christian assistance. If there had been not Christ, then the western world would still be ex-Romans whose pagan religion might long ago eliminated them, but never aid them.

So, if the Holy Spirit is, as Christians believe, in the circumcised heart of the Christian membership, and if acts like the present American support for Israel,...
... the war against an anti-semitic Arab world,...
... and a world-wide campaign against what was once only an Israeli terror problem...
... then let Christ have the Power, the Glory, the Riches, the Honor,... because his Christian soldiers have the Strength, theKnowledge, to bring His Blessing upon the Jew with the Wisdom he spoke of to the prophet Isaiah:

Isa. 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud (from the Americas), and as the doves (of peace) to their (cathedral) windows?

Isa. 60:9 Surely the isles (of the New World) shall wait for me, and
the ships of Tarshish first (from Western Europe), to bring thy sons (of Abraham) from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD, (Christ) thy God, (the Word of scripture), and to the Holy One of Israel, (Jesus), because he hath glorified thee (in Christianity).

Isa. 60:10 And the sons of strangers (from the Americas) shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister peace unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee (in Holocaust), but in my favour (restoring my chosen to Israel) have I had mercy on thee.

Isa. 60:11 Therefore thy gates, (O'Promised Land), shall be open
continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring
(as tourists) unto thee the forces of the (rich Christian) Gentiles, and
that their kings may be brought (supporting your sovereignty).

Isa. 60:12 For the nation and (religious) kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

[InChristAlways]

Jews also have been attacked with interpretations of there own OT, now, for 2000 years. They wrote rbuttals in their Talmut quite a few centuries after Chrust in order to keep their collective and next generation's responses consistent.

So, I suggest that old arguments using the OT will fail to enloghten those to whom a Christian might speak, as surely as will NT references.

Nevertheless, the Jews salvation, especially as the Nation of Israel, seems confirmed in both Books.


Hi. They can use all the different translation and Talmud interpretations in the world, but the OT shows the messiah will come, then destruction would come upon the rulers/priests of the house of Judah/Levi/Jerusalem.
They want to put as many prophecies on the destruction of Jerusalem during the time of Babylon, but that won't work. And they fail to distinguish between the house of Judah(jews) and house of Israel,(I doubt if all of Israel can be the house of Judah!!!) another big mistake. The only reason they are called "jews" today is because they practice Talmudic judaism and more churches are beginning to understand they are not the "jews" of the OT or NT(unless they are of a "remnant" that came out of Jerusalem in the first century destruction by God using the roman army)
But I believe the Holy Spirit will open more of their eyes, as they mostly look at the Torah and not the prophets, because if they did, they would see their temple was destroyed by God just as Jesus and the prophets prophecied.

Isaiah 28:14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, Who rule this people who [are] in Jerusalem, 15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves." 16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily. 17 Also I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the plummet; The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters will overflow the hiding place. 18 Your covenant with death will be annulled, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it.

zech 4: 6 So he answered and said to me: "This the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' Says the LORD of hosts. [i]7 'Who [are] you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel [you shall become] a plain! And he shall bring forth the capstone With shouts of "Grace, grace to it!" ' "


Jeremiah 17:1 "The sin of Judah written with a pen of iron; With the point of a diamond [it is] engraved On the tablet of their heart, And on the horns of your altars, [i]2 While their children remember Their altars and their wooden images By the green trees on the high hills. 3 O My mountain in the field, I will give as plunder your wealth, all your treasures, [And] your high places of sin within all your borders. 4 And you, even yourself, Shall let go of your heritage which I gave you; And I will cause you to serve your enemies In the land which you do not know; For you have kindled a fire in My anger [which] shall burn forever."

[kofh2u]

InChristAlways:

Hi.

...the OT shows the messiah will come, then
destruction would come upon the rulers/priests of the house of Judah/Levi/Jerusalem.

KOFHY:
(DIASPORA)

InChristAlways:
...they fail to distinguish between the house of Judah(jews) and house of Israel,

KOFHY:
(SEE EZEKIEL 28, ... the ten lost tribes...)

InChristAlways:
(I doubt if all of Israel can be the house of Judah!!!)

KOFHY:
(JUAH IS THE ISRAEL OF TODAY)

Zech. 2:12 And the LORD, (YHVH), shall inherit Judah his portion, (the State of Israel), in the holy land, and (Judah) shall choose Jerusalem again.

InChristAlways:
another big mistake. The only reason they are called "jews" today is because they practice Talmudic judaism and more churches are beginning to understand they are not the "jews" of the OT or NT(unless they are of a "remnant"...

KOFHY:
[i]9 Unless the LORD of hosts Had left to us a very small remnant, We WOULD HAVE BECOME like Sodom, We WOULD HAVE BEEN made like Gomorrah.[b]

InChristAlways:
...that came out of Jerusalem in the first century destruction by God using the roman army)

KOFHY:
Not that remnant...

