The Garden of Eden Myth

[Maimonides]

I realize this is quite long; sorry but it's more interesting and cohesive if I post most of the article rather than try to paraphrase it. ~Maimonides

"And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed" (Genesis 2:8). Then the majestic words become quite specific: "And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. And the name of the third river is Hiddekel [Tigris]: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates" (Genesis 2:10-14).
But where now are the Pison and the Gihon? And where, if indeed it existed as a geographically specific place, was the Garden of Eden? Theologians, historians, ordinary inquisitive people and men of science have tried for centuries to figure it out. Eden has been "located" in as many diverse areas as has lost Atlantis. Some early Christian fathers and late classical authors suggested it could lie in Mongolia or India or Ethiopia. They based their theories quite sensibly on the known antiquity of those regions, and on the notion that the mysterious Pison and Gihon were to be associated with those other two great rivers of the ancient world, the Nile and the Ganges.

One clue lies in linguistics: the term Eden, or Edin, appears first in Sumer, the Mesopotamian region that produced the world's first written language. This was in the third millennium B.C., more than three thousand years after the rise of the Ubaid culture. In Sumerian the word "Eden" meant simply "fertile plain." The word "Adam" also existed in cuneiform, meaning something like "settlement on the plain." Although both words were set down first in Sumerian, along with place names like Ur and Uruk, they are not Sumerian in origin. They are older. A brilliant Assyriologist named Benno Landsberger advanced the theory in 1943 that these names were all linguistic remnants of a pre-Sumerian people who had already named rivers, cities-and even some specific trades like potter anti coppersmith-before the Sumerians appeared.

Another favorite locale for the Garden had been Turkey, because both the Tigris and the Euphrates rise in the mountains there, and because Mount Ararat, where Noah's Ark came to rest, is there. In the past hundred years. since the discovery of ancient civilizations in modern Iraq, scholars have leaned toward the Tigris-Euphrates valley in general, and to the sites of southern Sumer, about 150 miles north of the present head of the Persian Gulf, in particular (map, above).

To this southern Sumerian theory Dr. Juris Zarins, of Southwest Missouri State University in Springfield, would murmur: "You're getting warmer. For Dr. Zarins, who has spent seven years working out his own hypothesis, believes that the Garden of Eden lies presently under the waters of the Persian Gulf, and he further believes that the story of Adam and Eve in-and especially out-of the Garden is a highly condensed and evocative account of perhaps the greatest revolution that ever shook mankind: the shift from hunting-gathering to agriculture.

There are two crucial if approximate dates in reconstruction. The first is about 30,000 B.C., with the transition from Neanderthal to modern Man. This, some anthropologists believe, took place along the eastern shore of the Mediterranean and Aegean seas and in Iraq. At that time the Great Ice Age still held most of Eurasia in its grip, and it caused the sea levels to fall by 400 feet so that what is now the Persian Gulf was dry land, all the way to the Strait of Hormuz. It was irrigated not only by the still-existing Tigris and Euphrates but also by the Gihon, the Pison and their tributaries from the Arabian peninsula and from Iran. It seems reasonable that technologically primitive but modern Mm, in his endless search for food, would have located the considerable natural paradise that presented itself in the area where the Gulf now lies.

But Eden wasn't born then. That came, Zarins believes, about 6000 B.C. In between 30,000 and 6000 B.C., the climate varied. From 15,000 B.C., rainfall diminished drastically. Faced with increasing aridity, the Paleolithic population retreated, some as far as the area known to us as the "Fertile Crescent" (north along the Tigris and Euphrates, westward toward the moist Mediterranean coast, south to the Nile), and also eastward to the Indus River valley. Others, perhaps wearied by the long trek, made do with the more austere conditions of central Arabia and continued foraging as best they could.

Then, at about 6000 to 5000 B.C., following a long arid stretch, came a period called the Neolithic Wet Phase when rains returned to the Gulf region. The reaches of eastern and northeastern Saudi Arabia and southwestern Iran became green and fertile again. Foraging populations came back to where the four rivers now ran full, and there was rainfall on the intervening plains. Animal bones indicate that in this period Arabia had abundant game. Thousands of stone tools suggest intensive, if seasonal, human occupation around now dry lakes and rivers. These tools are found even in the Rub al-Khali or Empty Quarter of Saudi Arabia. And so about 6000 to 5000 B.C. the land was again a paradise on Earth, provided by a bountiful nature-God---and admirably suited to the foraging life.

This time, however, there was a difference: agriculture had been invented. Not overnight-"It was a very gradual process, not an event," Zarins emphasizes. It grew up along the Mediterranean coast and in today's Iran and Iraq as groups of hunter-gatherers evolved in-to agriculturists. Foragers from central Arabia, returning to the southern Mesopotamian plain, found it already resettled by these agriculturists. Because the process occurred before writing was invented, there is no record of what upheavals the evolution caused, what tortured questions about traditional values and life-styles, what dislocations of clans or tribes. Zarins posits that it must have been far more dramatic than the infinitely later Industrial Revolution, and an earthquake in comparison with today's computer-age discombobulation of persons, professions and systems.

"What would happen to a forager when his neighbors changed their ways or when he found agriculturists had moved into his territory?" Zarins asks. These agriculturists were innovative folk who had settled down, planted seeds, domesticated and manipulated animals. They made the food come to them, in effect, instead of chasing it over hill and dale. What would the forager do if he couldn't cope? He could die; lie could move on; he could join the agriculturists. But whatever happened, he would resent it."

Eden, Adam, and the birth of writing

The crunch came, Zarins believes, here in the Tigris and Euphrates valleys and in northern Arabia, where the hunter-gatherers, flooding in from less hospitable regions, were faced with more technically accomplished humans who knew how to breed and raise animals, who made distinctive pottery, who seemed inclined to cluster in settled groups. Who were these people? Zarins believes they were a southern Mesopotamian group and culture now called the Ubaid. They founded the oldest of the southern Mesopotamian cities, Eridu, about 5000 B.C. Though Eridu, and other cities like Ur and Uruk, were discovered a century ago, the Ubaidian presence down along the coast of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia has been known for little more than a decade, when vestiges of their settlements, graves and distinctive pottery turned up.

It was in Saudi Arabia that Zarins encountered the Ubaidians, and there that he began developing his hypothesis about the true meaning of the Biblical Eden. One clue lies in linguistics: the term Eden, or Edin, appears first in Sumer, the Mesopotamian region that produced the world's first written language. This was in the third millennium B.C., more than three thousand years after the rise of the Ubaid culture. In Sumerian the word "Eden" meant simply "fertile plain." The word "Adam" also existed in cuneiform, meaning something like "settlement on the plain." Although both words were set down first in Sumerian, along with place names like Ur and Uruk, they are not Sumerian in origin. They are older. A brilliant Assyriologist named Benno Landsberger advanced the theory in 1943 that these names were all linguistic remnants of a pre-Sumerian people who had already named rivers, cities-and even some specific trades like potter anti coppersmith-before the Sumerians appeared.

Landsberger called the pre-Sumerian language simply Proto-Euphratian. Other scholars suggest that its speakers were the Ubaidians. However it was, the existing names were incorporated into Sumerian and written down for the first time. And the mythology of the lush and lovely spot called Eden was codified by being written.

"The whole Garden of Eden story, however, when finally written, could be seen to represent the point of view of the hunter gatherers," Zarins reasons. "It was the result of tension between the two groups, the collision of two ways of life. Adam and Eve were heirs to natural bounty. They had everything they needed. But they sinned and were expelled. How did they sin? By challenging God's very omnipotence. In so doing they represented the agriculturists, the upstarts who insisted on taking matters into their own hands, relying upon their knowledge and their own skills rather than on His bounty.

There were no journalists around to record the tension, no historians. But the event did not go unnoticed. It became a part of collective memory and at long last it was written down, highly condensed, in Genesis. It was very brief, but brevity doesn't mean lack of significance."

How did it happen that an advanced people would perpetuate a myth making their own ancestors the sinners? It may be that the Ubaidians, who are known to have sailed down the east coast of Arabia and colonized there, ran into descendants of foragers displaced from a drowning Eden, from them heard the awful story of the loss of paradise and repeated it until it became their own legend. Or it may be that, responding to the increasing pressures and stresses of a society growing in complexity, they found comfort in a fantasy of the good old days, when life had been sweeter, simpler, more idyllic. However, it was a tale firmly established in Ubaidian mythology, then adopted and recorded by the Sumerians.

