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STR Ambassador
September 28th 2004, 12:41 PM
To say creationism isn't scientific involves two false assumptions about science. This makes the exclusion of intelligent creation from the realm of science arbitrary.

Science Isn't, Science Is

by Greg Koukl

Stephen Jay Gould, evolution's popular icon from Harvard, has fired his latest salvo against creation in his new book, Rocks of Ages. He continues to advance the idea that the term "creation science" is an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms.

There are even some Christian thinkers who agree with him. Creation, they suggest, is theological. Science is empirical. Religion and science, like oil and water, don't mix. They represent two entirely different "magisteriums," in Gould's words. Science is the domain of fact and reason. Religion is the domain of belief and faith.

Line of Demarcation

Implicit in such statements is the assumption that there is a precise definition of science. Any discipline that does not conform to this definition is "unscientific," being outside of science. Add to that the prevailing mood of scientism (only the methods of science can be trusted to tell us what's true) and the result is that all other disciplines--including theology--yield nothing but interesting beliefs, not facts.

To say that any form of creationism is not science involves two assumptions. First, it presumes there is a clear line of demarcation between science and non-science (with creation on the non-science side of that line). Second, it presumes that disciplines outside of science have no place intruding upon scientific conclusions. That would pit fact against faith.

However, the exclusion of intelligent creation from the realm of science is arbitrary for two reasons. First, the fact is there is no clear line of demarcation between science and non-science. Second, even if there were such a line, it wouldn't automatically mean that well justified conclusions from other disciplines could not have a bearing on scientific thinking.

Necessary and Sufficient

Three things are required to establish a clear line of demarcation between science and non-science. First, one would have to identify necessary conditions that any discipline must satisfy to qualify for the label "scientific." A necessary condition is a minimal requirement, an essential element that must be present in every case. It allows us to point to clear examples of things that are immediately excluded as science.

Second, one would have to identify sufficient conditions that any discipline must satisfy to qualify for the label "scientific." What constellation of factors are adequate for a definition? When is enough enough? Sufficient conditions allow us to point to clear examples of things that are immediately included in the class.

For example, for a geometric figure to be a square, it must be a closed, two-dimensional form consisting of four straight lines that are connected. This is absolutely necessary. Any form that does not have these characteristics isn't even in consideration.

This isn't enough, though. It's not sufficient. A parallelogram and some rectangles fit this description, yet are not squares. More is needed. If you add that each line needs to be the same length and all connecting angles are 90o, then you have added other conditions that, in sum, are sufficient to encompass all squares. Anything fulfilling the necessary conditions might be a square, and anything satisfying the sufficient requirements must be a square.

To get a good grade on an essay test it is necessary that one know the material, but that is not enough. He must also be able to articulate the correct answers clearly in writing. That would be sufficient.

Both boundaries are needed. If there are only necessary conditions, then you can clearly know some things that are not scientific, but you can't state with certainty what things are. On the other hand, if there are only sufficient conditions, you can clearly know some things that are science, but you can never state with certainty what things are not.

Note that sufficient requirements are not always necessary. Owning a billion dollars is sufficient in itself to qualify you as rich, but there are many rich people who are not billionaires.

In or Out?

The third requirement for a valid definition of science is that the necessary and sufficient conditions must include everything we already understand to be science and exclude those things that clearly are not.

This is where the real problem lies. Virtually any attempt to list necessary and sufficient conditions for a definition of science either includes things clearly not scientific, or excludes things that clearly are.

Let me give some examples. When the question "What are the elements of science?" comes up, certain components are cited. Characteristics are offered like observation, experimental repeatability, falsification, conformity to natural laws, etc. But are any of these elements either necessary or sufficient to identify an activity as scientific?

None of these are really necessary, in our sense of the term. Too many bona fide scientific procedures do not use them. No one has observed a magnetic field itself. It's hard to imagine a repeatable experiment that would address the issue of the extinction of the dinosaurs. The concept of "survival of the fittest" is not falsifiable. And the Big Bang is allegedly a singularity that is the source of natural law, and therefore could not be caused by it. However, each of these is unquestionably within the realm of science.

It seems equally clear that none of these could be sufficient conditions for science either. Biblical exegesis relies on observation. Spiritual regeneration is a repeatable event (by another "experimenter", that is). Theological doctrines are, at least in principle, falsifiable. And math and logic conform to a type of law. Yet none of these, by virtue of the presence of those elements, would be considered scientific.

