Mystery of Sin

[7thangel]

Lots of Christians, despite feeling secure of their salvation, and having confidence of God’s faithfulness to fulfill and efficaciously work His promise, are baffled by the mystery of the nature of sin. For one thing, how can we be indeed “secure” of our salvation when sin, which is the very reason of our damnation, is still present and working in us? It is even a fact that we abhor a Christian who would declare that he does not sin!
The Bible, on the other hand, declares that anyone who is in Christ does not sin. John wrote, “And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known him.” So, the goal of every Christian is to completely get rid of sinning. Not surprisingly, Christ Himself commanded a woman, “Go, and sin no more.”

So we are left in that if we say that we still sin we put ourselves in a ridiculous position of being against of what we profess as believers of God; for if we believe we know God then we should no more sin. The Bible clearly say that a person who sin is ignorant of who God really is; it will turn out that as we confess that we cannot get away sinning the Bible convicts us as actually ignorant of Him.

But then, if we say we do not sin we make ourselves liars and a laughing stock of our fellowmen. Also, to say that we do not sin is tantamount to saying that we are not humans!

But there is no dilemma about the subject of sin if we really know what sin really is. Our immediate thought of the nature of sin is our common knowledge of what is wrong, or of what is bad. Most, if not all, presume that simply erring meant sinning against God. That is not quite exactly right. Well, the Bible speaks of two categories of sins. John wrote, “If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.”

Now listen carefully what John said in his epistle. There is a sin that we can pray for and ask God for forgiveness: that is a “sin not unto death.” But a “sin unto death” is something we cannot pray, or ask, for forgiveness from God. Note that what Paul refers to in his epistle, in Romans 6:23, of sin that has death as wage are types of sins unto death.

In broad sense, a “sin not unto death” is sin that in a certain degree we have the ability to change, thus, we ask for forgiveness and pray for it because we have the ability to somehow get it right. On the other hand, a “sin unto death” is a sin that is beyond our power to change, thus it is not something we can right. Presumably, sins that are unto death are usually sins that we cannot recognize as sins, or sins that are beyond our control.

We have the inherent nature of sinning sins unto death, thus we are naturally enemies of God, unworthy of His attention. We are by nature depraved and ignorant of God’s will, and of His unrighteousness. As Paul said, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”

Now note that as John said that we ought NOT to pray for these sins unto death; for when God saved us from this kind of sins, He saved us out of His “grace.” When God saved us by washing our sins by the blood of Christ, God did it on His own purpose and will according to His graciousness. Thus our salvation is not influenced by humans but of God’s sole decision alone. God is not indebted at all to forgive us all and change us into His image; else grace will be no more grace but an obligation.



References: 1John 3:5-6, John 8:10-11, 1John 5:16-17, Romans 6:23, Romans 3:11-19, 23, Ephesians 1:4-5.


Any comments?

[seer]

God is not indebted at all to forgive us all and change us into His image; else grace will be no more grace but an obligation.

That is silly. It is not that God is obligated to save all men, it's that God desires to save all men:

1 Tim.2:

3: This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4: who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5: For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6: who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time.

BTW Angel - when a believer sins is he resisting God's will or doing God's will?

[smaller]

Greetings 7th A

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,

Why did death only reign from Adam to Moses?

1 Corinthians 15:21
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

ALLLL "christians" are quick, very quick, to allot sin to all men, but all men are VERY very slow to allot LIFE to all men. Men prefer to LIMIT GOD. It does not matter.

Death of the physical body is because of the presence of sin within it. That is how men receive the "wages" of sin that are due "to sin." It is not an "eternal price" paid, but a transition price that is paid by mankind.

We will ALL get a "new body" that is not "subject to" sin (them.) When anyone dies they are "released from sin." Romans 6:7

When a person dies, there is a "sin" of "death" that "causes" or forces them out of their body. A "sin of death." Death is the name of "that sin."

Sin "drives" them out of their "land." There are NONE that are exempt from this eventual force out.


God is not indebted at all to forgive us all and change us into His image; else grace will be no more grace but an obligation.

Grace is a promise for and to "the body" is a promise and IS an "obligation."

God's promise for the "earth."

"But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD."

[7thangel]

God is not indebted at all to forgive us all and change us into His image; else grace will be no more grace but an obligation.

That is silly. It is not that God is obligated to save all men, it's that God desires to save all men:

1 Tim.2:

3: This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4: who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5: For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6: who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. It is not at all silly, brother seer.