Zech. 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land (of your Holocaust) of the north, (Western Europe), saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as (if you were) the four winds (Rev 7;1) of the heaven, saith the LORD.

Zech. 2:7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of
Babylon, (Western Europe).

InChristAlways:
... they would see their temple was destroyed by God just as Jesus and the prophets prophecied.

KOFHY:
True.
Ezek. 28:23 For I will send into her (this House of Judah) pestilence, and blood into her streets; and the wounded shall be judged in the midst of her by the sword upon her on every side; and they shall know (in the captivity of Babylon) that I am the LORD.

[Krusader]

Since Christianity's claims derive ultimately entirely from TN"K(Tanach - what Christians call the Hebrew Old Testament), Deuteronomy 13:1-5 explicitly precludes an anti-Torah Jesus as being the Messiah.

"If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee." -
Deu 13:1-5
Jesus was as about anti-Torah as the chief rabbi of Jerusalem. Come on, Jesus said that not a jot or tittle would pass from the law until all was fulfilled - now, go back to your Old Testament and see what has to be fulfilled.

[InChristAlways]

Jesus was as about anti-Torah as the chief rabbi of Jerusalem. Come on, Jesus said that not a jot or tittle would pass from the law until all was fulfilled - now, go back to your Old Testament and see what has to be fulfilled.Hi Crusader. Well, I don't believe Jesus was as anti-torah as the religious rulers he chastized.
I know one prophecy that was fulfilled right here, as this prophecy was made BEFORE the 2nd temple was destroyed by God using the roman army in the first century:

Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming," Says the LORD of hosts.

This appears to be a prophecy still in effect now and unless the Lord came to His temple as in Malachi 3, then the jews are still under this curse , as the temple was still standing when this was made. Evidently the Priests weren't keeping the Torah very well either.

Malachi 2:1 "And now, O priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If you will not hear, And if you will not take to heart, To give glory to My name," Says the LORD of hosts, "I will send a curse upon you, And I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have cursed them already, Because you do not take [it] to heart. [i]3 "Behold, I will rebuke your descendants And spread refuse on your faces, The refuse of your solemn feasts; And [one] will take you away with it.

jeremiah 50:6 " My people have been lost sheep. Their shepherds have led them astray; They have turned them away [on] the mountains. They have gone from mountain to hill; They have forgotten their resting place.

[Krusader]

Hi Crusader. Well, I don't believe Jesus was as anti-torah as the religious rulers he chastized.
I know one prophecy that was fulfilled right here, as this prophecy was made BEFORE the 2nd temple was destroyed by God using the roman army in the first century:

Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming," Says the LORD of hosts.

This appears to be a prophecy still in effect now and unless the Lord came to His temple as in Malachi 3, then the jews are still under this curse , as the temple was still standing when this was made. Evidently the Priests weren't keeping the Torah very well either.

Malachi 2:1 "And now, O priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If you will not hear, And if you will not take to heart, To give glory to My name," Says the LORD of hosts, "I will send a curse upon you, And I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have cursed them already, Because you do not take [it] to heart. [i]3 "Behold, I will rebuke your descendants And spread refuse on your faces, The refuse of your solemn feasts; And [one] will take you away with it.

jeremiah 50:6 " My people have been lost sheep. Their shepherds have led them astray; They have turned them away [on] the mountains. They have gone from mountain to hill; They have forgotten their resting place.
Jesus, the Second Person of the Trinity, came to fulfill the law as you know. For Christians, this means that we are no longer under the law but under grace. The law, remains, however as the standard by which all those not under grace will be judged. Would you agree?

[Snarf]

Jesus was as about anti-Torah as the chief rabbi of Jerusalem. Come on, Jesus said that not a jot or tittle would pass from the law until all was fulfilled - now, go back to your Old Testament and see what has to be fulfilled.

Jesus said "until heaven and earth pass away." Since earth is still around then the laws are still in effect. So why aren't you following the laws of Leviticus?

[Snarf]

Jesus, the Second Person of the Trinity, came to fulfill the law as you know. For Christians, this means that we are no longer under the law but under grace. The law, remains, however as the standard by which all those not under grace will be judged. Would you agree?

But this is inconsistent with what you say on the Islam thread. You apparantly believe that Jews will go to heaven, just because they are Jews. Going by your belief, Jews can go to heaven without having to believe in Jesus (thus contradicting evangelical theology that only believers in Jesus are saved), and since they are not perfect, they don't even have to have obeyed their laws perfectly!

[kofh2u]

Jesus said "until heaven and earth pass away." Since earth is still around then the laws are still in effect. So why aren't you following the laws of Leviticus?


Absolutely right.