LANDSAT spots a "fossil river"

At this stage in his thesis, Zarins goes back to geography and geology to pinpoint the area of Eden where he believes the collision came to a head. The evidence is beguiling: first, Genesis was written from a Hebrew point of view. It says the Garden was "eastward," i.e., east of Israel. It is quite specific about the rivers. The Tigris and the Euphrates are easy because they still flow. At the time Genesis was written, the Euphrates must have been the major one because it stands identified by name only and without an explanation about what it "compasseth." The Pison can be identified from the Biblical reference to the land of Havilah, which is easily located in the Biblical Table of Nations (Genesis 10:7, 25:18) as relating to localities and people within a Mesopotamian-Arabian framework. Supporting the Biblical evidence of Havilah are geological evidence on the ground and LANDSAT images from space. These images clearly show a "fossil river," that once flowed through northern Arabia and through the now dry beds, which modern Saudis and Kuwaitis know as the Wadi Riniah and the Wadi Batin. Furthermore. as the Bible says, this region was rich in bdellium, an aromatic gum resin that can still be found in north Arabia, and gold, which was still mined in the general area in the 1950s.

It is the Gihon, which "compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia," that has been the problem. In Hebrew the geographical reference was to "Gush" or "Kush." The translators of the King James Bible in the 17th century rendered Gush or Kush as "Ethiopia"---which is further to the south and in Africa--thus upsetting the geographical applecart and flummoxing researchers for centuries. Zarins now believes the Gihon is the Karun River, which rises in Iran and flows southwesterly toward the present Gulf. The Karun also shows in LANDSAT images and was a perennial river which, until it was dammed, contributed most of the sediment forming the delta at the head of the Persian Gulf.

Thus the Garden of Eden, on the geographical evidence, must have been somewhere at the head of the Gulf at a time when all four rivers joined and flowed through an area that was then above the level of the Gulf. The wording in Genesis that Eden's river came into four heads" was dealt with by Biblical scholar Ephraim Speiser some years ago: the passage, he said, refers to the four rivers upstream of their confluence into the one river watering the Garden. This is a strange perspective, but understandable if one reflects that the description is of a folk memory, written millennia after the events encapsulated, by men who had never been within leagues of the territory.

It was Speiser again who suggested that the mysterious Gush or Kush should be correctly written as Kashshu and further that it refers to the Kashshites, a people who, in about 1500 B.C , conquered Mesopotamia and prevailed until about 900 B.C. This Zarins considers a vital clue. "At the time the Kashshites were in control in Mesopotamia, the nation of Israel was being formed. The Hebrews must certainly have encountered them, and learned the handed-down traditions of early Mesopotamia, the myths and tales. They must have heard the words Eden and Adam."

The name Eve does not appear in Sumerian but there is a most intriguing link---the account of Eve's having been fashioned from Adam's rib in the Garden story. Why a rib? Well, in a famous Sumerian poem translated and analyzed by scholar Samuel Noah Kramer, there is an account of how Enki the water god angered the Mother Goddess Ninhursag by eating eight magical plants that she had created. The Mother Goddess put the curse of death on Enki and disappeared, presumably so she couldn't change her mind and relent. Later, however, when Enki became very ill and eight of his "organs" failed, Ninhursag was enticed back. She summoned eight healing deities, one for each ailing organ. Now the Sumerian word for "rib" is "ti.," but the same word also means "to make live." So the healing deity who worked on Enki's rib was called "Nin-ti" and, in a nice play on words, became both the "lady of the rib" and the "lady who makes live." This Sumerian pun didn't translate into Hebrew, in which the words for "rib" and "to make live" are quite different. But the rib itself went into the Biblical account and as "Eve" came to symbolize the "mother of all living."

This and other ties with Sumerian myth are very clear, and Zarins finds it telling that although the Hebrews had close associations with Egypt, their earliest spiritual roots were in Mesopotamia. "Abraham journeyed to Egypt, Joseph journeyed to Egypt, the whole Exodus story is concerned with Egypt, but there is nothing whatever Egyptian about the early chapters of Genesis," he points out. "All these early accounts are linked to Mesopotamia. Abraham indeed is said to have come from Ur, at the time near the Gulf, and the writers of Genesis wanted to link up with that history. So they drew from the literary sources of the greatest civilization that had existed, and that was in Mesopotamia. In so doing they turned Eden into the Garden, Adam into a man, and a compacted history of things that occurred millennia before was pressed into a few chapters."

Long before Genesis was written, Zarins believes, the physical Eden had vanished under the waters of the Gulf. Man had lived happily there. But then, about 5000 to 4000 B.C. came a worldwide phenomenon called the Flandrian Transgression, which caused a sudden rise in sea level. The Gulf began to fill with water and actually reached its modern-day level about 4000 B.C., having swallowed Eden and all the settlements along the coastline of the Gulf. But it didn't stop there. It kept right on rising, moving upward into the southern legions of today's Iraq and Iran.

http://www.ldolphin.org/eden/ (http://www.ldolphin.org/eden/)

I’ve taken the liberty of posting most of the article here. My audacity at touching on a (somewhat) controversial subject notwithstanding, I for one find the implications of this research stimulating, revolutionary, and liberating. Through science we can break the Axial Age/Medieval concept of God that has been lamentably all-too pandemic in the Christian faith, and re-discover a spirit of innovation and creativity, a dialectical process of refining and shaping our own spiritual awareness. Realizing the mythological origins of many of the happenings in the Bible is just the first step.

[kofh2u]

hello mr M,
Thank you for the interesting post and the re-print of the article.

As I read you post I thought about how many times I had heard similar commentary concerning Noah and the many flood myths that could be pointed out in other cultures long befoe Genesis. I was thinking, "So, what is it that mr. M will conclude?"

Will he suggest that the Israelites built their Hebrew Mystery upon the easy and ready vehicle of established and already popular stories?

Will he suggest that the Hebrew Mystery, (I am emphasizing the genre of this writing intentionally), incorporated what was considered to be fact in the more esoteric intent?

Or, will he conclude that Genesis is an academic effort, one of the first, if not the earliest attempt at establishing a Table of Nations. In this matter of Eden, had they merely included tales and legends as a prelude to a more accurate Table which follows. I am reminded by Isaac Asimov's book, The Bible, that he found the genealogies rather on target for such an early and primitive attempt.

Finally, just before I read the paragraph of your conclusion, I wondered if you might infer that Genesis was not the Hebrew Epic, neither is it myth, and yet further, it is not necessarily concerned with fact, though facts fuel interest in it.

It is the Hebrew Mystery, the only complete text of any Mystery to reach us from the ancient world.

The question ought occur to any literary critic of this genre, "What is beneath this open letter to the Profane which is guarded and held secret only for the initiated?

To be more clear: Everything you suggest would insure that the uninitiated reader would be mislead from the true implication. Such readers reasonably would be encouraged, in just your type of analysis, even 3000 years ago. Hadn't this reader already heard, or read a slightly modified version, one perhaps from his own culture or nation which he was more prone to believe more accurate?

Remember, before Christianity, and even today, Jews did not nor do they now encourage foreign proseltyzing. The Torah was not sacred because it was about early paleontology.

YOU POINT:
Through science we can break the Axial Age/Medieval concept of God that has been lamentably all-too pandemic in the Christian faith, and re-discover a spirit of innovation and creativity, a dialectical process of refining and shaping our own spiritual awareness. Realizing the mythological origins of many of the happenings in the Bible is just the first step.

KOFHY:
Yes, we are promised, not necessarily through science, but in "a day of great enlightenment, when knowledge abounds, and men travel freely to and fro," (Dan), that "the (Hebrew) MYSTERY OF GOD will be over."

Rev. 10:7 But in the days of (Christian Humanitarism) the voice of the seventh angel, (the spirit of human Harmony), when he, (that awakening subconscious apparatus of mind), shall begin to sound (consciously in the thoughts of men), the MYSTERY of God, (to be revealed in phylogenetic memory), should be finished, as he hath informed his servants the prophets (as recorded in scripture).

[shunyadragon]

Yes, we are promised, not necessarily through science, but in "a day of great enlightenment, when knowledge abounds, and men travel freely to and fro," (Dan), that "the (Hebrew) MYSTERY OF GOD will be over."

Rev. 10:7 But in the days of (Christian Humanitarism) the voice of the seventh angel, (the spirit of human Harmony), when he, (that awakening subconscious apparatus of mind), shall begin to sound (consciously in the thoughts of men), the MYSTERY of God, (to be revealed in phylogenetic memory), should be finished, as he hath informed his servants the prophets (as recorded in scripture).
This came to pass in 1844 when the old began to pass away and the new world began to unfold.

[kofh2u]

This came to pass in 1844 when the old began to pass away and the new world began to unfold.

You have my attention.
Your date is absolutely correct.
Can you edify me in regard to how and why you substantiate this statement?

KOFHY

[Maimonides]

hello mr M,
Thank you for the interesting post and the re-print of the article.

As I read you post I thought about how many times I had heard similar commentary concerning Noah and the many flood myths that could be pointed out in other cultures long befoe Genesis. I was thinking, "So, what is it that mr. M will conclude?"

Will he suggest that the Israelites built their Hebrew Mystery upon the easy and ready vehicle of established and already popular stories?

