Jesus Christ the Jewish Messiah

[shunyadragon]

I started this thread, because goose felt it did not relate to his thread - Ant-Torah Jesus is not the Messiah. I do consider it relavent and related.

I believe Jesus was a very Jewish messiah and not Anti-Torah. He was a reformer and challenged contemporary Judaism on hypocrasy and over emphasis of following the law in a self-serving way. He also preached that the Jews must face a changing world and the heart of the Torah was not the blind following of antiquated social laws. Something that divides Judaism today.

It is absurd to follow antiquated social laws, but which ones do you follow?
In reality is blindly absurd to follow the Law of the Torah as it is completely today, How do you chose which laws to follow?

Some of the responses to gooses thread cite Matthew for quotes by Jesus endorsing the Law of the Torah and the prophets. I acknowledge those as true, but it is Paul who took the biggest step seperating Christianity from the Law and its Judaic roots.

I believe that Christ did fulfill prophecies from the OT, but I also believe some of the references to the prophecies in the NT are overstatements and some not correct.

Christianity became distinctly Anti-Torah when it took on the Greco-Roman cloak of a world empire.

In taking this unorthodox stance I believe that the NT is not literal or free from errors. This view also assumes the traditional Christian Trinitarian view of Christ is false.

Genesis 3:15 refers to the plural lineage of messiahs for all of humanity all over the world and not just Christ.

[learning]

What Old Testament Messianic prophesies do you believe that Jesus Christ, or Joshua, or Yeshua, fulfilled?

Why do you believe Genesis 3:15, to be plural?

[Sacrificial Ram]

I started this thread, because goose felt it did not relate to his thread - Ant-Torah Jesus is not the Messiah. I do consider it relavent and related.

I believe Jesus was a very Jewish messiah and not Anti-Torah. He was a reformer and challenged contemporary Judaism on hypocrasy and over emphasis of following the law in a self-serving way. He also preached that the Jews must face a changing world and the heart of the Torah was not the blind following of antiquated social laws. Something that divides Judaism today.

It is absurd to follow antiquated social laws, but which ones do you follow?
In reality is blindly absurd to follow the Law of the Torah as it is completely today, How do you chose which laws to follow?

Some of the responses to gooses thread cite Matthew for quotes by Jesus endorsing the Law of the Torah and the prophets. I acknowledge those as true, but it is Paul who took the biggest step seperating Christianity from the Law and its Judaic roots.

I believe that Christ did fulfill prophecies from the OT, but I also believe some of the references to the prophecies in the NT are overstatements and some not correct.

Christianity became distinctly Anti-Torah when it took on the Greco-Roman cloak of a world empire.

In taking this unorthodox stance I believe that the NT is not literal or free from errors. This view also assumes the traditional Christian Trinitarian view of Christ is false.

Genesis 3:15 refers to the plural lineage of messiahs for all of humanity all over the world and not just Christ.
Well, Jesus didn't accomplish what the Jewish Messiah should accomplish.
There still is war, there still is sin, and the Jewish people are still scattered
throughout the world.

Jesus also didn't have children.. one requirement from Ezek 46:16.

The Jewish messiah was also just supposed to be a man. Not a god, but just a man.

[learning]

Well, Jesus didn't accomplish what the Jewish Messiah should accomplish.
There still is war, there still is sin, and the Jewish people are still scattered
throughout the world.

Jesus also didn't have children.. one requirement from Ezek 46:16.

The Jewish messiah was also just supposed to be a man. Not a god, but just a man.


Well, one could say that we, Christians, could be called His children.

Many believe that He is redeeming us from sin.And that there will be a final atonement of sin removed from the earth and heaven, perhaps the new heaven and new earth.

Also many of the Jewish people who are scattered throughout the world will return or are returning to Israel (and I believe that there is a prophecy that says that this also will include the children of Israel that were sent away, that they too will come back, and that the 'land will be so full of them, that it will not be able to hold them all) There is a Christian organziation that is actually helping Jewish people return to Israel, it is called, I believe, 'Christians for Israel' and they have helped to pay the way for Jewish persons to return to Israel, from say, Russia or the Ukraine, where they (the Jewish persons) were being persecuted so badly.(ie, Jewish graves being desecrated, etc.)

Many believe that Jesus Christ's peace is internal, but there will also, in the end, be peace. Isaiah 11. (one of the most beautiful pieces of literature in the Bible, and in all of mankind's writings, I believe)

[Sacrificial Ram]

Well, one could say that we, Christians, could be called His children.

Many believe that He is redeeming us from sin.And that there will be a final atonement of sin removed from the earth and heaven, perhaps the new heaven and new earth.

Also many of the Jewish people who are scattered throughout the world will return or are returning to Israel (and I believe that there is a prophecy that says that this also will include the children of Israel that were sent away, that they too will come back, and that the 'land will be so full of them, that it will not be able to hold them all) There is a Christian organziation that is actually helping Jewish people return to Israel, it is called, I believe, 'Christians for Israel' and they have helped to pay the way for Jewish persons to return to Israel, from say, Russia or the Ukraine, where they (the Jewish persons) were being persecuted so badly.(ie, Jewish graves being desecrated, etc.)

Many believe that Jesus Christ's peace is internal, but there will also, in the end, be peace. Isaiah 11. (one of the most beautiful pieces of literature in the Bible, and in all of mankind's writings, I believe)
However, that is not what the Jewish people believe . And, for a messiah to be the Jewish messiah, that messiah has to match the Jewish requirements for a messiah.

People still sin, and since that condition still happens, the Jewish messiah has not come yet. Got tall boots to fill, that Jewish messiah.

[shunyadragon]

Well, Jesus didn't accomplish what the Jewish Messiah should accomplish.
There still is war, there still is sin, and the Jewish people are still scattered
throughout the world.I do not think the Messiah that Jesus fulfilled was the one to end all wars. there will always be sin as long as humans are human. I do not believe the end of sin is prophesied in the OT.

The scattering of the Jews was prophesied.

Jesus also didn't have children.. one requirement from Ezek 46:16. I believe Jesus did have sisters and at least one brother, was likely married and could have had a child.

The Jewish messiah was also just supposed to be a man. Not a god, but just a man.I believe he was a man, the son of God and son of man, not a Greco-Roman God.

[Sacrificial Ram]

I do not think the Messiah that Jesus fulfilled was the one to end all wars. there will always be sin as long as humans are human. The scattering of the Jews was prophesied.

I believe Jesus did have sisters and at least one brother, was likely married and could have had a child.


I believe he was a man, the son of God and son of man, not a Greco-Roman God.
One of the requirements of the Jewish messiah it to be from the direct male line of David, through solomon. Jospeh was not, from the genologies given.

So, it all depends on what you mean 'son of god'. We are all the 'son of man' (slang for human), but 'son of god' has many various meaning throught the millenium.

[shunyadragon]

One of the requirements of the Jewish messiah it to be from the direct male line of David, through solomon. Jospeh was not, from the genologies given.I believe the genologies are incomplete and not necessarily accurate. Probably a third or more of all Hebrews of the time carried some of David's genes. I believe Jesus was who he was and it changed world despite the follies of human vanity.

So, it all depends on what you mean 'son of god'. We are all the 'son of man' (slang for human), but 'son of god' has many various meaning throught the millenium.Yes it depends, but I am not the fool to count the angels on the head of a pin or split frog hairs to define the nature of God or the son of God to my satisfaction.

[shunyadragon]

What Old Testament Messianic prophesies do you believe that Jesus Christ, or Joshua, or Yeshua, fulfilled?

Why do you believe Genesis 3:15, to be plural?
The following is what I posted from another thread.

The truth is that Zera (Zerah) can be feminine, masculine or refer to the plural they. I am neither a Bible scholar nor an expert in Hebrew, but over the years I have checked proper translation of words in important quotes of the Bible, like essential and important prophesies used by Christians. When I have a question on Hebrew I check with people knowledgable in Hebrew, for Greek I check Greek scholars, and usually more than one. Years ago when I wanted to understand this passage better I consulted several Hebrew scholars and got consistent answers as I found now in this reference noted below.

The advantage I have is that I am not biased either way as to whether the passages in Genesis are prophecies for Jesus Christ, but based on my research the passages are general in nature referring to the desendents of Eve and not one man a messiah but plural. This coraborates with other references to zera in the OT.

http://www.messiahtruth.com/gen315.html (http://www.messiahtruth.com/gen315.html)

[Goose]

Shuny,

The very fact that you say Jesus kept Torah, but then reformed Torah, precludes him from being the Messiah, as stated in Deutoronomy 13. Torah is perfect, and never changes. Plus, you seem to not understand that the oral Torah and written Torah, are considered equal Torah.

[shunyadragon]

Shuny,

The very fact that you say Jesus kept Torah, but then reformed Torah, precludes him from being the Messiah, as stated in Deutoronomy 13. Torah is perfect, and never changes. Plus, you seem to not understand that the oral Torah and written Torah, are considered equal Torah.I expected this issue to come up and I have a general answer, which comes from a more practical look at the history of religions and laws. I will address more specific issues later concerning the Law that never changes.

The claim of Laws that never change are found in almost all religions, and as religions grow older and older, the laws become less practical and relavent to a changing and evolving world. In fact attempts to continue to observe the ancient laws of most religions today would only cause unnecessary suffering may get you put in jail for violating more relevant laws of civilized nations today.

Humanity has not always had the Law of the Torah as it is, and no one completely observes the Law of the Torah today. This is a fact of life where the idealism of conservative religion becomes irrelevant to the needs of today. I believe there are two forms of the Law of the Torah. The first is the unchanging law for all humanity and existence itself. The second is the temporal law that deals with the needs of the time they are made. It is not difficult to come up with examples of Laws for each case, but at this point in the debate I will not draw a line. Examples of the unchanging laws of the Torah, like 'Thou shalt not commit murder' and 'Honor thy parents', are found throughout all cultures and religions of the world.

Part of the message of Jesus Christ was change. He both observed the law, renewed the law and changed the law as Moses did. This is one of the roles of a messiah. The messiah ushers in a new age of change for a constantly changing and evolving humanity. To fail to change means to become irrelevant.

I see pragmatism and humanism as mechanism that people used to deal with the changing and evolving world as religions become antiquated. This is most apparent in the practice of Judaism today. It is unfortunately also a source of conflict and division. A religion divides by three mechanisms. The first is where people selectively pick and choice and reinterprete religion to try and get it to fit a changing world. The second is were some strive to return to pure and unadulterated religion of their ancient forfathers. The third is many abandon religion entirely for the fortress of reason, logic and humanism.

One point I wish to make clear is this is not necessarily my opinion it is the realty of how the role of religion functions in the world today.

My question to you do you or any Hebrew on the face of the earth make any attempt to observe every Law of the Torah?

Let him who observes every law cast the first stone.

[learning]

I don't think Jesus reformed Torah, I think He said 'The word cannot be broken' did He not?
I think He was trying to turn His people back to the heart of the matter. I was just reading Isaiah 55 today.

here is verse 10,11
"As the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."

btw the last verse, I heard of a minister who was planting some trees in Israel a few years ago, and he pricked his hand on a thorn bush as he was doing so, and he thought of this verse and tears came to his eyes
Isaiah 55:13
"Instead of the thorn bush will grow the pine tree,
and instead of briers the myrtle will grow.
This will be for the Lord's renown,
for an everlasting sign, which will not be destroyed."

[shunyadragon]

I don't think Jesus reformed Torah, I think He said 'The word cannot be broken' did He not?
I think He was trying to turn His people back to the heart of the matter. I was just reading Isaiah 55 today.

here is verse 10,11
"As the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."

btw the last verse, I heard of a minister who was planting some trees in Israel a few years ago, and he pricked his hand on a thorn bush as he was doing so, and he thought of this verse and tears came to his eyes
Isaiah 55:13
"Instead of the thorn bush will grow the pine tree,
and instead of briers the myrtle will grow.
This will be for the Lord's renown,
for an everlasting sign, which will not be destroyed."
I believe he did reform the Torah in the sense he gave the existing laws a broader deeper meaning for humanity. I do not use reform necessarily to mean change. I use reform here as Christ did where he showed that following some Laws of the Torah to the extreme literal interpretation was absurd in a modern changing world.

I also believed he changed the law as in the laws for divorce for the new age he brought to humanity.

The '. . . everlasting sign, which will not be destroyed.' is the more fundimental eternal Laws of the Torah, which will never change.

[theseed]

Christianity became distinctly Anti-Torah when it took on the Greco-Roman cloak of a world empire.
I agree. The Rom Church, specifically Constatines Chruch (I think) outlawed Judaism and put to death any Christians who kept the Torah.

Genesis 3:15 refers to the plural lineage of messiahs for all of humanity all over the world and not just Christ.

For the whole world, or all of humanity? I disagree. I beleive that only part of humanity is spared from Satan's blows. I realize that the "messiah" simply means annointed, so we must distinguish between a messsiah and The Messiah.

[shunyadragon]

I agree. The Rom Church, specifically Constatines Chruch (I think) outlawed Judaism and put to death any Christians who kept the Torah.

For the whole world, or all of humanity? I disagree. I believe that only part of humanity is spared from Satan's blows. I realize that the "messiah" simply means annointed, so we must distinguish between a messsiah and The Messiah.This does not really make sense from the point of view of a God who cares for the world and all humanity. Genesis is the beginning and here God tells all humanity that he will never leave them alone. He will be with all humanity always teaching them to be spared from the blows of the consequences of turning away from God and the law.

The egocentric view of exclusiveness of God's relation with just one people in just one place, in just one way is basically what turned me off to the religions of the past.

This is a far different world we live in and it is time to end the violance of the violence of 'My God your God' ego trip. What is the logic behind '. . . only part of humanity, my part, will be saved'?

[theseed]

This does not really make sense from the point of view of a God who cares for the world and all humanity.
Where is that found in The Bible? John 3.16 says that he wanted to save believers, but it is in the subjunctive meaning that not all people believe. Also, you would be remiss if you don't realize the wrath of God toward the world.

The egocentric view of exclusiveness of God's relation with just one people in just one place, in just one way is basically what turned me off to the religions of the past.
God has always sought out the people to redeem. Adam and Eve hid because of thier sin, but God sought them out. God's selectivity is explicit throughout the entire Bible.


This is a far different world we live in and it is time to end the violance of the violence of 'My God your God' ego trip. What is the logic behind '. . . only part of humanity, my part, will be saved'?
Who is being violent? Not me. It is not a matter of logic, but a matter of truth as revealed by God himself in The Bible.

[shunyadragon]

Where is that found in The Bible? John 3.16 says that he wanted to save believers, but it is in the subjunctive meaning that not all people believe. Also, you would be remiss if you don't realize the wrath of God toward the world.

God has always sought out the people to redeem. Adam and Eve hid because of thier sin, but God sought them out. God's selectivity is explicit throughout the entire Bible.

Who is being violent? Not me. It is not a matter of logic, but a matter of truth as revealed by God himself in The Bible.
God's selectivity is not '. . . only part of humanity, my part, will be saved', but refers to those who reject God. My view is the universal one were all humanity is offered the choice, of course some refuse and deny God, but the choice is universal with all humanity throughout all history.

[learning]

This is getting off topic, but I tend to agree with Shunyadragon here

There is a Bible verse, 'He is not willing that any should perish'
I know this is getting into the predestination, free will thing, but I tend to lean towards the Arminian side, I think. But I know there are verses for both sides.
'Jacob have I loved...'
'the potter and the clay' etc.