The gentile conversion offered the dispensation of a Grace Period, wherein Christians were not asked to go the whole nine years. Savrd by grace alone, the gentiles have been long "temporiarly excused" from the orthodoxy required of Hebrew Christians.

The Hebrew Christian in that day, and those who are with us today, in Hebrew-Christian Congregations, like those in Philadelphia, Pa., are actually observing Torah. Christ has supercededand superimposed upon the previous ritual observances in this Christian denomination.

But, the time has come, and is here now, when Christians will advance to the next level of faithful ritual behaviors:

Zech. 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of
all the nations (and denominations of Christian religion) which came against (this New) Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, (the Lion of Judah, root of David), the LORD of hosts, (the host of unceasing tourism), and to keep the feast of tabernacles, (and build cube shaped geometries as if Sukkoths).

[heaven]

Absolutely right.

The gentile conversion offered the dispensation of a Grace Period, wherein Christians were not asked to go the whole nine years. Savrd by grace alone, the gentiles have been long "temporiarly excused" from the orthodoxy required of Hebrew Christians.

The Hebrew Christian in that day, and those who are with us today, in Hebrew-Christian Congregations, like those in Philadelphia, Pa., are actually observing Torah. Christ has supercededand superimposed upon the previous ritual observances in this Christian denomination.

But, the time has come, and is here now, when Christians will advance to the next level of faithful ritual behaviors:

Zech. 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of
all the nations (and denominations of Christian religion) which came against (this New) Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, (the Lion of Judah, root of David), the LORD of hosts, (the host of unceasing tourism), and to keep the feast of tabernacles, (and build cube shaped geometries as if Sukkoths).


To know Jeshua is to know the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The

jews for the most part know their God.

However, the jews are missing out .

[kofh2u]

To know Jeshua is to know the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The

jews for the most part know their God.

However, the jews are missing out .


Absolutely right, and they will come to understand why:

Zech. 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the (triangular landscape of the) valley of Megiddon, (because of the armageddon of the coming scriptural understandings).

Zech. 12:12 And the land (of Israel) shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David, (the Hebrew-Christian community), apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan, (those who handed Jesus up), apart, and their wives apart;

Zech. 12:13 The family of the house of Levi, (the Cohanim), apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei, (the Rabbi of today), apart, and their wives apart;

Zech. 12:14 All the families (of the twelve tribes of Israel) that
remain (scattered throughout the world), every family apart, and their wives apart.

[heaven]

Absolutely right, and they will come to understand why:

Zech. 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the (triangular landscape of the) valley of Megiddon, (because of the armageddon of the coming scriptural understandings).

Zech. 12:12 And the land (of Israel) shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David, (the Hebrew-Christian community), apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan, (those who handed Jesus up), apart, and their wives apart;

Zech. 12:13 The family of the house of Levi, (the Cohanim), apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei, (the Rabbi of today), apart, and their wives apart;



Zech. 12:14 All the families (of the twelve tribes of Israel) that
remain (scattered throughout the world), every family apart, and their wives apart.
======================================================

Dear Koph2u,

Please expound on the mourning quotes.

I have heard a Hebrew christian speak exactly as Paul, same sentiments,

in that the jews are missing out on such blessings in knowing the Messiah.

[Krusader]

But this is inconsistent with what you say on the Islam thread. You apparantly believe that Jews will go to heaven, just because they are Jews. Going by your belief, Jews can go to heaven without having to believe in Jesus (thus contradicting evangelical theology that only believers in Jesus are saved), and since they are not perfect, they don't even have to have obeyed their laws perfectly!
Snarf, no Jew will go to heaven apart from faith in Christ. Is that clear enough?

[InChristAlways]

Snarf, no Jew will go to heaven apart from faith in Christ. Is that clear enough?Yep. The jews are in the same boat as everyone that doesn't believe unto Jesus' Name. Israel must read prophecy differently than I do as God destroyed their temple and city shortly after the "Cornerstone" was crucified by the house of Judah.God bless.

acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 "If we this day are judged for a good deed [done] to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 "let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 "This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' 12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Isaiah 28:14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, Who rule this people who [are] in Jerusalem, 15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves." 16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily. 17 Also I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the plummet; The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters will overflow the hiding place.

As far as Jesus being anti-torah, I would hate to be in the jews shoes when this happens, as they are cursed already, and this would also be the curses of Deuteronomy 28 coming on them!!!

Malachi 2:1 "And now, O priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If you will not hear, And if you will not take to heart, To give glory to My name(Jesus Christ)," Says the LORD of hosts, "I will send a curse upon you, And I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have cursed them already, Because you do not take [it] to heart. [i]3 "Behold, I will rebuke your descendants And spread DUNG on your faces, The DUNG of your solemn feasts; And [one] will take you away with it.