Will he suggest that the Hebrew Mystery, (I am emphasizing the genre of this writing intentionally), incorporated what was considered to be fact in the more esoteric intent?

Or, will he conclude that Genesis is an academic effort, one of the first, if not the earliest attempt at establishing a Table of Nations. In this matter of Eden, had they merely included tales and legends as a prelude to a more accurate Table which follows. I am reminded by Isaac Asimov's book, The Bible, that he found the genealogies rather on target for such an early and primitive attempt.

Finally, just before I read the paragraph of your conclusion, I wondered if you might infer that Genesis was not the Hebrew Epic, neither is it myth, and yet further, it is not necessarily concerned with fact, though facts fuel interest in it.

It is the Hebrew Mystery, the only complete text of any Mystery to reach us from the ancient world.

The question ought occur to any literary critic of this genre, "What is beneath this open letter to the Profane which is guarded and held secret only for the initiated?

To be more clear: Everything you suggest would insure that the uninitiated reader would be mislead from the true implication. Such readers reasonably would be encouraged, in just your type of analysis, even 3000 years ago. Hadn't this reader already heard, or read a slightly modified version, one perhaps from his own culture or nation which he was more prone to believe more accurate?

Remember, before Christianity, and even today, Jews did not nor do they now encourage foreign proseltyzing. The Torah was not sacred because it was about early paleontology.

YOU POINT:
Through science we can break the Axial Age/Medieval concept of God that has been lamentably all-too pandemic in the Christian faith, and re-discover a spirit of innovation and creativity, a dialectical process of refining and shaping our own spiritual awareness. Realizing the mythological origins of many of the happenings in the Bible is just the first step.

KOFHY:
Yes, we are promised, not necessarily through science, but in "a day of great enlightenment, when knowledge abounds, and men travel freely to and fro," (Dan), that "the (Hebrew) MYSTERY OF GOD will be over."

Rev. 10:7 But in the days of (Christian Humanitarism) the voice of the seventh angel, (the spirit of human Harmony), when he, (that awakening subconscious apparatus of mind), shall begin to sound (consciously in the thoughts of men), the MYSTERY of God, (to be revealed in phylogenetic memory), should be finished, as he hath informed his servants the prophets (as recorded in scripture).
hello, Mr. M (as you so memorably put it, thank you), is in the house.

I do not understand your terminology "Hebrew Mystery." I admit this freely; please explain.

I do not believe the Genesis Myth to be a "cover-up" or monopolization by the elite; peoples in the pre-modern world simply did not have our level of science. I do believe the Genesis stories of creation (there are two, actually; the one in chapter 2 is much older), are very wonderful stories with great truth/values of an esoteric (mystical, supernatural), sort. My great conclusion is simply that through science we do not HAVE to take the mythology literally in the empirical sense (i.e. that it actually occured; the lessons and the wonder are more important by far).

Do you have a problem with science? The past three centuries have seen an unprecedented burgeoning of our scientific awareness (and many attendant problems). Science can be a tool of good or ill. As for spiritual enlightenment, I can recieve that through God and people throughout my life.

Let me get back to you on this later. ~Maimonides

[shunyadragon]

You have my attention.
Your date is absolutely correct.
Can you edify me in regard to how and why you substantiate this statement?

KOFHY
This is one of my favorite prophetic passages.

One May 24, 1844 the first telegraph message was sent from Baltimore to Washington. It read 'What God hath wrought.'

In an ancient city called Sharaz in Persia on the other side of the world a man revealed to an enquiring visitor who sought him out that the 'Judgement Day' and the 'Last Days' had arrived and the old world would pass away and the new Heaven and Earth was unfolding. He was the 'Gate' the Herald of the New Age of humanity.

[kofh2u]

hello, Mr. Maimonides,

First, let me say that I have much more intellectual respect for you
than for most posters here, in that your post conveys both an appreciation for the literature of the bible and an honest open mindness concerning your literary criticism of it.

We differ mostly pertaining to the academics.

That is to say, just what is this text, called the bible, about? I mean, in regard to the immense social changes it has been used to impliment, and those Social Institutions it has been foundation for?

Your statement, below, underscores my point:

"I do not understand your terminology "Hebrew Mystery." I admit this freely; please explain."

A short definition from an encyclopedia hardly does justice to the subject, but does support me and suggest your own further investigation might be interesting.

"Mysteries
Secret cults of the Greco-Roman world. Derived from primitive tribal
ceremonies, mystery religions reached their peak of popularity in Greece in the first three centuries AD. Their members met secretly to share meals and take part in dances and ceremonies, especially initiation rites. The cult of Demeter produced the most famous of the mystery religions, the Eleusinian Mysteries, as well as the Andania mysteries.
Dionysus was worshiped in festivals that included wine, choral singing,
sexual activity, and mime.
The Orphic cult, by contrast, based on sacred writings attributed to
Orpheus, required chastity and abstinence from meat and wine. Mystery cults also attached to Attis, Isis, and Jupiter Dolichenus, among others."

These mysteries, of course, were the Pagan Religions which disappeared after the 3rd century, because Christianity destroyed their Temples and converted tge masses who had been excluded from these societies of the elite and the initiated, ie.... rich and powerful.

That the Hebrew's had a similar secret cult, a power that ruled over them premised upon some special priestly knowledge that granted some great privilege at the expense of the masses is also true.

But, within the scriptures which that secret society of Sadduccee utilized for its own foundation were the seeds to set the masses free. Free of the Jew priesthoods. And, eventually, set the gentile masses free, also, of their Pagan masters.

That this is true can be supported by the clear prediction centuries, before, that it would be so:

Rev. 6:14 And (Astrology) departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every (Pagan religion and secret society) were moved out of their places.

You say"
"I do not believe the Genesis Myth to be a "cover-up" or monopolization by the elite; peoples in the pre-modern world simply did not have our level of science."

KOFHY:
That is exactly what had and is happening today. The ignorant and illiterate were being exploited because "the pre-modern world simply did not have our level of science."

Mr m:
I do believe the Genesis stories of creation (there are two, actually; the one in chapter 2 is much older), are very wonderful stories with great truth/values of an esoteric (mystical, supernatural), sort.

KOFHY:
The Jews today carry forth a reverence and common knowledge of some ancient but lost system tied to their religion which had been once widely known. Their term for it, in the arabic language frim which the name today was derived is "The Qabbalah."

They know it as their own present Kabbalah, a preaching of some rabbi who insist that they have re-discoveried this esoteric art. You may have read that Hollywood, in particular Madonna, has become fascinated with the subject.

The Jewish definition of their word, which is the root of our own word cabala, they will tell you:

"Kabbalah is the Secret Esoteric Knowledge of Israel."

Your own statement suggests you intuitively understand this.

Mr. m:
"My great conclusion is simply that through science we do not HAVE to take the mythology literally in the empirical sense (i.e. that it actually occured; the lessons and the wonder are more important by far)."

KOFHY:
I agre for a number of reasons, probably all quite different from your own.

Mr. m:
Do you have a problem with science?

KOFHY:
I hold credentials in Physics.

Mr. m:
"The past three centuries have seen an unprecedented burgeoning of our scientific awareness (and many attendant problems). Science can be a tool of good or ill."

KOFHY:
Dan. 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words (of the Old Testament), and seal the book (of death and hell), even to (2K4AD), the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, (traveling freely by land, sea, and even air), and knowledge (in an Age of Enlightenment) shall be increased.

Mr. m:
"As for spiritual enlightenment, I can recieve that through God and people throughout my life."

KOFHY:
Rev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars, (the sevenfold spirit of the psyche: Id, Libido, Ego, Anima, Self, Harmony, Superego):
and out of his mouth went a two-edged sword (cutting both secular and theological understandings): and his countenance was as the sun (of
rationality) shineth in his strength (of factual knowledge).

Mr. m:
"Let me get back to you on this later. ~Maimonides"

KOFHY:
Matthew 25:1-10

[Maimonides]

Thank you for your wonderful response/commentary. I appreciate your open-mindedness. As to the "Hebrew Mystery", I did not know at first that you were referring to Kabbalah. I have read a little about this vibrant and beautiful tradition, mainly in Karen Armstrong's highly informative books.

As to your credentials in physics, I see that you undoubtedly have more scientific knowledge than I in that area.

As for the elite amongst the Hebrews, it does not surprise me that groups such as the Sadducees exercised control in the manner that they did. Archaeology has revealed that many were quite wealthy; that they collaborated with the Romans to preserve the despicable status quo in Palestine at the time of Christ does not surprise me. You seem to believe that this is still happening today; I am unsure from your post exactly whom you believe to be responsible, but I entirely agree with you: as a historian I have realized that we are our history. Nothing ever changes. The United States is repeating the mistakes of past empires: Assyria, Rome, Spain... our downfall, I fear, is imminent and inevitable. But I digress. Of course, those in power always manipulate those under them through demagoguery or more overt systems of control: force, religion, etc. That you seem to realize this is a great testament to your understanding.