Note also that Paul wrote to Timothy saying, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." What Paul implies is that not all that we can interpret on the word of God can rightly be the truth. In fact, if we interpret literally all that is written in the Scriptures we will surely not gain salvation. As Paul said: the letter killeth... And the most common error of Christians is that they take a verse/s then presume to reflect the perfect will and nature of God. That of course is not true. Let me give an simple example of this: When Christ said forgive your brethren seventy times, is it really Christ's will that we count and forgive our brethren seventy times? Let me guess...probably you would answer: "always" forgive a brother. Of course, that is what is implied in that verses regarding forgiving our brother of their sins, and I would certainly agree. But if I ask you again, "If a brother sin a sin that is a sin unto death will you forgive him?" Not only that you should not forgive him, John also said not to pray about it. So, whatever was Christ saying in those verses regarding to "always" forgive does not perfectly reflect the will/nature of God, so does of some other instances in the Bible does not perfectly reflect the perfect nature and will of God. Why do this case of presenting perfect and imperfect will/nature of God exists in the Bible?

Generally, the answer can be well understood by knowing that the Bible is for two different kinds of people: those under the law and those under faith. Basically, a person under the law is ignorant of the Godhead, thus they are in the process of being under the tutorial of the law. Now, everyone passes the stage of being under the law and thus God subjects us under the law first. But it does not mean that we should be under the law forever. Yet there are some parts of the Bible in which God is dealing with people who are under the law, and in those messages we ought not to think that such messages is the perfect will of God. Now, the main characteristics of the messages dealing with those under the law is of the nature of commanding us to "work" for our salvation; and in those instances, that is not the perfect will of God.

Let me give you two messages to discern what I am talking about messages for those under the law, and messages for those already under faith. See Romans 10:9-10 and Ephesians 1:4-5, 11. These two messages speaks of two different dates of our salvation, and different ways of salvation. With respect to dates, one speak of the date we accept Christ in our hearts, the other speaks of the date before the foundation of the world. Of the ways of salvation, one speaks of the necessity of our will, as in we need to work out our salvation. While the other speaks of God doing all the salvation. The message in Romans is for those under the law, and the message in Ephesians are for those full of faith.

The verses you quoted is basically for those under the law. Though it was written for Timothy the message was actually intended for the whole church. And the part you quoted is directed unto those member of the church that are still under the law and are in the process to be gifted of faith.

Let me stop on explaining because it is futile to explain if you yourself cannot discern these things, and have no ability to rightly divide the word of God. You would really think I am silly without you having no discernment of those things I speak of. Rather, let me ask you if you understand what I was saying above. Do you understand them and agree of them?

BTW Angel - when a believer sins is he resisting God's will or doing God's will?My immediated thought was that I could resist God's will -- of course, that was when I was ignorant of the nature of the Godhead and my very own nature.

Sometime ago, I came to understand that I have no will, at all, to do God's will, yeah I am so depraved!!! In fact, sometime ago I just realized that I was totally ignorant of the will of God. But God had changed me and put in my will His will, and showed to me His knowledge and understanding. God gave me understanding that in my own I could never ever make myself a good vessel. I wish I could make you understand my depravity that nothing, I mean nothing at all, of myself, can even please or obliged God to save me from such state.

Right now, I am seeking for the guy who created me so depraved, and ignorant of the will of God. Do you know Him? and do you think it is His will that he created me the way I was?

[7thangel]

Greetings 7th A
Thanks for responding, brother smaller.

I propose that you read my response unto brother seer before responding unto this. I do not think that you rightly understood the messages you have quoted from the Bible. So please respond to my following comments.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Is it really "just" that all humanity be condemned because of another man's sin? The Bible also says:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Exekiel 18:20.

What is the impact of Exekiel 18:20 to your understanding of Romans 5:12? Are the two verses compatible?

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,

Why did death only reign from Adam to Moses?

1 Corinthians 15:21
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
You are greatly misunderstanding Romans 5:14. Paul is not saying, whatsoever, that death "only" reigned from Adam to Moses. Let us look at the whole verse:

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

In verse 12, Paul made a conclusion that "all" have sinned. But in verse 13 he said, "but sin is not imputed when there is no law." Now, since the law came at the time of Moses, does it mean that the people from Adam to Moses did not sin, and therefore did not suffer the wages of sin which is death, because they do not have the law? But, though the law only came at the time of Moses, Paul said, "Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses." How was that possible? Paul said in Romans 2:14-15, "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" Therefore, all men from Adam to Moses, who are gentiles by nature because of not having the law, are in fact, naturally doing the law and therefore have the law.

ALLLL "christians" are quick, very quick, to allot sin to all men, but all men are VERY very slow to allot LIFE to all men. Men prefer to LIMIT GOD. It does not matter.

Death of the physical body is because of the presence of sin within it. That is how men receive the "wages" of sin that are due "to sin." It is not an "eternal price" paid, but a transition price that is paid by mankind.

We will ALL get a "new body" that is not "subject to" sin (them.) When anyone dies they are "released from sin." Romans 6:7

When a person dies, there is a "sin" of "death" that "causes" or forces them out of their body. A "sin of death." Death is the name of "that sin."

Sin "drives" them out of their "land." There are NONE that are exempt from this eventual force out.
I cannot fully follow what you are saying above. From what I understand of what you are saying it is so stranged to the true meaning and nature of SIN.