The point is simply this: Apart from a clear line of demarcation identifying both necessary and sufficient conditions for science, it is presumptuous to exclude intelligent creation from the field of science. If, on the other hand, science is defined not by necessary and sufficient conditions, but by a constellation of endeavors that generally characterize clear-cut cases of science, that allows us to make meaningful distinctions between science and non-science. However, this method also qualifies intelligent design as scientific because it employs that same constellation of techniques the other disciplines do.

Problems on the Outside

One other element--the notion of external conceptual problems--bears on the issue of the singular authority of science in the area of knowledge. These are problems raised in a discipline outside of science that are reasonable and rationally justified, yet conflict with the conclusions of science.

For example, one conclusion of science may reduce man to a brain and a body, denying the metaphysical dimension of the soul. Man is simply a machine made of meat, locked in a mechanistic universe of cause and effect. If, however, other disciplines--like philosophy, ethics, or theology--could provide legitimate reasons for the existence of the soul, this would weigh against the "scientific" conclusion.

In the twentieth century, science has become an elitist, parochial enterprise. This is unwarranted. First, there is no clear set of conditions--either necessary or sufficient--that distinguish science from non-science. Second, even if there were, non-scientific enterprises like philosophy, theology, and ethics might contribute legitimate, defensible conclusions that represent problems for some scientific views.

Well-justified conclusions from other disciplines ought not be dismissed out of hand. To disregard a view simply because it's "religious" or "theological" is obscurantist. If truth is really the object of the scientific enterprise, scientists should welcome it from any source.



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Superbug
September 28th 2004, 03:44 PM
I think (almost) all scientific theories are falsifiable, even the "survival of the fittest". If antibiotic-susceptible bacteria were surviving while antibiotic-resistance bacteria were dying, that would certainly make us question the theory of natural selection.

On the other hand, no scientific theory is based on authority arguments. Creation "science" is based on what's written in a book. Intelligent design would have been a perfectly valid hypothesis if we could find evidence for it other than the Bible.

Intelligent design introduces the concept of a creator and science does not support this conclusion directly. A creator might exist but this theory isn't necessary to explain the outcome of any scientific experiments. So far natural evolution is a much better explanation than intelligent design because it provides a mechanism. Creation "science" just says God created living beings according to Genesis and leave it at that.

Minnesota
September 28th 2004, 05:33 PM
I don't have the stomach to read any creation "science" crap right now, but I did force myself to scan this one. And unless one simple fact was buried somewhere in the tripe, the author, like so many creation scientists, conveniently ignores it. And this simple fact? Science is the result from people doing science. Creationist don't do science, yet they feel because they hold beliefs involving facts uncovered by science, these beliefs are A science: "Creation Science." Biological science is so called because it entails people DOING things with biological subjects. Molecular science is so called because it entails people DOING things with molecules. Soil science is so called because it entails people DOING things with the soil. Creation "scientists" do NOT do anything with ANYTHING, other than try to reconcile science knowledge with the Bible. Doing such reconciliation is not doing science, it's doing apologetics, and the last I checked, apologetics was not science.

Xavier
September 28th 2004, 05:36 PM
Science is the result from people doing science.

Oooo... Is that Circular or what?

Minnesota
September 28th 2004, 05:38 PM
Yeah, I didn't like it when I wrote it, but at the time I wasn't caring, so I let it stand.

Xavier
September 28th 2004, 05:45 PM
Yeah, I didn't like it when I wrote it, but at the time I wasn't caring, so I let it stand.
Happens to the best of us.

I think the point still stands.

Starkman
September 28th 2004, 05:55 PM
On the other hand, no scientific theory is based on authority arguments. Creation "science" is based on what's written in a book. Intelligent design would have been a perfectly valid hypothesis if we could find evidence for it other than the Bible
First, creation science is not (just) based on a book (presumably the Bible). Second, the Koukl's point is that it isn't just in science that truth is found. Evidence for a d/Designer is found through philosophical reasoning: relativism--morals based on no absolutes--diminishes in its strength of argument for absolutes morals--based on a g/Giver of morals, who might just be the originator of everything else also. There is clear evidence for a god within the philosophical arena.