[shunyadragon]

This is getting off topic, but I tend to agree with Shunyadragon here

There is a Bible verse, 'He is not willing that any should perish'
I know this is getting into the predestination, free will thing, but I tend to lean towards the Arminian side, I think. But I know there are verses for both sides.
'Jacob have I loved...'
'the potter and the clay' etc.
Agreed, but okay. I think the Jewish Jesus demonstrated free will in using judgement when it is proper to follow the Torah sincerely and when the decisions reflect an absolute blind following the letter of the Law that negates the power of human judgement and choices.

[theseed]

God's selectivity is not '. . . only part of humanity, my part, will be saved', but refers to those who reject God. My view is the universal one were all humanity is offered the choice, of course some refuse and deny God, but the choice is universal with all humanity throughout all history.
The choice may be universal, but it does not mean that all of humanity will be saved as you indicated in your OP

[shunyadragon]

The choice may be universal, but it does not mean that all of humanity will be saved as you indicated in your OP
The belief of a lineage of messiahs for the whole world is supportable in Genesis 3:15. If revelation is only through the 'rabbanic messiahs' or the ultimate 'one time only' salvation through the one messiah, how did the millions of people in the rest of the world recieve the message.

[theseed]

The Bible is clear that part of humanity will not be saved, and will be in hell. Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.

[shunyadragon]

The Bible is clear that part of humanity will not be saved, and will be in hell. Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.
The simplicity and bluntness of this statement requires no response.

[Timothy Leary]

Shuny,

The very fact that you say Jesus kept Torah, but then reformed Torah, precludes him from being the Messiah, as stated in Deutoronomy 13. Torah is perfect, and never changes. Plus, you seem to not understand that the oral Torah and written Torah, are considered equal Torah.

Yet your Rabbis reform Torah by adding and taking away from it.

[shunyadragon]

Yet your Rabbis reform Torah by adding and taking away from it.
Interesting comment. I illuded to this earlier in referring to the history of Judaism and the observance of the Torah. I would like you to comment further.

[Timothy Leary]

Interesting comment. I illuded to this earlier in referring to the history of Judaism and the observance of the Torah. I would like you to comment further.

Like... how? (sorry, late at night, and i'm deprived of caffiene)

[shunyadragon]

Like... how? (sorry, late at night, and i'm deprived of caffiene)
In ancient history Judaism was divided along tribal and priestly lineage (I think, please correct me if I am wrong). In recent history when the jews came back together these old divisions did not carry the same importance. The divisions in Judaism today seem to revolve more around the degree and nature of what it means to obey the Laws of the Torah. The degree of relavence of the Laws to today seems to be an issue of reform minded Jews.

How do rabbis change the law over time and make decisions as to whether observe or not observe certain laws?

How does this differ between oral and writen law?

This in reality may be better discussed in another thread.

[Goose]

Yet your Rabbis reform Torah by adding and taking away from it.
That statement is false, because your understanding of Torah is false. Torah exists whether it is written down, or not. (orthodox)Rabbi's don't add, or take away from Torah. They teach, explain and describe Torah. If I get rid of my TN"K, do I still have Torah? If a rabbi gives instructions, is this not Torah(instructions)?

[theseed]

That statement is false, because your understanding of Torah is false. Torah exists whether it is written down, or not. (orthodox)Rabbi's don't add, or take away from Torah. They teach, explain and describe Torah. If I get rid of my TN"K, do I still have Torah? If a rabbi gives instructions, is this not Torah(instructions)?
It is one thing to teach Torah, but it is entirely another thing to establish Torah. Only YHWH as established Torah, and it is forever (Isaiah 40.8)

[Timothy Leary]

That statement is false, because your understanding of Torah is false. Torah exists whether it is written down, or not. (orthodox)Rabbi's don't add, or take away from Torah. They teach, explain and describe Torah. If I get rid of my TN"K, do I still have Torah? If a rabbi gives instructions, is this not Torah(instructions)?

When The Torah says one thing, and the Rabbis says another thing, then they violate Dev. 4:2

[shunyadragon]

When The Torah says one thing, and the Rabbis says another thing, then they violate Dev. 4:2
For example, I now of many Laws in the Torah today that could not be realistically followed and I see other laws that are questionably interpreted.

In another thread I read that in Orthodox Judaism today my understanding is that it is forbidden to hunt animals. This is very problematic as far as the Torah is writen. I could understand forbidding trapping, but not hunting. Fishing is in reality hunting.

[kofh2u]

The belief of a lineage of messiahs for the whole world is supportable in Genesis 3:15. If revelation is only through the 'rabbanic messiahs' or the ultimate 'one time only' salvation through the one messiah,...

...HOW DID the millions of people in the rest of the world recieve the message.


Angels?

Rev. 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel, (perhaps the Bab), to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and
the bright and morning star (Neptune, discovered 1844AD).

[Goose]

When The Torah says one thing, and the Rabbis says another thing, then they violate Dev. 4:2
Like?

[Timothy Leary]

I posted a GYM challenge a while ago on this subject... how about we take it there?

[Timothy Leary]

Well here's one for you:

Torah allows Polygamy, and sets down rules for it. You can't marry your wife's sister, etc.

Askhenazi Halakah, however, forbids it.

[kofh2u]

Well, Jesus didn't accomplish what the Jewish Messiah should accomplish.
There still is war, there still is sin, and the Jewish people are still scattered
throughout the world.

Jesus also didn't have children.. one requirement from Ezek 46:16.

The Jewish messiah was also just supposed to be a man. Not a god, but just a man.


1) Sacrificial Ram:
The Jewish messiah was also just supposed to be a man."

KOFHY: Absolutely.
Christians are referred to their book of Revelation 5:5.

2) Sacrificial Ram:
"Jesus also didn't have children.. one requirement from Ezek 46:16."

KOFHY:
Yoi are right about the children's inheritance.
But, you apply the concept to messiah ben Joseph.

The king of the Jews, messiah ben David, is "just a man."

Messiah Ben David's heirs are the children who reign after him.

3) Sacrificial Ram:
"There still is war"....

KOFHY:
But, not for much longer. (Zechariah 9:9)

By His spirit world peace begins in the Middle East. (Zech 9:16)

Not by might nor by power, but by his spirit,... the Holy Spirit to be found in the hearts of the 144,000 Christian "soldiers"... (Rev 7, Isaiah 60, 61, 62, 66, +) ... are being amassed right now.

"Isa. 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud (from the Americas), and as the doves (of peace) to their (cathedral) windows?"


This is why Zechariah predicts that there shall be "great mourning in Jerusalem as for the mourning of an only son, with bitterness for the first born."

He comes upon the clouds (read: airliners), and his angels (Christian evangelistic tourists by the millions) with him.

Zech. 8:13 And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, (those who have already been gather into the State of Israel), and house of Israel (lost tribes throughout America and the world); so will I, (by my Spirit), save you and ye shall be a blessing (to the Christian World): fear not, but let your hands be strong.

[Richbee]

Well here's one for you:

Torah allows Polygamy, and sets down rules for it. You can't marry your wife's sister, etc.

Askhenazi Halakah, however, forbids it.

I don't believe that Polygamy existed in Israel during the time of Y'Shua - Jesus.

Re: Polygamy and the Bible

The first case of polygamy recorded in the Scriptures had to do with a descendant of the infamous Cain, Lamech, who “took unto him two wives” (Gen. 4:19). The manner in which the practice is introduced into the Bible, (in obvious contrast to 2:24) reveals that it did this did not represent the ideal "family".

Later in Old Testament history, polygamy was practiced to some extent; both David and Solomon, for example, were polygamists. Again, this is not viewed as ideal, and the troubles these two endure through life bear witness.

Yet, this IS tolerated under the Mosaic regime. And, YET - *NOT* the divine ideal, and it never brought genuine happiness to those who indulged. In most cases, polygamy accelerated even greater levels of unacceptable conduct. (See 1 Kings 11:1-3)

In direct contrast, Jesus taught that the divine pattern is that “the two [not three, four, etc.] shall become one flesh” (Mt. 19:5). Polygamy mars the “one flesh” ideal.

The monogamous family is God’s authorized plan for marriage until the end of time. The New Testament takes for granted the relationship of one man for one woman in the marriage arrangement (See 1 Cor. 7:2; 9:5; Eph. 5:23ff).

[Richbee]

I believe the genologies are incomplete and not necessarily accurate.

You might benefit from the 1874 classic An Examination of the Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible - by John W. Haley, or the more recent Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties - by Gleason L. Archer (Zondervan).

Some have asserted that a “contradiction” exists between Matthew’s and Luke’s accounts:

"The two genealogies of Jesus do not contradict each other.

For something to be a contradiction, there cannot be any possible reconciliation, or so say Moi! Several viable explanations are possible, such as this one suggested by Gleason L. Archer:

Matthew 1:1-16 gives the genealogy of Jesus through Joseph, who was himself a descendant of King David. As Joseph’s adopted Son, Jesus became his legal heir, so far as his inheritance was concerned....

Luke 3:23-28, on the other hand, seems to record the genealogical line of Mary herself.... This seems to be implied by the wording of v. 23:

“Jesus. . . being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph?

Christian tradition teaches and the NT reveals that Jesus was not really the biological son of Joseph,. . . Mary. . . must of necessity have been the sole human parent through whom Jesus could have descended from a line of ancestors. Her genealogy is thereupon listed, starting with Heli, who was actually Joseph’s father-in-law, in contradistinction to Joseph’s own father, Jacob (Matt. 1:16.... Therefore Jesus was descended from David naturally through Nathan and legally through Solomon."

[Richbee]

The belief of a lineage of messiahs for the whole world is supportable in Genesis 3:15. If revelation is only through the 'rabbanic messiahs' or the ultimate 'one time only' salvation through the one messiah, how did the millions of people in the rest of the world recieve the message.


What is God’s purpose in His election of the Jewish people?

The greatest rabbis and theologians have wrestled with the nuances of this question. Yet the Almighty has chosen to reveal even to the simplest of the faithful the essence of what he wishes us to know on the subject of this wonderful mystery. Kitvei ha-Qodesh, in the books of prophetic witness, teaches that God elected Israel as his covenanted community (keneset yisrael) to be "a light unto the nations."

Acts 4:12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.

"Y’Shua means "the Lord saves."

It involves a combination of the name YHWH (the Ineffable Name) and the Hebrew root YASHA’'. YASHA’' is related to an Arabic word, "to make wide, to make sufficient" as contrasted with TSARAR, meaning "narrow." Wideness came to connote "freedom" or "safety" which led to the root YASHA', having the meaning: to be delivered to a position of freedom or safety.

In the Tenach, God is presented as the source of salvation, "Our God is a God who saves" (Psalm 68:20). Human agents are effective only as they are empowered by God. Ultimately, salvation had only one source--The Lord:

"...And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other" (Isaiah 45:21b,22).

Although many of our people assume that the Tenach speaks only of salvation from physical distress, this is not so; the concept developed in the sacred writings to specify the promise of salvation from sin:

Salvation From What?

"They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their dwelling places where they sinned, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God..." (Ezekiel 37:23).

"Save me from bloodguilt, O God, the God who saves me, and my tongue will sing of your righteousness" (Psalm 51:14). "Help us, O God, our Savior, for the glory of your name; deliver us and atone for our sins, for your name's sake" (Psalm 79:9).

Indeed, in Jeremiah 17:14 salvation is portrayed as a means of healing the effects of sin in our life and our relationship with God:

"Heal me, O Lord, and I will be healed; save me and I will be saved, for you are the one I praise."

Jeremiah also specifies that God's chosen agent of salvation is the Messiah. We see this in the passage quoted earlier (Jeremiah 23:6).

The Inevitable Name

The divine choice of Y’shua as the name for the Messiah has a "holy inevitability" and an iron clad logic. Salvation comes only from the Lord. The Messiah is the One through whom God accomplishes and culminates salvation. No wonder, then, that the angel told Joseph,

"You are to give him the name Y’Shua--the Lord saves--for he will save his people from their sins."

Y’Shua - Why that name? - Click Here (www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/03-10/yshua.htm)

[shunyadragon]

What is God’s purpose in His election of the Jewish people?

The greatest rabbis and theologians have wrestled with the nuances of this question. Yet the Almighty has chosen to reveal even to the simplest of the faithful the essence of what he wishes us to know on the subject of this wonderful mystery. Kitvei ha-Qodesh, in the books of prophetic witness, teaches that God elected Israel as his covenanted community (keneset yisrael) to be "a light unto the nations."


This still leaves the question basically unanswered.

[Richbee]

This still leaves the question basically unanswered.


Keep it simple:

Salvation must come through the Jews.

One Messiah: Two Appearances! (www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/05-08/firstthings.htm)

The New Covenant presents another option, consistent with the Hebrew Scriptures. There will only be one Messiah, and according to this theory, he has already come once to fulfill the role of the suffering Messiah. He suffered and died, not only for the sins of Israel, but for the whole world. His name is Jesus (Y'shua), the Hebrew word for "salvation."

Jesus' earthly career did not fulfill the rabbinic speculations about Messiah ben Joseph. But he did fulfill the words of Moses and the Prophets concerning the suffering and lowly Messiah. After his death, God raised him from the dead, and he ascended into heaven. He will return in the clouds at the end of days, bringing eternal and victorious rule over the world.

The New Covenant presents us with one Messiah who will come two times--once to atone for our sins, and once to defeat God's enemies, and thus establish his kingdom on the earth. The Messiah has two major tasks to accomplish. Though he comes twice to accomplish both, he is one and the same person--Jesus.

(See hotlink above)

[shunyadragon]

Keep it simple:

Salvation must come through the Jews.

One Messiah: Two Appearances! (http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/05-08/firstthings.htm)

The New Covenant presents another option, consistent with the Hebrew Scriptures. There will only be one Messiah, and according to this theory, he has already come once to fulfill the role of the suffering Messiah. He suffered and died, not only for the sins of Israel, but for the whole world. His name is Jesus (Y'shua), the Hebrew word for "salvation."

Jesus' earthly career did not fulfill the rabbinic speculations about Messiah ben Joseph. But he did fulfill the words of Moses and the Prophets concerning the suffering and lowly Messiah. After his death, God raised him from the dead, and he ascended into heaven. He will return in the clouds at the end of days, bringing eternal and victorious rule over the world.

The New Covenant presents us with one Messiah who will come two times--once to atone for our sins, and once to defeat God's enemies, and thus establish his kingdom on the earth. The Messiah has two major tasks to accomplish. Though he comes twice to accomplish both, he is one and the same person--Jesus.

(See hotlink above)
Still leaves the question basically unanswered.

[Sacrificial Ram]

KOFHY:
But, not for much longer. (Zechariah 9:9)

By His spirit world peace begins in the Middle East. (Zech 9:16)

If you think that world peace will come anytime in the next 100 years, I am afraid you will be sadly mistaken.

And, if it is brought about by the work of a man, that man would be someone alive today, not someone 2000 years dead.

[kofh2u]

Still leaves the question basically unanswered.

Jewish tradition and the uninspired Talmud support two messiahs, one from the gentic root of Jos ph, the second from the gentic line of David.
The Christians agrue the two are genetically derived from the same line, the House of David, and that they are clone-like reproductions if not non- human extraordinary manifestations of YHVH, physically, corporally, and spiritually.

Nevertheless, if we ignor the genetics, which perhaps we will dare not investigate, TWO... two times the same appearance, TWO different ages, the dame appearance or not... two seems to be the number.