Grace is a promise for and to "the body" is a promise and IS an "obligation."

God's promise for the "earth."

"But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD."
A promise is indeed and obligation to keep. But I am not speaking of God's promise, but of God's grace. Sure, God made a promise of giving grace only to His chosen. My issue is on the reason why God did not promise grace to all men, and my answer is that it is because God is not obliged to give grace unto all men. Somehow, I was relating it to our sins that are unto death, by which it is only through the act of God's grace can we be forgiven. Evidently, God had chosen few to forgive us of these sins unto death. And if forgiveness of sins is only given through grace, we cannot, in any case, demand it from God.

God Bless,
7thangel

[smaller]

Thanks for responding, brother smaller.

I propose that you read my response unto brother seer before responding unto this. I do not think that you rightly understood the messages you have quoted from the Bible. So please respond to my following comments.

Read it. Will leave it to seer, except that to say the inescapable conclusions that Paul made about "the law" is that Paul established it, upheld it, said it was good if used properly, and served it. In the light of such statements, we are fools to neglect The Law in all it's multifacted aspects.

Is it really "just" that all humanity be condemned because of another man's sin? The Bible also says:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Exekiel 18:20.

Everyone dies in the "flesh." When anyone dies they are "released from" sin. (Romans 6:7)

What is the impact of Exekiel 18:20 to your understanding of Romans 5:12? Are the two verses compatible?

In the light of Romans 11:32, it all makes "perfect" sense.

You are greatly misunderstanding Romans 5:14. Paul is not saying, whatsoever, that death "only" reigned from Adam to Moses. Let us look at the whole verse:

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

In verse 12, Paul made a conclusion that "all" have sinned. But in verse 13 he said, "but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

By The Law sin is revealed. Without the law sin is still in all, but not revealed (imputed.)

Now, since the law came at the time of Moses, does it mean that the people from Adam to Moses did not sin, and therefore did not suffer the wages of sin which is death, because they do not have the law? But, though the law only came at the time of Moses, Paul said, "Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses." How was that possible?

Sin reigned because The Law did not shed it's LIGHT upon SIN to reveal it. Paul said "by the law is the knowledge of sin" and "I had not known sin, but by the law."

Sin is "aroused" and "empowered" and "revealed" by The Law of God.

Paul said in Romans 2:14-15, "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" Therefore, all men from Adam to Moses, who are gentiles by nature because of not having the law, are in fact, naturally doing the law and therefore have the law.

Same principle applies.

I cannot fully follow what you are saying above. From what I understand of what you are saying it is so stranged to the true meaning and nature of SIN.

There is a "sin of death." Sin "causes" death and there is also a "sin of death."

A promise is indeed and obligation to keep. But I am not speaking of God's promise, but of God's grace. Sure, God made a promise of giving grace only to His chosen.

Oh? How many scriptures do you want that show "grace" to be a much broader application than you have measured here?

My issue is on the reason why God did not promise grace to all men, and my answer is that it is because God is not obliged to give grace unto all men.

Well, why don't you tell me which of these you don't agree with?


“that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.” (1 John 4:14)

Jesus is “the Christ, the Savior of the world.” (John 4:42)

"this is good and acceptable in the sight of our God our saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” (1 Tim. 2:3-6, KJV)

Jesus “is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” (1 John 2:2)

Jesus “did not come to judge the world but to save the world.” (John 12:47)

“Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.” (Heb. 2:9)

“love never fails.” (1 Cor. 13:8)

"love keeps no record of wrongs" (1 Cor. 13:5)

“with God nothing is impossible.” (Luke 1:37)

“this is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.” (1 Tim. 4:9-11)

“that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (Phil. 2:10:11)

“God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things on earth or in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation.” (Col. 1:19, 21, 22)

“the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:21)

“good tidings of great joy will be to all people.” (Luke 2:10)

Jesus “heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.” (Heb. 1:2)

“as God gave Jesus authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as God gave Him.” (John 17:2)

the Father “has given all things into Jesus’ hands.” (John 13:3)

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (John 6:39)

Jesus “was the true light which gives light to every man who come into the world.” (John 1:9)

“just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.” (Rom. 5:18)

Jesus is “able even to subdue all things to Himself.” (Phil. 3:21)

Jesus came “that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.” (Eph. 1:10, 11)

“the Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)

“God was Christ reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: be reconciled to God.” (2 Cor. 5:19, 20)

“all the nations shall be blessed.” (Gal 3:8)

“the Bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives Life to the world.” (John 6:33)

“Love your enemies, bless those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.” (Matt. 5:44, 45)

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (drag in the Greek) all mankind unto Myself.”