Forgive my failure to understand from your last post: do you believe the Genesis account to be factually correct? Of course it is true in the esoteric sense, but I mean factually, empirically correct.

Finally, much as I enjoy your insight I do not understand your scriptural anecdote. I personally put little stock in imminent eschatological expectations; people have been predicting the end of the world for far too long for that. Your interpretations of biblical passages and legends are quite engrossing; may I ask where/how you obtained/came to these eschatological conclusions?

Best of wishes, ~Maimonides.

[kofh2u]

Hello, Mr. m,

Maimonides:
Thank you for your wonderful response/commentary. I appreciate your open-mindedness.

KOFHY:
The sentiment is mutual.

Maimonides:
As to the "Hebrew Mystery", I did not know at first that you were referring to Kabbalah. I have read a little about this vibrant and beautiful tradition, mainly in Karen Armstrong's highly informative books.

KOFH:
With great reservation, I mention the Kabblah before any Christian audience.
Though you are a theist, not particularly tuned to the Christian teachings, others reading our posts are often taken back when I discuss this. They are to be informed that, to whatever that esoteric art refers to, today it has been contaminated by the many wild guesses and attempted, but failed, revivals.

Nevertheless, I have many reason, and certain supporting facts, that suggest the Kabbalah was once used by the Kohanim. These were the original Aaronic priests who performed unspecified duties during and after the time of Moses, until @ 990 BC. That was when Torah was canonized, and I believe, actually compiled as a written text to be read by those who displaced the Kohanim. And, thereby replacing the Oral Kabbalah.

By this, it is my contention the Book of Genesis was a dramatic play of sorts. Genesis, before 900 BC, had been presented from memory by these Kohans, (IMO).

The special priesthood of the kohanim is still recognized, even today, and given token recognition by certain functions in the synagogue.


Maimonides:
As for the elite amongst the Hebrews, it does not surprise me that groups such as the Sadducees exercised control in the manner that they did. Archaeology has revealed that many were quite wealthy; that they collaborated with the Romans to preserve the despicable status quo in Palestine at the time of Christ does not surprise me. You seem to believe that this is still happening today;

KOFHY:
Well, yes.
But, not exactly or solely by the religious institutions. We must agree with Marx that religion is the opiate of the working class, but wonder that with the drug culture in America, so is opium the opiate of the working class.

My point is, that religion has lost much of its priestly aristocracy and social influence, but religious organizations, though under siege today, are part of the Social Control mechanism.
Lenin, Castro, all Eastern Europe nations outlawed it for just the reason that it usually supoorts the Status Quo. Communism represented social change.

But, more directly, there are other institutionalized practices which direct the means of production and control distribution. These are the forces I refer to here.

Maimonides:
I am unsure from your post exactly whom you believe to be responsible, but I entirely agree with you: as a historian I have realized that we are our history. Nothing ever changes. The United States is repeating the mistakes of past empires: Assyria, Rome, Spain... our downfall, I fear, is imminent and inevitable.

KOFHY:
Absolutely.
I am lucky to have an expert in this area of knowledge here, talking to me right now.
May I impose upon you, in order to discover what historians might say concerning the idea that Western Culture has experienced a repetitive process by which the early patriarchical society of men is turned into a mattiarchy.

Those who had built up powerful and successful economic systems hardly have been laid to rest in their grave before the spoiled brats of the generations to follow swing the culture towards an ever more prominent matriarchical power.
The hand that rocks the cradle rules the Western World, in embarrassing and obvious contrast to Islam.

What would I hear from the community of historians concerning this opinion of mine?

Maimonides:
Forgive my failure to understand from your last post: do you believe the Genesis account to be factually correct? Of course it is true in the esoteric sense, but I mean factually, empirically correct.

KOFHY:
Yes and no.
I believe that is much more than an account of what we know as true today, scientifically speaking.

Specifically, there is the hint that there must be more to Genesis than we even had imagined up until now.

Either the most amazing coincidence, or the greatest use of intuition ever noted, or some yet esoteric methodology (kabbalah?) accounts for this matter, IMO.

I refer to the fact that, in our sciences which clearly tell us that from the Big Bang to this moment, seven long periods of time have distinctly marked the end of one and the beginning of the next to follow.

This occurs to us by using dating methods and empirical arguments of our own day, we create a Geological and Bilogical Clock of seven Eras of time.

This analogy with scripture, seven "days," might seem at first glance exactly the coincidence I mentioned.
But, I have a suspicion that this first observation, when complemented with others, informs us of something modern man would like to know.

But, now I digress.

Maimonides:
Finally, much as I enjoy your insight I do not understand your scriptural anecdote. I personally put little stock in imminent eschatological expectations; people have been predicting the end of the world for far too long for that. Your interpretations of biblical passages and legends are quite engrossing; may I ask where/how you obtained/came to these eschatological conclusions?

KOFHY:
I do not read the interpretations you refer to as an "eschatology."

I see these scriptures as primarily concerned ultimately with human behavior. Human behavior, of course, is the incremntal chemistry to the secret esoteric knowledge of civilization; i.e., Sociology. Is it not? Not secret, Sociology?

Best of wishes,

[One Bad Pig]

This is one of my favorite prophetic passages.

One May 24, 1844 the first telegraph message was sent from Baltimore to Washington. It read 'What God hath wrought.'

In an ancient city called Sharaz in Persia on the other side of the world a man revealed to an enquiring visitor who sought him out that the 'Judgement Day' and the 'Last Days' had arrived and the old world would pass away and the new Heaven and Earth was unfolding. He was the 'Gate' the Herald of the New Age of humanity.
Oh, right. The Bab. In what way is that a prophetic passage?

[kofh2u]

Oh, right. The Bab. In what way is that a prophetic passage?

Yes.
I am not sure why he says what he does.

Also, he is correct about the date, give or take a lkttle.

Then, I am amazed that he said this was the advent of the second coming especially because he makes no sense how it is correct, 1844.
Like a savant, he has not explained the way but he has told us the truth!

[kofh2u]

This is one of my favorite prophetic passages.

One May 24, 1844 the first telegraph message was sent from Baltimore to Washington. It read 'What God hath wrought.'

In an ancient city called Sharaz in Persia on the other side of the world a man revealed to an enquiring visitor who sought him out that the 'Judgement Day' and the 'Last Days' had arrived and the old world would pass away and the new Heaven and Earth was unfolding. He was the 'Gate' the Herald of the New Age of humanity.


The return of the seventh Imam?
Perhaps the return of the twelveth Imam?

The "enquiring visitor" ? Ayatollah K?

Explain in detail.

[kofh2u]

This is one of my favorite prophetic passages.

One May 24, 1844 the first telegraph message was sent from Baltimore to Washington. It read 'What God hath wrought.'

In an ancient city called Sharaz in Persia on the other side of the world a man revealed to an enquiring visitor who sought him out that the 'Judgement Day' and the 'Last Days' had arrived and the old world would pass away and the new Heaven and Earth was unfolding. He was the 'Gate' the Herald of the New Age of humanity.

"He was the 'Gate'"...

The return of the seventh Imam?

Perhaps the return of the twelveth Imam?

The "enquiring visitor" ? Ayatollah K?

Explain in detail.

[shunyadragon]

Oh, right. The Bab. In what way is that a prophetic passage?
It relates to a prophecy in the OT. I will elaborate further later. A lot of stuff happened in 1844 and after. For example the prophecies were convincing enough that many in the US, ie Millerites, also expected the prophecies to be fulilled. There is more corraboration of expectation from many all over the world in many religions surounding the two important dates, 1844 and 1863.

It was not only the Bab, the Gate, forerunner to Baha'u'llah that picked the date, but many others also did this independently.

[shunyadragon]

"He was the 'Gate'"...

The return of the seventh Imam?

Perhaps the return of the twelveth Imam?

The "enquiring visitor" ? Ayatollah K?

Explain in detail.
The enquiring visitor was Mulla Husayn. He was on a quest to fulfill a dream and find a man he did not know.

This actually another topic. I will open a thread in comparative religions on this topic and all of you may flail away.

[kofh2u]

It relates to a prophecy in the OT. I will elaborate further later. A lot of stuff happened in 1844 and after. For example the prophecies were convincing enough that many in the US, ie Millerites, also expected the prophecies to be fulilled. There is more corraboration of expectation from many all over the world in many religions surounding the two important dates, 1844 and 1863.

It was not only the Bab, the Gate, forerunner to Baha'u'llah that picked the date, but many others also did this independently.

The "millerite" of course admitted to gross disallusionment. They were sort of the "kool-aiddrinkers" of the 19th century. The 20th century "Stargaters" went with a Dr Kervorian coctail.
WACO was pretty close to 2k00 with a real Book of Revelation purification with fire and brimstone exit.