Now, Jews who recognize the affront they have continued for 2000 years if TWO is the accepted number deny their tradiion and reverse the understandings in the Talmud.

Hence, they look for the messiah ben David, as do the Christians:

Rev. 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open THE BOOK, and to loose the SEVEN SEALS (7) thereof.

(The Talmud is more than a "bracketed" opinion regarding the meaning of scripture. The Talmud has superceded the Old Testament in that it is the final authority in what it ancient sages understood the OT to say.)

[kofh2u]

You might benefit from the 1874 classic An Examination of the Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible - by John W. Haley, or the more recent Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties - by Gleason L. Archer (Zondervan).

Some have asserted that a “contradiction” exists between Matthew’s and Luke’s accounts:

"The two genealogies of Jesus do not contradict each other.

For something to be a contradiction, there cannot be any possible reconciliation, or so say Moi! Several viable explanations are possible, such as this one suggested by Gleason L. Archer:

Matthew 1:1-16 gives the genealogy of Jesus through Joseph, who was himself a descendant of King David. As Joseph’s adopted Son, Jesus became his legal heir, so far as his inheritance was concerned....

Luke 3:23-28, on the other hand, seems to record the genealogical line of Mary herself.... This seems to be implied by the wording of v. 23:

“Jesus. . . being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph?

Christian tradition teaches and the NT reveals that Jesus was not really the biological son of Joseph,. . . Mary. . . must of necessity have been the sole human parent through whom Jesus could have descended from a line of ancestors. Her genealogy is thereupon listed, starting with Heli, who was actually Joseph’s father-in-law, in contradistinction to Joseph’s own father, Jacob (Matt. 1:16.... Therefore Jesus was descended from David naturally through Nathan and legally through Solomon."


A close study of the gnealogy listed in Luke proves very difficult as many of the names are just not verifiable. The two genealogies do poise a problem if they are used to demonstrate a clear genetic link of Jesus back to David.

I believe the reason for these two different lines rests upon totally different foundations, that their purpose is that they are not only both true, but unconcerned with this idea of genetics.

They are credibly concerned with "raising the dead."
Hmmm...
That is sort of genetic too, I guess, in a far out way, the h8man genome as a "resting place" for the human soul which canand is and will be... resurrected. But, that isn't exactly what I mean.

[shunyadragon]

A close study of the gnealogy listed in Luke proves very difficult as many of the names are just not verifiable. The two genealogies do poise a problem if they are used to demonstrate a clear genetic link of Jesus back to David. As far as the geneology of Jesus it is a rather hypothetical issue concerning the geneology conflicts and accuracy. Probably almost all the Hebrews of the time fit the geneology requirements of the the desendents of the chosen people.

I believe that Mary and Joesph are the legitimate parents and descendents of the house of David and Jesus is the Jewish messiah.

If your born in the briar patch it is difficult to determine which thorn stuck you, your mother or grandmother. In other words everybody within the Hebrew world are cousins and everybody is related.

[kofh2u]

As far as the geneology of Jesus it is a rather hypothetical issue concerning the geneology conflicts and accuracy. Probably almost all the Hebrews of the time fit the geneology requirements of the the desendents of the chosen people.

I believe that Mary and Joesph are the legitimate parents and descendents of the house of David and Jesus is the Jewish messiah.

If your born in the briar patch it is difficult to determine which thorn stuck you, your mother or grandmother. In other words everybody within the Hebrew world are cousins and everybody is related.

You make an good point, no doubt.
I too agree that Jesus is the Jewish messiah.

The Jewish community has an on going investment in these arguments because they use them to deprogram Christianized Jews.
As with all religions, the "churches" they build have members coveted by other organizations.

The once universal Roman Catholics lost half of the two billion Christians in the Protestant Movement.

The Jews lost many converts during the first century AD, and continue to do so.

The Egyptiansl ost many Pharoahites to Moses.

Its a game to some extent, each side manufacturing" argument, if need be. I am always astonished that religiois people are so defensive and so rigid in tneir certainy. Not about belief in God, nor their bottom line conviction that they know the message of Jexus. It is their defense of religious teaching and dogma that seems ridiculed by what they admit they do not know.

The list is enormous, but in the Christian community, the do not define elemental terminology, even.

For instance, Hell is metaphysically described by some as God's torture chamber for bad people.

But, realism and rationality is emerging, the Pope now claims Hell is not a physical place, but that it is a mental state. He us roundly condemned by other denominations.

The Jews have no clue concerning the construction of their lost Urim and Thummim, Ex 28:30. The Christians are often driven to renounce the Book of Revelation because they have no clue about so much, like the "hidden manna."

Neither Jew nor Christian church wants any theories about these this, either. Because, if they don't know, if they don't have the key to such ideas, they don't want anyone else to open the door, either, because they fear their "sheep" will get out.

[Drashi]

Jewish tradition and the uninspired Talmud support two messiahs, one from the gentic root of Jos ph, the second from the gentic line of David.
Actually it doesn't.

The "Ben Yosef" Moshiach, in the Talmud specifically indicates that "Moshiach ben Yosef" is the equivilant of what you might call an "anti-Moshiach" - evil, deceptive, self-serving, and despised by G-d, to be killed by G-d at the end of days before the coming of the Moshiach. (Sukkah 52a is very specific on this). The Talmud also explains that this tradition is metaphorical, that the title is another for the Evil Inclination, or "Yetzer HaRah".

Do you really want to associate such a dispicable metaphorical character with Jesus?

Finally, in Judaism, you cannot inherit a tribal lineage from the mother, only the physical father because the status of the woman was transient since she would be acquired from one house to another (for example, a Kohain woman who marries into the tribe of Benjamin and has a son, well if the boy tries to do any jobs assigned to the Kohanim, he will be executed). So her lineage was pointless, except establishing that she is a Jew. This was established to eliminate tribal area allocation problems.

There is also no Biblical Hebrew word for "adoption" or "step-father". The non-child would be considered a "house guest", and would be treated well. The Aramaic word for "Family" had "zera" at it's root, meaning "from the seed of the master of the house". Hence, "You shall count the children accoring to the house of their father" has an important meaning. And so Joseph provides nothing to his wife's kid.

Example, my wife has 4 children. Her first husband was a Levi. Her children are Levi'im. She divorced him. The remained Levi'im. We eventually meet and marry. My father was not Jewish (like Jesus - G-d was not a Jew) and I accept those children as my own, but they do not lose their paternal connection, and they are never part of mine. (According to modern Jewish Law, any rightes given to me by the govenrment I can pass on to my wife, but not to her children).

Just some points.

[Chavak]

Jesus Christ the Jewish Messiah


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA_HA!

No he is not! He is definitely not our messiah!

[sylvius]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA_HA!

No he is not! He is definitely not our messiah!

Are there any non-Jewish messiahs then?

[John Goddard]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA_HA!

No he is not! He is definitely not our messiah!

Without Jesus, the Devil is your Messiah, according to our Bible.

[Chavak]

Are there any non-Jewish messiahs then?

Only false messiahs....although there have been plenty of false Jewish
messiahs too...

[mitzi]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA_HA!

No he is not! He is definitely not our messiah!

Chavak;

Even though back then that the Jewish people were awaiting the Messiah to come. Wasn't there something that was said about there being a Messiah in every generation. Even if you hadn't read the NT the people back then even thought of the same notion...and I'll give you a scrip to back it up with. [John 7:31]: "When the Messiah appears, will he do more signs than this man has done?

I always took it as in scripture..A man had two sons, and he came to the first, and said, ‘Son, go work today in my vineyard.’ He answered, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he changed his mind, and went. He came to the second, and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I go, sir,’ but he didn’t go. Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said to him, "The first."

[mitzi]

However, that is not what the Jewish people believe . And, for a messiah to be the Jewish messiah, that messiah has to match the Jewish requirements for a messiah.

People still sin, and since that condition still happens, the Jewish messiah has not come yet. Got tall boots to fill, that Jewish messiah.

Right but who will make the endorsement (according to Torah) on the Messiah's identity? Since a Prophet (and the Prophet can take the authority of a king) and even the question of the Sanhedrin still needs to be determined . The Sanhedrin can not operate at full strength b/c they are not on the Temple Mount, the nation must determine (as a whole) to follow Mosaic law (since the Sanhedrin) will be considered as the "eyes of the nation" Deuteronomy 17:11 instructs us that we "shall not deviate" from the rulings issued by this court ( and the court determination by the Sanhedrin-for the entire nation) and until that time they can not appoint a king. In one respect it states that the people will set a king upon themselves Deuteronomy 17:14 but then on the other hand, the king is described as being chosen by God (and I think I brought this point up in a past post). You then read in the era before the State of Israel was established, the prophet could effectively served in the role of "king" with consent of a majority of the people.

There are many factors involved...in order to determine a king

See websites:

[URL="http://www.chayas.com/"]Torath Moshe Society (http://www.chayas.com/)

Vayikra by Rabbi Yaakov Menken
(http://www.torah.org/learning/lifeline/5759/vayikra.html)

Jewish Law (http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/litigation_in_secular_courts4.html)--read entire article (note the last paragraph)

[shunyadragon]

Are there any non-Jewish messiahs then?

It sort of depends on your world view if you take the narrow limited view of any one ancient world religion, than no, there are no other messiahs other than the ones you approve of from your own view point, and your own cultural measuring stick. This gives the atheists and agnostics plenty of justification that these ancient world views are ancient arrogant, egoistic constructs of human imaginations.

From a more universal diverse perspective, if God has a universal compassionate view to all humanity, yes the messiah appeared to all cultures at different times and places, and called by different names, and in a progressive cyclic evolving manner in revelation like the rest of his creation. The only boundaries are those created by humans regardless of which is true.

[Salty]

From a more universal diverse perspective, if God has a universal compassionate view to all humanity, yes the messiah appeared to all cultures at different times and places, and called by different names, and in a progressive cyclic evolving manner in revelation like the rest of his creation. The only boundaries are those created by humans regardless of which is true.And yet it could be pointed out that these alleged messiahs brought contradictory, rather than progressive, revelations, often condemning those of his previous incarnations. That fact either invalidates the idea of many messiahs, or paints God as wishy-washy.

[shunyadragon]

And yet it could be pointed out that these alleged messiahs brought contradictory, rather than progressive, revelations, often condemning those of his previous incarnations. That fact either invalidates the idea of many messiahs, or paints God as wishy-washy.

I call this view Newtonian Theology. It first assumes fallible humans can preserve and understand the revelation form God in a rather mechanistic simplistic manner without the obvious corruption, cultural burden and limitations of ancient cultures where the revelation took place. It only invalidates it within arrogant egocentric world views were the believers think their the only chosen people inthe world.

Where does God condemn previous revelations?

No it does not paint God as wishy-washy, but universal and compassionate, and not arbitrarily selective, and the jealous despot of the ancient world view portrayed in the Bible.

[shunyadragon]

Only false messiahs....although there have been plenty of false Jewish
messiahs too...

This is a rather egocentic human judgment as to what is false and true, like if it agrees with what I believe it is true, if it does not it is false.

Does God leave the whole world uninformed over the millennia, while choosing only one special tribe to be the chosen people?

This represent only an ancient world view, nothing more.

[tomsawyer25]

There are several subjects here that I think are often argued about and misunderstood:

The first is Jesus and the Law. Jesus's putting faith and righteousness above religious observance was very well in the traditions of the prophets. The prophets even mocked the worship of Israel for being vain. To regard religious commandments as secondary to more important commandments is not to do away with the Law. We could argue that Rabbinic Judaism is anti-Torah for its coutless additions and subtractions from the Mosaic Law. The New Testament is no more anti-Law than the rabbinic tradition is. Do Orthodox Jews cancel debts every seven years? Do they ever charge interest?

Paul called the Law -Holy, righteous and good. He did not place great importance on turning Gentiles into Torah-observant Jews. He and the early councils decided that it would be a terrible idea. At no point, does Paul instruct Jewish communities to disregard the Sabbath and start eating pig. There is spiritual liberty in those areas for Gentiles. Jewish believers would naturally continue with the appointed times of the Bible. In fact many thousands did, and do today. Where is the great mystery regarding the Law? If we have grace, we are moved forward in fulfilling it. However living highly orthodox lives is not a main requirement.

Messiah: Jesus fulfilled an enormous number of Messianic prophesies, either completely or in partial fulfillment. There is no other competitor as far as that goes. No one is even close. Jesus will reign as king on His return. If you really demand that all prophesy be completely fulfilled in a short period of time, you might as well write off all the Biblical prophets as false ones. They would have been proven false long ago.

When someone says -- Jesus didn't fulfill Judaism's requirements for Messiah, what they are often saying is -- Jesus didn't fulfill Maimonodes' requirements for Messiah. Or this rabbi's or that rabbi's. However, the Bible's requirements for Messiah come first. Let's see. ..Someone from Bethlehem of Judea, goes to their atoning death at the time prophesied by Daniel, fulfills numerous Messianic requirements, and then brings the light of God to countless millions of the nations, and this is some kind of accident? An odd coincidence? This is Messiah.

If you read much of what rabbinic Judaism has said regarding Messiah in the past, and somewhat in the present, what is interesting is that much rabbinic literatured recognizes a messiah incredibly like Jesus of Nazareth. He would suffer and die for our sins. He would be resurrected at some later date, he would have a soul of God in him (some say this today regarding Menachem Schneerson), He is from eternity, and even that he has already come in the past. The rabbinic tradition is very broad, and definitely includes many of the main characteristics of Jesus.

Why then continue to insist that the suffering Messiah is a mystery to us? I don't know, but I'm sure God is using this tragic insistence for good. Today, despite centuries of being told that Jesus is not Jewish, nor anyone who believes on Him, there has been a strong resurgence of Messianic Judaism. There are thousands now in Israel alone for whom Yeshua is the core of their Judaism.

Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. He did not arrive to convert us to away from our faith. But to convert us back to God. Not to be less Jewish. But to be moreso. If being Jewish actually means to be sheltered away in a community doing thousands of rabbinic requirements, or if it merely means to drop by the Jewish community center from time to time and eat Jewish food, then may God help us all. Really. Being Jewish is fulfilled in Jesus.

Be blessed

Tom

[mitzi]

There are several subjects here that I think are often argued about and misunderstood:

The first is Jesus and the Law. Jesus's putting faith and righteousness above religious observance was very well in the traditions of the prophets. The prophets even mocked the worship of Israel for being vain. To regard religious commandments as secondary to more important commandments is not to do away with the Law. We could argue that Rabbinic Judaism is anti-Torah for its coutless additions and subtractions from the Mosaic Law. The New Testament is no more anti-Law than the rabbinic tradition is. Do Orthodox Jews cancel debts every seven years? Do they ever charge interest?

Paul called the Law -Holy, righteous and good. He did not place great importance on turning Gentiles into Torah-observant Jews. He and the early councils decided that it would be a terrible idea. At no point, does Paul instruct Jewish communities to disregard the Sabbath and start eating pig. There is spiritual liberty in those areas for Gentiles. Jewish believers would naturally continue with the appointed times of the Bible. In fact many thousands did, and do today. Where is the great mystery regarding the Law? If we have grace, we are moved forward in fulfilling it. However living highly orthodox lives is not a main requirement.

Messiah: Jesus fulfilled an enormous number of Messianic prophesies, either completely or in partial fulfillment. There is no other competitor as far as that goes. No one is even close. Jesus will reign as king on His return. If you really demand that all prophesy be completely fulfilled in a short period of time, you might as well write off all the Biblical prophets as false ones. They would have been proven false long ago.