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (John 6:34)

“creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope, because creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” (Rom. 8:20, 21)

“the Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hands.” (John 3:35)

“since by man came death, by man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all died, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” (1 Cor. 15:22)

"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:" (Romans 3:22)

Jesus “is the image of the invisible God, the first born over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.” (Co. 1:15, 16)

“all shall know the Lord, from the least of them to the greatest of them.” (Heb. 8:11)

“the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.” (Titus 2:11)

"And all flesh shall see the salvation of God." (Luke 3:6)


“do not repay evil for evil.” (Rom. 12:17)

“if anyone’s work which he has built endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved yet so as through fire.” (1 Cor. 3:14, 15)

“of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen” (Rom. 11:36)

“all Israel will be saved.” (even enemies of The Gospel) (Rom. 11:26)

“Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.” (2 Cor. 5:14)

“the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Cor. 11:3)

"all nations shall come and worship You, for your judgments have been made manifested.” (Rev. 15:4)

“when God’s judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.” (Isaiah 26:9)

"Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son-" (John 5:22)

“mercy shall triumph over judgment.” (James 2:13)

“where sin abounded, grace abounded much more.” (Rom. 5:20)

“every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever.” (Rev. 5:13)

“you would not have condemned the guiltless.” (Matt. 12:7)

“God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the gentiles, which is Christ in you the hope of glory. Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.” (Col. 1: 27, 28)

“all nations whom God has made will come and worship before Him” (Psalm 86:9)

God’s “mercy endures forever.” (1 Chron. 16:34)

God’s Spirit “will be poured out on all flesh.” (Joel 2:28)

“Come, and let us return to the Lord, for He has torn, but He will heal us. He has stricken, but He will bind us. After 2 days, He will revive us. On the third day He will raise us up that we may live in His sight.” (Hosea 6:1, 2)

“the Lord had made bare His Holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.” (Isaiah 52:10)

“the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.” (Isaiah 40:5)

God will “open His hand and satisfy the desire of every living thing.” (Psalm 145:16)

God is “gracious in all His works.” (Psalm 145:17)

“the earth is the Lord’s and all its fullness, the world and those who dwell therein.” (Psalm 24:1)

“all the kings of the earth shall praise you, O Lord, when they hear the words of your mouth.” (Psalm 138:4)

God “reveals Himself by those who did not ask for Him: He was found by those who did not seek Him.” (Isaiah 65:1)

“the Lord is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and great in mercy. The Lord is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works. All your works shall praise you, O Lord.” (Psalm 145:8-10)

“all the ends of the world shall remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall worship before You. All those who go down to the dust (death) shall bow before You.” (Psalm 22:27, 29)

“O You Who hear prayer, to you all flesh will come. Iniquities prevail against me; as for our transgressions, you will provide atonement for them.” (Psalm 65:2-4)

“through the greatness of your power your enemies shall submit themselves to you. All the earth shall worship You and sing praises to you.” (Psalm 66:3, 4)

“through the Lord’s mercies we are not consumed, because His compassions fail not. They are new every morning. Great is your faithfulness.” (Lam. 3:21-24)

“the Lord will not cast off forever. Though He causes grief, yet He will show compassion according to the multitude of His mercies.” (Lam. 3:31, 32)

“there is no God besides Me, a just God and Savior; There is none besides Me. Look to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath. He shall say, surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, and all shall be ashamed who are incensed against Him. In the Lord all the descendants of Israel shall be justified and shall glory.” (Isaiah 45:21-25)

“in this mountain the Lord of Hosts will make for all people a feast of choice pieces, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of well-refined wines on the lees. And he shall destroy on this mountain the surface of the covering cast over all nations. He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord will wipe away tears from all faces.” (Isaiah 25:6-8)

“all the nations of the earth shall be blessed.” (Gen. 18:18)

“all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” (Gen. 12:3, 28:14)

“it shall come to pass the saying that is written: ‘death is swallowed up in victory. Oh, Death, where is your sting Oh, Hell (Hades) where is your victory.’ The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us victory though our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Cor. 15:54-58)

IS THIS ENOUGH???


Somehow, I was relating it to our sins that are unto death, by which it is only through the act of God's grace can we be forgiven. Evidently, God had chosen few to forgive us of these sins unto death. And if forgiveness of sins is only given through grace, we cannot, in any case, demand it from God.

Some people, perhaps like you, will admit that the "gift" of God is eternal life, but that He has hidden it so well that nearly none can find or open that gift.

I say one would have to be blind to miss it, and we know who the "cause" of blindness is eh?

enjoy!

smaller

[seer]

Hey Eel, here is a thread you might want to jump in on - right up your ally:

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37790

[smaller]

You do an interesting job working that "middle ground" yourself j.

[seer]

You do an interesting job working that "middle ground" yourself j.

The fact is, I do not believe that there is a lot of clear ground on these issues.

[7thangel]

Read it. Will leave it to seer, except that to say the inescapable conclusions that Paul made about "the law" is that Paul established it, upheld it, said it was good if used properly, and served it. In the light of such statements, we are fools to neglect The Law in all it's multifacted aspects.



