Lyrics vs. Music

[Em7add11]

I've gone around and around with several of my friends on this issue. Most of them consider lyrics to be the most important part of a song and that a song with bad lyrics is automatically a bad song. I'm of the opinion that since songs are musical entities, the music is the most important detail. I've heard many songs with brilliant lyrics that are more boring than watching grass grow.

It might be because I'm not a singer/lyricist. I'm more interested in the music because that's what appeals to me the most. If I wanted to hear a deep theological treatise, I'd read a book. Lyrics do play a role in a song, but it's only part of the whole.

Any thoughts?

[Epoetker]

My experience with VG music means...yep, I'm ALL about the music. When I'm prosaic I'm prosaic, when I'm musical I'm musical. I do appreciate a good synthesis for worship though.

[Jin-Roh]

I've gone around and around with several of my friends on this issue. Most of them consider lyrics to be the most important part of a song and that a song with bad lyrics is automatically a bad song. I'm of the opinion that since songs are musical entities, the music is the most important detail. I've heard many songs with brilliant lyrics that are more boring than watching grass grow.

Bad Lyrics can very easily destroy a good song. Just think Led Zeppelin. But I've also heard all the self-styled "poets" who might write "really profound" lyrics but to boooooring music. Jewel comes to mind there.

I personally am more inclined to the musical side. I can tolerate a good song with bad lyrics (but of course I still want good lyrics) but good lyrics and boring song I've never taken a liking to.

About the only really Lyrically intensive band I've ever really liked have a been a few songs by the Vigilanties of Love. Nothing much beyond that.

[Lizard]

I think that that is a typical response. Musicians, tend to focus more on the music, and non-musicians on the lyrics.

I don't know about you, but I get more out of a music worship service if I am playing an instrument than if I am just singing. For me, playing a good piece of music well, is very uplifting.

I find playing music to be a very special form of worship for me.

(of course, if you heard me sing, you would thank God that He gave me a desire to play instead of sing)

[Pilgrim]

Yeah let's hear it for Bill Malone and Vigilantes of Love. Laong with them I'll add Mark Heard, Bruce Cockburn and Harrod and Funk and Jason Harrod.

They all combine the best of thoughtful lyrics with awesome music.

Bad music can destroy the best lyrics and bad lyrics can destroy the best music though I tend to be more forgiving when it's the lyrics that are bad and the music is good.

[Pilgrim]

Today @ 02:55 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=84343#post84343)
Faramir:

(of course, if you heard me sing, you would thank God that He gave me a desire to play instead of sing)

Well you know what they say...If God gave you a terrible voice, give it back loudly!

[Em7add11]

Today @ 01:53 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=84341#post84341)
Jin-Roh:

About the only really Lyrically intensive band I've ever really liked have a been a few songs by the Vigilanties of Love. Nothing much beyond that.

I've gotten to where I love the lyrics to Pedro the Lion songs. The music tends to get very repetative by the 3rd or 4th song though. That's the only band I can think of that I feel that way about.

[Jin-Roh]

Oh yeah Pedro the Lion, I forget about that guy.
HIs lyrics are clever, but yeah his music is dull.....and depressing.

[Em7add11]

Today @ 01:55 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=84343#post84343)
Faramir:

I think that that is a typical response. Musicians, tend to focus more on the music, and non-musicians on the lyrics.

I think that may be the distinction. Left to my own devices I just try to decipher how to play songs I hear. I've been working on my singing abilities a little lately and I realized how few song lyrics that I know. I don't even know the words to my band's songs, except for the isolated lines I sing.

[Pilgrim]

I was in a little fold rock trio a few years back and we always picked the songs that had the best lyrics. But we never picked a song with horrible music.

I think the two go together more than anything else.

[Em7add11]

Today @ 02:01 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=84354#post84354)
Jin-Roh:

Oh yeah Pedro the Lion, I forget about that guy.
HIs lyrics are clever, but yeah his music is dull.....and depressing.

His music tends to mirror the subject of the song. His songs about death and abandonment are usually slower and darker. On the flip side, he has a sexually-charged song called "Rapture" that is a pretty catchy rock song musically. I admire him for being able to make the music evoke the mood of the song. You're not joking about him being depressing more often than not though.

[efta777]

IMO, if a song has great music but mediocre lyrics, I can still like the song but the song will never be GREAT to me. In order to be a great song, and in order for me to enjoy listening to it over and over, it MUST have both. This is why I like U2, Tribe of Judah, Moke, RHCP, etc...

[dawnghost]

05-01-2003 @ 07:43 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=84324#post84324)
Em7add11:Any thoughts?

hey... I may help you on this

you see... I don't think it's as simple as that. I am a big music lover, and I like a wide variety of genres, from classical and jazz to extreme black metal.

BUT... even though I just love the musical works of bands such as Cradle of Filth, Emperor, Dark Funeral and Dimmu Borgir, I just can't listen to them. I see their albums on the heavy metal stores, and when the music plays... that's one kind of music that I really LOVE! so intense! so chaotic, full of fear, of fright and anger! it's like a modern, violent version of Wagner!!

and I can't listen to them. I become angry because of their lyrics, all so full of blasphemy and filth! it makes me sick, it makes me want to stop listening, I just hate it and I turn it off.

so there it goes. music is a form of expression, it's not pure theory IMHO.

that's why I listen to Children of Bodom. they have black metal growls and all the keyboard atmosphere and frenzy, but not the blasphemy. :smile:

[DanielleJoy]

I used to ONLY care about lyrics, even when I played piano and started playing guitar... oh the shame of the boy-band years *hangs head*

Then I was forced to start listening to trance en masse, most of which has no lyrics, and listening to my boyfriend write songs, and hearing his opinions on music, and I started recognizing musical ability as well as lyrics... my theory is that if you don't know much about music, you're going to like lyrics better because you relate to them and you can be involved with them through singing, but if you're either more exposed to music without words or if you know what's going on with the beats, melodies, harmonies, ect, you can easily be content with just that.

Think about this, there exists TONS of music with no lyrics, classical, electronica, ect... but how much less often do you see songs that JUST have vocals?

[hupertheos]

I used to think lyrics were the most important thing - even to the extent that I allegorised One Bad Pig's 20-second song Pad Thai to be a song about needing Jesus. :doh:

Nowadays, I listen to the music more than I do the lyrics. I can't remember the lyrics to most songs I've heard that've been written since 1998. :help:

[Lizard]

Today @ 11:06 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=88894#post88894)
hupertheos:

I used to think lyrics were the most important thing - even to the extent that I allegorised One Bad Pig's 20-second song Pad Thai to be a song about needing Jesus. :doh:

Nowadays, I listen to the music more than I do the lyrics. I can't remember the lyrics to most songs I've heard that've been written since 1998. :help:

One Bad Pig. :thumb:

[hupertheos]

[i]Yesterday @ 06:19 PM
One Bad Pig. :thumb:

Oh, yes. . . whenever I put Swine Flew on the CD player, I remember why I liked them so much. I think they've been my biggest musical influence - along with Nirvana.
:rockon:

[Lizard]

Today @ 02:10 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=89663#post89663)
hupertheos:



Oh, yes. . . whenever I put Swine Flew on the CD player, I remember why I liked them so much. I think they've been my biggest musical influence - along with Nirvana.
:rockon:

I only had the casset tape which has worn out. I sure do miss it, by favorite Pig album with I Scream Sunday a close second.

[Em7add11]

I was a little young for One Bad Pig. My earliest memories of getting into hardcore music was a band called Strongarm. Their last album was good enough that it still doesn't sound dated all these years later.

[hupertheos]

My favourite Strongarm track was the one that began with the Darth Vader 'I find your lack of faith disturbing' sample. . . Mind you, I never really listened to much of their stuff! I always preferred Training for Utopia. . . A classic example of listening to the music more than the lyrics, for I could never make out most of these. :wink:

[Lizard]

I was never really "into" hard core music. But for some reason, I really like OBP. :shrug:

[hupertheos]

For me, OBP were just. . . unique. I was attracted to the name and that they were apparently quite heavy. At the time I was into Petra, White Heart and the occasional heavier band. . . and then the Pig came along. Face it, there's never been any Petra song quite like 'See Me Sweat' or 'Bowl of Wrath', and the Pig's version of 'Judas Kiss' was incredible! :wink:

Ah, OBP. . . I remember thee.

Did you get the Cornerstone 2000 live album at all?

[Lizard]

Today @ 05:36 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=90825#post90825)
hupertheos:

For me, OBP were just. . . unique. I was attracted to the name and that they were apparently quite heavy. At the time I was into Petra, White Heart and the occasional heavier band. . . and then the Pig came along. Face it, there's never been any Petra song quite like 'See Me Sweat' or 'Bowl of Wrath', and the Pig's version of 'Judas Kiss' was incredible! :wink:

Ah, OBP. . . I remember thee.

Did you get the Cornerstone 2000 live album at all?

Didn't get that one. :rant:

And it seems like we had very similar background in music listening (Petra, White Heart). And OBP is definitely unique. Did you know that John Hartman (I think his FN is John) of Petra played the lead guitar track on the OBP version of Judas Kiss?

After I discovered OBP however I branched out into other less "mainstream" artist like Steve Taylor, the Choir, Jacobs Trouble, Crumbacher (sp?) etc.

[hupertheos]

Yesterday @ 02:36 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=90945#post90945)
Faramir:Did you know that John Hartman (I think his FN is John) of Petra played the lead guitar track on the OBP version of Judas Kiss?

Yeah. . . There were quite a few guest musicians on Swine Flew. I'm surprised they managed to get them all.

After I discovered OBP however I branched out into other less "mainstream" artist like Steve Taylor, the Choir, Jacobs Trouble, Crumbacher (sp?) etc.

Oh, Steve Taylor - fantastic lyricist; The Choir - great stuff, though a little too samey now for my liking (Chase the Kangaroo through to Speckled Bird, they were great!); never listened to the other two.

I really listened a lot to bands like Mortal, The Prayer Chain, Poor Old Lu and so on - and I still do!

Come 1993/1994, I discovered Tooth & Nail, Starflyer 59, Blenderhead and a few others and never looked back.

:joy:

[Patroclus]

I don't think that music or lyrics trump the other in importance. So much Music (capital M for the general term) today relies on the music as a vehicle for lyrics. I think this is poor artistry. Of course, there are songs without words and accapella songs as well. I think that music and lyrics in the same song are a coming together of two aspects of Music. Therefore, the music and the lyrics should compliment eachother--be intertwined. A few have said that bad lyrics can ruin a song, and visa-versa. It is like putting rancid butter on a Lobster Thermadore. Without the butter, it isn't the same dish. But with bad butter, it is unpalatteable.

[One Bad Pig]

Faramir:

Didn't get that one. :rant:

I got it. Man, to have been there... I even have A Christian Banned, their demo tape (looks like it was put together by the band) :smug:

Faramir:
And it seems like we had very similar background in music listening (Petra, White Heart). And OBP is definitely unique. Did you know that John Hartman (I think his FN is John) of Petra played the lead guitar track on the OBP version of Judas Kiss?

That's Bob Hartman. :smile: By the time I graduated high school ('92), I had every single Petra release on tape. As of now, I'm missing, um, Back to the Street on CD. They really went downhill after Bob stopped playing, though.

Faramir:
After I discovered OBP however I branched out into other less "mainstream" artist like Steve Taylor, the Choir, Jacobs Trouble, Crumbacher (sp?) etc.

I had a friend in high school who introduced me to OBP, Tourniquet, and Vengeance Rising. I also found out about a local radio show called the Thunderzone (now sadly defunct) that played Christian metal from 11-2 Friday nights. I didn't discover Steve Taylor until a couple years ago (and then discovered Larry Norman). I'd really like to find a copy of So Long Ago The Garden.

[garthoverman]

05-01-2003 @ 12:02 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=84357#post84357)
Em7add11:

I think that may be the distinction. Left to my own devices I just try to decipher how to play songs I hear. I've been working on my singing abilities a little lately and I realized how few song lyrics that I know. I don't even know the words to my band's songs, except for the isolated lines I sing.

:lmbo:

I know exactly what you mean. I was even worse in that I would make up NEW lyrics that sounded something like the REAL lyrics but were funny/dirty/stupid/etc... I made my vocalist kind of upset.

...and I wonder why we couldn't keep that band together.... :huh:

Me, I think that music is foundational to a song. What I mean is that even dumb lyrics will sound good if they're sung well and in good harmony with the music, and bad music and bad harmony aren't enough to make good lyrics appealing. That applies at all levels of phrasing and sequencing.

Yours,
Garth

[PRAISE]

If you really want to talk about bad lyrics, with great music, listen to the song "SURFER BIRD", by the TRASHMEN! There is a rather interesting story about that song. Someone had said that regardless of how bad a song is, there is always someone who will buy it! Well, that was certainly true of this song! I believe that it sold 5 MILLION copies!

PRAISE:thumb:

[Captain Ochre]

05-01-2003 @ 08:04 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=84360#post84360)
Pilgrim:

I was in a little fold rock trio a few years back and we always picked the songs that had the best lyrics. But we never picked a song with horrible music.

I think the two go together more than anything else.

Yes!
But bad music spoils a song more surely than bad (or no) lyrics, imo.
Though I've mentioned the group before, I'll plug them again: the innocence mission.
Great lyrics, usually married to good or better melodies.

the innocence mission is on the mellow side, with Roman Catholic touches.
For the harder stuff, try Atomic Opera. They're slightly in the mold of King's X, but with passionate Reformed-influenced lyrics and no appreciable nods to the Christian sub-culture (that's good, in my opinion).
Do I need to give you guys links?
Support good art by Christians.

[Dr. Jay]

Music and lyrics are like a marriage. For a song to be good, both partners need to play off of each others strengths and weaknesses. Usually the first thing that catches a persons ear is a good tune. But to keep (hopefully) most people intrested it needs to have some meaning, thought provoking, or clever lyrics. But let me jump back to the music. As a music major and well trained instrumentalist, I can't stand music with unintresting parts. All you bass players out there better start getting creative. So for all you aspiring song writers, remeber not to neglect either part of the song.

Rock On! :rockon:

[Lazy Agnostic]

05-01-2003 @ 02:55 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=84343#post84343)
Faramir:
(of course, if you heard me sing, you would thank God that He gave me a desire to play instead of sing)
There's an african saying.
If you can walk, you can dance; if you can talk, you can sing.
Take voice lessons; discover the tools. It takes talent to be great; anyone can learn to sing pleasingly well.

[geebob]

I gotta say I love "mack the knife" as song sung by Louie Armstrong. But man the lyrics are violent.

the mcdonalds version wasn't bad. "big macs tonight"


I think Rich Mullins does an awsome job combining profound music with profound lyrics.