When someone says -- Jesus didn't fulfill Judaism's requirements for Messiah, what they are often saying is -- Jesus didn't fulfill Maimonides' requirements for Messiah. Or this rabbi's or that rabbi's. However, the Bible's requirements for Messiah come first. Let's see. ..Someone from Bethlehem of Judea, goes to their atoning death at the time prophesied by Daniel, fulfills numerous Messianic requirements, and then brings the light of God to countless millions of the nations, and this is some kind of accident? An odd coincidence? This is Messiah.

If you read much of what rabbinic Judaism has said regarding Messiah in the past, and somewhat in the present, what is interesting is that much rabbinic literatured recognizes a messiah incredibly like Jesus of Nazareth. He would suffer and die for our sins. He would be resurrected at some later date, he would have a soul of God in him (some say this today regarding Menachem Schneerson), He is from eternity, and even that he has already come in the past. The rabbinic tradition is very broad, and definitely includes many of the main characteristics of Jesus.

Why then continue to insist that the suffering Messiah is a mystery to us? I don't know, but I'm sure God is using this tragic insistence for good. Today, despite centuries of being told that Jesus is not Jewish, nor anyone who believes on Him, there has been a strong resurgence of Messianic Judaism. There are thousands now in Israel alone for whom Yeshua is the core of their Judaism.

Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. He did not arrive to convert us to away from our faith. But to convert us back to God. Not to be less Jewish. But to be moreso. If being Jewish actually means to be sheltered away in a community doing thousands of rabbinic requirements, or if it merely means to drop by the Jewish community center from time to time and eat Jewish food, then may God help us all. Really. Being Jewish is fulfilled in Jesus.

Be blessed

Tom

Agree, it was to convert us back to God.

9:1-7 The Syrians and Assyrians first ravaged the countries here mentioned, and that region was first favoured by the preaching of Christ. Those that want the gospel, walk in darkness, and in the utmost danger. But when the gospel comes to any place, to any soul, light comes. Let us earnestly pray that it may shine into our hearts, and make us wise unto salvation. The gospel brings joy with it. Those who would have joy, must expect to go through hard work, as the husbandman, before he has the joy of harvest; and hard conflict, as the soldier, before he divides the spoil. The Jews were delivered from the yoke of many oppressors; this was a shadow of the believer's deliverance from the yoke of Satan. The cleansing the souls of believers from the power and pollution of sin, would be by the influence of the Holy Spirit, as purifying fire. These great things for the church, shall be done by the Messiah, Emmanuel. The Child is born; it was certain; and the church, before Christ came in the flesh, benefitted by his undertaking. It is a prophecy of him and of his kingdom, which those that waited for the Consolation of Israel read with pleasure. This Child was born for the benefit of us men, of us sinners, of all believers, from the beginning to the end of the world. Justly is he called Wonderful, for he is both God and man. His love is the wonder of angels and glorified saints. He is the Counsellor, for he knew the counsels of God from eternity; and he gives counsel to men, in which he consults our welfare. He is the Wonderful Counsellor; none teaches like him. He is God, the mighty One. Such is the work of the Mediator, that no less power than that of the mighty God could bring it to pass. He is God, one with the Father. As the Prince of Peace, he reconciles us to God; he is the Giver of peace in the heart and conscience; and when his kingdom is fully established, men shall learn war no more. The government shall be upon him; he shall bear the burden of it. Glorious things are spoken of Christ's government. There is no end to the increase of its peace, for the happiness of its subjects shall last for ever. The exact agreement of this prophecy with the doctrine of the New Testament, shows that Jewish prophets and Christian teachers had the same view of the person and salvation of the Messiah. To what earthly king or kingdom can these words apply? Give then, O Lord, to thy people to know thee by every endearing name, and in every glorious character. Give increase of grace in every heart of thy redeemed upon earth.

Isaiah 9 >>Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Bible (http://bible.cc/isaiah/9-2.htm)

Isaiah 9:2; 1 John 1:7; John 12:35; Matthew 5:14-16


Christ taught that "life"—eternal life—is available only through God's Spirit (John 6:63). Paul explained that, "if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit [which] dwells in you" (Romans 8:11).

[shunyadragon]

There are several subjects here that I think are often argued about and misunderstood:

The first is Jesus and the Law. Jesus's putting faith and righteousness above religious observance was very well in the traditions of the prophets. The prophets even mocked the worship of Israel for being vain. To regard religious commandments as secondary to more important commandments is not to do away with the Law. We could argue that Rabbinic Judaism is anti-Torah for its coutless additions and subtractions from the Mosaic Law. The New Testament is no more anti-Law than the rabbinic tradition is. Do Orthodox Jews cancel debts every seven years? Do they ever charge interest?

Paul called the Law -Holy, righteous and good. He did not place great importance on turning Gentiles into Torah-observant Jews. He and the early councils decided that it would be a terrible idea. At no point, does Paul instruct Jewish communities to disregard the Sabbath and start eating pig. There is spiritual liberty in those areas for Gentiles. Jewish believers would naturally continue with the appointed times of the Bible. In fact many thousands did, and do today. Where is the great mystery regarding the Law? If we have grace, we are moved forward in fulfilling it. However living highly orthodox lives is not a main requirement.

Messiah: Jesus fulfilled an enormous number of Messianic prophesies, either completely or in partial fulfillment. There is no other competitor as far as that goes. No one is even close. Jesus will reign as king on His return. If you really demand that all prophesy be completely fulfilled in a short period of time, you might as well write off all the Biblical prophets as false ones. They would have been proven false long ago.

When someone says -- Jesus didn't fulfill Judaism's requirements for Messiah, what they are often saying is -- Jesus didn't fulfill Maimonodes' requirements for Messiah. Or this rabbi's or that rabbi's. However, the Bible's requirements for Messiah come first. Let's see. ..Someone from Bethlehem of Judea, goes to their atoning death at the time prophesied by Daniel, fulfills numerous Messianic requirements, and then brings the light of God to countless millions of the nations, and this is some kind of accident? An odd coincidence? This is Messiah.

If you read much of what rabbinic Judaism has said regarding Messiah in the past, and somewhat in the present, what is interesting is that much rabbinic literatured recognizes a messiah incredibly like Jesus of Nazareth. He would suffer and die for our sins. He would be resurrected at some later date, he would have a soul of God in him (some say this today regarding Menachem Schneerson), He is from eternity, and even that he has already come in the past. The rabbinic tradition is very broad, and definitely includes many of the main characteristics of Jesus.

Why then continue to insist that the suffering Messiah is a mystery to us? I don't know, but I'm sure God is using this tragic insistence for good. Today, despite centuries of being told that Jesus is not Jewish, nor anyone who believes on Him, there has been a strong resurgence of Messianic Judaism. There are thousands now in Israel alone for whom Yeshua is the core of their Judaism.

Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. He did not arrive to convert us to away from our faith. But to convert us back to God. Not to be less Jewish. But to be more so. If being Jewish actually means to be sheltered away in a community doing thousands of rabbinic requirements, or if it merely means to drop by the Jewish community center from time to time and eat Jewish food, then may God help us all. Really. Being Jewish is fulfilled in Jesus.

Be blessed

Tom

My argument is that you are still arguing from a narrow ancient cultural perspective, which is a problem from a universal perspective. This presents a problematic that this God operates with in this narrow perspective negating the rest of humanity.

Your contorting concept of conversion with the more polite euphemistic return to God, which is in reality would be conversion from what you believed before to believe what you think is the true belief of 'returning to God.'

[tomsawyer25]

My argument is that you are still arguing from a narrow ancient cultural perspective, which is a problem from a universal perspective. This presents a problematic that this God operates with in this narrow perspective negating the rest of humanity.

Hi, Well I apreciate the reply. I'm afraid I don't really know what you mean by "from a narrow ancient cultural perspective". I don't see how God's sending Yeshua in any way negates "the rest of humanity". In fact it seems just the opposite, if you know what I mean.

Your contorting concept of conversion with the more polite euphemistic return to God, which is in reality would be conversion from what you believed before to believe what you think is the true belief of 'returning to God.'

Conversion as a return to God is anything but polite and euphamistic. It is a valid definition of conversion. Believing on Yeshua as the bearer of our sins and Son of God does not demand changing belief in scripture nor does it demand changing a number of traditional understandings of scripture. It is very Jewish.

There are certainly some rabbinic concepts which are incompatible with the Gospel, true, but I don't see why these consepts alone should define "Judaism". They don't. As far as changing from previous beliefs, Judaism's long and winding history has included plenty of changing of beliefs. Should these changes have been considered as defining a new religion?

Yeshua is a core part of the Jewish spiritual calling. In fact it is the deepest and most far reaching part. Israel will fulfill his spiritual calling in an immense way when he believes on the Messiah Yeshua.

[mitzi]

I call this view Newtonian Theology. It first assumes fallible humans can preserve and understand the revelation form God in a rather mechanistic simplistic manner without the obvious corruption, cultural burden and limitations of ancient cultures where the revelation took place. It only invalidates it within arrogant egocentric world views were the believers think their the only chosen people in the world.

Where does God condemn previous revelations?

No it does not paint God as wishy-washy, but universal and compassionate, and not arbitrarily selective, and the jealous despot of the ancient world view portrayed in the Bible.

First, does the Baha'i faith have some different views on the concepts of the Messiah? So if one faith says to another "I know the true way" does that mean that all others are in the wrong? We know that Moses lead the Israelites out of Egypt and that Moses gathered together "all" the Israelites to receive the law/Torah. The law was given to a people *the Israelites* and from there the law went forth from Sinai; and we read this in Deuteronomy 33:

The Blessing of Moses

1 Now this is the blessing with which Moses the man of God blessed the sons of Israel before his death. 2 He said, “The LORD came from Sinai, And dawned on them from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran, And He came from the midst of ten thousand holy ones; At His right hand there was flashing lightning for them.
3 “Indeed, He loves the people; All Your holy ones are in Your hand, And they followed in Your steps; Everyone receives of Your words.
4 “Moses charged us with a law, A possession for the assembly of Jacob.


We also understand that when the Israelites had accept the “yoke” of the law they entered into a contractual agreement with God. They would acknowledge God as their sole ultimate king and legislator, agreeing to obey his laws; God, in turn, would acknowledge Israel as his particular people and be especially mindful of them.
So the term “chosen” is given as to a people who “chose” to accept the law, they chose to proclaim God's message to all the nations as would Christians be a light to all nations but both religions (as all others) feel a deep sense of responsibility in their love for God in a very spiritual way, as one who has been faithful/obligated/spiritual/respectfully. Can those who have been chosen be called any other way?

[mitzi]

Conversion as a return to God is anything but polite and euphamistic. It is a valid definition of conversion. Believing on Yeshua as the bearer of our sins and Son of God does not demand changing belief in scripture nor does it demand changing a number of traditional understandings of scripture. It is very Jewish.

There are certainly some rabbinic concepts which are incompatible with the Gospel, true, but I don't see why these concepts alone should define "Judaism". They don't. As far as changing from previous beliefs, Judaism's long and winding history has included plenty of changing of beliefs. Should these changes have been considered as defining a new religion?

Yeshua is a core part of the Jewish spiritual calling. In fact it is the deepest and most far reaching part. Israel will fulfill his spiritual calling in an immense way when he believes on the Messiah Yeshua.


When you write about changing of beliefs are you referring to the changing of concepts of what the Messiah's authority will be and also how to identify him?

[Salty]

... Jesus fulfilled an enormous number of Messianic prophesies, either completely or in partial fulfillment.Partial fulfillment? Partial fulfillment? Partial fulfillment? Can you say, "oxymoron"? I knew that you could.

[John Goddard]

Partial fulfillment? Partial fulfillment? Partial fulfillment? Can you say, "oxymoron"? I knew that you could.

Same as Jews believe Elijah partially fulfilled his duties and will return to finish them.

[Salty]

I call this view Newtonian Theology. It first assumes fallible humans can preserve and understand the revelation form God in a rather mechanistic simplistic manner without the obvious corruption, cultural burden and limitations of ancient cultures where the revelation took place. It only invalidates it within arrogant egocentric world views were the believers think their the only chosen people inthe world.Hardly.

First, I assert that God is intelligent and capable enough to communicate with lowly humans in such a manner as to be beyond any "cultural burdens or limitations", and has done. If your god can't or hasn't, then, well, that's why I don't worship your god.

Second, I trust Him to have placed such revelations in the hands of people who will preserve it intact.

Third, none of the critical contradictions to which I refer have any roots in cultural attributes. For example, it is not a cultural thing when a scripture says something like "God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man that he should change His mind." So when a new text comes along and says the opposite, that God became a man, that's an unresolvable contradiction. Another example is when one text says over and over that God hates and will not accept human sacrifice, and the next bases one of its most important tenets on "the ultimate human sacrifice." Again, we have another unresolvable contradiction with no ties to any cultural burdens or limitations.

Where does God condemn previous revelations?I never said He condemned His own revelations, you pulled that assumption from your own belief system's definition of God, not mine.

[Salty]

Paul called the Law -Holy, righteous and good. He did not place great importance on turning Gentiles into Torah-observant Jews. He and the early councils decided that it would be a terrible idea. At no point, does Paul instruct Jewish communities to disregard the Sabbath and start eating pig.That directly conflicts with the "there is no more Jew nor Gentile in Christ" statement Paul made.

Jesus fulfilled an enormous number of Messianic prophesies, either completely or in partial fulfillment.He fulfilled no actual messianic prophecy. Not one.

When someone says -- Jesus didn't fulfill Judaism's requirements for Messiah, what they are often saying is -- Jesus didn't fulfill Maimonodes' requirements for Messiah. Or this rabbi's or that rabbi's. However, the Bible's requirements for Messiah come first. Let's see. ..Someone from Bethlehem of JudeaThat's only a small part of the prophecy. Christianity conveniently ignores the rest.

goes to their atoning deathWhere's this prophecy?

at the time prophesied by Daniel, fulfills numerous Messianic requirementsAgain, no, he didn't.

and then brings the light of God to countless millions of the nations,No, the prophecy says all men and all nations will know the One, True God. Since that is obviously not today's reality, it should be equally obvious that this prophecy hasn't been fulfilled.

If you read much of what rabbinic Judaism has said regarding Messiah in the past, and somewhat in the present, what is interesting is that much rabbinic literatured recognizes a messiah incredibly like Jesus of Nazareth. He would suffer and die for our sins. He would be resurrected at some later date, he would have a soul of God in him (some say this today regarding Menachem Schneerson), He is from eternity, and even that he has already come in the past.Please give references to this alleged "rabbinic literature".

Why then continue to insist that the suffering Messiah is a mystery to us?Why, indeed? If this literature says what you say it does, then why do the rabbis--all of whom revere the Talmud almost as much as Torah--ignore just this one little bit? This is just another version of the absurd notion that Jews intentionally ignore the messiah that they are looking for, just to spite Christians, I guess. I don't know what motivation would fit this bizarre and inconsistent behavior.

[Salty]

Same as Jews believe Elijah partially fulfilled his duties and will return to finish them."Duties" are not the same as "prophecies". Apples and oranges.

[John Goddard]

"Duties" are not the same as "prophecies". Apples and oranges.