Perhaps the Bab you refer to has the key to hell and death?

Rev. 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

[shunyadragon]

The "millerite" of course admitted to gross disallusionment. They were sort of the "kool-aiddrinkers" of the 19th century. The 20th century "Stargaters" went with a Dr Kervorian coctail.
WACO was pretty close to 2k00 with a real Book of Revelation purification with fire and brimstone exit.

Perhaps the Bab you refer to has the key to hell and death?

Rev. 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Of course the Millerites faded, but they made the same predictions independently as the Baha'i Faith. I do think they could be called the cool-aid rinkers. They mostly evolved into the other 'Millenial faiths' like JW and Mormons, whose founders also had prophetic visions at the time.

The Baha'i Faith has not faded away.

Not sure of the meaning since Revelation was a bad dream.

The symbolism may have many meanings. Symbolically, I could conclude that the one who has the keys has judgement over life and death. With the advent of the new age the new knowledge that was released was a sword with two edges. One edge heals and the other can destroy.

The cults are floatsum in the tide. In the Baha'i writings it said that communism would also pass as floatsum in the tide.

[Maimonides]

Hello, Mr. m,

Maimonides:
Thank you for your wonderful response/commentary. I appreciate your open-mindedness.

KOFHY:
The sentiment is mutual.

Maimonides:
As to the "Hebrew Mystery", I did not know at first that you were referring to Kabbalah. I have read a little about this vibrant and beautiful tradition, mainly in Karen Armstrong's highly informative books.

KOFH:
With great reservation, I mention the Kabblah before any Christian audience.
Though you are a theist, not particularly tuned to the Christian teachings, others reading our posts are often taken back when I discuss this. They are to be informed that, to whatever that esoteric art refers to, today it has been contaminated by the many wild guesses and attempted, but failed, revivals.

Nevertheless, I have many reason, and certain supporting facts, that suggest the Kabbalah was once used by the Kohanim. These were the original Aaronic priests who performed unspecified duties during and after the time of Moses, until @ 990 BC. That was when Torah was canonized, and I believe, actually compiled as a written text to be read by those who displaced the Kohanim. And, thereby replacing the Oral Kabbalah.

By this, it is my contention the Book of Genesis was a dramatic play of sorts. Genesis, before 900 BC, had been presented from memory by these Kohans, (IMO).

The special priesthood of the kohanim is still recognized, even today, and given token recognition by certain functions in the synagogue.


Maimonides:
As for the elite amongst the Hebrews, it does not surprise me that groups such as the Sadducees exercised control in the manner that they did. Archaeology has revealed that many were quite wealthy; that they collaborated with the Romans to preserve the despicable status quo in Palestine at the time of Christ does not surprise me. You seem to believe that this is still happening today;

KOFHY:
Well, yes.
But, not exactly or solely by the religious institutions. We must agree with Marx that religion is the opiate of the working class, but wonder that with the drug culture in America, so is opium the opiate of the working class.

My point is, that religion has lost much of its priestly aristocracy and social influence, but religious organizations, though under siege today, are part of the Social Control mechanism.
Lenin, Castro, all Eastern Europe nations outlawed it for just the reason that it usually supoorts the Status Quo. Communism represented social change.

But, more directly, there are other institutionalized practices which direct the means of production and control distribution. These are the forces I refer to here.

Maimonides:
I am unsure from your post exactly whom you believe to be responsible, but I entirely agree with you: as a historian I have realized that we are our history. Nothing ever changes. The United States is repeating the mistakes of past empires: Assyria, Rome, Spain... our downfall, I fear, is imminent and inevitable.

KOFHY:
Absolutely.
I am lucky to have an expert in this area of knowledge here, talking to me right now.
May I impose upon you, in order to discover what historians might say concerning the idea that Western Culture has experienced a repetitive process by which the early patriarchical society of men is turned into a mattiarchy.

Those who had built up powerful and successful economic systems hardly have been laid to rest in their grave before the spoiled brats of the generations to follow swing the culture towards an ever more prominent matriarchical power.
The hand that rocks the cradle rules the Western World, in embarrassing and obvious contrast to Islam.

What would I hear from the community of historians concerning this opinion of mine?

Maimonides:
Forgive my failure to understand from your last post: do you believe the Genesis account to be factually correct? Of course it is true in the esoteric sense, but I mean factually, empirically correct.

KOFHY:
Yes and no.
I believe that is much more than an account of what we know as true today, scientifically speaking.

Specifically, there is the hint that there must be more to Genesis than we even had imagined up until now.

Either the most amazing coincidence, or the greatest use of intuition ever noted, or some yet esoteric methodology (kabbalah?) accounts for this matter, IMO.

I refer to the fact that, in our sciences which clearly tell us that from the Big Bang to this moment, seven long periods of time have distinctly marked the end of one and the beginning of the next to follow.

This occurs to us by using dating methods and empirical arguments of our own day, we create a Geological and Bilogical Clock of seven Eras of time.

This analogy with scripture, seven "days," might seem at first glance exactly the coincidence I mentioned.
But, I have a suspicion that this first observation, when complemented with others, informs us of something modern man would like to know.

But, now I digress.

Maimonides:
Finally, much as I enjoy your insight I do not understand your scriptural anecdote. I personally put little stock in imminent eschatological expectations; people have been predicting the end of the world for far too long for that. Your interpretations of biblical passages and legends are quite engrossing; may I ask where/how you obtained/came to these eschatological conclusions?

KOFHY:
I do not read the interpretations you refer to as an "eschatology."

I see these scriptures as primarily concerned ultimately with human behavior. Human behavior, of course, is the incremntal chemistry to the secret esoteric knowledge of civilization; i.e., Sociology. Is it not? Not secret, Sociology?

Best of wishes,
Thank you for this latest in what is rapidly turning into the most fascinating correspondence I have yet had on this site! You have given me much food for thought.

First, as concerns the matter of religious organizations and institutions: your insight is piercing. I think, concerning the Soviet Union, that the actual substance of religion was replaced with a new method of control entirely modeled on the old. In truth it's the worst of ironies: as bad as things were under organized churches supported by despotic regimes, in Russia at least they got much worse. Of course, drugs are on the upsurge today; in the wake of secularization perhaps it's somewhat to be expected (sadly).

Another thought on the religious thing: as regards the UFO phenomena and the many conspiracy theories surrounding it, one might well make a case for this as a form of "new mythology" (and not in the best sense, I'm afraid). That is, in the times of old myths served to explain events, to entertain, to cultivate a sense of wonder... functions I see now usurped by the Cult of the Flying Saucer. This is ironic, surely.

As to a matriarchy... your point is well-conceded. I think echoes of this could be found even in the Greco-Roman Mediterranean. That Islam today is rather embarrasingly backward (in many countries) on the issue of women's rights is a sad reversal; as I have tried to communicate in other threads, Muhammad (the prophet) actually valued women's opinions and guaranteed them rights (women were actually to be allowed to divorce their husbands if they failed to achieve sexual pleasure). Polygamous marriages, so scandalous to the West, were permitted within strict limits; apparently Muhammad wished to limit the situation as it was in his time, when polygamy verged on licentiousness.

I am fascinated by your interpretations of Genesis; thank you for clearing that up for me. Many people seem unable to concede anything but a literal, narrow interpretation of Genesis, to my never-ending frustration. Finally, as to eschatology (knowledge of the end times; a culture's beliefs about the afterlife or the end of the world), perhaps I misunderstood. Once again, I must agree with you that the lesson is more important than prophetic expectation.

Thank you and salaam alaykum (peace be with you), ~Maimonides

[kofh2u]

shunyadragon:

Of course the Millerites faded, but they made the same predictions independently as the Baha'i Faith.
They mostly evolved into the other 'Millenial faiths' like JW and Mormons, whose founders also had prophetic visions at the time.

KOFHY:
Actually, the millerites who continued on became the founders of the Seven Day Adventists.

shunyadragon:
The Baha'i Faith has not faded away.

KOFHY:
Did these people expect the appearance of the messiah?
Did he appear?
Who is he if so?
If not, as the Adventists reazed, what excuse wa made for the misreading of the prophecy?

shunyadragon:
Not sure of the meaning since Revelation was a bad dream.

KOFHY:
Hahahaaa...
No.
Revelation is support for the validity of the "key to scripture.

A "key idea" and an actual, tangible, concrete key-like "device" will/is/has been found. It is described as a literary contrivance in the Torah. It is referred to as the "hidden manna."

Rev. 2:17 He that hath an ear, (listen to this clear meaning), let him hear, (not just listen!), what the Spirit, (the Sevenfold Psyche), saith unto the churches, (which are the evolving body of Christianity); To him that overcometh (the dogma of ligion's misleading interpretations),... will I give to eat of the hidden manna,...

shunyadragon:
The symbolism may have many meanings. Symbolically, I could conclude that the one who has the keys has judgement over life and death.