I am very much in doubt you understand the mystery of the law at all. If you can understand the mystery of sin then you can understand the mystery of the law.



Everyone dies in the "flesh." When anyone dies they are "released from" sin. (Romans 6:7)



It is true that a dead person do not sin; and that seem what you understood from the verse because of your Universalist leaning, I presume.



But Paul is not literally speaking of death on the physical term, but death on the spiritual term. In fact, Paul said to the Romans, note that they were still living, " Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin..." Right now I am dead in the flesh, and like Paul, I confess that "For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."



In the light of Romans 11:32, it all makes "perfect" sense.



First, I am not denying that all have sinned, OK? What I am against is as if, by quoting Romans 5:14, you believed that all have sinned because we bore the sin of other person, or should we say you believed of the Original Sin. I quoted Exekiel 18:20 that deny the concept of Original Sin. I would rather say though that your "interpretation" of Romans 5:14 is incompatible to Ezekiel 18:20.



Now, if you believed all have sinned because we bore somebody's sin, then it is your "interpretation" of Romans 5:14 is that which does not make sense. Consequentially, your understading of Romans 11:32 does not also make sense. But, of course, there is a right interpretation of those verses that indeed make sense.



Going back to my first response unto you. The reason I want you to read my response unto brother seer is, basically, for you to take note about conflicting messages in the Bible, and also of the danger of being literally discerned. Evidently, you fall to those errings, and without even fully understanding your interpretations you claimed to be making sense.



By The Law sin is revealed. Without the law sin is still in all, but not revealed (imputed.)



Do you see the underlined above? Wrong understanding.



Sin reigned because The Law did not shed it's LIGHT upon SIN to reveal it. Paul said "by the law is the knowledge of sin" and "I had not known sin, but by the law."



Sin is "aroused" and "empowered" and "revealed" by The Law of God.



I am explaining what Paul is really saying and you are plainly showing your ignorance. Don't you know that Paul is talking specifically of the Law of Moses that is why he speaks of death reigning from Adam to Moses? Didn't you noticed the significance why Paul mentioned "from Adam to Moses?



There are two laws of God. One given unto Moses, and the other is that which is written in the saint's hearts and minds of the saints. With all those ways you explain and coupled by you mentioning "The Law of God" I discerned that you are actually ignorant of what Paul is talking about.



Same principle applies.



The reason Paul did not expound more about death reigning from Adam to Moses is because he mentioned already the explanation in that epistle. That meant Paul speaks of that principle in Romans 2:14-15.



There is a "sin of death." Sin "causes" death and there is also a "sin of death."



Read again the OP, just in case you are missing something.



Oh? How many scriptures do you want that show "grace" to be a much broader application than you have measured here?



Don't understimate me. See below.





Well, why don't you tell me which of these you don't agree with?





“that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.” (1 John 4:14)



Jesus is “the Christ, the Savior of the world.” (John 4:42)



"this is good and acceptable in the sight of our God our saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” (1 Tim. 2:3-6, KJV)



Jesus “is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” (1 John 2:2)



Jesus “did not come to judge the world but to save the world.” (John 12:47)



“Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.” (Heb. 2:9)



“love never fails.” (1 Cor. 13:8)



"love keeps no record of wrongs" (1 Cor. 13:5)



“with God nothing is impossible.” (Luke 1:37)



“this is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.” (1 Tim. 4:9-11)



“that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (Phil. 2:10:11)



“God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things on earth or in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation.” (Col. 1:19, 21, 22)



“the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:21)



“good tidings of great joy will be to all people.” (Luke 2:10)



Jesus “heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.” (Heb. 1:2)



“as God gave Jesus authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as God gave Him.” (John 17:2)



the Father “has given all things into Jesus’ hands.” (John 13:3)



"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (John 6:39)



Jesus “was the true light which gives light to every man who come into the world.” (John 1:9)



“just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.” (Rom. 5:18)



Jesus is “able even to subdue all things to Himself.” (Phil. 3:21)



Jesus came “that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.” (Eph. 1:10, 11)



“the Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)



“God was Christ reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: be reconciled to God.” (2 Cor. 5:19, 20)



“all the nations shall be blessed.” (Gal 3:8)



“the Bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives Life to the world.” (John 6:33)



“Love your enemies, bless those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.” (Matt. 5:44, 45)



“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (drag in the Greek) all mankind unto Myself.”