How do you know Elijah is going to return to finish fulfilling his duties if not for prophecies about it? :duh:

[shunyadragon]

First, does the Baha'i faith have some different views on the concepts of the Messiah? So if one faith says to another "I know the true way" does that mean that all others are in the wrong?

No, the Baha'i Faith does not, but different people over time interpret their scripture and beliefs to give different views of the messiah. It is a very human thing.

We know that Moses lead the Israelites out of Egypt and that Moses gathered together "all" the Israelites to receive the law/Torah. The law was given to a people *the Israelites* and from there the law went forth from Sinai; and we read this in Deuteronomy 33:

The Blessing of Moses

1 Now this is the blessing with which Moses the man of God blessed the sons of Israel before his death. 2 He said, “The LORD came from Sinai, And dawned on them from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran, And He came from the midst of ten thousand holy ones; At His right hand there was flashing lightning for them.
3 “Indeed, He loves the people; All Your holy ones are in Your hand, And they followed in Your steps; Everyone receives of Your words.
4 “Moses charged us with a law, A possession for the assembly of Jacob. This represents a snipit of the Hebrew view of Moses, God and the nature of their relationship to God at that time.


We also understand that when the Israelites had accept the “yoke” of the law they entered into a contractual agreement with God. They would acknowledge God as their sole ultimate king and legislator, agreeing to obey his laws; God, in turn, would acknowledge Israel as his particular people and be especially mindful of them.
So the term “chosen” is given as to a people who “chose” to accept the law, they chose to proclaim God's message to all the nations as would Christians be a light to all nations but both religions (as all others) feel a deep sense of responsibility in their love for God in a very spiritual way, as one who has been faithful/obligated/spiritual/respectfully. Can those who have been chosen be called any other way?

There are many peoples all over the world throughout history that make this claim, nothing new, your view is a limited one of only one chosen people in one culture and place in time. This view considers God rather selective of who the chosen people are leaving the rest of the world in the dark and not as you say 'chosen.' This a common egocentric world view of most ancient cultures.

The Baha'i view is universal in that God give all the people throughout history the opportunity to choose.

[shunyadragon]

Hardly.

First, I assert that God is intelligent and capable enough to communicate with lowly humans in such a manner as to be beyond any "cultural burdens or limitations", and has done. If your god can't or hasn't, then, well, that's why I don't worship your god.

My view does consider that God can and does communicate in a manner that is beyond any 'cultural burdens or limitations.' Apparently you believe your God only communicated with one 'chosen' people in one time and place in human history, and the interpretation of the nature of God and the messiah is correct, and the only correct, from this ancient world view.

Second, I trust Him to have placed such revelations in the hands of people who will preserve it intact.

Of course you do, throughout the history of humanity there are hundreds of different variable religions, cultures and belief systems that believe there way is true and preserved intact. From the evidence it is difficult for me to accept any one as the correst true preserved communication from God. Which ever one is correct than leaves God a very selective arbitrary God of only one of these many claims of who is the correct chosen people. This is again a very fallible human view of how things work

Third, none of the critical contradictions to which I refer have any roots in cultural attributes. For example, it is not a cultural thing when a scripture says something like "God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man that he should change His mind." So when a new text comes along and says the opposite, that God became a man, that's an unresolvable contradiction. Another example is when one text says over and over that God hates and will not accept human sacrifice, and the next bases one of its most important tenets on "the ultimate human sacrifice." Again, we have another unresolvable contradiction with no ties to any cultural burdens or limitations.


Your examples reflect a very human understanding and recording of scripture, and yes there are conflicts, but they are very human conflicts. For example, even within the OT or the Torah there are many internal, human sacrifice is recorded to have been preformed by Hebrews.

The view that Jesus is the incarnate God is very Roman cultural view, and interpretation of scripture and not necessarily so. Yes, these are tied to cultural interpretation of a scripture compiled by humans in one time frame. The limits of language and culture at any one time in history clearly limits the understanding of those that wrote or interpret that scripture.

It can be clearly cited in the NT that Jesus states there is only one authority who is in heaven and He is the only 'Source' and witness, and not Jesus himself. Selectively interpreting and jerrymandering scripture is the game to make things come out the way you want them to throughout history.

Those that compiled and wrote the OT and the NT believed in a seven day creation, a an existence ~6000 years and a world flood. It does not work today. There are clearly cultural and language limitations in ancient scriptures.

I never said He condemned His own revelations, you pulled that assumption from your own belief system's definition of God, not mine.[/quote]

[mitzi]

My view does consider that God can and does communicate in a manner that is beyond any 'cultural burdens or limitations.' Apparently you believe your God only communicated with one 'chosen' people in one time and place in human history, and the interpretation of the nature of God and the messiah is correct, and the only correct, from this ancient world view.



Of course you do, throughout the history of humanity there are hundreds of different variable religions, cultures and belief systems that believe there way is true and preserved intact. From the evidence it is difficult for me to accept any one as the correst true preserved communication from God. Which ever one is correct than leaves God a very selective arbitrary God of only one of these many claims of who is the correct chosen people. This is again a very fallible human view of how things work




Your examples reflect a very human understanding and recording of scripture, and yes there are conflicts, but they are very human conflicts. For example, even within the OT or the Torah there are many internal, human sacrifice is recorded to have been preformed by Hebrews.

The view that Jesus is the incarnate God is very Roman cultural view, and interpretation of scripture and not necessarily so. Yes, these are tied to cultural interpretation of a scripture compiled by humans in one time frame. The limits of language and culture at any one time in history clearly limits the understanding of those that wrote or interpret that scripture.

It can be clearly cited in the NT that Jesus states there is only one authority who is in heaven and He is the only 'Source' and witness, and not Jesus himself. Selectively interpreting and jerrymandering scripture is the game to make things come out the way you want them to throughout history.

Those that compiled and wrote the OT and the NT believed in a seven day creation, a an existence ~6000 years and a world flood. It does not work today. There are clearly cultural and language limitations in ancient scriptures.

I never said He condemned His own revelations, you pulled that assumption from your own belief system's definition of God, not mine.[/QUOTE]

You’re correct, God will communicate to whomever “He” chooses-and does not carry any limitations. God created (as Genesis explains) or has given all human beings a “soul”, the soul being of intellect and also being the image of God. To repeat -the soul (and again as Genesis states: “He breathed into his nostrils the soul of life, and man became a living soul.) Thus the soul of any human being has the knowledge of God and the intellect to discern between good and evil, and also was given a free will. (Genesis 1:26) and “this (soul) comes (directly) from the Lord (YY) in heaven” –Let us make a man in our own image, after our likeness”-underlining “LIKENESS”. In a sense, the soul (which carries the essence of God) must collaborate, on constant bases, with us (could it be said that we can all prophesize, but at various degree-or has limitations?-if so, discussing prophet (non Jewish or Jewish) God chooses whomever “He” wills, See Job:
Where then does wisdom come from?
Where does understanding dwell?
It is hidden from the eyes of every living thing ...
God understands the way to it
and he alone knows where it dwells. (Job 28:20-23)
Or even in the passage (1 Cor 2:7) So where does wisdom dwell? What's the hiding-place that only God knows? What is "God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began"?)

Solomon articulates in proverbs “see below". So are the soul and the mind two separate entities? Does the soul (in a mystical sense) clarifies or makes clear on what it hears? If that be the case then God does not have restriction on prophets-he can communicate to anyone, and does, only if one hears and chooses to listen-and is open to unite with God, Proverbs 1:1
The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
4 To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

To Summarize: If Avraham and Moses (both prophet as well as Jewish Prophet) are both recognized within the religious world as prophets along with Jeremiah and Ezekiel-then we can measure the degree as to “what” the person/soul, the mind and soul would have to be “in” and how the soul struggles with not only human being but also how the prophets suffered as they had unified themselves to God for their support. Prophecy, as you say, doesn’t necessary have to be restricted to the Jewish race-although the term “chosen” or the saying “Chosen” had been give to the Jewish people by other people/nations. The prophet prior to or after Moses had delivered messages specifically about their culture (yes) and how they would reach (Abraham) the promise land. The degree of the prophets who came after Moses gave warnings to their own people of Israel if they chose to distant themselves away from God. These prophets chose to deliver the message to their own people but if (again) view through these prophets our own degree faith-through them-on how we (ourselves) should interpret our own relationship with God.

[mitzi]

No, the Baha'i Faith does not, but different people over time interpret their scripture and beliefs to give different views of the messiah. It is a very human thing.

This represents a snipit of the Hebrew view of Moses, God and the nature of their relationship to God at that time.




There are many peoples all over the world throughout history that make this claim, nothing new, your view is a limited one of only one chosen people in one culture and place in time. This view considers God rather selective of who the chosen people are leaving the rest of the world in the dark and not as you say 'chosen.' This a common egocentric world view of most ancient cultures.

The Baha'i view is universal in that God give all the people throughout history the opportunity to choose.

Sometimes I think your viewing this in another way. Prophecy is not limited to the chosen people but God did select them to receive His laws at Sinai. As prophecy was given, through Avraham, God revealed that the Israelites would suffer 400-year exile, oppression, slavery and then redemption (Exodus) all of which was formulated in the Bris Bein Ha-Besarim (Covenant Between the Parts).

See link (http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/lginzberg/bl-lginzberg-legends-1-5o.htm): Abraham took him these animals and divided them in the midst. Had he not done so, Israel would not have been able to resist the power of the four kingdoms. But the birds he divided not, to indicate that Israel will remain whole. And the birds of prey came down upon the carcasses, and Abraham drove them away. Thus was announced the advent of the Messiah, who will cut the heathen in pieces, but Abraham bade Messiah wait until the time appointed unto him. And as the Messianic time was made known unto Abraham, so also the time of the resurrection of the dead. When he laid the halves of the pieces over against each other, the animals became alive again, as the bird flew over them.

This Abrahamic Covenant lead us all toward the Messiah and to the redemption, without this agreement the fulfillment of God promise would have never taken place. Again, and I think, you view prophecy and the oneness of God relationship with the Jewish people in order to fulfill Messianic prophecy-differently. I think, that perhaps, a race was chosen (maybe) to fulfill the redemption for all. I don't think that being egocentric

[mitzi]

**I wanted to make some corrections to this post and make some add-on's**


You’re correct, God will communicate to whomever “He” chooses-and does not carry any cultural burdens or limitations. God created (as Genesis explains) or has given all human beings a “soul”, the soul being of intellect/knowledge and also being the image of God. To repeat -the soul (and again as Genesis states: “He breathed into his nostrils the soul of life, and man became a living soul.) Thus the soul of any human being has the knowledge of God and the intellect to discern between good and evil, and also the soul was given a free will to choose between the two. (Genesis 1:26) –Let us make a man in our own image, after our likeness”-underlining “LIKENESS”. In a sense, the soul (which carries the essence of God) must collaborate, on constant bases, (mind and soul) within our own selves-communicating through prayer to God; communication through the process of faith/and belief thus moving toward a spiritual progression of the human soul. God nourishes the soul, Psalms 103:1-4 and Psalms 143:8 and so we reach toward God and ask “Cause me to know the way wherein I should walk, For unto thee have I lifted my soul” (so could it be said that we can all prophesize, but at various degree-or that we have limitations? That is according to the soul’s state?) -if so, discussing prophet (non Jewish or Jewish) God chooses whomever “He” wills, See Job:

Where then does wisdom come from?
Where does understanding dwell?
It is hidden from the eyes of every living thing ...
God understands the way to it
and he alone knows where it dwells. (Job 28:20-23)

Or even in the passage (1 Cor 2:7) So where does wisdom dwell? What's the hiding-place that only God knows? What is "God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began"?
Or even in this passage: Proverbs 1:1
The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
4 To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:


So are the soul and the mind two separate entities? Does the soul (in a mystical sense) clarifies or makes clear on what it hears? We know that the body/mind can become ill or can be healed-through the soul? It can make prophets out of some (directive communication with God-by being a messenger from God-through direct communication from dreams/visions.) or it (the soul)can be made evil (by our own choosing-or through our choices in life) and how the soul (spirit) rebels against God. If that be the case then God does not have (or does not carry) any restrictions on prophets (non Jewish or Jewish)-He can and does communicate to everyone (via the soul) but only if one chooses to hear and listen to His voice (Hebrews 3:7-19
"Wherefore, as the Holy Spirit saith, today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts...)-and is open to unite with God.

To Summarize: If Avraham and Moses (both prophet as well as Jewish Prophet) are both recognized within the religious world as prophets along with Jeremiah and Ezekiel-then we can measure the degree as to “what” the person/soul, the mind and soul would have to be “in” and how the soul struggles with the mind/body (not only as human beings) but also how the prophets suffered as they had unified themselves to God for their support. Prophecy, as you say, doesn’t necessary have to be restricted to the Jewish race-although the term “chosen” or the saying “Chosen” had been give to the Jewish people by other people/nations. The prophet prior to or after Moses had delivered messages specifically about their culture (yes) and how they would reach (Abraham) the promise land. The degree of the prophets who came after Moses gave warnings to their own people of Israel if they chose to distant themselves away from God. These prophets chose to deliver the message to their own people but if (again) view through these prophets toward our own degree faith-through them- we (ourselves) should interpret our own relationship with God.

[shunyadragon]

Sometimes I think your viewing this in another way. Prophecy is not limited to the chosen people but God did select them to receive His laws at Sinai. As prophecy was given, through Avraham, God revealed that the Israelites would suffer 400-year exile, oppression, slavery and then redemption (Exodus) all of which was formulated in the Bris Bein Ha-Besarim (Covenant Between the Parts).

See link (http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/lginzberg/bl-lginzberg-legends-1-5o.htm): Abraham took him these animals and divided them in the midst. Had he not done so, Israel would not have been able to resist the power of the four kingdoms. But the birds he divided not, to indicate that Israel will remain whole. And the birds of prey came down upon the carcasses, and Abraham drove them away. Thus was announced the advent of the Messiah, who will cut the heathen in pieces, but Abraham bade Messiah wait until the time appointed unto him. And as the Messianic time was made known unto Abraham, so also the time of the resurrection of the dead. When he laid the halves of the pieces over against each other, the animals became alive again, as the bird flew over them.

This Abrahamic Covenant lead us all toward the Messiah and to the redemption, without this agreement the fulfillment of God promise would have never taken place. Again, and I think, you view prophecy and the oneness of God relationship with the Jewish people in order to fulfill Messianic prophecy-differently. I think, that perhaps, a race was chosen (maybe) to fulfill the redemption for all. I don't think that being egocentric

Prophecy may not be exclusive to the chosen people but the prophecy fulfilled in the manner you describe is limited to the chosen people from your ancient frame of reference

Your giving your interpretation of scripture from a limited perspective without consideration of the universal. This is the distinct problem from any ancient world view.

The problem still remains, this historically involves a limited number of people. There is no consideration of ALL the people and cultures of the world the Judeo Christian scriptures do not consider those outside their cultural framework to be include in any plan of redemption, therefore there is no ALL of the people of the earth over all times included here by any means. The same is pretty much true of any ancient world view.

[shunyadragon]

**I wanted to make some corrections to this post and make some add-on's**


You’re correct, God will communicate to whomever “He” chooses-and does not carry any cultural burdens or limitations. God created (as Genesis explains) or has given all human beings a “soul”, the soul being of intellect/knowledge and also being the image of God. To repeat -the soul (and again as Genesis states: “He breathed into his nostrils the soul of life, and man became a living soul.) Thus the soul of any human being has the knowledge of God and the intellect to discern between good and evil, and also the soul was given a free will to choose between the two. (Genesis 1:26) –Let us make a man in our own image, after our likeness”-underlining “LIKENESS”. In a sense, the soul (which carries the essence of God) must collaborate, on constant bases, (mind and soul) within our own selves-communicating through prayer to God; communication through the process of faith/and belief thus moving toward a spiritual progression of the human soul. God nourishes the soul, Psalms 103:1-4 and Psalms 143:8 and so we reach toward God and ask “Cause me to know the way wherein I should walk, For unto thee have I lifted my soul” (so could it be said that we can all prophesize, but at various degree-or that we have limitations? That is according to the soul’s state?) -if so, discussing prophet (non Jewish or Jewish) God chooses whomever “He” wills, See Job:

Where then does wisdom come from?
Where does understanding dwell?
It is hidden from the eyes of every living thing ...
God understands the way to it
and he alone knows where it dwells. (Job 28:20-23)

Or even in the passage (1 Cor 2:7) So where does wisdom dwell? What's the hiding-place that only God knows? What is "God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began"?
Or even in this passage: Proverbs 1:1
The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
4 To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:


So are the soul and the mind two separate entities? Does the soul (in a mystical sense) clarifies or makes clear on what it hears? We know that the body/mind can become ill or can be healed-through the soul? It can make prophets out of some (directive communication with God-by being a messenger from God-through direct communication from dreams/visions.) or it (the soul)can be made evil (by our own choosing-or through our choices in life) and how the soul (spirit) rebels against God. If that be the case then God does not have (or does not carry) any restrictions on prophets (non Jewish or Jewish)-He can and does communicate to everyone (via the soul) but only if one chooses to hear and listen to His voice (Hebrews 3:7-19
"Wherefore, as the Holy Spirit saith, today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts...)-and is open to unite with God.

To Summarize: If Avraham and Moses (both prophet as well as Jewish Prophet) are both recognized within the religious world as prophets along with Jeremiah and Ezekiel-then we can measure the degree as to “what” the person/soul, the mind and soul would have to be “in” and how the soul struggles with the mind/body (not only as human beings) but also how the prophets suffered as they had unified themselves to God for their support. Prophecy, as you say, doesn’t necessary have to be restricted to the Jewish race-although the term “chosen” or the saying “Chosen” had been give to the Jewish people by other people/nations. The prophet prior to or after Moses had delivered messages specifically about their culture (yes) and how they would reach (Abraham) the promise land. The degree of the prophets who came after Moses gave warnings to their own people of Israel if they chose to distant themselves away from God. These prophets chose to deliver the message to their own people but if (again) view through these prophets toward our own degree faith-through them- we (ourselves) should interpret our own relationship with God.

Again the religious world you refere to is limited and not universal in history and and the whole of humanity. Your view of prophecy, revelation and the relationship between the 'Source some call God(s) is distinctly circular and self-justifying of only one cultural perspective.

Your only consideration here is the Hebrew people and their relationship to the neighboring tribes who were their immediate competing relatives with similar cultures. accross the fertile cresent to the Nile Valley.

[mitzi]

Prophecy may not be exclusive to the chosen people but the prophecy fulfilled in the manner you describe is limited to the chosen people from your ancient frame of reference

Your giving your interpretation of scripture from a limited perspective without consideration of the universal. This is the distinct problem from any ancient world view.

The problem still remains, this historically involves a limited number of people. There is no consideration of ALL the people and cultures of the world the Judeo Christian scriptures do not consider those outside their cultural framework to be include in any plan of redemption, therefore there is no ALL of the people of the earth over all times included here by any means. The same is pretty much true of any ancient world view.

Yes. If the title thread discusses the Jewish Messiah then I would hope that it would be centralized to the topic through scriptural passages. From the time of Adam and Eve to that of Moses- centralization was on the belief that the Messiah would come to restore man to his original spiritual state with God and also that the covenant of pieces would be fulfilled to Abraham’s children (see Joshua 2:9-11)> which now the binding of that covenant is held to that promise of the redemption to both Jews and Gentiles who look forward to His coming albeit to the 2nd coming to the Gentiles. In Paul’s words, “that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.”

[mitzi]

Prophecy may not be exclusive to the chosen people but the prophecy fulfilled in the manner you describe is limited to the chosen people from your ancient frame of reference

Your giving your interpretation of scripture from a limited perspective without consideration of the universal. This is the distinct problem from any ancient world view.

The problem still remains, this historically involves a limited number of people. There is no consideration of ALL the people and cultures of the world the Judeo Christian scriptures do not consider those outside their cultural framework to be include in any plan of redemption, therefore there is no ALL of the people of the earth over all times included here by any means. The same is pretty much true of any ancient world view.

Your giving your interpretation of scripture from a limited perspective without consideration of the universal. This is the distinct problem from any ancient world view.

You’re looking at the whole instead of looking at the capabilities of a individual person. You see that a prophet needs to be universal and can only come out of a specific race or culture-I’m saying “not necessarily”.

Matt 3:9-10 " And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire."

[shunyadragon]

You’re looking at the whole instead of looking at the capabilities of a individual person. You see that a prophet needs to be universal and can only come out of a specific race or culture-I’m saying “not necessarily”.

This is news to me. You only quote Bible scripture and Judeo Christian interpretations of such. This is not considering anything outside this world view as a part of Revelation. I have no problems with the capability of individuals in all cultures throughout time. No, individual prophets in ancient revelations were not universal in their scope in the time and place they lived. Form the world perspective today their prophecies, teachings and messages should be considered in the context of ALL cultures and beliefs to understand the whole picture. This is something you fail to do.

Matt 3:9-10 " And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire."

Yes, some bear fruit and others do not, but first they have to recieve the message, and make the choice themselves. Again this is in the perspective of the culture and time only. Other religions have similar quotes for their time and place.

[barnasha]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA_HA!

No he is not! He is definitely not our messiah!

But he is a jewish messiah! Regardless of the fulfillment of certain, unmentioned prophecies.

He is a descendent of Judah, after all.

[mitzi]

shunyadragon;2644962]This is news to me. You only quote Bible scripture and Judeo Christian interpretations of such. This is not considering anything outside this world view as a part of Revelation. I have no problems with the capability of individuals in all cultures throughout time. No, individual prophets in ancient revelations were not universal in their scope in the time and place they lived. Form the world perspective today their prophecies, teachings and messages should be considered in the context of ALL cultures and beliefs to understand the whole picture. This is something you fail to do.


shunyadragon;2644962: This is news to me. You only quote Bible scripture and Judeo Christian interpretations of such.

In referring to the promise given to Avraham of the redemption (since that is the subject of your thread: Jesus Christ the Jewish Messiah) but what you and I haven’t seem to come to the agreement of is that fact that you tend to think that a prophet needs to be of universal statue and not individually based, I get that feeling when you write, “Again the religious world you referred to is limited and not universal in history and the whole of humanity”. Even though that in scripture we could conclude that thought in Gen. 9:13-15 to make our point on covenants that had been made between God and the universe.

Are you making an argument for or against the Jewish scripture or prophets to be used as a source to lead one to believe that Jesus is the Messiah or not? Your argument are saying one thing and yet pointing to another. You would have to use some point of reference out of a culture that has been for generations awaiting the Messiah-since Adam and Eve. Universalism (as a whole-entire planet) means that everyone would have to agree to these prophets leading all the back to Noah (even Adam and Eve) and unfortunately that hasn’t happen as of yet-although revelations does make that assertion later on, or so I hear. I would quote it but I would be quoting from a Jewish source, that is to mean John-the book of revelations, he is still considered Jewish? Or Isaiah 40.

>>Prophecy doesn’t have to be limited in a particular race, time (even though perhaps in one’s own generation-but if in a particular time period, I don’t know about that) or even if the prophet has to be universal (as both you and I did say that they don’t have be universal-a prophet usually spoke of things to come/or to convene a message of warnings/or what some would say "woe statements-or oracles" like Amos 5:18-27; Amos 6:1-14, like Jesus listed in Matthew) -but what is prophecy and what is the meaning of the messages that the prophet sends to a people/culture or to the earth (for all to hear)and also where do these message come from, from whom? and who (as a person) does God choose? These messages like all others come from the Almighty-but what you’re saying is that Judaism (or the chosen) is "not" the sole exclusive on prophecy-which there is no argument on that point.

See this message: LInk (http://www.jewfaq.org/prophet.htm)

The Talmud teaches that there were hundreds of thousands of prophets: twice as many as the number of people who left Egypt, which was 600,000. But most of the prophets conveyed messages that were intended solely for their own generation and were not reported in scripture. Scripture identifies only 55 prophets of Israel.

A prophet is not necessarily a man. Scripture records the stories of seven female prophets, listed below, and the Talmud reports that Sarah's prophetic ability was superior to Abraham's.
A prophet is not necessarily a Jew. The Talmud reports that there were prophets among the gentiles (most notably Balaam, whose story is told in Numbers 22), although they were not as elevated as the prophets of Israel (as the story of Balaam demonstrates). And some of the prophets, such as Jonah, were sent on missions to speak to the gentiles. According to some views, prophecy is not a gift that is arbitrarily conferred upon people; rather, it is the culmination of a person's spiritual and ethical development. When a person reaches a sufficient level of spiritual and ethical achievement, the Shechinah (Divine Spirit) comes to rest upon him or her. Likewise, the gift of prophecy leaves the person if that person lapses from his or her spiritual and ethical perfection.

[shunyadragon]

In referring to the promise given to Avraham of the redemption (since that is the subject of your thread: Jesus Christ the Jewish Messiah) but what you and I haven’t seem to come to the agreement of is that fact that you tend to think that a prophet needs to be of universal statue and not individually based, I get that feeling when you write, “Again the religious world you referred to is limited and not universal in history and the whole of humanity”. Even though that in scripture we could conclude that thought in Gen. 9:13-15 to make our point on covenants that had been made between God and the universe. [quote]

No, read my posts more closely. The individual prophet is not universal, but the message of the prophet should be in the context of the universal. In the context of the time and place of the prophet address the culture and time and place.

Yes, I agree that God made covenants with ALL of the universe, and not one culture and tribe on one place on the earth.

Are you making an argument for or against the Jewish scripture or prophets to be used as a source to lead one to believe that Jesus is the Messiah or not?

My case is not against the prophets, but for the context of the universal and not any one culture, tradition that claims to the 'chosen' people above the other.




>>Prophecy doesn’t have to be limited in a particular race, time (even though perhaps in one’s own generation-but if in a particular time period, I don’t know about that) or even if the prophet has to be universal (as both you and I did say that they don’t have be universal-a prophet usually spoke of things to come/or to convene a message of warnings/or what some would say "woe statements-or oracles" like Amos 5:18-27; Amos 6:1-14, like Jesus listed in Matthew) -but what is prophecy and what is the meaning of the messages that the prophet sends to a people/culture or to the earth (for all to hear)and also where do these message come from, from whom? and who (as a person) does God choose? These messages like all others come from the Almighty-but what you’re saying is that Judaism (or the chosen) is "not" the sole exclusive on prophecy-which there is no argument on that point.

See this message: LInk (http://www.jewfaq.org/prophet.htm)

The Talmud teaches that there were hundreds of thousands of prophets: twice as many as the number of people who left Egypt, which was 600,000. But most of the prophets conveyed messages that were intended solely for their own generation and were not reported in scripture. Scripture identifies only 55 prophets of Israel.

A prophet is not necessarily a man. Scripture records the stories of seven female prophets, listed below, and the Talmud reports that Sarah's prophetic ability was superior to Abraham's.
A prophet is not necessarily a Jew. The Talmud reports that there were prophets among the gentiles (most notably Balaam, whose story is told in Numbers 22), although they were not as elevated as the prophets of Israel (as the story of Balaam demonstrates). And some of the prophets, such as Jonah, were sent on missions to speak to the gentiles. According to some views, prophecy is not a gift that is arbitrarily conferred upon people; rather, it is the culmination of a person's spiritual and ethical development. When a person reaches a sufficient level of spiritual and ethical achievement, the Shechinah (Divine Spirit) comes to rest upon him or her. Likewise, the gift of prophecy leaves the person if that person lapses from his or her spiritual and ethical perfection.


The problem is that I consider revelation, and prophets to be revealed by ALL cultures and peoples of the world throughout time, and you believe that only one received this blessing to be 'chosen.'

[Salty]

But he is a jewish messiah! Regardless of the fulfillment of certain, unmentioned prophecies.

He is a descendent of Judah, after all.Takes just a bit more than being a descendant of Judah to qualify for being any Jewish messiah, much less the end-times messiah.

[Salty]

How do you know Elijah is going to return to finish fulfilling his duties if not for prophecies about it? :duh:The question of Elijah's identity via the fulfillment of those prophecies is not in question, like it is in Jss' case.

Anyway, your Elijah comparison is a red herring. Unlike what is said about Jss, no one says Elijah has fulfilled those prophecies, because he hasn't. No oxymoron when applied to him, only when applied to Jss, who fulfilled not a single messianic prophecy.

And close your mouth, son, the drooling makes you look like an idiot.

[Salty]

My view does consider that God can and does communicate in a manner that is beyond any 'cultural burdens or limitations.' Apparently you believe your God only communicated with one 'chosen' people in one time and place in human history, and the interpretation of the nature of God and the messiah is correct, and the only correct, from this ancient world view.



Of course you do, throughout the history of humanity there are hundreds of different variable religions, cultures and belief systems that believe there way is true and preserved intact. From the evidence it is difficult for me to accept any one as the correst true preserved communication from God. Which ever one is correct than leaves God a very selective arbitrary God of only one of these many claims of who is the correct chosen people. This is again a very fallible human view of how things workAnd your proof of a fallacy is what, that it fails your own personal, very fallible human view of how things work? By your own standards, you cannot trust your own judgment in the matter.

Your examples reflect a very human understanding and recording of scripture, and yes there are conflicts, but they are very human conflicts. Nonsense. They are logical contradictions. Strip out all cultural references and it's easy to see. One text says God is not something, another say He is. Regardless of what the "something" is, He cannot be both that "something" and not that "something".

For example, even within the OT or the Torah there are many internal, human sacrifice is recorded to have been preformed by Hebrews. Not one of which was ever accepted by God.

[mitzi]

shunyadragon;2645880 The problem is that I consider revelation, and prophets to be revealed by ALL cultures and peoples of the world throughout time, and you believe that only one received this blessing to be 'chosen.

Again, you assumed wrong. If what you’re telling me is correct; then when the Messiah (Jesus) came "all" the people from all cultures of the world opened their eyes to His teachings, had accepted His word and followed scripture (not only) the New Testament but the Old as well. In order to understand revelation about the Messiah one who have to read (the prophecy) that was listed in the New Testament which had made references to the Old (Tanakh) and that being from Jewish sources.
We (also) can assume that when the Messiah (Jesus) was born that the three kings of Orient were of Persian descent that had come from afar to bring gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh to a king. So where did these three “Wisemen” gather their information about when the Messiah would come and why did they come to bring gifts to a king who was not born in a palace but yet in a barn/or cave. The Persians had knowledge of the Messiah’s birth but didn’t the entire world know about these revelations of the Messiah Jesus? To remember the beginning of the story when Herod had been asked about the child: Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Magi)

“During the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him. When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him. When he had called together all the people's chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Christ was to be born. In Bethlehem in Judea, they replied, for this is what the prophet has written: 'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.' Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. He sent them to Bethlehem and said, Go and make a careful search for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him. After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshipped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh. And having been warned in a dream not to go back to Herod, they returned to their country by another route”

1) they came from the east
2) they were astrologers
3) they recognized Jesus as the king of the Jews (and left gifts)
4) God sent a warning dream to them, and they obeyed the warning

Again, coming in from your point of view, was the entire world aware of the prophecy of the Messiah? think Persian. Again, prophecy, in your “own” words, should be universal; then was it universal at the time of Jesus’ birth? And if you say that “all” culture “instead” of the chosen should have access to prophecy and be accepted-are you referring to the prophecy that is being generated toward the predictions of the Jewish Messiah (again read your own title to this thread-)

[John Goddard]

The problem is that I consider revelation, and prophets to be revealed by ALL cultures and peoples of the world throughout time, and you believe that only one received this blessing to be 'chosen.'