KOFHY:
Logically, the matters of hell and death refer to the universal and characteristic human preoccupation with these concepts.

The key to these ideas (hell, death, life after death) is an idea introduced in Torah.

The key helps explained what the bible means, like in Ezekiel 1, 10, 37. The key to understanding death and everlasting life is itself supported in what we are told in Revelation.
So, Revelation is an important book.

The "key" is also an actual mechanism useful to the interpretation of the Hebrew scriptures in general.

But, this "key idea" opens the issue of death, life after death, even punishments and karmas, as it concerns all religions.

shunyadragon:
With the advent of the new age, the new knowledge that was released was a sword...

KOFHY:
Yes!
The mantra of the new age is:

Rev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars, (the sevenfold
spirit of the psyche: Id, Libido, Ego, Anima, Self, Harmony, Superego):
and out of his mouth went a two-edged sword (cutting both secular and theological understandings): and his countenance was as the sun (of
rationality) shineth in his strength (of factual knowledge).

shunyadragon:
...with two edges. One edge heals and the other can destroy.

KOFHY:
Absolutely true!

It explains where the "spirit world really is.... "the kingdom of God is within"....

It will heal us by introduction of a totally new way of understanding ourselves, our institutions, our societies, our religious doctrines, and more.

Rev. 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, (explain the meaning of these Hebrew scriptures), Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the lamb (who opens the seven seals). And he saith unto me, These, (the psychological superimpositions), are the true sayings of God.

shunyadragon:
The cults are floatsum in the tide. In the Baha'i writings it said that communism would also pass as floatsum in the tide.

KOFHY:
Perhaps, but their is no more ancient a state of communism than in the military organizations of every nation. These men work according to ability and are paid according to need... plus strips for social status, of course.

[shunyadragon]

shunyadragon:

Of course the Millerites faded, but they made the same predictions independently as the Baha'i Faith.
They mostly evolved into the other 'Millenial faiths' like JW and Mormons, whose founders also had prophetic visions at the time.

KOFHY:
Actually, the millerites who continued on became the founders of the Seven Day Adventists.I include SDAs as Christian Millenialists as the same as the others. There were others that I will refer to in the prophecy thread.

KOFHY:
Did these people expect the appearance of the messiah?
Did he appear?
Who is he if so?
If not, as the Adventists reazed, what excuse wa made for the misreading of the prophecy?Baha'u'llah is the messiah in the Baha'i Faith. He is the expected one. If you follow the Baha'i Prophecy thread in comparitive Religions section I will explain how he fulfilled the prophecies of the world religions.

Rev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars, (the sevenfold
spirit of the psyche: Id, Libido, Ego, Anima, Self, Harmony, Superego):
and out of his mouth went a two-edged sword (cutting both secular and theological understandings): and his countenance was as the sun (of
rationality) shineth in his strength (of factual knowledge).I consider the book of Revelation of have layered and possibly multiple meanings. I can be considered to be one of the 'keys'.

shunyadragon:
...with two edges. One edge heals and the other can destroy.

KOFHY:
Absolutely true!

It explains where the "spirit world really is.... "the kingdom of God is within"....

It will heal us by introduction of a totally new way of understanding ourselves, our institutions, our societies, our religious doctrines, and more. Like God the Kingdom of god is within and without. The Kingdom of God is . . .

Perhaps, but their is no more ancient a state of communism than in the military organizations of every nation. These men work according to ability and are paid according to need... plus strips for social status, of course.The military would actually not qualify since it lack an economic frame of reference. The structure is and always has been a social institution with the purpose of waging war. It may be called a form of communalism.

The most recent and only truely successful communist state was the Panama Canal Zone, which faded for political reasons and not economic. It was actually very successful.

[kofh2u]

Maimonides:
Thank you for this latest in what is rapidly turning into the most fascinating correspondence I have yet had on this site!

You have given me much food for thought.

KOFHY:
Perhaps your reaction to my point of view is attributible the fact that you have an open mind on the subject of religion, in general, and a critical eye, specifically when reading Genesis and comparing the literal with reality. That is where I first began myself.

Maimonides:
First, as concerns the matter of religious organizations and institutions: your insight is piercing. I think, concerning the Soviet Union, that the actual substance of religion was replaced with a new method of control entirely modeled on the old. In truth it's the worst of ironies: as bad as things were under organized churches supported by despotic regimes, in Russia at least they got much worse.

KOFHY:
I agree, but would suggest the complicity of State and Church was the reverse, i.e.; despotic regimes supported by organized churches.

It is a small difference seemingly, but in Arab nations today, the way you expressed the power heirarchy, seems more correct. The despots tip-toe around the mullahs.

In Western societies, even our own, it seems the other way around. However, the church is reactionary to change, so the Status Quo finds security in tolerating and encouraging it.

Maimonides:
Of course, drugs are on the upsurge today; in the wake of secularization perhaps it's somewhat to be expected (sadly).

KOFHY:
I wonder what you might say, from a historical/philosopical point of view, about the rise in hedonism, historically, as a precursor to the cominb failure of the economic system, espdcially as it concerns Western Empires.

Maimonides:
As to a matriarchy... your point is well-conceded. I think echoes of this could be found even in the Greco-Roman Mediterranean.

KOFHY:
Agreed.
More than agreed, I believe that pre-chriistian Roman was intensely Stoic in its philosophy.
Stoicism seems to me very much a feminine perspective on life. It recommends withdrawal from pleasurable activities, the consequences of which might lead to pain. I am convinced that the universal superimposition of Christian pacificism upon the ready Stoicism of the empire explains the rapid transformation from a hedonistic paganism to a Universal Catholicism. Along with this momentum was th tendency to swing the whole of Western culture toward the matriarchical side of the pendulum.

Maimonides:
That Islam today is rather embarrasingly backward (in many countries) on the issue of women's rights is a sad reversal; as I have tried to communicate in other threads, Muhammad (the prophet) actually valued women's opinions and guaranteed them rights (women were actually to be allowed to divorce their husbands if they failed to achieve sexual pleasure).

KOFH:
I have read this perspective.

Maimonides:
Polygamous marriages, so scandalous to the West, were permitted within strict limits; apparently Muhammad wished to limit the situation as it was in his time, when polygamy verged on licentiousness.

KOFHY:
There is much to support the argument that Christ recommended we not marry at all. And, there are direct statements in scripture to call second marriages adultery.

However, in practice, I see little difference between the polygamy of Islam and multiple but separated couplings prevalent in our present western culture.
On the hand of the Moslem community, men continue to live with their "mistakes," while in "Christian" communities, men pay for them by providing separate quarters through allimony. True?

Maimonides:
I am fascinated by your interpretations of Genesis; thank you for clearing that up for me. Many people seem unable to concede anything but a literal, narrow interpretation of Genesis, to my never-ending frustration.

KOFHY:
It is very encouraging to read what you say here. I never cease to wonder why a synthesis is so long coming, with atheistic ridicule on one side and staunch literalism on the other. The Creationists asks us to ignor or demean Science, while the atheistic community utilizes such backeardness to demean the scriptures. They attack the messengers of literalism and the message. But, it would seem fairness ought simply suggest we look for a new rational concerning our understanding of these ancient writings. That is what I have been doing.

To me, this is an empirical approach, one akin to what we do in svience.

Consider the similarity with applying the Scientific Method, here, with these writings.

1) We have differences of opinion, hypothesis we might call them. These hypothesis are now expressed by many denominations and the secular community, also.

2) As with any empirical approach, certain axioms underly initial ideas, hypothesis which would be acceptable. Here, Truth is one of these axioms. The writings are premised upon the promise that, in time, we shall findvthey report the truth.

3) A detailed list of incompatibilities withnwhat wevunderstand to bevtrue is set down. These include items such as:
Life after death
Creationism of Genesis
Floods of inconceivable proportions
Exodus of unbelievable size
Arks which can hold every species of animal life
Evil Spirits existing in an unseen dimension
Hidden "manna"
Iron rod of rulership
Chicken of Adam before the egg of Modern Homo sapiens
Women manifested from a human rib

So on. The scientist would continue then formulate Hypothesis that would thread all these together in one badic idea. That hypothesis would then be subject to theorizing about what might be further implied.

I cut this short, perhaps I made my point.

Maimonides:
Finally, as to eschatology (knowledge of the end times; a culture's beliefs about the afterlife or the end of the world), perhaps I misunderstood.

KOFHY:
We must talk further here concerning what you think on this.

Maimonides:
Once again, I must agree with you that the lesson is more important than prophetic expectation.

KOFHY:
Thank you for the time and reflective consideration of all this of which speak. I find the whole Gordian Knot of scripture and interesting subject which demands much research into your field of history, and so many other area that are illuminating in themselvrs, language, literature, psychology, philosophy, etc.