And unless one simple fact was buried somewhere in the tripe, the author, like so many creation scientists, conveniently ignores it. And this simple fact? Science is the result from people doing science. Creationist don't do science, yet they feel because they hold beliefs involving facts uncovered by science, these beliefs are A science: "Creation Science." Biological science is so called because it entails people DOING things with biological subjects. Molecular science is so called because it entails people DOING things with molecules. Soil science is so called because it entails people DOING things with the soil. Creation "scientists" do NOT do anything with ANYTHING, other than try to reconcile science knowledge with the Bible. Doing such reconciliation is not doing science, it's doing apologetics, and the last I checked, apologetics was not science.
The point Koukl made was twofold: First, science cannot claim to be the only avenue of discovering truth, because it doesn't even have clear demarcations as to what is and is not classified as science and the practice of science. Second, to quote the last of the article, even if there were, non-scientific enterprises like philosophy, theology, and ethics might contribute legitimate, defensible conclusions that represent problems for some scientific views.
Well-justified conclusions from other disciplines ought not be dismissed out of hand. To disregard a view simply because it's "religious" or "theological" is obscurantist. If truth is really the object of the scientific enterprise, scientists should welcome it from any source.

This has nothing to do with people doing science. Further, it has everyting to do with not looking to science alone as the only source of truth. That was his point, though you may disagree, or not disagree, with his reasoning.

Starkman

Superbug
September 28th 2004, 06:20 PM
First, creation science is not (just) based on a book (presumably the Bible).

You mean ridiculous arguments like "the second law of thermodynamics contradicts evolution"? :ahem:

Second, the Koukl's point is that it isn't just in science that truth is found.

Of course. Truth and science are not the same thing. Truth is the goal, science is the method. And creation "science" isn't science.

Evidence for a d/Designer is found through philosophical reasoning: relativism--morals based on no absolutes--diminishes in its strength of argument for absolutes morals--based on a g/Giver of morals, who might just be the originator of everything else also.

You might like to believe that there is a giver of morals but this isn't an argument for God's existence. A theory is not false just because you don't like its consequences.

There is clear evidence for a god within the philosophical arena.

Many philosophers and I wouldn't agree with you.

If truth is really the object of the scientific enterprise, scientists should welcome it from any source.

No one is denying truth because it comes from religious sources. You still have to show that your religion is true.

Minnesota
September 28th 2004, 07:12 PM
The point Koukl made was twofold: First, science cannot claim to be the only avenue of discovering truth, because it doesn't even have clear demarcations as to what is and is not classified as science and the practice of science.
I don't believe ANY scientist would ever say that the practice of science is the "only avenue of discovering truth." So, in my estimation, the point is moot.
Second, to quote the last of the article, even if there were, non-scientific enterprises like philosophy, theology, and ethics might contribute legitimate, defensible conclusions that represent problems for some scientific views.
So what? Just because other fields of human enterprise might present problems to some aspect of scientific endeavor--think of ethical considerations in doing certain experiments--this does not mean that such fields are in some way science. The process of science often involves tangential aspects, such as political influences or consideration, but this does not mean that such considerations are a factor in the validity of a conclusion. The strength of any scientific investigation rests in following information to its logical conclusions, irrespective of any philosophical, theological, or ethical consideration.
Well-justified conclusions from other disciplines ought not be dismissed out of hand. To disregard a view simply because it's "religious" or "theological" is obscurantist.
Of course not. But give me an example of such a "well-justified conclusion" from religion. And, I won't accept any example that does not conform to the principles of scientific investigation, one preferably adhering to the scientific method.
If truth is really the object of the scientific enterprise, scientists should welcome it from any source.
Yes it should, but the "truth" offered up by religions is very unlikely to be of any value to science. Should it actually be of value, it would have to first undergo the rigors of scientific validation. But, on the off chance there may be something out there they're sitting on, one you are aware of, I await your presentation.
This has nothing to do with people doing science. Further, it has everyting to do with not looking to science alone as the only source of truth. That was his point, though you may disagree, or not disagree, with his reasoning.

You're right, Creation Science has nothing to do with people doing science, so why do they insist that they are Creation scientists? And why do they insist on calling their apologetics a science? Because it sounds reputable......a pathetic devise to fool the ignorant

Superbug
September 28th 2004, 07:34 PM
Exactly, you can't present your point of view and expect all scientists to embrace it and turn it into a scientific theory for you. If you believe something is true while everyone else doesn't, you have to present your ideas as a testable scientific theory.

For instance, a lot of people think that garlic can help cure the common cold. This might be true but at first it's not science. First you have to test this hypothesis with a serious study. Do patients really get better after eating garlic compared with a control group? Then you might try to isolate the active substance and describe its chemical properties etc. If you succeed, your theory will become a part of science but not before.

Sacrificial Ram
September 28th 2004, 08:06 PM
I think (almost) all scientific theories are falsifiable, even the "survival of the fittest". If antibiotic-susceptible bacteria were surviving while antibiotic-resistance bacteria were dying, that would certainly make us question the theory of natural selection.

On the other hand, no scientific theory is based on authority arguments. Creation "science" is based on what's written in a book. Intelligent design would have been a perfectly valid hypothesis if we could find evidence for it other than the Bible.

Intelligent design introduces the concept of a creator and science does not support this conclusion directly. A creator might exist but this theory isn't necessary to explain the outcome of any scientific experiments. So far natural evolution is a much better explanation than intelligent design because it provides a mechanism. Creation "science" just says God created living beings according to Genesis and leave it at that.
For something to be a scientific theory, it HAS to make predictions, and also be falsifiable.

What 'creationism' does not do is attempt to make predictions, explain how things work, or create a testable statement, if proven true, proves their
concept is false. Neither does "I.D."

HRG_new
September 29th 2004, 04:18 AM
First, creation science is not (just) based on a book (presumably the Bible). Second, the Koukl's point is that it isn't just in science that truth is found. Evidence for a d/Designer is found through philosophical reasoning: relativism--morals based on no absolutes--diminishes in its strength of argument for absolutes morals--based on a g/Giver of morals, who might just be the originator of everything else also.

I think you confuse relative and subjective morals. Monotheist morals are inherently relative because they exempt a specific being from the reach of moral norms (i.e. monotheist moral norms are relative to the actor).
And if you want to argue from objective morality, you first have to demonstrate that it exists.

There is clear evidence for a god within the philosophical arena.

There is no objective evidence for a god within philosophy. All philosophical arguments for a god start from some premises which are peculiar to a particular worldview; thus they are subjective.

The point Koukl made was twofold: First, science cannot claim to be the only avenue of discovering truth, because it doesn't even have clear demarcations as to what is and is not classified as science and the practice of science.

And it doesn't.
However, it can claim to be the only avenue of discovering testable truth.

Second, to quote the last of the article, even if there were, non-scientific enterprises like philosophy, theology, and ethics might contribute legitimate, defensible conclusions that represent problems for some scientific views.

How could they do that, since they have to start from the results of science - objective, testable facts ? For instance, any philosophical, ethical or theological argument which is based on a 6000-year old Earth or on the existence of an absolute space can be safely disregarded. Similarly, any argument (like the Cosmological one) which relies on strict causality is obviously not conclusive

The task of philosophy is not to establish statements, but to clarify them, as Wittgenstein said.
Ethics does not deal with "what is", but with "what should be done" - i.e. not with truth, but with validity within a particular moral system.
Theological truths are relative to a particular religion: a statement can be true/Christian, but false/Islam.

Thus all three are not competitors of science in the business of establishing reliable statements about reality.


Well-justified conclusions from other disciplines ought not be dismissed out of hand. To disregard a view simply because it's "religious" or "theological" is obscurantist. If truth is really the object of the scientific enterprise, scientists should welcome it from any source.

But truth is not a single concept. Mathematical truth is distinct from religious truth - with its many sub-truths -, and both are distinct from scientific truth.

Mathematical truth is absolute and objective, but doesn't deal with reality.
Religious truth is absolute and deals with reality, but it is not objective.
Scientific truth is objective and deals with reality, but it is not absolute.

EvoUK
September 29th 2004, 11:44 AM
I don't really like these threads- the thread starter starts a thread off then makes no effort to defend a position he/she obviously holds.

First, creation science is not (just) based on a book (presumably the Bible).

I’d like to see something from creationists that isn’t based on preconceived ideas based on their interpretation of a holy book.

Second, the Koukl's point is that it isn't just in science that truth is found.

Science is currently the best known method of describing how known observations occur. Philosophy is an area where people speculate why things work how they do- yet can never come to any real conclusions due to there being no known method of doing this.

Evidence for a d/Designer is found through philosophical reasoning: relativism--morals based on no absolutes--diminishes in its strength of argument for absolutes morals--based on a g/Giver of morals, who might just be the originator of everything else also.

Because someone can conceive of a better way of how things should work- for example morals- doesn’t mean that’s how it works. I agree that an absolute law-giver may be an easier method than moral relativism (real moral relativism, not the absurd “do what you like” strawman version), however, that doesn’t disprove moral relativism nor does it prove there are moral absolutes.

Reality isn’t effected by how you wish it to be.

There is clear evidence for a god within the philosophical arena.

I couldn’t disagree more- all I see is wishful thinking.

Minnesota
September 29th 2004, 12:50 PM
I don't really like these threads- the thread starter starts a thread off then makes no effort to defend a position he/she obviously holds.
I agree.

From the Sticky, Important Notice (rules of the Stand To Reason Forum)

Notice – The ministries featured in this section of TheologyWeb are guests of this site and in some cases not bargaining for the rough and tumble world of debate forums, though sometimes they are. Additionally, this area is frequented and highlighted for guests who also very often are not acclimated to debate fora. As such, the rules of conduct here will be more strict than in the general forum. This will be something within the discretion of the Moderators and the Ministry Representative, but we simply ask that you conduct yourselves in a manner considerate of the fact that these ministries are our invited guests. You can always feel free to start a related thread in general forum without such extra restrictions. Thank you.

Evidently, the purpose of this forum is afford STR a place to post whatever position strikes its fancy. And, obviously STR has no intention of discussing these positions, much less defending them. Fair enough, we all have the option of ignoring them. However, it is vexing to come across misrepresentations and faulty thinking on a web site devoted to discussion, and then not be able to engage the OPer.

Why bother with a rule like " in some cases [STR is] not bargaining for the rough and tumble world of debate forums, though sometimes they are," when STR has no intention of discussing anything?

Done with my mini rant :wink: Everyone back to work.

EvoUK
September 29th 2004, 01:00 PM
I'd love to discuss some of the things STR has brought up with him/her/whoever posts those damned OPs. If the posts are an example of who he/she/it thinks then it would make a mildly amusing and interesting distraction for me.

Soundsurfr
September 29th 2004, 01:11 PM
Second, the Koukl's point is that it isn't just in science that truth is found.
Really? And how does one know when the truth has been found?

Evidence for a d/Designer is found through philosophical reasoning:
Philosophizing does not provide "evidence" of anything.

relativism--morals based on no absolutes--diminishes in its strength of argument for absolutes morals--based on a g/Giver of morals, who might just be the originator of everything else also. There is clear evidence for a god within the philosophical arena.
Plato dispensed with this argument a few thousand years ago.

cinper
August 4th 2005, 06:03 PM
In reading the latest issue of Solid Ground ("In the current rift between science and religion..."), I find myself sympathetic with Van Till's view that "religion tells us how to get to heaven; science tells us how the heavens go." Let me explain why.

If we rely on the Bible to tell us of our cosmology, then we can quickly conclude that the Bible is in error. This has only been known for certain within the past 400 years or so, but the Bible's cosmology is incorrect nonetheless.

Take, for example, the geocentric view of the universe (the Earth is at the center of all things).

The whole cosmological model of the first chapter of Genesis suggests the long-held belief that the Earth was at the center of the Universe, with the sun, moon, and stars orbiting in spherical fashion. The fact that the sun and moon are delineated as being created after the Earth suggests a gross misunderstanding of the nature of these bodies. There are verses in Chronicles and Psalms that mention the Earth standing firm on its foundations (I Chronicles 16:30; Psalms 93:1;96:10;104:5) and there is a passage in Joshua that has him commanding the sun to stand still (Joshua 10:12-13) implying, of course, that it was the sun which rotated around the Earth. A surface reading of Scripture seems to place the Earth at the center of everything, and proposes that the Earth is indeed flat (references to "the four corners of the Earth" in Isaiah 11:12, for example). This is what the Christian church believed (and everyone else, surely) for thousands of years. In the Christian church's case, they believed this for at least 1500 years. It is plain that the Earth has no foundation in the builder's sense, and the shape of the Earth is not in question. The Bible, literally, says the Earth is little more than 6000 years old. This is plainly ridiculous.

Polish astronomer Copernicus, in the 16th century (Luther's time), put forth the heliocentric view of the Universe (the Sun was at the center). Galileo, in 1602, expanded upon this theory and was roundly excommunicated. He was finally reinstated in the late 20th Century to the Church's good graces.

The following quote of Luther's is taken from Luther's Tablebook (Tischreden), or record of dinner-table conversations:
"There is talk of a new astrologer who wants to prove that the earth moves and goes around instead of the sky, the sun, the moon, just as if somebody were moving in a carriage or ship might hold that he was sitting still and at rest while the earth and the trees walked and moved. But that is how things are nowadays: when a man wishes to be clever he must needs invent something special, and the way he does it must needs be the best! The fool wants to turn the whole art of astronomy upside-down. However, as Holy Scripture tells us, so did Joshua bid the sun to stand still and not the earth."

Luther had opinions. Luther was wrong. The Church thought the Earth was central to the Universe. The Church was dead wrong for over 1500 years.

Now, if Luther appealed to the Bible for science, and was wrong, how do we today propose to keep commiting the same mistake? I do not know how I can defend what I see to be an incorrect Biblical cosmology. This puts a whole new spin on the phrases "the Word of God" and "Biblical inerrancy."