"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (John 6:34)



“creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope, because creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” (Rom. 8:20, 21)



“the Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hands.” (John 3:35)



“since by man came death, by man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all died, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” (1 Cor. 15:22)



"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:" (Romans 3:22)



Jesus “is the image of the invisible God, the first born over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.” (Co. 1:15, 16)



“all shall know the Lord, from the least of them to the greatest of them.” (Heb. 8:11)



“the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.” (Titus 2:11)



"And all flesh shall see the salvation of God." (Luke 3:6)





“do not repay evil for evil.” (Rom. 12:17)



“if anyone’s work which he has built endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved yet so as through fire.” (1 Cor. 3:14, 15)



“of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen” (Rom. 11:36)



“all Israel will be saved.” (even enemies of The Gospel) (Rom. 11:26)



“Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.” (2 Cor. 5:14)



“the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Cor. 11:3)



"all nations shall come and worship You, for your judgments have been made manifested.” (Rev. 15:4)



“when God’s judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.” (Isaiah 26:9)



"Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son-" (John 5:22)



“mercy shall triumph over judgment.” (James 2:13)



“where sin abounded, grace abounded much more.” (Rom. 5:20)



“every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever.” (Rev. 5:13)



“you would not have condemned the guiltless.” (Matt. 12:7)



“God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the gentiles, which is Christ in you the hope of glory. Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.” (Col. 1: 27, 28)



“all nations whom God has made will come and worship before Him” (Psalm 86:9)



God’s “mercy endures forever.” (1 Chron. 16:34)



God’s Spirit “will be poured out on all flesh.” (Joel 2:28)



“Come, and let us return to the Lord, for He has torn, but He will heal us. He has stricken, but He will bind us. After 2 days, He will revive us. On the third day He will raise us up that we may live in His sight.” (Hosea 6:1, 2)



“the Lord had made bare His Holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.” (Isaiah 52:10)



“the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.” (Isaiah 40:5)



God will “open His hand and satisfy the desire of every living thing.” (Psalm 145:16)



God is “gracious in all His works.” (Psalm 145:17)



“the earth is the Lord’s and all its fullness, the world and those who dwell therein.” (Psalm 24:1)



“all the kings of the earth shall praise you, O Lord, when they hear the words of your mouth.” (Psalm 138:4)



God “reveals Himself by those who did not ask for Him: He was found by those who did not seek Him.” (Isaiah 65:1)



“the Lord is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and great in mercy. The Lord is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works. All your works shall praise you, O Lord.” (Psalm 145:8-10)



“all the ends of the world shall remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall worship before You. All those who go down to the dust (death) shall bow before You.” (Psalm 22:27, 29)



“O You Who hear prayer, to you all flesh will come. Iniquities prevail against me; as for our transgressions, you will provide atonement for them.” (Psalm 65:2-4)



“through the greatness of your power your enemies shall submit themselves to you. All the earth shall worship You and sing praises to you.” (Psalm 66:3, 4)



“through the Lord’s mercies we are not consumed, because His compassions fail not. They are new every morning. Great is your faithfulness.” (Lam. 3:21-24)



“the Lord will not cast off forever. Though He causes grief, yet He will show compassion according to the multitude of His mercies.” (Lam. 3:31, 32)



“there is no God besides Me, a just God and Savior; There is none besides Me. Look to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath. He shall say, surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, and all shall be ashamed who are incensed against Him. In the Lord all the descendants of Israel shall be justified and shall glory.” (Isaiah 45:21-25)



“in this mountain the Lord of Hosts will make for all people a feast of choice pieces, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of well-refined wines on the lees. And he shall destroy on this mountain the surface of the covering cast over all nations. He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord will wipe away tears from all faces.” (Isaiah 25:6-8)



“all the nations of the earth shall be blessed.” (Gen. 18:18)



“all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” (Gen. 12:3, 28:14)



“it shall come to pass the saying that is written: ‘death is swallowed up in victory. Oh, Death, where is your sting Oh, Hell (Hades) where is your victory.’ The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us victory though our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Cor. 15:54-58)



IS THIS ENOUGH???



Enough to tell you that you misunderstand a lot of the messages of the Bible, do you know why? There were a "couple" who, I assure you, will not receive forgiveness from God. So not ALL would be saved, right?



I don't disagree to all those you quoted.....but I certainly disagree to your interpretation of those things.





Some people, perhaps like you, will admit that the "gift" of God is eternal life, but that He has hidden it so well that nearly none can find or open that gift.



I say one would have to be blind to miss it, and we know who the "cause" of blindness is eh?



Can it be considered that a person who sees only the verses/chapters he wants to see as "spiritually blind?" If so, please tell him to read my first response to Brother seer on this thread, will you, please?



The blinds are the ones who do not have understanding, nor cannot realize the error, in their faith/hope/belief, don't you agree?

Do you now see?

[smaller]

I am very much in doubt you understand the mystery of the law at all. If you can understand the mystery of sin then you can understand the mystery of the law.

Oh? Please elaborate. I do have certain knowledge of both matters of Law and matters of this particular mystery.


It is true that a dead person do not sin; and that seem what you understood from the verse because of your Universalist leaning, I presume.

I understand that Paul presented that "sin" was "no longer I" and that "sin" dwelt in his flesh as well as "evil" was present with him. When the body dies the spirit returns to God who gave it and the inhabitants of the flesh who are the enemies are forced to seek another home.