I think revelations and prophecies have been made by Gentile cultures throughout history, but just shadows and not entirely understood. Who can deny that Buddha's experience paralleled that of Jesus, or that the religion of Brahma is related to the religion of Abraham?

But the clear and coherent message about God comes from and centers around Jews. Someone has to be closer to it than anyone else, why not them?

[mitzi]

Salty;2646641Nonsense. They are logical contradictions. Strip out all cultural references and it's easy to see. One text says God is not something, another say He is. Regardless of what the "something" is, He cannot be both that "something" and not that "something".

According to Maimonides: A guide for today's perplexed by Kenneth Seeskin-
Maimonides on the Origin of the World-LINK (http://ndpr.nd.edu/review.cfm?id=5542)

and read, 3.1 The Existence and Uniqueness of God, LINK (http://books.google.com/books?id=PrF7lyX0OUUC&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq=Maimonides:+A+guide+for+today%27s+perplexed+by+Kenneth+Seeskin+on+essence+of+God&source=bl&ots=uY8yfQGiUO&sig=We7lPLNXpKae-gULX-CrbNWSMfA&hl=en&ei=OvjtSfOvApS-M73GxOgP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5#PPA83,M1)

From the book (According to Maimonides: A guide for today's perplexed by Kenneth Seeskin): Describing God, 1. Must the Torah be Interpreted Literally?

to read: "According to Maimonides, to say that God is one is to say that He is a perfect unity, that He does not admit any form of and a back, a body and a soul, a beginning an and end, a formal or material component. The God of Judaism admits of no duality whatever.

....there is no oneness at all except in believing that there is one simple essence in which there is no complexity or multiplicity or notions, but one notion only; so that from whatever angle you regard it and from whatever point of view you consider it, you will find that it is one, not divided in any and by any cause into two notions...."

as further reading.."At Guide 3.29, Maimonides credits Abraham with the discovery that God is neither a body nor a force residing in a body, that God is always at a distance from material things."

Reading this made me think of the Acts of the Apostles "47 But Solomon built a house for him.
48 Yet the Most High does not dwell in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says:
49 'The heavens are my throne, the earth is my footstool. What kind of house can you build for me? says the Lord, or what is to be my resting place? (Acts 7:47-49)

God is everywhere and in every living thing...so what house could contain Him?

[shunyadragon]

I think revelations and prophecies have been made by Gentile cultures throughout history, but just shadows and not entirely understood. Who can deny that Buddha's experience paralleled that of Jesus, or that the religion of Brahma is related to the religion of Abraham?

You have touched on the problem of picking one chosen over another. You may propose or think that revelations or prophesies occur elsewhere, but your spiritual beliefs, references to scripture and the bottom line belief of any form of Judaism including scripture says no. This is a basic problem of ALL ancient religions in one way or another including the more peaceful and tolerant Buddhism and Daoism.

But the clear and coherent message about God comes from and centers around Jews. Someone has to be closer to it than anyone else, why not them?

Other than the claim of Jewish scripture, why? Every culture claims to be closer, or more correctly the only one. As the one you selected Buddhism, and religions like Daoism if anything they have been more enlightened, spiritual and peaceful than our western religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

I see no reason Judaism, Christianity or Islam should or would be the 'chosen' over other religions. Each religion considers itself the most coherent and true, and thus the chosen people.

In the Hebrew Law, Judaism would not consider one religion closer than another, it would likely consider Christianity a Heresy, and Islam a decendent of an old enemy the Canaanites.

[tomsawyer25]

Partial fulfillment? Partial fulfillment? Partial fulfillment? Can you say, "oxymoron"? I knew that you could.

No, it's not an oxymoron at all. One can hardly accept prophesy without knowing that there are prophesies to be fulfilled over time. Besides, to completely reject this idea, you should show me from scripture that Messiah is to fully fulfill all of them within his own lifetime. If you can not show me that, then you should accept the idea which I have brought up.

Scripture speaks of a role of Messiah as going through suffering and death. Scripture also speaks of the kingly rule as well as many other details. Do you really believe that they all would occur completely in one lifetime? Again, if not, you should accept what I have proposed.

You are also simultaniously ignoring all of the fulfilled prophesy. How is it possible to care about the truth of the Bible and ignore that? Can you tell me who else came at the time prophesied, went through the sufferings prophesied, and became a light to the nations of the world, bringing billions to God? If you have another good candidate, please speak up now. If not, you should consider what I have proposed.

Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.

Regards,

Tom

[John Goddard]

You may propose or think that revelations or prophesies occur elsewhere, but your spiritual beliefs, references to scripture and the bottom line belief of any form of Judaism including scripture says no.

I think the major ones mentioned like Dharmic varieties got revelations but some were initially misunderstood or garbled over time.


Other than the claim of Jewish scripture, why? Every culture claims to be closer, or more correctly the only one. As the one you selected Buddhism, and religions like Daoism if anything they have been more enlightened, spiritual and peaceful than our western religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

I see no reason Judaism, Christianity or Islam should or would be the 'chosen' over other religions. Each religion considers itself the most coherent and true, and thus the chosen people.

In the ultimate reality of things, some are going to end up closer to the truth than others. You may see Buddhism and Daoism being more peaceful as a sign of the truth.

While I may see Abrahamic religions closer to the truth due to the overall message their texts give about the world, from Creation to Afterlife, yet still containing moral teachings of those other religions too like love one another, don't desire material things or you'll suffer, etc.


In the Hebrew Law, Judaism would not consider one religion closer than another, it would likely consider Christianity a Heresy, and Islam a decendent of an old enemy the Canaanites.

I'm just looking at the big picture in relation to the God of Abraham, not doctrinal differences between those religions or even sects within them like Catholicism vs. Protestantism, etc.

[Gavriel]

In reality is blindly absurd to follow the Law of the Torah..

Stopped reading after this.

[shunyadragon]

Stopped reading after this.

Mind closed before this. Do you follow the Law of the Torah literally in all cases????

[John Goddard]

Mind closed before this. Do you follow the Law of the Torah literally in all cases????

Maybe you meant, "In reality is "" absurd to blindly follow the Law of the Torah" instead of, "In reality is blindly absurd to follow the Law of the Torah."

If so, that I can agree with. For example a blind literal interpretation of Written Torah might say just to stone a woman for adultery no matter what.

But a common sense interpretation would say that punishing others for sins, when you may have escaped punishment for your own sins for whatever reason, is hypocritical.

That's the common sense, Oral Torah message of NT John 8, superior to a literal black and white interpretation of Written Torah. It effectively places punishment for sins into the hands of those who have been sinless, which are probably few.

[shunyadragon]

Maybe you meant, "In reality is "" absurd to blindly follow the Law of the Torah" instead of, "In reality is blindly absurd to follow the Law of the Torah."

If so, that I can agree with. For example a blind literal interpretation of Written Torah might say just to stone a woman for adultery no matter what.

But a common sense interpretation would say that punishing others for sins, when you may have escaped punishment for your own sins for whatever reason, is hypocritical.

That's the common sense, Oral Torah message of NT John 8, superior to a literal black and white interpretation of Written Torah. It effectively places punishment for sins into the hands of those who have been sinless, which are probably few.

The laws of the Torah are not based on a common sense human interpretation that would say punishing others for sins when you may escape punishment for your sins for whatever reason. This also would be a violation of the Laws of th Torah.

[John Goddard]

The laws of the Torah are not based on a common sense human interpretation that would say punishing others for sins when you may escape punishment for your sins for whatever reason. This also would be a violation of the Laws of th Torah.

Oral Torah is the proper interpretation of Written Torah, saying that you would be a hypocrite to punish someone for sin, but not willing to be punished for the same sin. Which actually is addressed indirectly in another part of Written Torah, saying that you can't be biased and partial to yourself in terms of judgment, you need to judge everyone equally.

Leviticus 19:34-35 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.

So in relation to what we're talking about, you also can't tilt the scale in your favor when it comes to submitting yourself for punishment for your own sins. Therefore if you would have someone stoned for adultery, but you are guilty of any sins worthy of stoning yourself, then you first need to submit yourself for stoning before you can stone anyone else so you aren't a hypocrite, which pretty much creates a Catch-22 for you and voids your ability to stone anyone.

And on and on until a person innocent of capital offenses was found who could stone everyone else down the line. In Christianity, that ends with Jesus, the only one without sin who is qualified to judge anyone else.

[Salty]

No, it's not an oxymoron at all. One can hardly accept prophesy without knowing that there are prophesies to be fulfilled over time.For prophecies where it will take some time, yes, I understand your point. For example, I imagine it will take some time to get all of the Jews back living in Israel. But the identity of the end-times messiah is determined by the fulfillment of a set of prophecies. Partially fulfilling them doesn't qualify.

The only true messianic prophecy that Christianity claims was fulfilled by Jss was being born in Bethlehem. But that's only part of the actual prophecy in Micah, the part which was "fulfilled" by thousands of Jewish males, so that really doesn't help confirm his identity.

Besides, to completely reject this idea, you should show me from scripture that Messiah is to fully fulfill all of them within his own lifetime. If you can not show me that, then you should accept the idea which I have brought up.Your requirement is as silly as me requiring you to show me from scripture--and please pardon the crassness of the analogy--that Jss had a bladder that needed emptying on occasion. If he was a man, then there is no need for such a verse, because we all know that all men must. Judaism expects messiah to be a man, there's no reason to expect otherwise, nor to expect a second life (other than in the World to Come), therefore it's silly to require an explicit verse saying that he must fulfill all the prophecies during his lifetime.

Scripture speaks of a role of Messiah as going through suffering and death. Only a misinterpretation of Isaiah does so.

Scripture also speaks of the kingly rule as well as many other details. Do you really believe that they all would occur completely in one lifetime? Again, if not, you should accept what I have proposed.I do believe he will do so, because there are no verses that explicitly say he will come twice. To apply your own restrictions, show me from scripture that he will.

You are also simultaniously ignoring all of the fulfilled prophesy. There's nothing to ignore. He didn't fulfill a single messianic prophecy. Your list of 300+ "prophecies" are mostly not about the messiah, or aren't prophecies at all. And at least one was fabricated from whole cloth.

Besides, how can you ignore the thousands of Jewish men born in Bethlehem who also fulfilled that one partial prophecy?

Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. And I'm the Queen of England.

[John Goddard]

There's nothing to ignore. He didn't fulfill a single messianic prophecy.

Jesus is the light of Gentiles, given that he is the Jewish Messiah for most Gentiles if they accept one at all, and that most of the world has read the Tanach to know about the God of Israel through the Christian Bible.

Isaiah 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

[melvyn84]

Certainly Christ 's Earthly lineage was of the tribe of Judah to fulfill Genesis 49 v 10.
However , you detract from the overwhelming evidence of the Deity of Christ - Jesus Christ - the Anointed Saviour .
Just think ,John who rested his head on the bosom of Jesus at the Last Supper .was so smitten and overcome by the glorified Christ of Revelation 1 v 17 he fell down as dead . The awful and penetrating holiness of Jesus was all consuming .No flesh could or can abide His Presence without the thorough cleansing of the Blood of Calvary .
I cannot put Christ in any human category - this would be demeaning to Him and my loss .And yes I believe in the triune nature of God. Melvyn84

[John Goddard]

I cannot put Christ in any human category - this would be demeaning to Him and my loss.

Being Adoptionist, on the flip side I think Jesus born 100% human and not a deity yet remaining sinless is even more of a victory.

[Salty]

Jesus is the light of Gentiles, given that he is the Jewish Messiah for most Gentiles if they accept one at all, and that most of the world has read the Tanach to know about the God of Israel through the Christian Bible.

Isaiah 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;Two strikes: 1 - a non sequitur to my assertion that Jss didn't fulfill a single prophecy; and 2 - a deliberate disregard for the whole of Isaiah, in which the servant is clearly and explicitly identified as Israel.

[John Goddard]

Two strikes: 1 - a non sequitur to my assertion that Jss didn't fulfill a single prophecy; and 2 - a deliberate disregard for the whole of Isaiah, in which the servant is clearly and explicitly identified as Israel.

Where does Messiah come from, China?

I don't exclude other righteous Jews suffering for wicked Jews, but Messiah leads the righteous of Israel.

Unless your Messiah isn't righteous?

[Salty]

Where does Messiah come from, China?

I don't exclude other righteous Jews suffering for wicked Jews, but Messiah leads the righteous of Israel.

Unless your Messiah isn't righteous?I'm sorry, I don't mean to be obtuse, but I don't understand any of your response.

[John Goddard]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be obtuse, but I don't understand any of your response.

It means we expect Messiah to be a righteous of Israel, so there is no reason to exclude him as a Suffering Servant too.

So it doesn't have to be either/or, Isaiah 53 can be about Messiah and all the rest of righteous Israel. But he leads them and is the epitome of the Suffering Servant, and fulfills that prophecy entirely.

[Gavriel]

Oral Torah is the proper interpretation of Written Torah,

Before I comment, could you clarify exactly what the "oral torah" is that you are taking about here?

[Gavriel]

Being Adoptionist, on the flip side I think Jesus born 100% human and not a deity yet remaining sinless is even more of a victory.

That would be impossible...

“The time will come when your people will sin against you (for there is no one who is sinless!) and you will be angry with them and deliver them over to their enemies, who will take them as prisoners to their own land, whether far away or close by. 1 Kings 8:46

“The time will come when your people will sin against you (for there is no one who is sinless!) and you will be angry at them and deliver them over to their enemies, who will take them as prisoners to their land, whether far away or close by. 2 Chronicles 6:36

For there is not one truly righteous person on the earth who continually does good and never sins.
Ecclesiastes 7:20

[John Goddard]

Before I comment, could you clarify exactly what the "oral torah" is that you are taking about here?

It's the interpretation of God's Laws under inspiration from God.

That would be impossible...

At that time it was, since Messiah was not a man yet. Isaiah 11 paints a good picture of a righteous Messiah.

But just to expand on my Adoptionist position, it is that Jesus is the child who died for David's sin 2 Samuel 12:13-14, resurrected into the womb of Mary to claim the promise Solomon could not fulfill because he turned his heart to other gods. Therefore Jesus is Solomon's older brother.

It is also my position that, as supported by biblical text, the righteous do not sin anymore having come from heaven, due to condition of Jeremiah 31:33. Thus, Jesus retained the innocence of a child when he was resurrected into the womb of Mary and lived out the rest of his life in the same state of sinlessness.

Matthew 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Isaiah 11:6 ...and a little child shall lead them.

-----------------

But if you think it is impossible, what kinds of sins do you think your Jewish Messiah is going to commit?

And if you believe Elijah never died and is to return from Heaven, along the lines of my personal beliefs, do you believe Elijah is going to sin after he returns to the Earth?

[Gavriel]

It's the interpretation of God's Laws under inspiration from God.

This sounds completely arbitray and subjective.

At that time it was, since Messiah was not a man yet. Isaiah 11 paints a good picture of a righteous Messiah.

But just to expand on my Adoptionist position, it is that Jesus is the child who died for David's sin 2 Samuel 12:13-14, resurrected into the womb of Mary to claim the promise Solomon could not fulfill because he turned his heart to other gods. Therefore Jesus is Solomon's older brother.

It is also my position that, as supported by biblical text, the righteous do not sin anymore having come from heaven, due to condition of Jeremiah 31:33. Thus, Jesus retained the innocence of a child when he was resurrected into the womb of Mary and lived out the rest of his life in the same state of sinlessness.

Matthew 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Isaiah 11:6 ...and a little child shall lead them.

-----------------

But if you think it is impossible, what kinds of sins do you think your Jewish Messiah is going to commit?

And if you believe Elijah never died and is to return from Heaven, along the lines of my personal beliefs, do you believe Elijah is going to sin after he returns to the Earth?

You said: I think Jesus born 100% human and not a deity yet remaining sinless

As I pointed out with three seperate passages if he was 100% human, he sinned, period. To say he didn't sin is to say he wasn't man, or those three passages are lying. Which is it?

[John Goddard]

This sounds completely arbitray and subjective.

Solomon's handling of child-swapping was one such application of Oral Torah.

1 Kings 3:28 And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment.

Oral Torah is simply the best way to apply Written Torah depending on the circumstance.


You said: I think Jesus born 100% human and not a deity yet remaining sinless

As I pointed out with three seperate passages if he was 100% human, he sinned, period. To say he didn't sin is to say he wasn't man, or those three passages are lying. Which is it?

Your verses say FOR THERE IS NO ONE WHO IS SINLESS. Do you have any verses that say FOR THERE WILL NEVER BE ANYONE WHO IS SINLESS? And per my own beliefs about the nature of Jesus I'll ask, do you believe children sin? Or resurrected righteous people, do they sin?

How about my last two questions, in what ways do you think your Jewish Messiah might sin? Will he lie, lust, steal, murder? And do you think Elijah will sin when he returns from Heaven?

You do think your Messiah and Elijah are just men, not gods, right?

[Gavriel]

Solomon's handling of child-swapping was one such application of Oral Torah.

1 Kings 3:28 And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment.

Oral Torah is simply the best way to apply Written Torah depending on the circumstance.

I repeat: This sounds completely arbitray and subjective.

Your verses say FOR THERE IS NO ONE WHO IS SINLESS. Do you have any verses that say FOR THERE WILL NEVER BE ANYONE WHO IS SINLESS?

Stating: for there is no one who is sinless is all inclusive. This isn't rocket science, unequivically no one is sinless, period.

And per my own beliefs about the nature of Jesus I'll ask, do you believe children sin?

I'm not going to make general statments about children and sin.

Or resurrected righteous people, do they sin?

Are you talking about Daniel procephy here?

How about my last two questions, in what ways do you think your Jewish Messiah might sin?

Annointed persons (priests, kings) can sin just like the rest of us.

Will he lie, lust, steal, murder?

I have no idea how they might sin.

And do you think Elijah will sin when he returns from Heaven?

No idea.

You do think your Messiah and Elijah are just men, not gods, right?

Elijah and annointed ones are men, correct.

[John Goddard]

I repeat: This sounds completely arbitray and subjective.

How so when the idea of God-inspired leaders interpreting and applying Torah on a case-by-case basis is established in the Tanach, as I just showed.


Stating: for there is no one who is sinless is all inclusive. This isn't rocket science, unequivically no one is sinless, period.

At the time it was written it may have been true, but you've not shown anything saying no one will ever be sinless, ever.


I'm not going to make general statments about children and sin.

You must have some opinion. Do you think infants can ever be sinful? I don't.


Are you talking about Daniel procephy here?

No, I'm talking about righteous people resurrected from death. Do you think they can ever sin again after resurrection?


I have no idea how they might sin.

If your Messiah ever sins by lying how do you know he will be the real Messiah? Maybe he will be lying about that too.

I know that the Suffering Servant in Isaiah 53 doesn't lie, for one thing.

[shunyadragon]

Oral Torah is the proper interpretation of Written Torah, saying that you would be a hypocrite to punish someone for sin, but not willing to be punished for the same sin. Which actually is addressed indirectly in another part of Written Torah, saying that you can't be biased and partial to yourself in terms of judgment, you need to judge everyone equally.

Leviticus 19:34-35 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.

So in relation to what we're talking about, you also can't tilt the scale in your favor when it comes to submitting yourself for punishment for your own sins. Therefore if you would have someone stoned for adultery, but you are guilty of any sins worthy of stoning yourself, then you first need to submit yourself for stoning before you can stone anyone else so you aren't a hypocrite, which pretty much creates a Catch-22 for you and voids your ability to stone anyone.

And on and on until a person innocent of capital offenses was found who could stone everyone else down the line. In Christianity, that ends with Jesus, the only one without sin who is qualified to judge anyone else.

I disagree with your extreme interpretation, with this interpretation no one could judge anyone in any legal system or under any set of rules and laws. It just does not work.

Yes, all must submit themselves equally to the law, but the above is rediculously unrealistic.

[John Goddard]

I disagree with your extreme interpretation, with this interpretation no one could judge anyone in any legal system or under any set of rules and laws. It just does not work.

Yes, all must submit themselves equally to the law, but the above is rediculously unrealistic.

Of course it is, if you are only looking for secular solutions.

The Christian solution to this Catch-22 of lacking ability to administer capital punishment, except as hypocrites ourselves in danger of greater hellfire, is Jesus as our Judge.

All you are saying to me is, "I'm not qualified to cast the first stone, but I have no choice so I'm doing it anyway."

That's why I recommend to Christians that they stay out of politics, military, law enforcement, and judicial functions of society -- THE WORLD -- since they may eventually run afoul of what Jesus taught.

[melvyn84]

Humanly descended from the tribe of Judah to fulfill Genesis 49v10 , Christ transcended the Earthly world of mortal man - before Abraham was I AM . The very holy name of God Himself who revealed Himself to Moses was affirmatively claimed by the Messiah - the Anointed One. Why His very name means anointed saviour . His words full of grace and truth - encouraging, succouring and saving fallen mankind . What a Christ have I !

[tomsawyer25]

For prophecies where it will take some time, yes, I understand your point. For example, I imagine it will take some time to get all of the Jews back living in Israel. But the identity of the end-times messiah is determined by the fulfillment of a set of prophecies. Partially fulfilling them doesn't qualify.

The only true messianic prophecy that Christianity claims was fulfilled by Jss was being born in Bethlehem. But that's only part of the actual prophecy in Micah, the part which was "fulfilled" by thousands of Jewish males, so that really doesn't help confirm his identity.

Your requirement is as silly as me requiring you to show me from scripture--and please pardon the crassness of the analogy--that Jss had a bladder that needed emptying on occasion. If he was a man, then there is no need for such a verse, because we all know that all men must. Judaism expects messiah to be a man, there's no reason to expect otherwise, nor to expect a second life (other than in the World to Come), therefore it's silly to require an explicit verse saying that he must fulfill all the prophecies during his lifetime.

Only a misinterpretation of Isaiah does so.

I do believe he will do so, because there are no verses that explicitly say he will come twice. To apply your own restrictions, show me from scripture that he will.

There's nothing to ignore. He didn't fulfill a single messianic prophecy. Your list of 300+ "prophecies" are mostly not about the messiah, or aren't prophecies at all. And at least one was fabricated from whole cloth.

Besides, how can you ignore the thousands of Jewish men born in Bethlehem who also fulfilled that one partial prophecy?

And I'm the Queen of England.



You claim that "partially fulfilling them doesn't qualify". Why not? According to whom? If some prophesies clearly require a process, then nobody, according to ths rule, could ever qualify while they are in that process. For this reason, they certainly count.

Being born in Bethlehem of Judea was certainly one prophey Jesus fulfilled. But to claim that many others fulfilled this also is to utterly ignore all of the other prophesies. None of them is taken alone. Thus I can not see that as a legitimate cause for doubt.

Your next comment is beyond silly, and doesn't tell us much. It speaks poorly for you as well. Who else came at the time prophesied by Daniel, fulfilled all these prophesies and brought the light to the nations? If no one did, then is Daniel a false prophet?

Plenty of Jewish sages, as well as Jews living in Second Temple times, had the same interpretation of Isaiah as I do. It has been understood by many Jews over thousands of years,that Messiah is a real person and that Messiah was to be pierced and to die. Again, what other contender is there?

The same observation goes regarding your blanket doubt about all Messianic prophesies. Many of the very same ones have been accepted for thousands of years as messianic by Jews and Christians alike. That is documented fact. Nobody just came along and reinterpreted the entirety of scripture. It goes way back in Jewish tradition. Jesus fulfilled them.

To ask where multiple comings are to be found in the text is a perfectly fair question. The fact that the text includes both a description of Messiah being cut off as well as a description of Messiah ruling over the eternal kingdom points to two comings long before the Gospels were ever written. Jewish tradition saw this and recognized multiple comings as well. The first Messiah prepared the way for the kingdom.

Psalm 16:10 also implies a second coming by implying both death and resurrection.

So, once again, who else came at the time prophesied by Daniel, was born in Bethlehem Ephrathah, ministered in Galilee, suffered, was betrayed, was pierced, was received by the Gentiles... Name one other person.

You're the Queen of England? I thought you were the Duke of Earl.

[shunyadragon]

Humanly descended from the tribe of Judah to fulfill Genesis 49v10 , Christ transcended the Earthly world of mortal man - before Abraham was I AM . The very holy name of God Himself who revealed Himself to Moses was affirmatively claimed by the Messiah - the Anointed One. Why His very name means anointed saviour . His words full of grace and truth - encouraging, succouring and saving fallen mankind . What a Christ have I !

Yes, this is apparently what you believe, but here it is simply an assertion of your belief nothing more.

[shunyadragon]

Of course it is, if you are only looking for secular solutions.

No, I am referring to any solution secular or theist.

The Christian solution to this Catch-22 of lacking ability to administer capital punishment, except as hypocrites ourselves in danger of greater hellfire, is Jesus as our Judge.

This does not work in the real world, we still have capitol punishment in most of the Christian world since the first century, secular and theist.

All you are saying to me is, "I'm not qualified to cast the first stone, but I have no choice so I'm doing it anyway."

No, the lesson was hypocrisy.

That's why I recommend to Christians that they stay out of politics, military, law enforcement, and judicial functions of society -- THE WORLD -- since they may eventually run afoul of what Jesus taught.


Your recommendation does not go very far in the real world and history.

[John Goddard]

No, I am referring to any solution secular or theist. This does not work in the real world, we still have capitol punishment in most of the Christian world since the first century, secular and theist.

UK hasn't had the death penalty for a long time, it works.

No, the lesson was hypocrisy.

Correct.

Your recommendation does not go very far in the real world and history.

I've never even voted in my life, much less been a cop, soldier, or judge. That works for me too.

[shunyadragon]

UK hasn't had the death penalty for a long time, it works.

Yes, Iagree, but it has nothing to do with the argument.

Correct.

Then you agree that it has nothing to do with the application of Judaic law including capital punishment.

I've never even voted in my life, much less been a cop, soldier, or judge. That works for me too.

That is unfortunate. I self imposed sheltered life does not lead to much reality, nor responsibility if you do not vote.

[learning]

I think if one is called to politics, one can do good in it. Look at the minister Tommy Douglas in Canada. No, he wasn't a socialist, he just felt everyone should have hospital paid for in Canada, as well as Dr.s. He had a kind Dr. in Winnipeg do surgery on his leg when he was a child, and he would have been a cripple if that Dr. had not done that for free. That gratefulness led him to push for our Medical system that though it has its faults, we are very proud of. We voted him the most admired Canadian a few years ago on an internet thing on CBC.

Also, what about William Wilberforce, who stopped slavery through years of fighting it in the British Courts. He worked at first making the selling of slaves illegal, and then owning them illegal, throughout the whole of the British Common Wealth. You can be sure, that on the judgement day, there will be many who stand and welcome him for the freedom that he gave them
.
To think it has only been a hundred and some years, that most of the world has agreed that slavery is wrong.

[John Goddard]

Yes, Iagree, but it has nothing to do with the argument.

Yes it does.

shunyadragon: "No, I am referring to any solution secular or theist. This does not work in the real world, we still have capitol punishment in most of the Christian world since the first century, secular and theist. "

So if UK can abolish it, why can't everyone? Why wouldn't it work?


Then you agree that it has nothing to do with the application of Judaic law including capital punishment.

It does, since if you execute someone for adultery, but are secretly guilty of adultery or other capital crime yourself, then you are a hypocrite.

That is unfortunate. I self imposed sheltered life does not lead to much reality, nor responsibility if you do not vote.

I can know what the issues are without voting. The Bible says it's my responsibility to put faith in God's Kingdom, not Caesar's. I leave that to the heathen to goof around with.

[shunyadragon]

Yes it does.

shunyadragon: "No, I am referring to any solution secular or theist. This does not work in the real world, we still have capitol punishment in most of the Christian world since the first century, secular and theist. "

So if UK can abolish it, why can't everyone? Why wouldn't it work?

I believe it would, but that still has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand.

It does, since if you execute someone for adultery, but are secretly guilty of adultery or other capital crime yourself, then you are a hypocrite.

This totally fails to address the problem of what role hypocrisy has in Jewish Law, and secular law. Christ's teachings are valid concerning hypocrisy, but this was due to the overt corruption of the preisthood of the time. The problem of hypocrisy does not mean do not enforce the law.

I can know what the issues are without voting. The Bible says it's my responsibility to put faith in God's Kingdom, not Caesar's. I leave that to the heathen to goof around with.

This is unfortunate. Though you comment and give opinion's on secular issues above. I consider this view irresponsible and hypocritical.

[John Goddard]

I believe it would, but that still has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Yes it does: we should not stone/hang/poison/etc. people to death if it makes us hypocrites. And we don't need to either, by example of the UK. Which you initially said wouldn't work in the real world:

shunyadragon: "I disagree with your extreme interpretation, with this interpretation no one could judge anyone in any legal system or under any set of rules and laws. It just does not work."

Now you are flip-flopping:

Goddard: "So if UK can abolish it, why can't everyone? Why wouldn't it work?"

shunyadragon: "I believe it would..."

Make up your mind.

This totally fails to address the problem of what role hypocrisy has in Jewish Law, and secular law. Christ's teachings are valid concerning hypocrisy, but this was due to the overt corruption of the preisthood of the time. The problem of hypocrisy does not mean do not enforce the law.

It does address it: not executing others if it makes you a hypocrite is the Oral Torah given by Jesus to be observed along with Written Torah regarding execution.

This is unfortunate. Though you comment and give opinion's on secular issues above. I consider this view irresponsible and hypocritical.

I can comment all I want without voting anything into law.

Maybe you only consider it irresponsible and hypocritical because your mind is brainwashed to think secular governments are the end all to be all, ever consider that?

While the only valid government for me is God's Kingdom, though I can exist under secular governments without getting lovey-dovey with them.

If Jesus and disciples were able to vote for a Caesar, do you think they would have? I really doubt it. So that's my model.