Thank you for the stimulating discussion!

[Maimonides]

Maimonides:
Thank you for this latest in what is rapidly turning into the most fascinating correspondence I have yet had on this site!

You have given me much food for thought.

KOFHY:
Perhaps your reaction to my point of view is attributible the fact that you have an open mind on the subject of religion, in general, and a critical eye, specifically when reading Genesis and comparing the literal with reality. That is where I first began myself.

Maimonides:
First, as concerns the matter of religious organizations and institutions: your insight is piercing. I think, concerning the Soviet Union, that the actual substance of religion was replaced with a new method of control entirely modeled on the old. In truth it's the worst of ironies: as bad as things were under organized churches supported by despotic regimes, in Russia at least they got much worse.

KOFHY:
I agree, but would suggest the complicity of State and Church was the reverse, i.e.; despotic regimes supported by organized churches.

It is a small difference seemingly, but in Arab nations today, the way you expressed the power heirarchy, seems more correct. The despots tip-toe around the mullahs.

In Western societies, even our own, it seems the other way around. However, the church is reactionary to change, so the Status Quo finds security in tolerating and encouraging it.

Maimonides:
Of course, drugs are on the upsurge today; in the wake of secularization perhaps it's somewhat to be expected (sadly).

KOFHY:
I wonder what you might say, from a historical/philosopical point of view, about the rise in hedonism, historically, as a precursor to the cominb failure of the economic system, espdcially as it concerns Western Empires.

Maimonides:
As to a matriarchy... your point is well-conceded. I think echoes of this could be found even in the Greco-Roman Mediterranean.

KOFHY:
Agreed.
More than agreed, I believe that pre-chriistian Roman was intensely Stoic in its philosophy.
Stoicism seems to me very much a feminine perspective on life. It recommends withdrawal from pleasurable activities, the consequences of which might lead to pain. I am convinced that the universal superimposition of Christian pacificism upon the ready Stoicism of the empire explains the rapid transformation from a hedonistic paganism to a Universal Catholicism. Along with this momentum was th tendency to swing the whole of Western culture toward the matriarchical side of the pendulum.

Maimonides:
That Islam today is rather embarrasingly backward (in many countries) on the issue of women's rights is a sad reversal; as I have tried to communicate in other threads, Muhammad (the prophet) actually valued women's opinions and guaranteed them rights (women were actually to be allowed to divorce their husbands if they failed to achieve sexual pleasure).

KOFH:
I have read this perspective.

Maimonides:
Polygamous marriages, so scandalous to the West, were permitted within strict limits; apparently Muhammad wished to limit the situation as it was in his time, when polygamy verged on licentiousness.

KOFHY:
There is much to support the argument that Christ recommended we not marry at all. And, there are direct statements in scripture to call second marriages adultery.

However, in practice, I see little difference between the polygamy of Islam and multiple but separated couplings prevalent in our present western culture.
On the hand of the Moslem community, men continue to live with their "mistakes," while in "Christian" communities, men pay for them by providing separate quarters through allimony. True?

Maimonides:
I am fascinated by your interpretations of Genesis; thank you for clearing that up for me. Many people seem unable to concede anything but a literal, narrow interpretation of Genesis, to my never-ending frustration.

KOFHY:
It is very encouraging to read what you say here. I never cease to wonder why a synthesis is so long coming, with atheistic ridicule on one side and staunch literalism on the other. The Creationists asks us to ignor or demean Science, while the atheistic community utilizes such backeardness to demean the scriptures. They attack the messengers of literalism and the message. But, it would seem fairness ought simply suggest we look for a new rational concerning our understanding of these ancient writings. That is what I have been doing.

To me, this is an empirical approach, one akin to what we do in svience.

Consider the similarity with applying the Scientific Method, here, with these writings.

1) We have differences of opinion, hypothesis we might call them. These hypothesis are now expressed by many denominations and the secular community, also.

2) As with any empirical approach, certain axioms underly initial ideas, hypothesis which would be acceptable. Here, Truth is one of these axioms. The writings are premised upon the promise that, in time, we shall findvthey report the truth.

3) A detailed list of incompatibilities withnwhat wevunderstand to bevtrue is set down. These include items such as:
Life after death
Creationism of Genesis
Floods of inconceivable proportions
Exodus of unbelievable size
Arks which can hold every species of animal life
Evil Spirits existing in an unseen dimension
Hidden "manna"
Iron rod of rulership
Chicken of Adam before the egg of Modern Homo sapiens
Women manifested from a human rib

So on. The scientist would continue then formulate Hypothesis that would thread all these together in one badic idea. That hypothesis would then be subject to theorizing about what might be further implied.

I cut this short, perhaps I made my point.

Maimonides:
Finally, as to eschatology (knowledge of the end times; a culture's beliefs about the afterlife or the end of the world), perhaps I misunderstood.

KOFHY:
We must talk further here concerning what you think on this.

Maimonides:
Once again, I must agree with you that the lesson is more important than prophetic expectation.

KOFHY:
Thank you for the time and reflective consideration of all this of which speak. I find the whole Gordian Knot of scripture and interesting subject which demands much research into your field of history, and so many other area that are illuminating in themselvrs, language, literature, psychology, philosophy, etc.

Thank you for the stimulating discussion!
Kofhy, sorry this has been so long in coming... anyway here goes:

As regards hedonism... I have read of ample historical precedent to support your thesis. Generally the pattern is that a new power bursts on the scene, say the Persians, who conquer the more affluent Lydians, Babylonians, etc. Now the Persians are able to conquer them in part because they are younger, fiercer, more militaristic and vigorous (and usually the older empires have their own problems: inflexible institutions, maybe civil war, poverty, internal conflicts and the like), and because they have some military advantage (Persians were great horsemen and archers).

So now we're at the close of the sixth century B.C.: Persia rules the greatest empire ever seen. Period. At that point in time (Persia's zenith), there had never been a greater or larger empire, anywhere in the world. So now the Persians have all kinds of wealth they didn't have before. And they start to party. And maybe the rich get richer and the poor get poorer (this was very true of both Rome and Assyria; I'm less sure about Persia to be honest); and of course the rich are very hedonistic. Martial vigor is lost as internal problems beset and weaken the empire until Alexander the Great appears on the horizon to bring once-proud Persia to her knees.

Similar parallels can be drawn with Rome, Assyria, Mongolia... in all cases I think it's really a combination of things culminating in the conquerors becoming weak internally and hence vulnerable externally.

Now, concerning marriage... "serial monogamy" I'd have to call it in the West, really, and the Islamic world is rather shocked by it. Read "Guests of the Sheikh" by Elizabeth Warnock Fernea. She lived in a rural southern Iraqi village for a time back in the fifties; very interesting read. Polygamy was practiced but infrequently and the local people were scandalized by some of our marital and familial practices. For example, the women were shocked that Elizabeth was abroad without her mother or any of the other woman from her house.

As to the Bible... thank you, your views are heartening. I was raised in an inerrantist matrix, but find it a sublime case of circular reasoning. One simply cannot arrange the universe about one's pre-concieved notions (although people try). I love the Bible as a work of great literature; I consider myself a Christian but maintain a more critical approach. As regards eschatology, my maxim is "I'll believe it when I see it" and I suppose I'll understand it too. I'm an agnostic in that I don't think it can be known until then. What if all of our beliefs about the afterlife are based on egocentric circular reasoning? I don't think so but then I can't really be sure until I get "there."

Many thanks and best regards, ~Maimonides.

[Donotbeafraid]

Does any one apart from Kofh2u and Shuny actually understand this thread?

[kofh2u]

Maimonides:

Kofhy, sorry this has been so long in coming... anyway here goes:

Maimonides:
As regards hedonism... I have read of ample historical precedent to support your thesis. Generally the pattern is that a new power bursts on the scene, say the Persians, who conquer the more affluent Lydians, Babylonians, etc. Now the Persians are able to conquer them in part because they are younger, fiercer, more militaristic and vigorous (and usually the older empires have their own problems: inflexible institutions, maybe civil war, poverty, internal conflicts and the like), and because they have some military advantage (Persians were great horsemen and archers).

So now we're at the close of the sixth century B.C.: Persia rules the greatest empire ever seen. Period. At that point in time (Persia's zenith), there had never been a greater or larger empire, anywhere in the world. So now the Persians have all kinds of wealth they didn't have before. And they start to party. And maybe the rich get richer and the poor get poorer (this was very true of both Rome and Assyria; I'm less sure about Persia to be honest); and of course the rich are very hedonistic. Martial vigor is lost as internal problems beset and weaken the empire until Alexander the Great appears on the horizon to bring once-proud Persia to her knees.

Similar parallels can be drawn with Rome, Assyria, Mongolia... in all cases I think it's really a combination of things culminating in the conquerors becoming weak internally and hence vulnerable externally.