But Paul is not literally speaking of death on the physical term, but death on the spiritual term.

The "spirit" does not die, nor has the spirit ever died nor is it possible for the spirit to die. I agree that Paul was speaking in both a metaphorical manner when saying to render ourselves dead to sin, as a forerunner of the eventual reality of that separation.


In fact, Paul said to the Romans, note that they were still living, " Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin..." Right now I am dead in the flesh, and like Paul, I confess that "For I through the law am dead to the law[i], that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

This does not negate the "fact" that when one ceases "in the flesh" one is no longer "bound" to sin's indwelling. Kinda takes the "sting" out of "death" eh?

First, I am not denying that all have sinned, OK? What I am against is as if, by quoting Romans 5:14, you believed that all have sinned because we bore the sin of other person,

I have no idea where that thought came from. "Sin entered" by one man. Obviously sin "entered" that one man. This does not make sin the "same as" that one man. Sin "multiplies" and "grows." As more "seed" is sown, more tares are formed and grow as well.


or should we say you believed of the Original Sin. I quoted Exekiel 18:20 that deny the concept of Original Sin.

It was never possible for God's Children to "sin." All people are God's Children. We are all however "bound to" disobedience. This has a "Divine Purpose." Romans 11:32

I would rather say though that your "interpretation" of Romans 5:14 is incompatible to Ezekiel 18:20.

Do not "presume" my position for me. Original sin is SATAN who was a liar and a murderer from the beginning and has also sinned from the beginning. That is what God formed the anti-Christ to do. Satan did not "create" himself (or itself-I do not believe anti-life has an "eternal" identity.)

]Now, if you believed all have sinned because we bore somebody's sin, then it is your "interpretation" of Romans 5:14 is that which does not make sense. Consequentially, your understading of Romans 11:32 does not also make sense. But, of course, there is a right interpretation of those verses that indeed make sense.

I think you'll find a clear clean two edged sword in my hand regarding mankind and sinkind. I do not "mix" the two. Most do and are then "confused."

Going back to my first response unto you. The reason I want you to read my response unto brother seer is, basically, for you to take note about conflicting messages in the Bible, and also of the danger of being literally discerned. Evidently, you fall to those errings, and without even fully understanding your interpretations you claimed to be making sense.

Please elaborate. I see physical reality as an allegory of the spiritual reality. Perhaps a new spin for you? So I see "nothing" in the "literal." Only a reflection of what is "really" happening.







Do you see the underlined above? Wrong understanding. I am explaining what Paul is really saying and you are plainly showing your ignorance. Don't you know that Paul is talking specifically of the Law of Moses that is why he speaks of death reigning from Adam to Moses? Didn't you noticed the significance why Paul mentioned "from Adam to Moses?

Yes, and elaborated the same in the last post. Did you miss it???

Death "reigned" apart from The Law given to Moses that was meant to UNDENIABLY reveal the "presence of" sin within the body of God's Children. Yes, ALL of Isreal were and ARE God's Children. Deut. 14:1 et al.

But the law was "added" because of transgressions.

]There are two laws of God. One given unto Moses, and the other is that which is written in the saint's hearts and minds of the saints.

The Law remains The Law in either case. If a man's heart says "do not murder" it is the "same as" The Written Letter that is meant to "kill" such things. The Law was always "written against the lawless" and "for" God's Children.


With all those ways you explain and coupled by you mentioning "The Law of God" I discerned that you are actually ignorant of what Paul is talking about.

Oh? How is that?

The reason Paul did not expound more about death reigning from Adam to Moses is because he mentioned already the explanation in that epistle. That meant Paul speaks of that principle in Romans 2:14-15.

The position of death reigning and the law written on the hearts of the Gentiles are somewhat connected in that on the one hand the heart of the Gentiles upon who the law was written in heart, are not first excusing, then accusing. This is also the "work" of The Law.

Read again the OP, just in case you are missing something.Don't understimate me. See below.

I see that you "negate" The Law, as well as condemn your fellow, mankind, regardless of the command to love your neighbor as yourself. This also is condemned by The Law of Moses and of Love.

]Enough to tell you that you misunderstand a lot of the messages of the Bible, do you know why? There were a "couple" who, I assure you, will not receive forgiveness from God. So not ALL would be saved, right?

Oh? Please elaborate "who" these two are.

I do believe in every damnation text, and in eternal damnation. Just not for people.

I don't disagree to all those you quoted.....but I certainly disagree to your interpretation of those things.

Oh? How is that? They seem straight forward enough in their presentation, and the abundance of the presentation is certainly not for lack.

Can it be considered that a person who sees only the verses/chapters he wants to see as "spiritually blind?" If so, please tell him to read my first response to Brother seer on this thread, will you, please?

If there is some "magical" little twist in there that you keep referring me to, please elaborate. I read it and made the conclusions that you presented. Here. I'll go read it again right now.

Same conclusion. My prior response was that the undeniable position of Paul, even though "under faith" was that Paul still served THE LAW, and clearly said so etc etc. The Law is not our enemy. It is written "against" the lawless.

Now you claim "allegorical" understanding. How is it that you cannot see "the cause" of "sin?" It is a mystery and cannot be "seen" with "physical eyes" yet we can observe "it's works" in the flesh of "all" mankind for "all" have sin and have sinned. An active tense and a past tense scenario.

The blinds are the ones who do not have understanding, nor cannot realize the error, in their faith/hope/belief, don't you agree

The ones who are blinded are blinded by the "god" of this world.

I do not condemn "captive slaves" but seek to help them, as Jesus did.

enjoy!

smaller

[7thangel]

My dear brother smaller,



While reading your response, I can’t help but recollect my self when I was a neophyte trying to understand the word of God. I guess, I was pretty much the same of what you do now; trying to give meaning to a verse by fitting them to other verses on a literal sense; which stage of methodology I find really helpful in my spiritual growth. And though I was good in juggling verses, and that it came to me nicely, I still had the problem of finding the true meaning of “being born again,” “in the flesh,” “the letter killeth,” “saved by the blood,” etc. What I realize of myself is that I was hearing and seeing(reading) the Word of God but I do not actually perceive and understand them. All the while I am restating things without really understanding nor perceiving them. And then there was a time I came to realize that my interpretations do not fit the “common sense, wisdom, and understanding.” But now I passed that stage, and I thank God for getting me out of such stage of foolishness. Now I do interpret the verses and words that fit the common sense, wisdom, and understanding, and not in conflict of the whole message of God.



So I challenge you to search yourself, to examine if your interpretations fit the common sense, wisdom, and understanding. My evaluation of your responses on this thread is that you are doing much worst than what I did before. And I have to say that it is futile to discuss to you the perfect understanding of the meaning of the verses if you have set yourself to remain a folly, nor of not knowing the foolishness of your interpretations. Please do not think my words to be an act of harshness, but rather consider it as a brotherly advise.



BTW, I was talking of the couple Ananias and Sapphira who committed an unforgivable sin. Since the OP is about “mystery of sin,” wouldn’t you mind to explain to me the verity of the unforgivableness of their sins in comparison to other saint’s sin without showing God’s unfairness in dealing with sin? Perhaps, this is a better topic to deal about because the OP challenges us to know what sin really is. I wish to see if your really understand sin, and of whether your understanding really fit common sense, wisdom, and understanding.

I apologize for responding late.

Sincerely.

7thangel

[smaller]

My dear brother smaller,



While reading your response, I can’t help but recollect my self when I was a neophyte trying to understand the word of God. I guess, I was pretty much the same of what you do now

Save the lame backhand for some other rookie.

; trying to give meaning to a verse by fitting them to other verses on a literal sense; which stage of methodology I find really helpful in my spiritual growth.

Thought we covered this territory already. I take a dual view of the scriptures. The text is literal with many subtleties underneath in layers that become apparent through "exposure."

And though I was good in juggling verses, and that it came to me nicely, I still had the problem of finding the true meaning of “being born again,” “in the flesh,” “the letter killeth,” “saved by the blood,” etc. What I realize of myself is that I was hearing and seeing(reading) the Word of God but I do not actually perceive and understand them. All the while I am restating things without really understanding nor perceiving them. And then there was a time I came to realize that my interpretations do not fit the “common sense, wisdom, and understanding.” But now I passed that stage, and I thank God for getting me out of such stage of foolishness. Now I do interpret the verses and words that fit the common sense, wisdom, and understanding, and not in conflict of the whole message of God.

The point of which is what? At the end of the day you will still have a "reflection" that is imprinted "from" your handling of God´s Word.

So I challenge you to search yourself, to examine if your interpretations fit the common sense, wisdom, and understanding. My evaluation of your responses on this thread is that you are doing much worst than what I did before. And I have to say that it is futile to discuss to you the perfect understanding of the meaning of the verses if you have set yourself to remain a folly, nor of not knowing the foolishness of your interpretations. Please do not think my words to be an act of harshness, but rather consider it as a brotherly advise.

All that rambling is your vain attempt to dodge a very simple observation about The Law.

BTW, I was talking of the couple Ananias and Sapphira who committed an unforgivable sin. Since the OP is about “mystery of sin,” wouldn’t you mind to explain to me the verity of the unforgivableness of their sins in comparison to other saint’s sin without showing God’s unfairness in dealing with sin?

Both of them are in heaven as we write. How is that for "dealing fairly?"


Perhaps, this is a better topic to deal about because the OP challenges us to know what sin really is. I wish to see if your really understand sin, and of whether your understanding really fit common sense, wisdom, and understanding.

Sin is "of the devil" NOT the same as mankind. Sin stands condemned and sentenced and awaiting execution.

The Judgment upon it is destruction and The Law stands as it´s perpetual revealing and condemnation.