KOFHY:
Well, I must say that I welcome your opinion, especially, as an expert in the field of historical oversight.

Certainly others can/will/have debated what you say.
My experience has been that people argue this interpretation of rise and fall of empire because it becomes personal, concerning their political and cultural behavior.

If success ruins more societies than failure, and we, ourselves, today, are extremely successful, then the hand writing is on the wall.

We would need to accept this theory, and radically change our social attitudes, or, debate it, and see what happens in the future.

I am reminded that you historians, I think, originated an expression which basically said we learn nothing from history, so we are doomed to repeat it?

I believe the bible writers understood that this is the nature of the beast, Modern Homo sapiens.

Your comments support the possibility that their message, below, sent forward in scripture, was carefully interwoven into the fabric of the common man's consciousness. The hope is the masses may become as informed as yourself!
A widespread faith in your analysis would be needed for any behavioral antidote for a social sickness that has set back progress again and again.

Consider what you have said and this interpretation of the bible. And, remember that it is a book that the religious people call the Truth:

"So he carried me away (in the spirit of thought), into the
wilderness (of my imagination) and I saw (as if) a woman, (those who
have Instittutionized a system of sexual seduction into a failed
matrimony), sit upon a scarlet coloured beast (of a brazen and corrupt sexually misdirected economic system), full of names of (Pagan) blasphemy, having seven heads (which existed in (1) Egypt, (2) Assyria, (3) Babylon, (4) Persia/Mede, (5) Greece, (6) Rome (7) the whole of Western Culture to follow) having ten horns upon these seven heads:
(1. Anarchy, 2. Lombard-Vandalism, 3. Papacy, 4. Charlemagne, 5. Holy
Roman Empire, 6. Italy, 7. Spain, 8. France, 9. Britain, 10. Nazi
Germany.)"
(Rev. 17:3)


Maimonides:
Now, concerning marriage... "serial monogamy" I'd have to call it in the West, really, and the Islamic world is rather shocked by it. Read "Guests of the Sheikh" by Elizabeth Warnock Fernea. She lived in a rural southern Iraqi village for a time back in the fifties; very interesting read. Polygamy was practiced but infrequently and the local people were scandalized by some of our marital and familial practices. For example, the women were shocked that Elizabeth was abroad without her mother or any of the other woman from her house.

KOFHY:
Interesting. The Islamic repression of social intercourse between men and women stands in stark contrast to the unbound western, Modern Woman which emerged in the Renaissance from a similar repression, one instituted by different means.

This also finds expression in scripture. I suspect that what scripture is recounting for us is a sociological experiment.
My thoughts need more space, but the idea essentially is that Christianity was the antithesis of the hedonism certain to come to Roman.

"And he laid hold on the dragon, (the subtle cultural system
of exploitive sexual mores), that old serpent (cultural Paganism), which is the devil (of sexual license), and (libidinal lustfulness of) satan, and bound him, the dragon, a thousand (1000) Years throughout (The DARK AGES),"
Rev. 20:2

Maimonides:
As to the Bible... thank you, your views are heartening.

KOFHY:
This is good hear.
Most people are trapped in a paradigm that confuses them into believing they thoroughly understand the bible, or one that convinces them the bible can not be understood at all.

Maimonides:
I was raised in an inerrantist matrix, but find it a sublime case of circular reasoning. One simply cannot arrange the universe about one's pre-concieved notions (although people try).

KOFHY:
Absolutely.
Mass Dissociative Disorder prevails. This is evidenced by the Christian denominationalism that prevails today. The twelve major Christian denominations today are evidence of this characteristic human behavior: to observe from a dozen different perspectives.
(More on this later, because this is key to a genetic theory of history.)

Maimonides:
I love the Bible as a work of great literature;

KOFHY:
Ah, yes... the proof lies in the fact that this "literature" has reached us more or less in tact, at least in comparision to other works.
But, if these writings are, what I hope to convince you that they may be, then the Psychology of the writers was as accurate as was their Sociology. They understood how to create that vehicle, the bible, which carried their words to us.

Maimonides:
I consider myself a Christian but maintain a more critical approach.

KOFHY:
Hmmm.... I am reminded of Daniel,..
" And they that be wise (in those end times of 2K4) shall shine as the brightness of the firmament;"

Maimonides:
As regards eschatology, my maxim is "I'll believe it when I see it" and I suppose I'll understand it too. I'm an agnostic in that I don't think it can be known until then. What if all of our beliefs about the afterlife are based on egocentric circular reasoning? I don't think so but then I can't really be sure until I get "there."

KOFHY:
Well, I think you are looking at scripture in exactly the way it was intended that sane people ought.

What we are going to find is that human understanding, science, discoveries, modern insights into the Reality we live in,... these truths will confirm what we have been told we ought take on faith,... that is,... that scripture is saying the same thing.

Too many people have it twisted.

They believe scripture says we are to defend ancient ideas pertaining to fallacious and unreasonable interpretations. They swallow archaic "camel" size metaphysics while attacking every little "gnat" size speculation in a reasonable understanding.

Rev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars, (the sevenfold
spirit of the psyche: Id, Libido, Ego, Anima, Self, Harmony, Superego):


My pleasure to interact with you here.
kofhy

[sprky777]

Very interesting thread.

only one point to add;
...There is much to support the argument that Christ recommended we not marry at all. And, there are direct statements in scripture to call second marriages adultery.

However, in practice, I see little difference between the polygamy of Islam and multiple but separated couplings prevalent in our present western culture.
On the hand of the Moslem community, men continue to live with their "mistakes," while in "Christian" communities, men pay for them by providing separate quarters through allimony. True?
A man may not leave his first wife to marry another. In a polygamous marriage, a second wife is added to the first. It does not meet the definition of adultery.

[kofh2u]

Very interesting thread.

only one point to add;

A man may not leave his first wife to marry another. In a polygamous marriage, a second wife is added to the first. It does not meet the definition of adultery.


I apologize if it "sounded" like a comparison between polygamous marriages and western style, no-fault, divorce/re-marriage.

I see them both rather the same in the sense of the economic relation. Support/alimony and separation in one case provides the same roof over the head of a harem.

Certainly, the mechanics of the institution can not be the complaint of Christ.

Rev. 17:4 And the woman, (symbolizing those who have Institutionized a system of sexual seduction into a failed matrimony), was arrayed in (psychologically recognized hues of) purple and scarlet colour (associated by statistically validate color choices for women), and decked with gold
and precious stones and pearls (of her courtships and divorces), having a golden cup in her hand, (a sacrimental place in the order of
religion), full of abominations (of abortions, STD, gay marriage), and
the filthiness of her (sins in adolescence and her numerous) fornications (before choosing the victim of her marriage):

[rogero]

I apologize if it "sounded" like a comparison between polygamous marriages and western style, no-fault, divorce/re-marriage.

I see them both rather the same in the sense of the economic relation. Support/alimony and separation in one case provides the same roof over the head of a harem.

Certainly, the mechanics of the institution can not be the complaint of Christ.

Rev. 17:4 And the woman, (symbolizing those who have Institutionized a system of sexual seduction into a failed matrimony), was arrayed in (psychologically recognized hues of) purple and scarlet colour (associated by statistically validate color choices for women), and decked with gold
and precious stones and pearls (of her courtships and divorces), having a golden cup in her hand, (a sacrimental place in the order of
religion), full of abominations (of abortions, STD, gay marriage), and
the filthiness of her (sins in adolescence and her numerous) fornications (before choosing the victim of her marriage):


For anyone interested in a discussion of Kofhy's curious Bible interpretation, please check out this (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39912) link.

R

[sprky777]

kofh2u:I see them both rather the same in the sense of the economic relation. Support/alimony and separation in one case provides the same roof over the head of a harem. I understand. Even though both have remarkable similarities, it is odd that the choice of divorce/remarriage is so readily accepted in western Christian society and responsible polygyny is not.

[shunyadragon]

I understand. Even though both have remarkable similarities, it is odd that the choice of divorce/remarriage is so readily accepted in western Christian society and responsible polygyny is not.
In most cultures of the world there is a natural evolution toward monogamy and unfortunately the acceptance of divorce and remarriage. This could be an interesting topic on it's own for discussion.

[kofh2u]

I understand. Even though both have remarkable similarities, it is odd that the choice of divorce/remarriage is so readily accepted in western Christian society and responsible polygyny is not.

It is not really odd
.
Women (please forgive me ladies, I speak academically) are a commodity in every society. They are in demand and the process of dstribution is one of three methodologies.

Either the women are traded among the men, themselves, (patriarchy), or the women, assisted by the mom and the women in general (matriarchy), accomplish the transaction.

The remaining alternative is arranged marriages such as found in India, children designated for one another by family arrangement.

Divorce/remarriage occurs when the society allows women to make as many mistakes in the process as deemed need be to stepping stone finality that satisfies their motivations.

Isa. 3:16 Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: